The Fate of Padan Fain

[Entreri]

One Power, True Power will certainly affect Fain. At the same time, there is no way the TP will be able to block off Fain's power. Fain's power is nothing like the TP or OP.

 

Fain will be able to drain the life force out of anything, even SH (Gholam, T-1000 Darkhounds etc). Most likely outcome of such a battle is a double KO (Fain vs. SH).

 

Moridin, Mordeth... King Arthur was killed by Mordred. Two men were lying in a field of battle with rows and row of Trollocs, both appear to be death (one of Min's visions)....

[Elisaroth]

can fain approach rand now that he make dark friends blind ... i know hes different but still hes soul is corrupted like dark friends just more. If fain learn that moridin is Ishmael there is big chance fain go after him.

[thisguy]

There are a number of assumptions in this thread that I can't, frankly, understand.

 

How can anyone quantify the taint on saidin or the evil at Shadar Logoth? How could we begin to compare the two? Moreover, it is beyond the point. We know the two evils attract and repel one another. We also know that the Bore could continue to exist and be patched over. Why is it so hard to imagine that another patch could be in order only made stronger by the use of saidin and saidar? If Fain is used to keep the Dark One at bay (i.e repelling his power) while a patch is being made, isn't that a sufficient "buffer" to keep stop a counter-stroke against saidin/saidar?

 

Also, why assume "when he gets put into the Dark One's prison the DO will crush him?" The Dark One's own energies are negated by the evil of Shadar Logoth. Are we to assume that fact goes away once Fain is trapped?

If the DO is the equal of the creator, how can Fain be as powerful as the DO? That would mean Fain is one of the 3 most powerful forces in the Universe.

I could understand using Mashadar somehow to slow down the DO's entrance into the world, or to put a buffer between the OP and the DO, but if he's as powerful as the DO.... it's pretty crappy.

[ArveduiEreinion]

There are a number of assumptions in this thread that I can't, frankly, understand.

 

How can anyone quantify the taint on saidin or the evil at Shadar Logoth? How could we begin to compare the two? Moreover, it is beyond the point. We know the two evils attract and repel one another. We also know that the Bore could continue to exist and be patched over. Why is it so hard to imagine that another patch could be in order only made stronger by the use of saidin and saidar? If Fain is used to keep the Dark One at bay (i.e repelling his power) while a patch is being made, isn't that a sufficient "buffer" to keep stop a counter-stroke against saidin/saidar?

 

Also, why assume "when he gets put into the Dark One's prison the DO will crush him?" The Dark One's own energies are negated by the evil of Shadar Logoth. Are we to assume that fact goes away once Fain is trapped?

If the DO is the equal of the creator, how can Fain be as powerful as the DO? That would mean Fain is one of the 3 most powerful forces in the Universe.

I could understand using Mashadar somehow to slow down the DO's entrance into the world, or to put a buffer between the OP and the DO, but if he's as powerful as the DO.... it's pretty crappy.

 

I think the problem with your logic is that you are caught up on comparative power levels. The evil of Shadar Logoth, embodied in Fain, attracts and (key word here) repels the evil energy of the Dark One. We know that Shai'tan exists outside of the Pattern. In the Age of Legends, there was a "thinness" to the Pattern that allowed the Dark One to be sensed. My thought is that the evil of Shadar Logoth could act as a seal within that thinness (or a buffer, whatever you want to call it). In my mind, it would rather be like the taint on saidin.

 

I think you could challenge my theory but I don't see "is Fain as powerful as the DO" as being adequate. You might say, taking the cleansing of the source as an example, that the Dark One could someone direct enough of his energy against the Fain Seal so as to destroy it. Of course, sticking to the analogy, the energy the Dark One directed against the Fain Seal would also be destroyed. However, maybe the Dark One is like Asmodean in the sense that it wouldn't be willing to risk harm to itself to beak the seal. Another way to challenge it might be to ask how the construction of the Fain Seal would work. Anyway, those questions get to the nature of the forces we are talking about.

[thisguy]

As I said, I can see Mash/Fain being used as a buffer but there would have to be the OP on top to actually seal the Bore. Fain would be dogmeat. The Taint was like a drop of the DO's power. AND, in the end that drop eradicated Shadar Logoth. I stick to the idea that it might be used as a buffer to stop the DO's counterstrike. You asked, how do we compare the two? That's why I'm comparing. As per RJ, the DO is the Creator's opposite. Anything within creation can be utterly destroyed without a memory by the Creator. Same with the DO. That's how I quantify it.

 

I'll agree Mash can be used as a buffer.

 

However, as per RJ, Fain has sidestepped the pattern and is something new. That leads me to believe, the Bore could be sealed without him - completely. It was sealed completely before. So, he shouldn't (Fain) even be needed in its sealing now.

[ArveduiEreinion]

As I said, I can see Mash/Fain being used as a buffer but there would have to be the OP on top to actually seal the Bore. Fain would be dogmeat. The Taint was like a drop of the DO's power. AND, in the end that drop eradicated Shadar Logoth. I stick to the idea that it might be used as a buffer to stop the DO's counterstrike. You asked, how do we compare the two? That's why I'm comparing. As per RJ, the DO is the Creator's opposite. Anything within creation can be utterly destroyed without a memory by the Creator. Same with the DO. That's how I quantify it.

 

I'll agree Mash can be used as a buffer.

 

However, as per RJ, Fain has sidestepped the pattern and is something new. That leads me to believe, the Bore could be sealed without him - completely. It was sealed completely before. So, he shouldn't (Fain) even be needed in its sealing now.

 

Clearly, the Bore can be sealed (as an untorn Pattern) without the need for Fain. That doesn't mean Fain can't be used in some manner to make the seal/re-weaving of the Pattern better this time around. So far, I don't think we disagree.

 

However, where you lose me is in the attempt to quantify the power of the Dark One and the effect of that power against the evil of Shadar Logoth. What we saw with the cleansing of saidin was the attraction of all the Taint on saidin by the evil of Shadar Logoth. The Taint didn't go anywhere: it remained constrained by the evil of Shadar Logoth. How much of the Dark One's energy was in the Taint? Certainly, less than the energy necessary to embody the Dark One. How much exactly, though? Who knows.

 

So, my point is this: it's pointless to compare 100% of the Dark One's energy against 100% of the Creator's energy against 100% of Shadar Logoth's energy. What matters is the nature of the two forces we are comparing. The Dark One's energy is attracted to and repulsed by the evil of Shadar Logoth. I think Fain could somehow be forced into the Pattern (in an analogy to a physical place though we know it doesn't exactly work like that) and the Pattern could otherwise heal itself or be healed once the Dark One's energy is no longer attempting to enlarge the Bore.

 

Where we depart in thought is that whether the Dark One could then destroy Fain/the evil of Shadar Logoth. I don't think so because his energy would be repulsed by Fain or, in doing so, the Dark One would have to accept some destruction of it's own energy. Why not wait until the next turning of the Wheel and the hope that somehow someone else will do something about it?

[Wool-headed lummox]

The Dark One's energy is attracted to and repulsed by the evil of Shadar Logoth

Attracted and repulsed at the same time? Boy, that's oxymoronic.

[thisguy]

The Dark One's energy is attracted to and repulsed by the evil of Shadar Logoth

Attracted and repulsed at the same time? Boy, that's oxymoronic.

It's kinda like how I feel when I meet a hot chick with a nasty attitude. ;)

[Suttree]

The Dark One's energy is attracted to and repulsed by the evil of Shadar Logoth

Attracted and repulsed at the same time? Boy, that's oxymoronic.

 

Here is how it was described...

 

And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not as mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand...

 

To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.

[ArveduiEreinion]

The Dark One's energy is attracted to and repulsed by the evil of Shadar Logoth

Attracted and repulsed at the same time? Boy, that's oxymoronic.

 

Here is how it was described...

 

And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not as mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand...

 

To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. [He's been waving his hands in the air for this. Hands far apart for the straight line versus hands together, making a circle and coming together again] That will both attract one another and negate one another.

 

A poor word choice on my part but Suttree beat me to posting the actual quote. Ok, so the evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Dark One will "attract one anote and negate one another." Perhaps the wool-headed lummox (not descriptive of your person, I'm sure) would care to take a crack at RJ's description or how RJ's description somehow negates my prior post?

[Tenesmus]

I Foretell that the "kid" Slayer saw lurking in an alley in the Town was actually Padan Fain scoping the place out, and that Fain's current target is none other than Shadair Haran

[Wool-headed lummox]

RJ said: "attract one another and negate one another".

 

ArveduiEreinion (not descriptive of his person, I'm sure) said: "attracted to and repulsed by".

 

Here's the shocker. Hold on to your seats, gentlemen and gentlewomen. Negate =/= repulse. If the Dark One and Shadar Logoth were attracted and repulsed at the same time... they would just stand still, because these two forces would cancel each other out (assuming the attraction and repulsion are equal in strength).

 

According to RJ, however, the two evils attract one another, and once they touch - they both cease to exist. Appreciate the difference, my logic-bereft friends.

[thisguy]

You're not so wool-headed after all. ;)

[thisguy]

I Foretell that the "kid" Slayer saw lurking in an alley in the Town was actually Padan Fain scoping the place out, and that Fain's current target is none other than Shadair Haran

 

where was this, man? Do you remember where in the story?

[Neophyte]

I Foretell that the "kid" Slayer saw lurking in an alley in the Town was actually Padan Fain scoping the place out, and that Fain's current target is none other than Shadair Haran

 

where was this, man? Do you remember where in the story?

 

In the prologue to AMoL, Isam's PoV:

 

Before he turned back to look at the floor, he caught sight of something more incongruous. A small, dirty face watching from the shadows of an alleyway across the street. Wide eyes but a furtive posture. Moridin's passing, and the coming of the thirteens, had driven the Samma N'Sei off the street. Where they were not, the urchins could go in some safety. Maybe.

Isam wanted to scream at the child to go. Tell it to run, to risk crossing the Blight. To die in the stomach of a Worm was better than to live in this Town, and suffer what it did to you. Go! Flee! Die!

 

I'm not so sure it is Fain - given his state of mind the last time we saw him I'm not certain he's capable of that kind of subtle deception anymore. My personal opinion is that it was just an opportunity for the author to delve into Isam's psychology a little. But I guess we'll see.

[thisguy]

I Foretell that the "kid" Slayer saw lurking in an alley in the Town was actually Padan Fain scoping the place out, and that Fain's current target is none other than Shadair Haran

 

where was this, man? Do you remember where in the story?

 

In the prologue to AMoL, Isam's PoV:

 

Before he turned back to look at the floor, he caught sight of something more incongruous. A small, dirty face watching from the shadows of an alleyway across the street. Wide eyes but a furtive posture. Moridin's passing, and the coming of the thirteens, had driven the Samma N'Sei off the street. Where they were not, the urchins could go in some safety. Maybe.

Isam wanted to scream at the child to go. Tell it to run, to risk crossing the Blight. To die in the stomach of a Worm was better than to live in this Town, and suffer what it did to you. Go! Flee! Die!

 

I'm not so sure it is Fain - given his state of mind the last time we saw him I'm not certain he's capable of that kind of subtle deception anymore. My personal opinion is that it was just an opportunity for the author to delve into Isam's psychology a little. But I guess we'll see.

Thank you, man. I haven't read the whole of the prologue.

[Suttree]

RJ said: "attract one another and negate one another".

 

ArveduiEreinion (not descriptive of his person, I'm sure) said: "attracted to and repulsed by".

 

Here's the shocker. Hold on to your seats, gentlemen and gentlewomen. Negate =/= repulse. If the Dark One and Shadar Logoth were attracted and repulsed at the same time... they would just stand still, because these two forces would cancel each other out (assuming the attraction and repulsion are equal in strength).

 

According to RJ, however, the two evils attract one another, and once they touch - they both cease to exist. Appreciate the difference, my logic-bereft friends.

 

First off easy with the caps mate. Second I can totally understand where ArveduiEreinion might have been confused as the first part of the quote does mention the repulsion of Saidin and Saidar. I should have included that when explaining what was actually said.

Robert Jordan

 

You don't think it's obvious? Err, let's see. You have... You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh... as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright?

 

Either way no reason to go after the guys logic.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Suttree, I don't remember appointing you as my Truthspeaker. Please desist your attempts at interfering with my activities here, or I will leave you tied up and gagged in your basement corner.

[Suttree]

Suttree, I don't remember appointing you as my Truthspeaker. Please desist your attempts at interfering with my activities here, or I will leave you tied up and gagged in your basement corner.

 

LoL classic...solid post.

[ArveduiEreinion]

RJ said: "attract one another and negate one another".

 

ArveduiEreinion (not descriptive of his person, I'm sure) said: "attracted to and repulsed by".

 

Here's the shocker. Hold on to your seats, gentlemen and gentlewomen. Negate =/= repulse. If the Dark One and Shadar Logoth were attracted and repulsed at the same time... they would just stand still, because these two forces would cancel each other out (assuming the attraction and repulsion are equal in strength).

 

According to RJ, however, the two evils attract one another, and once they touch - they both cease to exist. Appreciate the difference, my logic-bereft friends.

 

As I said, a poor (as in wrong, as in I shouldn't have used that word) choice of words on my part. I get the difference and shouldn't have said "repulse." Now, do you have a thought on the argument I made or not?

 

Allow me to give you an example: you said "once they touch - they both cease to exist." As to my original post, if Fain is trapped in some manner between the Dark One and the Bore it would have to destroy some part of itself in order to touch the world again. Would the Dark One accept that destruction or would this constitute a more "permanent" seal because the Dark One would be wary of doing so. Of course, humans might be able to affect that patch in some manner at some point in the future but this solution would be different than any previous attempt because Fain has not existed in any previous attempt.

[ArveduiEreinion]

RJ said: "attract one another and negate one another".

 

ArveduiEreinion (not descriptive of his person, I'm sure) said: "attracted to and repulsed by".

 

Here's the shocker. Hold on to your seats, gentlemen and gentlewomen. Negate =/= repulse. If the Dark One and Shadar Logoth were attracted and repulsed at the same time... they would just stand still, because these two forces would cancel each other out (assuming the attraction and repulsion are equal in strength).

 

According to RJ, however, the two evils attract one another, and once they touch - they both cease to exist. Appreciate the difference, my logic-bereft friends.

 

First off easy with the caps mate. Second I can totally understand where ArveduiEreinion might have been confused as the first part of the quote does mention the repulsion of Saidin and Saidar. I should have included that when explaining what was actually said.

Robert Jordan

 

You don't think it's obvious? Err, let's see. You have... You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh... as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright?

 

Either way no reason to go after the guys logic.

 

Also, thanks Suttree (brofist to you). Though, come to think of it, an ad hominem attack is hardly going after someone's logic :)

[Kestrel]

It has been my theory that Rand would somehow stuff Fain down the bore-hole to keep the Dark One occupied while he (Rand) sealed up the bore. The logic was that Fain (mortal) and the Dark One (immortal) would be attracted to each other until such time as Fain's substance/energy burnt out, allowing Rand sufficient time to do whatever he needs to do. Given that Fain represents the chaotic independent-source evil of free men, that could take a while.

 

Based on the above comments, I'm now starting to wonder something different.

 

Perhaps Fain's evil will be attracted, not to the Dark One, but to the bore itself. Rand stuffs Fain down the bore, Fain makes contact with the boundaries of the bore, and the attraction/negation causes the bore to collapse on itself. Both the bore and Fain get negated from existence. The Dark One's prison boundaries are once again whole and unblemished, and the Wheel keeps turning.

 

If the bore is not unique to this turning of the wheel, that's pretty much the way it has to go. The bore is created in one age, eliminated (NOT mended - there's a difference) in the next age, and the Wheel turns onward with the prison intact until the next complete turning when the bore is created anew.

[thisguy]

It has been my theory that Rand would somehow stuff Fain down the bore-hole to keep the Dark One occupied while he (Rand) sealed up the bore. The logic was that Fain (mortal) and the Dark One (immortal) would be attracted to each other until such time as Fain's substance/energy burnt out, allowing Rand sufficient time to do whatever he needs to do. Given that Fain represents the chaotic independent-source evil of free men, that could take a while.

 

Based on the above comments, I'm now starting to wonder something different.

 

Perhaps Fain's evil will be attracted, not to the Dark One, but to the bore itself. Rand stuffs Fain down the bore, Fain makes contact with the boundaries of the bore, and the attraction/negation causes the bore to collapse on itself. Both the bore and Fain get negated from existence. The Dark One's prison boundaries are once again whole and unblemished, and the Wheel keeps turning.

 

If the bore is not unique to this turning of the wheel, that's pretty much the way it has to go. The bore is created in one age, eliminated (NOT mended - there's a difference) in the next age, and the Wheel turns onward with the prison intact until the next complete turning when the bore is created anew.

 

That's actually one of the better stuffing fain in the bore theories I've heard. Someone else likened the bore to a wormhole. I like it. None of this Fain can take on the DO stuff. I don't know if you're right, but nice one.

[ArveduiEreinion]

It has been my theory that Rand would somehow stuff Fain down the bore-hole to keep the Dark One occupied while he (Rand) sealed up the bore. The logic was that Fain (mortal) and the Dark One (immortal) would be attracted to each other until such time as Fain's substance/energy burnt out, allowing Rand sufficient time to do whatever he needs to do. Given that Fain represents the chaotic independent-source evil of free men, that could take a while.

 

Based on the above comments, I'm now starting to wonder something different.

 

Perhaps Fain's evil will be attracted, not to the Dark One, but to the bore itself. Rand stuffs Fain down the bore, Fain makes contact with the boundaries of the bore, and the attraction/negation causes the bore to collapse on itself. Both the bore and Fain get negated from existence. The Dark One's prison boundaries are once again whole and unblemished, and the Wheel keeps turning.

 

If the bore is not unique to this turning of the wheel, that's pretty much the way it has to go. The bore is created in one age, eliminated (NOT mended - there's a difference) in the next age, and the Wheel turns onward with the prison intact until the next complete turning when the bore is created anew.

 

That's actually one of the better stuffing fain in the bore theories I've heard. Someone else likened the bore to a wormhole. I like it. None of this Fain can take on the DO stuff. I don't know if you're right, but nice one.

 

I also like this idea because I think that the Pattern will heal itself. There is another thread, on unweaving the Bore, that makes me think there is an additional step, however. If I remember correctly, the unweaving thread posited that Mierin/Biedomon's weave using saidar/saidin continues to operate. So, in order to close the Bore, Rand would have to unweave that weave akin to what Aviendha did with a gateway. Perhaps, using your idea, Rand begins that process leaving only the Dark One's energy maintaining an opening in the Pattern. Fain could be used to destroy that toehold thereby allowing the Pattern to heal itself. Anyway, what do you think about that wrinkle?

 

Oh, also, one more point. In Chapter 1 of AMoL, Rand is contemplating a solution that supposedly is more "permanent" than past attempts. I'm not sure how the above theory is more permanent that what has been done before (without Fain, because he hasn't existed in previous turnings of the Wheel.) That is, if Fain is destroyed by the Dark One and the Pattern is whole again we are back to the situation that existed during most of the Age of Legends. Rand's idea could just be a red herring, though, as his ultimate actions may be modified by events during the LB.

[thisguy]

It has been my theory that Rand would somehow stuff Fain down the bore-hole to keep the Dark One occupied while he (Rand) sealed up the bore. The logic was that Fain (mortal) and the Dark One (immortal) would be attracted to each other until such time as Fain's substance/energy burnt out, allowing Rand sufficient time to do whatever he needs to do. Given that Fain represents the chaotic independent-source evil of free men, that could take a while.

 

Based on the above comments, I'm now starting to wonder something different.

 

Perhaps Fain's evil will be attracted, not to the Dark One, but to the bore itself. Rand stuffs Fain down the bore, Fain makes contact with the boundaries of the bore, and the attraction/negation causes the bore to collapse on itself. Both the bore and Fain get negated from existence. The Dark One's prison boundaries are once again whole and unblemished, and the Wheel keeps turning.

 

If the bore is not unique to this turning of the wheel, that's pretty much the way it has to go. The bore is created in one age, eliminated (NOT mended - there's a difference) in the next age, and the Wheel turns onward with the prison intact until the next complete turning when the bore is created anew.

 

That's actually one of the better stuffing fain in the bore theories I've heard. Someone else likened the bore to a wormhole. I like it. None of this Fain can take on the DO stuff. I don't know if you're right, but nice one.

 

I also like this idea because I think that the Pattern will heal itself. There is another thread, on unweaving the Bore, that makes me think there is an additional step, however. If I remember correctly, the unweaving thread posited that Mierin/Biedomon's weave using saidar/saidin continues to operate. So, in order to close the Bore, Rand would have to unweave that weave akin to what Aviendha did with a gateway. Perhaps, using your idea, Rand begins that process leaving only the Dark One's energy maintaining an opening in the Pattern. Fain could be used to destroy that toehold thereby allowing the Pattern to heal itself. Anyway, what do you think about that wrinkle?

 

Oh, also, one more point. In Chapter 1 of AMoL, Rand is contemplating a solution that supposedly is more "permanent" than past attempts. I'm not sure how the above theory is more permanent that what has been done before (without Fain, because he hasn't existed in previous turnings of the Wheel.) That is, if Fain is destroyed by the Dark One and the Pattern is whole again we are back to the situation that existed during most of the Age of Legends. Rand's idea could just be a red herring, though, as his ultimate actions may be modified by events during the LB.

I'm for it. ;)

Yeah, he thought something along those lines once before in the last book too, I believe. I find the idea of Rand being able to kill the DO as wrong as Fain being able to do it.... at least without Choedan Kal.... The only thing I can think of that Rand can do differently is knock the wheel off of it's axis - so to speak. Change the wheels turning and maybe the prison is harder to access or something.... hard to say...