Could Egwene turn from the light?

[Suttree]

The Tower, from what we know from the books, has done absolutely nothing to figure out how to close the bore. From what we're shown in the books Rand with his new LTT Technology TM and Min through her reading of Herid Fel's books and notes are the only two people actively trying to find a solution to the problem. Honestly, who cares what Egwene thinks?

 

Which is totally missing the point. It has already been stated that he is breaking the seals and will not listern to her. That isn't what the discussion is about. Further only two people trying to find the solution? How would Cads been able to confirm what Min is working on is correct then? You have no idea what certain Browns might now if put on the correct path and Cads obvs has been thinking on the topic.

[MasterAblar]

By Rands own words he purposely antagonized her. He knew which buttons to push and went straight for them. It was a perfect AS manipulation and interestingly enough came right after he fully integrated.

 

But we don't know why he provoked her. Until we learn that we can hardly ascertain whether or not his actions were correct. We know he doesn't want Egwene to oppose him, as he told Nyneave to try and convince Egwene not to.

 

She is aware of it. She also knows he abandoned an entire city to starve after he realized he couldn't use them as "tools". Further he slaughtered his own men in the Damona Mountain Campaign. She has been getting reports from every quarter about Rand's descent.

 

How would she know about it? The only ones who witnessed it are Rand, Min, and Nyneave, and then Cadsuane's group was made aware of it. None of them have been contacting Egwene, nor do they have any reason to spread the word. As for the Damona campaign the rumours Berelain recieved were that the Dragon had defeated the Seanchan. Egwene probably has conflicting reports about that. As for Rand himself, Siuan's reports say he is mistrustful, erratic, tempermental, and arrogant. No reason to believe he's utterly insane. Caution should be exercised but there's no need to treat him like he's going to go on a rampage any second. And yet they had him shielded twice over. Not exactly a show of trust, nor is completely dismissing his idea.

 

But we know she thinks he can be trusted with anything. Even the "fate of the world". That is why I think once he gets everyone on the same page she will fall in line. Again based on what has happend and how he went about things, it would be unrealistic for her to be ok with it. He said he purposely poured "hot oil" ino the WT and this is what he wanted to happen.

 

And yet her actions betray her thoughts. She believes he can be trusted with the fate of the world, but she doesn't even consider the possibility of him being right. Certainly she shouldn't give him the go-ahead to do whatever he wants without explaining himself, but why dismiss his idea completely before his explanation at the FoM?

[thisguy]

The Tower, from what we know from the books, has done absolutely nothing to figure out how to close the bore. From what we're shown in the books Rand with his new LTT Technology TM and Min through her reading of Herid Fel's books and notes are the only two people actively trying to find a solution to the problem. Honestly, who cares what Egwene thinks?

 

Which is totally missing the point. It has already been stated that he is breaking the seals and will not listern to her. That isn't what the discussion is about. Further only two people trying to find the solution? How would Cads been able to confirm what Min is working on is correct then? You have no idea what certain Browns might now if put on the correct path and Cads obvs has been thinking on the topic.

We see nothing of Browns, or anyone else, in the books doing anything. If they were doing something, and they know Rand must be the person at the bore, why would they wait to discuss it with him?????

 

I'm not missing the point. She and the Tower have offered him nothing.

 

Edit to Add: If they do know something, why are they waiting? Is it another AS power play? If that's the case, the world should tear down the Tower. They're not worthy of the prestige and position they hold as AS.

[Suttree]

The Tower, from what we know from the books, has done absolutely nothing to figure out how to close the bore. From what we're shown in the books Rand with his new LTT Technology TM and Min through her reading of Herid Fel's books and notes are the only two people actively trying to find a solution to the problem. Honestly, who cares what Egwene thinks?

 

Which is totally missing the point. It has already been stated that he is breaking the seals and will not listern to her. That isn't what the discussion is about. Further only two people trying to find the solution? How would Cads been able to confirm what Min is working on is correct then? You have no idea what certain Browns might now if put on the correct path and Cads obvs has been thinking on the topic.

We see nothing of Browns, or anyone else, in the books doing anything. If they were doing something, and they know Rand must be the person at the bore, why would they wait to discuss it with him?????

 

I'm not missing the point. She and the Tower have offered him nothing.

 

Because they have no idea what his plan is(especially considering he doesn't either). You can not say they have nothing to contribute if they have no idea what he is working on. The only reason he knows is because an eccentric researcher put him on the right path. He then did not share that path in any detail with the AS. No one is saying Egwene might know better(for some reason this always comes up as something people get all bent about, how dare she think she knows better than Rand!!!) they are saying get everyone on the same page. TG is at hand and the time for subterfuge has passed.

[Damer Sedai]

Note the denial by Egwene. Note the explanation on clearing the rubble - is that not quoting prophecy? THis answer which in the real world is quite inadequate, but in Randland is exactly what any Aes sedai would consider sufficient (in fact it sounds like almost everything that comes out of Moraines mouth in the first 3 books)

 

It most ceratainly isnt't quoting prophecy. It's what Herid fel wrote and is precisely the type of thing most people wouldn't know except for perhaps a few accomplished Browns in the library. Fel was considered eccentric even among the inventors after all.

.

 

You are of course right. I I was confusing that piece of philosophy with the "break what he must break' Borderlander prophecy, which Egwene wouldnt know, and is quite non-specific as well. My apologies, and its used here as an Aes-Sedai like plattitude, similar to "THe wheel weaves as the weave wills". DOesnt really help Egwene does it?

 

As far as 'flippant' goes, Rand is nothing but polite (and mysterious, which can be infuriating too, all will admit). Egwene is the one who demands that he not turn his back on the Amilryn. Also, Egwene wants to talk about bonded sisters, as much as about breaking the seals. Its not like her priorities are all on the final battle.

By Rands own words he purposely antagonized her. He knew which buttons to push and went straight for them. It was a perfect AS manipulation and interestingly enough came right after he fully integrated.

 

We agree, that Rand was manipulative. HE was also serious, truthful and respectful, at least on the surface - all the opposite of flippant. HE was very Aes Sedai like. I suppose I wouldnt like those sort of answers more than any other non-Aes Sedai does, as we see throught out the books, but you would think Aes Sedai would be more used to them... All I am saying is that it was dismissed immediately, and when he seemed determined, Egwene didnt just want more info on this plan... she wanted to move on to other topics. Indicating some dismmissiveness, perhaps... again minor.

 

 

Atrocities? What atrocities has he committed that Egwene is aware of at this point? I must not be remembering right, as the only act bad enough to be called an atrocity on Rand's ledger is Natrin's Barrow, and I didnt think she was aware of this in Ch 2.

She is aware of it. She also knows he abandoned an entire city to starve after he realized he couldn't use them as "tools". Further he slaughtered his own men in the Damona Mountain Campaign. She has been getting reports from every quarter about Rand's descent.

 

Natrin's Barrow occurs on page 572 of TGS. I can find no reference in any of the Egwene Chapters in ther remainder of TGS that she knew. Do you know of one I missed? Furthermore, of the Aes Sedai with Rand, Nynaeve is the only one she is in contact with, is she not? Egwene hadnt been in contact with Nynaeve for months (TOM, A vow, page 205). Also,

 

"He has changed" Nynaeve said "And its a very good thing. Mother... you dont know how bad he grew. There were times I was terrified of him."

TOM, THe Vow, Page 210

 

A mention of how little specifics she knows. I find no specific mention of Natrin's Barrow anwhere else in EgwenePOV or related camps up to this point, and with it being off the beaten track, its unlikely that regular eyes and ears have provided anything reliable. I am not even sure she knows the details of Arad Doman, beyond that he is there: as above she isnt communicating with Nynaeve yet as yet

 

As for the other 2

1. Atrocity is a strong word for what Rand did in BandarEben that implies willful malevolence, implying intentional cruelty.on a massive scale. WHile Rand did a VeryBadThing by leaving Arad Doman in the lurch, and I would even say cowardly, and vile, but it doesnt meet the sniff test. Failure does not qualify as cruel intent, neither for the reader, or for Egwene. Even though Egwene of often disagrees about Rand, Nynaeve, Mat and the rest, I believe that while Egwene's POV informs us that she thinks of him as dangerous, but she doesnt think of Rand as a monster.

2. Yes, I suppose the Demona campaign looks very bad for Rand, from Egwenes point of view. SHe likely would have heard of it, and she cannot know that Rand, while unwise trying anything because of the problems with channeling, didnt intend to harm his people and furthermore had no idea of the problems with Callandor (why would he? Its destines to be used by him in prophecy) until after, when het gets the 411 from Cadsuane. So while we know it was a foolish catastrophe, you are quite right that its looks very bad from the outside. I still dont see Egwenes point of view in TGS or TOM judging him that harshly.

 

Semantics aside (Atrocity is a hot button word for me), I see what you mean - Egwene sees/believes that Rand has done very bad things and that influences how she reacts to his cryptic statements. MAkes sense.

 

Perhaps. I just find it sad that events play out so that Egwene is the Amilryn, someone who knows the core of him so well, and has blanket distrust

of anything he says. Its probably because I really liked the way Egwene was with Rand at the end of TEOTW beginning of TGH, despite knowing he was a male channeler.

 

But we know she thinks he can be trusted with anything. Even the "fate of the world". That is why I think once he gets everyone on the same page she will fall in line. Again based on what has happend and how he went about things, it would be unrealistic for her to be ok with it. He said he purposely poured "hot oil" ino the WT and this is what he wanted to happen.

 

Again, we are so close to agreeing its scary. I am not wondering why Egwene disagrees with breaking the seals, its and extremely justifiable position. I am wondering why we dont see just one sentence about Egwene analyzing other possibilities, including one that Rand might be right. I just dont see Egwenes actions post THe Amilryns Anger informed by this "trust him in the fate of the world" There is some logic for thinking he will figure out the rest (even though I agree, Egwene has a right to be concerned): he cleansed saidin, he has Callendor, he is the chosen one, hes got good people hleping him. Why doesnt she have people double checking Step 1 (ClearTHeRubble) of the plan? Why doesnt she direct the WT to come up with an alternate plan, or at least start the process? I thought AllGrownUP Egwene might handle it different than TSR and TFOH Eggy - we got to see that thoughfullness and maturity when she reunited the WT. I really enjoyed TGS Eggy. Is it a writing choice by BS? IS it Egwenes strong willedness? Or her blind spot since book one in her dealing w/ her TEOTW companions? Dammmit I wanted introspection!

 

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion.

[thisguy]

The Tower, from what we know from the books, has done absolutely nothing to figure out how to close the bore. From what we're shown in the books Rand with his new LTT Technology TM and Min through her reading of Herid Fel's books and notes are the only two people actively trying to find a solution to the problem. Honestly, who cares what Egwene thinks?

 

Which is totally missing the point. It has already been stated that he is breaking the seals and will not listern to her. That isn't what the discussion is about. Further only two people trying to find the solution? How would Cads been able to confirm what Min is working on is correct then? You have no idea what certain Browns might now if put on the correct path and Cads obvs has been thinking on the topic.

We see nothing of Browns, or anyone else, in the books doing anything. If they were doing something, and they know Rand must be the person at the bore, why would they wait to discuss it with him?????

 

I'm not missing the point. She and the Tower have offered him nothing.

 

Because they have no idea what his plan is(especially considering he doesn't either). You can not say they have nothing to contribute if they have no idea what he is working on. The only reason he knows is because an eccentric researcher put him on the right path. He then did not share that path in any detail with the AS. No one is saying Egwene might know better(for some reason this always comes up as something people get all bent about, how dare she think she knows better than Rand!!!) they are saying get everyone on the same page. TG is at hand and the time for subterfuge has passed.

If they have a plan, or an idea, they haven't brought it up. If they have something, they should speak up. They have nothing.

[thisguy]

Rand tells her he's going to break the seals. Tells her she can meet with him to discuss it later. She doesn't want the seals broken, doesn't tell him why she doesn't or why it's a bad idea. He gives her an opportunity to meet with him. And, I wonder if Rand does or does not know what he's going to do. I think RJ might hold some of this from the reader so that the reader is actually surprised once the time comes.

[Suttree]

Note the denial by Egwene. Note the explanation on clearing the rubble - is that not quoting prophecy? THis answer which in the real world is quite inadequate, but in Randland is exactly what any Aes sedai would consider sufficient (in fact it sounds like almost everything that comes out of Moraines mouth in the first 3 books)

 

It most ceratainly isnt't quoting prophecy. It's what Herid fel wrote and is precisely the type of thing most people wouldn't know except for perhaps a few accomplished Browns in the library. Fel was considered eccentric even among the inventors after all.

.

 

You are of course right. I I was confusing that piece of philosophy with the "break what he must break' Borderlander prophecy, which Egwene wouldnt know, and is quite non-specific as well. My apologies, and its used here as an Aes-Sedai like plattitude, similar to "THe wheel weaves as the weave wills". DOesnt really help Egwene does it?

 

As far as 'flippant' goes, Rand is nothing but polite (and mysterious, which can be infuriating too, all will admit). Egwene is the one who demands that he not turn his back on the Amilryn. Also, Egwene wants to talk about bonded sisters, as much as about breaking the seals. Its not like her priorities are all on the final battle.

By Rands own words he purposely antagonized her. He knew which buttons to push and went straight for them. It was a perfect AS manipulation and interestingly enough came right after he fully integrated.

 

We agree, that Rand was manipulative. HE was also serious, truthful and respectful, at least on the surface - all the opposite of flippant. HE was very Aes Sedai like. I suppose I wouldnt like those sort of answers more than any other non-Aes Sedai does, as we see throught out the books, but you would think Aes Sedai would be more used to them... All I am saying is that it was dismissed immediately, and when he seemed determined, Egwene didnt just want more info on this plan... she wanted to move on to other topics. Indicating some dismmissiveness, perhaps... again minor.

 

 

Atrocities? What atrocities has he committed that Egwene is aware of at this point? I must not be remembering right, as the only act bad enough to be called an atrocity on Rand's ledger is Natrin's Barrow, and I didnt think she was aware of this in Ch 2.

She is aware of it. She also knows he abandoned an entire city to starve after he realized he couldn't use them as "tools". Further he slaughtered his own men in the Damona Mountain Campaign. She has been getting reports from every quarter about Rand's descent.

 

Natrin's Barrow occurs on page 572 of TGS. I can find no reference in any of the Egwene Chapters in ther remainder of TGS that she knew. Do you know of one I missed? Furthermore, of the Aes Sedai with Rand, Nynaeve is the only one she is in contact with, is she not? Egwene hadnt been in contact with Nynaeve for months (TOM, A vow, page 205). Also,

 

"He has changed" Nynaeve said "And its a very good thing. Mother... you dont know how bad he grew. There were times I was terrified of him."

TOM, THe Vow, Page 210

 

A mention of how little specifics she knows. I find no specific mention of Natrin's Barrow anwhere else in EgwenePOV or related camps up to this point, and with it being off the beaten track, its unlikely that regular eyes and ears have provided anything reliable. I am not even sure she knows the details of Arad Doman, beyond that he is there: as above she isnt communicating with Nynaeve yet as yet

 

As for the other 2

1. Atrocity is a strong word for what Rand did in BandarEben that implies willful malevolence, implying intentional cruelty.on a massive scale. WHile Rand did a VeryBadThing by leaving Arad Doman in the lurch, and I would even say cowardly, and vile, but it doesnt meet the sniff test. Failure does not qualify as cruel intent, neither for the reader, or for Egwene. Even though Egwene of often disagrees about Rand, Nynaeve, Mat and the rest, I believe that while Egwene's POV informs us that she thinks of him as dangerous, but she doesnt think of Rand as a monster.

2. Yes, I suppose the Demona campaign looks very bad for Rand, from Egwenes point of view. SHe likely would have heard of it, and she cannot know that Rand, while unwise trying anything because of the problems with channeling, didnt intend to harm his people and furthermore had no idea of the problems with Callandor (why would he? Its destines to be used by him in prophecy) until after, when het gets the 411 from Cadsuane. So while we know it was a foolish catastrophe, you are quite right that its looks very bad from the outside. I still dont see Egwenes point of view in TGS or TOM judging him that harshly.

 

Semantics aside (Atrocity is a hot button word for me), I see what you mean - Egwene sees/believes that Rand has done very bad things and that influences how she reacts to his cryptic statements. MAkes sense.

 

Perhaps. I just find it sad that events play out so that Egwene is the Amilryn, someone who knows the core of him so well, and has blanket distrust

of anything he says. Its probably because I really liked the way Egwene was with Rand at the end of TEOTW beginning of TGH, despite knowing he was a male channeler.

 

But we know she thinks he can be trusted with anything. Even the "fate of the world". That is why I think once he gets everyone on the same page she will fall in line. Again based on what has happend and how he went about things, it would be unrealistic for her to be ok with it. He said he purposely poured "hot oil" ino the WT and this is what he wanted to happen.

 

Again, we are so close to agreeing its scary. I am not wondering why Egwene disagrees with breaking the seals, its and extremely justifiable position. I am wondering why we dont see just one sentence about Egwene analyzing other possibilities, including one that Rand might be right. I just dont see Egwenes actions post THe Amilryns Anger informed by this "trust him in the fate of the world" There is some logic for thinking he will figure out the rest (even though I agree, Egwene has a right to be concerned): he cleansed saidin, he has Callendor, he is the chosen one, hes got good people hleping him. Why doesnt she have people double checking Step 1 (ClearTHeRubble) of the plan? Why doesnt she direct the WT to come up with an alternate plan, or at least start the process? I thought AllGrownUP Egwene might handle it different than TSR and TFOH Eggy - we got to see that thoughfullness and maturity when she reunited the WT. I really enjoyed TGS Eggy. Is it a writing choice by BS? IS it Egwenes strong willedness? Or her blind spot since book one in her dealing w/ her TEOTW companions? Dammmit I wanted introspection!

 

Anyway, I appreciate the discussion.

 

Yeah great topic and discussion Damer! Stoked to have another thoughtful posters such yourself here at DM.

 

Real quick on Rand and what he did in Bandar Eben.

 

"Rand, you aren't responsible for this," Min said. "You weren't here to . . ."

 

His pain increased, and she realized she'd said the wrong thing. "Yes," he replied softly, "I wasn't here. I abandoned this city when I saw that I could not use it as the tool I wished it to be.

 

That would seem to mean it was intentional.

 

Rand tells her he's going to break the seals. Tells him she can meet with him to discuss it later. She doesn't want the seals broken, doesn't tell him why she doesn't or why it's a bad idea. He gives her an opportunity to meet with him. And, I wonder if Rand does or does not know what he's going to do. I think RJ might hold some of this from the reader so that the reader is actually surprised once the time comes.

 

 

He said he was breakingthe seals which are at this point the words of a seeming mad man. There is no one in the knonw world except for those who understand Fel's comments that would think it was a good idea on the surface. She said we have to talk and plan. He refused and antagonized her so she would bring everyone to the FoM. It is her duty as Amyrlin to question him at this juncture until he lays out a rational course, even though we as readers understand she is wrong.

 

As for Rand we know he doesn't know what to do. He told us as much when he says to Min...

 

ToM

I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

We know that Fel put him on the right path, we also know is missing something vital and knows his last plan will not work.

[thisguy]

To be quite honest, I have absolutely no problem with what he did. He told them that the rubble must be cleared and that both parts of the power must be used. Chances are, none of them know a thing if they do not believe the seals must be broken. He gave them a month to do what they can to research or do whatever they can to figure out a solution. What good would hanging around there be? To appease them? She knows what he knows, unless there's more that he knows the we as the reader do not know.

[Damer Sedai]

Yeah great topic and discussion Damer! Stoked to have another thoughtful posters such yourself here at DM.

 

 

Thanks, and back at ya. I am really impressed with the quality of posters here

 

Real quick on Rand and what he did in Bandar Eben.

 

"Rand, you aren't responsible for this," Min said. "You weren't here to . . ."

 

His pain increased, and she realized she'd said the wrong thing. "Yes," he replied softly, "I wasn't here. I abandoned this city when I saw that I could not use it as the tool I wished it to be.

 

That would seem to mean it was intentional.

 

Yeah passively intentional, and again I am not arguing that he was in anyway in the right. He stepped in, mucked around, and abandoned them. But he tried to do good, failed, and gave up when he didnt have easy answers and self rationailzed he had better things to do. But atrocity implies intentional malice; i.e. he wanted chaos and starvation on a mass scale. Having spent a little time in certain areas of Africa, I think atrocity as a desciptor is a magnitiude higher than anything Rand has done. That is Age of LEgendsSemirhage level stuff.

 

there I go with semantics

 

Keep on fighting the good fight!

[thisguy]

Another thing that occurred to me, Rand has at least 30 AS under him, another 51 at the BT bonded to the 'good' Ashaman. There are around 1000 AS. He has almost a tenth of them sworn to him or bonded to him through proxy, plus several more (Cad and crew and Berelaine's advisor) on his side. Basically, 1/10th of the Tower is with him and none of them have once mentioned anything about how to seal the Bore - aside from Cadsuane in reply to Min.

 

They've had millennia to think on this. Literally. They offer nothing.

[Suttree]

They've had millennia to think on this. Literally. They offer nothing.

 

You are confusing them have a fully thought out plan(and really, why would anyone expect people in the current age to have one when LTT couldn't even do it right) with AS possibly being able to offer a hint once they knew what he was looking for and researching. That is the key. Share Fel's info and books and who knows what possible materials are in the WT library that could supplement Min's work. Again get everyone on the same page and utilyze every resource at your disposal. Maybe you misunderstood where I was going with that because I never suggested the AS should be able to come up with something on their own without Fel's knowledge. That would be even more unrealistic given they have no idea how to start then Min coming up with the idea.

[thisguy]

They've had millennia to think on this. Literally. They offer nothing.

 

You are confusing them have a fully thought out plan(and really, why would anyone expect people in the current age to have one when LTT couldn't even do it right) with AS possibly being able to offer a hint once they knew what he was looking for and researching. That is the key. Share Fel's info and books and who knows what possible materials are in the WT library that could supplement Min's work. Again get everyone on the same page and utilyze every resource at your disposal. Maybe you misunderstood where I was going with that because I never suggested the AS should be able to come up with something on their own without Fel's knowledge. That would be even more unrealistic given they have no idea how to start then Min coming up with the idea.

That is true. It's a possibility that if he shared all the knowledge accumulated they might come up with something. I don't disagree with that. Personally, there are reasons within the story (that I can think of) that this was not done and one or two reasons outside of the story (writer's reasons).

The BA could be one. Rand doesn't want to give any part of his plan to the Tower because there are still elements within that he cannot trust. He already has his own AS who could help him. Also, even though it's not mentioned within the book that I remember, maybe he's trying to bring them to him. If I remember correctly, they mention afterwards being frozen (the AS in the room) and surprised Egwene wasn't. That seems to be something more than Ta'veren-ism working for Rand. Unless Rand is using it somewhat consciously. It's possible that this was foreshadowing or used by Rand as he didn't want to get stuck in the Tower for too long. The man has things to do. As far as he's concerned, he has a month to live.

As a writer- the story could be presented this way to build suspense and not give away the ending.

 

Edit to add: Personally, seeing how distrustful of each other the AS have been, I don't find fault with Rand not sharing his ideas with all of them.

[MountaineerWV]

Suttree said:

 

She is aware of it. She also knows he abandoned an entire city to starve after he realized he couldn't use them as "tools". Further he slaughtered his own men in the Damona Mountain Campaign. She has been getting reports from every quarter about Rand's descent.

I wanted to comment on this.

 

Remember when Egwene's rebel army was moving north? There was a scene in which her soldiers were moving food from a farm to a wagon, with the farmers huddling together and a young boy glaring with fear and anger. Sure, Egwene was paying for the food - but paying a price Egwene set. Maybe it was Gareth's Quatermaster, but that is irrelevant - it is Egwene's Army. She is levying a tax on people in the way of food, at a time when food is scarce.

 

In this instance, Egwene knowingly taxed and abandoned these particular farmers, and probably many more, to possible death and starvation because it suited her.

 

If Rand has a black mark against him because of leaving a city to fend for itself, then Egwene has a black mark for leaving entire regions of two countries to fend for themselves.

[thisguy]

Suttree said:

 

She is aware of it. She also knows he abandoned an entire city to starve after he realized he couldn't use them as "tools". Further he slaughtered his own men in the Damona Mountain Campaign. She has been getting reports from every quarter about Rand's descent.

I wanted to comment on this.

 

Remember when Egwene's rebel army was moving north? There was a scene in which her soldiers were moving food from a farm to a wagon, with the farmers huddling together and a young boy glaring with fear and anger. Sure, Egwene was paying for the food - but paying a price Egwene set. Maybe it was Gareth's Quatermaster, but that is irrelevant - it is Egwene's Army. She is levying a tax on people in the way of food, at a time when food is scarce.

 

In this instance, Egwene knowingly taxed and abandoned these particular farmers, and probably many more, to possible death and starvation because it suited her.

 

If Rand has a black mark against him because of leaving a city to fend for itself, then Egwene has a black mark for leaving entire regions of two countries to fend for themselves.

Not to mention have the Andorans (finally got that righ) coming into Murandy and changing the borderline. Also, the king of Murandy gathering more troops which could have sparked war with the Murandian nobles.

 

This is my major problem with the AS, in general; their hypocrisy.

[BFG]

I have two questions on this..

 

1) what is Min's theory?

 

and

 

2) how did Cads confirm it?

 

I don't think anyone has answered yet, Mins theory was that Callandor is flawed beyond what is known (i.e. beyond needing two women and a man linked), Cadsuane confirmed it (and while doing called out another sister for being rude to Min).

 

Atleast Min with her Bachelors degree in waitressing and her Masters in Pattern Viewing has spend months on this matter. All the Aes Sedai would have to start at zero.

 

That was quite good...

 

+1

 

The Tower, from what we know from the books, has done absolutely nothing to figure out how to close the bore. From what we're shown in the books Rand with his new LTT Technology TM and Min through her reading of Herid Fel's books and notes are the only two people actively trying to find a solution to the problem. Honestly, who cares what Egwene thinks?

 

Which is totally missing the point. It has already been stated that he is breaking the seals and will not listern to her. That isn't what the discussion is about. Further only two people trying to find the solution? How would Cads been able to confirm what Min is working on is correct then? You have no idea what certain Browns might now if put on the correct path and Cads obvs has been thinking on the topic.

 

Except that in the book it doesn't say that he will not listen to her, he says that he doesn't have time to talk now, but they can talk at the FoM. Yes, he could have stayed and between them they could have debated for the month and got nothing done, but for some reason he feels urgency, Since we don't really get a pov that explains this it's impossible for us to explain it, but given his current level of Zen (that is confirmed by Nyn later) it's reasonable to assume he knows more than us right now. Given that sense of urgency there's a lot to do.

 

You could also argue that his presence there would be a bad thing, eventually Eg would distrust everything that happened as his Taveran nature.

 

I guess my views with regards to the library are twofold. Either AS sisters haven't looked, which I find hard to believe, todays lot may not be up to much generally, but there are competent sisters amongst them. Cads knew about the flaw before Min worked it out, implying she's spent time reading through the books, so I'm not sure what else can be gleaned for her there. Or AS sisters have looked and haven't found anything, so why spend more time there looking? I also don't think that that's the place to send Min to look. Scenes from the Tower show that things haven't really changed. The only way most sisters would help is with either Cads or Eg looking over their shoulders, seems a waste of their time.

 

Eg could have put sisters working on it independently and may well have done, there's a meeting immediately after Rands departure that we know nothing of, but so far we know nothing about it.

[Suttree]

I guess my views with regards to the library are twofold. Either AS sisters haven't looked, which I find hard to believe, todays lot may not be up to much generally, but there are competent sisters amongst them. Cads knew about the flaw before Min worked it out, implying she's spent time reading through the books, so I'm not sure what else can be gleaned for her there. Or AS sisters have looked and haven't found anything, so why spend more time there looking?

 

But none of them have access to Fel's info. That is the key. Without that it's hunting a needle in the hay stack.

[thisguy]

I guess my views with regards to the library are twofold. Either AS sisters haven't looked, which I find hard to believe, todays lot may not be up to much generally, but there are competent sisters amongst them. Cads knew about the flaw before Min worked it out, implying she's spent time reading through the books, so I'm not sure what else can be gleaned for her there. Or AS sisters have looked and haven't found anything, so why spend more time there looking?

 

But none of them have access to Fel's info. That is the key. Without that it's hunting a needle in the hay stack.

If we just got by what the reader knows from the books, they know exactly as much as Rand; the 'rubble' must be removed, both sides of the Power must be used. Even with knowing that, Egwene thinks he's nuts.

 

Edit to add: and, like I said, the entire organization is compromised.

[BFG]

I guess my views with regards to the library are twofold. Either AS sisters haven't looked, which I find hard to believe, todays lot may not be up to much generally, but there are competent sisters amongst them. Cads knew about the flaw before Min worked it out, implying she's spent time reading through the books, so I'm not sure what else can be gleaned for her there. Or AS sisters have looked and haven't found anything, so why spend more time there looking?

 

But none of them have access to Fel's info. That is the key. Without that it's hunting a needle in the hay stack.

 

Except that Rands just given it to them.

A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed

Admittedly he doesn't say that it came from somebody else, but that's essentially what Fel worked out. The WT knows, or should know, that once the Bore is opened it will take time for him to come out, so that they will have time to act.

[Suttree]

I guess my views with regards to the library are twofold. Either AS sisters haven't looked, which I find hard to believe, todays lot may not be up to much generally, but there are competent sisters amongst them. Cads knew about the flaw before Min worked it out, implying she's spent time reading through the books, so I'm not sure what else can be gleaned for her there. Or AS sisters have looked and haven't found anything, so why spend more time there looking?

 

But none of them have access to Fel's info. That is the key. Without that it's hunting a needle in the hay stack.

If we just got by what the reader knows from the books, they know exactly as much as Rand; the 'rubble' must be removed, both sides of the Power must be used. Even with knowing that, Egwene thinks he's nuts.

 

That is not true at all. They have little idea what that cryptic phrase means whithout any perspective or the proper books. IUt is one thing to know what must be done an another entirely to see the materials Min is working with. Remember Fel was eccentric even among all those inventors. He shared nothing of what he is working on and the AS are completly in the dark on it.

 

As for Egwene there is no rational being in the entire world that wouldn't have thought he was nuts based on the first meeting. Again it would be totally unrealistic to think anything else when you take what she has been hearing of him and combine it with talk of breaking the seals.

 

Suttree said:

 

She is aware of it. She also knows he abandoned an entire city to starve after he realized he couldn't use them as "tools". Further he slaughtered his own men in the Damona Mountain Campaign. She has been getting reports from every quarter about Rand's descent.

I wanted to comment on this.

 

Remember when Egwene's rebel army was moving north? There was a scene in which her soldiers were moving food from a farm to a wagon, with the farmers huddling together and a young boy glaring with fear and anger. Sure, Egwene was paying for the food - but paying a price Egwene set. Maybe it was Gareth's Quatermaster, but that is irrelevant - it is Egwene's Army. She is levying a tax on people in the way of food, at a time when food is scarce.

 

In this instance, Egwene knowingly taxed and abandoned these particular farmers, and probably many more, to possible death and starvation because it suited her.

 

If Rand has a black mark against him because of leaving a city to fend for itself, then Egwene has a black mark for leaving entire regions of two countries to fend for themselves.

 

Those two things are not really all that close to being similar. First I would have to see a chapter and quote to really comment but from what you say and what we know of Egwene she would pay a full price and we have zero mention of anyone starving because of her army. We would ahve heard something if that was the case. Further paying for food is a far cry from purposely abandoning a city to die once you realized you could not "use them as a tool".

 

As for Murandy the border between them and Andor has been shifting for as long as those two countries have existed. It's not as if the AS did something new.

[thisguy]

They have the basic concept, and Egwene vehemently disagrees with the core of it.

 

They are compromised, so why should Rand tell the Tower his idea - whether he has a complete one or not?

[Suttree]

They are compromised, so why should Rand tell the Tower his idea - whether he has a complete one or not?

 

Telling some Browns to assist Cads and Min is far different then telling the WT. Further they do not have the basic concept. We the phras means nothing with no perspective on the materials and LTT knowledge they are working off. Again it is totally unrealsitic to think they could come up with a plan, although they could be an invaluable resource which has been my point all along. Who knows though, one of those Browns could be BA so maybe it isn't worth the risk.

[thisguy]

They are compromised, so why should Rand tell the Tower his idea - whether he has a complete one or not?

 

Telling some Browns to assist Cads and Min is far different then telling the WT. Further they do not have the basic concept. We the phras means nothing with no perspective on the materials and LTT knowledge they are working off. Again it is totally unrealsitic to think they could come up with a plan, although they could be an invaluable resource which has been my point all along. Who knows though, one of those Browns could be BA so maybe it isn't worth the risk.

The first part of the entire process is clearing away the rubble, correct? She already vehemently disagrees - this 19 year old girl who didn't start to think about this until last week.

As for the Browns - some of them are BA. And, when Rand came in to talk to Egwene, who was he in front of? 13 sitters, correct. That's what I mean by the Tower. So, why would he spill the beans in front of them?

 

Edit to add: Rand says 'his' mistake the last time he sealed the bore was not to use women as well as men. For all we know the counterstrike was possible because only saidin was used to seal the bore.

[MasterAblar]

They are compromised, so why should Rand tell the Tower his idea - whether he has a complete one or not?

 

Telling some Browns to assist Cads and Min is far different then telling the WT. Further they do not have the basic concept. We the phras means nothing with no perspective on the materials and LTT knowledge they are working off. Again it is totally unrealsitic to think they could come up with a plan, although they could be an invaluable resource which has been my point all along. Who knows though, one of those Browns could be BA so maybe it isn't worth the risk.

The first part of the entire process is clearing away the rubble, correct? She already vehemently disagrees - this 19 year old girl who didn't start to think about this until last week.

As for the Browns - some of them are BA. And, when Rand came in to talk to Egwene, who was he in front of? 13 sitters, correct. That's what I mean by the Tower. So, why would he spill the beans in front of them?

 

Her initial opposition is understandable considering the circumstances and what Rand proposed. It's her continued refusal to consider that he may be right, or even that he may be on to something, even after Nyneave and Elayne have been shown to not really be on her side on the matter, and learning that Rand had considerably changed from what he was like before, that is the problem. And she interpreted the Wise Ones' saying they would talk to Rand about it to mean that they were opposed, as well as Darlin agreeing to question him. Sure she shouldn't give him carte blanche but why dismiss his idea completely, especially when others are not?

[thisguy]

They are compromised, so why should Rand tell the Tower his idea - whether he has a complete one or not?

 

Telling some Browns to assist Cads and Min is far different then telling the WT. Further they do not have the basic concept. We the phras means nothing with no perspective on the materials and LTT knowledge they are working off. Again it is totally unrealsitic to think they could come up with a plan, although they could be an invaluable resource which has been my point all along. Who knows though, one of those Browns could be BA so maybe it isn't worth the risk.

The first part of the entire process is clearing away the rubble, correct? She already vehemently disagrees - this 19 year old girl who didn't start to think about this until last week.

As for the Browns - some of them are BA. And, when Rand came in to talk to Egwene, who was he in front of? 13 sitters, correct. That's what I mean by the Tower. So, why would he spill the beans in front of them?

 

Her initial opposition is understandable considering the circumstances and what Rand proposed. It's her continued refusal to consider that he may be right, or even that he may be on to something, even after Nyneave and Elayne have been shown to not really be on her side on the matter, and learning that Rand had considerably changed from what he was like before, that is the problem. And she interpreted the Wise Ones' saying they would talk to Rand about it to mean that they were opposed, as well as Darlin agreeing to question him. Sure she shouldn't give him carte blanche but why dismiss his idea completely, especially when others are not?

I do not disagree. The way I see it, Rand gave her two general parts of what must be done:

1. break the seals to start fresh;

2. use both halves of the power

 

She has a month to respond. If she realizes that she may have overreacted, she now has the chance to come to him or send an envoy. I really don't think Rand did anything wrong in the encounter.