The Horn of valere and the dragon

[lolguy26]

What we know of the horn.

The Horn's origins are uncertain, but it was lost to the world and faded into the realm of myth for hundreds of years when the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends hid it beneath theEye of the World deep within the Blight,along with the banner of Lews Therin Telamon and one of the seals to the Dark One's prison, during the Breaking, there it was guarded by the Green Man, Someshta, the last of the Nym, until the time of its use.

​

 

I'm sorry if its been discussed before but as i remember it, after mat blows the horn and all the heroes are there and arthur hawing says

 

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

so that means the horn is linked to the banner of the dragon

 

but he also says (arthur hawking)

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern.

 

 

So that means in ages before the dragon must have been on the dark one's side.

 

So any one want to add something more??

[b3arz3rg3r]

What we know of the horn.

The Horn's origins are uncertain, but it was lost to the world and faded into the realm of myth for hundreds of years when the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends hid it beneath theEye of the World deep within the Blight,along with the banner of Lews Therin Telamon and one of the seals to the Dark One's prison, during the Breaking, there it was guarded by the Green Man, Someshta, the last of the Nym, until the time of its use.

​

 

I'm sorry if its been discussed before but as i remember it, after mat blows the horn and all the heroes are there and arthur hawing says

 

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

so that means the horn is linked to the banner of the dragon

 

but he also says (arthur hawking)

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern.

 

 

So that means in ages before the dragon must have been on the dark one's side.

 

So any one want to add something more??

 

That's a false conclusion. Hawkwing doesn't say that he has fought beside and against the Dragon when called by the Horn only that he has. So many of those times could just have happened when both Dragon and Hawkwing were living some of their countless lives. When LTT was alive so were Birgitte and Gaidal, therefore Hawkwing may have been alive during other Dragon incarnations for all we know.

 

Moreover there are the Mirrors of the Wheel. The Horn is probably a fixture which exists in every world, so there should be a world in which let's say Turak blew the Horn instead of Mat for example. It's probably a pale mirror image of the world because the odds of that happening would be very low, but there would be a Horn and there would be a Dragon and the Heroes would get called to those worlds just as they are called to the "real" world.

[lolguy26]

Well i suppose i should have said maybe, but regarding the part about

That's a false conclusion. Hawkwing doesn't say that he has fought beside and against the Dragon when called by the Horn only that he has.

 

 

Well if you read back to chapter 47 (the Grave is no bar to my call) The Great hunt, After the heroes are there mat says

Mat gaped at them as they reined in before him and the others. “Is this . . . ? Is this all of you?” They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had known that they would be. Hurin’s mouth hung open; his eyes bulged almost out of his head. “It takes more than bravery to bind a man to the Horn.” Artur Hawkwing’s voice was deep and carrying, a voice used to giving commands. “Or a woman,” Birgitte said sharply. “Or a woman,” Hawkwing agreed. “Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh.” He was looking at Rand

 

So that means Rand is part of the heroes (i guess)

 

but to defend that my claim might not be entirely wrong

 

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more.

 

he said i faced you many times and used LTT name not Rand(even thought he already told them his name)

 

so i guess i might be wrong but as ishamel(as Ba'alzamon) put it the dragon and the dark one have fought thousands of times and sometimes the dragon was under the influence and sometimes he was victorious

 

*i cant remember exactly in which book that's in but im sure its in both the first and second*

 

anyway i wasnt saying that hawking fought the dragon, i just want to prove that once the dragon did go to the darkside

[joeron bigelow]

hmmm...dark dragon? Not sure I can support that. But this brings up a question to me, hope you dont mind me tagging here...

 

Has the dragon been reborn as many times as Birgitte and Gaidal? The way Birgitte has all those stories about her in various reincarnations, but theres only one Dragon story.

 

Thats pretty much why i cant support a dark dragon.

[lolguy26]

well joe everyone's welcome and birgitte remembers because she she came from Tel'aran'rhiod she was torn for the wheel, so remembers but the more you follow her story you can see that she seems to be forgetting all her previous lives, and i remember that i read that when rand becomes super rand(somewhere around the ToM) he remembers every lifetime he *as in Dragon* lived.

[Zorlon]

The Dragon certainly has served the Shadow in past lives. Jordan has said so plainly.

 

Also, it is strongly implied, the soul commonly born to become the Dragon(Rand's) is not the only soul which might become the Dragon in any given age.

[lolguy26]

thank you Zorlon for proving my point *sortoff*

[joeron bigelow]

hmm...maybe im not on the same page. What i meant was that there are (or seem to be) countless gleeman tales of birgittes past lives.

 

but thom doesnt sing any tales of LTT's past lives. do you see my point there?

 

80 tales to 1.

 

So maybe ok there was a dark "dragon," but LTT was only reborn once? where are all the long winded people now to set me straight?

[Suttree]

We know the Dragon Soul has turned for fact. RJ said Ishy was not lying about that. Ishy and Rands soul are linked a la Birgitte and Gaidal and have fought their battle countless times before...

 

To the point above however Rands soul is the Dragon Soul. The position does not cycle out to others.

[lolguy26]

I think that's because the dragon is only born when the dark one has been freed or will be freed

[condonmc]

What we know of the horn.

The Horn's origins are uncertain, but it was lost to the world and faded into the realm of myth for hundreds of years when the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends hid it beneath theEye of the World deep within the Blight,along with the banner of Lews Therin Telamon and one of the seals to the Dark One's prison, during the Breaking, there it was guarded by the Green Man, Someshta, the last of the Nym, until the time of its use.

​

 

I'm sorry if its been discussed before but as i remember it, after mat blows the horn and all the heroes are there and arthur hawing says

 

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

so that means the horn is linked to the banner of the dragon

 

but he also says (arthur hawking)

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern.

 

 

So that means in ages before the dragon must have been on the dark one's side.

 

So any one want to add something more??

Good post...I bet AMoL will clarify this .....

[lolguy26]

I hope it will, but i read somewhere on DM that RJ isnt gonna give us all the answers

[condonmc]

I hope it will, but i read somewhere on DM that RJ isnt gonna give us all the answers

I know...and it will be the death of me...

[joeron bigelow]

Maybe I'm dense - i just dont get it.

 

If LTT was spun out and reborn several times - why does Rand only have LTT memories?

 

Birgitte has more than one lifetime of memories.

 

Shouldn't Rand have Joe Schmoe memories?

[Suttree]

Maybe I'm dense - i just dont get it.

 

If LTT was spun out and reborn several times - why does Rand only have LTT memories?

 

Because Birgitte wasn't reborn normally. She was ripped out of Tar which for all we know is unique. Further Rand did have all his soul's memories during the epiphany on DM. They didn't stick with him however and he is only fully integrated now with his immediate past life.

[lolguy26]

Dude I've been trying to explain I think that the dragon(LTT)is only born when he is needed to face the dark one, where as birgitte is born with everyturning of the wheel (or something like that)

[Alonin]

when hawking said to rand that they had fought eachother countless times before, it doesn't mean that they were all shadow dragons. In a basic conflict in some other age, they could both be born but be on opposite sides of the conflict.

 

Now for joeron, in past ages, the battle isn't exactly the same So things might not play out exactly, and LTT might not have been called the Dragon in the past. That could be why Birgitte never mentioned past "dragons." Also, I'm currently on KoD on my re-read and it is mentioned that birgitte doesn't really remember anything before the founding of the White Tower.

[lolguy26]

Well you could be right about that, but what about the dragon, I think he is spun by the wheel of time when he needed(eg.the 2nd age digging of the bore 3rd age rand fighting the DO)....

[Suttree]

 

Well you could be right about that, but what about the dragon, I think he is spun by the wheel of time when he needed(eg.the 2nd age digging of the bore 3rd age rand fighting the DO)....

 

The "Dragon" was LTT's political title, hence Rand being the Dragon Reborn. The title did not necesarily exist in other ages although that soul is the Champion of the Light which is spun out time and again to face Ishy's soul.

Interview: Oct 22nd, 1998

 

TPOD Signing Report - Pam Basham (Paraphrased)

Pam Basham

 

 

Regarding the Dragon and the Dragon Reborn (and Graendal's thoughts about Ishamael's musings):

"Is this soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?"

Robert Jordan

 

This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I am not sure I understand all the points made in this discussion, but I will answer to the best of my ability.

 

Rand's soul is spun out when the pattern needs it, not just in the 2nd and 3rd age to fight the DO. RJ has said that it is spun out in non-dragon incarnation. During these times you might find conflict with Hawkwing. It is also possible Hawkwings soul could be spun out to counter a dark Dragon. It has not happened or is not clear it has happened in a way that the Horn was sounded in order for Hawkwing and the others to fight a dark dragon. Why? Because of the RJ comment that this would cause a rift in the pattern.

[BFG]

Dude I've been trying to explain I think that the dragon(LTT)is only born when he is needed to face the dark one, where as birgitte is born with everyturning of the wheel (or something like that)

 

I like this,

I am not sure I understand all the points made in this discussion, but I will answer to the best of my ability.

 

Rand's soul is spun out when the pattern needs it, not just in the 2nd and 3rd age to fight the DO. RJ has said that it is spun out in non-dragon incarnation. During these times you might find conflict with Hawkwing. It is also possible Hawkwings soul could be spun out to counter a dark Dragon. It has not happened or is not clear it has happened in a way that the Horn was sounded in order for Hawkwing and the others to fight a dark dragon. Why? Because of the RJ comment that this would cause a rift in the pattern.

 

To combine the two posts above, the Dragons soul is reborn multiple times, but he only lives extroardinary lives when fighting the DO, hence the only stories are when he was LTT? Birgette and Gaidal are spun out as often, but their souls are always drawn to adventures that are worthy of stories. Birgette does say that there have been more lives that there are no tales of.

Maybe, anyway?

 

To throw in a new question...

 

 

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

They seem to need three things to follow, the Dragon, the banner and the horn. So if a dark friend blew the horn, but had neither the Dragon or the banner, would they mill about aimlessly, fight for the horn-blower, or find the Dragon?

 

Edited to add, pre Mat blowing the horn, obviously

[Mr Ares]

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

They seem to need three things to follow, the Dragon, the banner and the horn. So if a dark friend blew the horn, but had neither the Dragon or the banner, would they mill about aimlessly, fight for the horn-blower, or find the Dragon?

There was a requirement for Horn, Dragon and Banner at Falme. There is no real indication that these things are always needed - it could be just a one time requirement. It was needed then to announce the Dragon. So if a Drakfriend blew the Horn, and there were no further requirements, they should be able to command the Heroes.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Well no, that was not quite what I was saying. Rand's soul is not spun out that often. The last time was as LTT, while Birgitte has been spun out many times in the last 3000 years (Cain as well). As for other heroes we do not know how often they get spun out.

[lolguy26]

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

They seem to need three things to follow, the Dragon, the banner and the horn. So if a dark friend blew the horn, but had neither the Dragon or the banner, would they mill about aimlessly, fight for the horn-blower, or find the Dragon?

There was a requirement for Horn, Dragon and Banner at Falme. There is no real indication that these things are always needed - it could be just a one time requirement. It was needed then to announce the Dragon. So if a Drakfriend blew the Horn, and there were no further requirements, they should be able to command the Heroes.

 

actually im 100% sure that hawkings says something about that,

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.” Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.

 

so that suggest that for atleast this age(or champion of the light vs DO war) all three must be required so this time the horn is directly associated with the dragon, but this raises another question, what would happen if ,as some of theories say that maybe rand will fight in the BT , then the horn would be useless ,as they have the horn maybe, the banner but no dragon, so they still would be held back

[Mr Ares]

The Great Hunt

“Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him. “Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner.

 

They seem to need three things to follow, the Dragon, the banner and the horn. So if a dark friend blew the horn, but had neither the Dragon or the banner, would they mill about aimlessly, fight for the horn-blower, or find the Dragon?

There was a requirement for Horn, Dragon and Banner at Falme. There is no real indication that these things are always needed - it could be just a one time requirement. It was needed then to announce the Dragon. So if a Drakfriend blew the Horn, and there were no further requirements, they should be able to command the Heroes.

 

actually im 100% sure that hawkings says something about that,

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.” Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.

 

so that suggest that for atleast this age(or champion of the light vs DO war) all three must be required so this time the horn is directly associated with the dragon, but this raises another question, what would happen if ,as some of theories say that maybe rand will fight in the BT , then the horn would be useless ,as they have the horn maybe, the banner but no dragon, so they still would be held back

Proves my point. "Weave of this moment is set." That one time, all were needed. Any other? No evidence of a requirement.