Sword Play

[Mulk]

all of the reasons for him to return to the sword ARE NOT gone. I will continue to reiterate, we know of at least one time in the future when he will not be able to channel. He'll be in the same situation Eben was at the cleansing, he can see and feel it all but will be unable to react to any threat by channeling.

 

I'm not looking for or expecting a long drawn out sword fight with him one-handed. I'm expecting that he'll need the use of a sword to help keep himself and the other two alive while Nynaeve or Moiraine is finishing off the weaves on however it is that you seal the Dark One up. He may have some Maidens and other Aiel or warriors with him, but it's anyone's guess how many will still be alive when they get into the Pit - the cover pictures shows that it is just the three of them and while I have to hesitate at taking that for gospel truth (maybe the others are just out of line of sight at the moment?) I do not expect they will get into the Pit and seal off the Dark One without at least one last fight.

[Neophyte]

The cover picture shows him leaving Nynaeve and Moiraine near the surface and going in by himself - so either there is a way that he can control the weaving (since they wouldn't be able to see what's going on in the Pit) or the cover art is just art. Wheel of Time covers have been fairly accurate scenes in the past, though - even precise in many ways - so I'm leaning towards them finding a way for him to be able to control the flows himself.

 

The need for a woman to be controlling the flows with Callandor seems to have been related to the need to be careful of the taint-madness. If that is no longer an issue, then Rand is most definitely not in the same situation as Eben at the cleansing.

 

Any fight up until they reach Shayol Ghul should be settled by channeling and soldiers. For Rand to risk himself in hand-to-hand combat at this point would be ludicrous. Once he is descending into the Pit, I doubt he'll find any of the hand-to-hand kind of risks - the place doesn't seem to have bunches of Shadowspawn in it. Even the Forsaken don't come there very often.

[thisguy]

The cover picture shows him leaving Nynaeve and Moiraine near the surface and going in by himself - so either there is a way that he can control the weaving (since they wouldn't be able to see what's going on in the Pit) or the cover art is just art. Wheel of Time covers have been fairly accurate scenes in the past, though - even precise in many ways - so I'm leaning towards them finding a way for him to be able to control the flows himself.

 

The need for a woman to be controlling the flows with Callandor seems to have been related to the need to be careful of the taint-madness. If that is no longer an issue, then Rand is most definitely not in the same situation as Eben at the cleansing.

 

Any fight up until they reach Shayol Ghul should be settled by channeling and soldiers. For Rand to risk himself in hand-to-hand combat at this point would be ludicrous. Once he is descending into the Pit, I doubt he'll find any of the hand-to-hand kind of risks - the place doesn't seem to have bunches of Shadowspawn in it. Even the Forsaken don't come there very often.

 

I may be wrong, but I thought the need of women to link with while using Callandor was for a buffer because Callandor's flaw is that there isn't one - which most angreal have. So, without them, he can pull in so much of the Power he'd burn out.

 

Again, I can be completely wrong, but I was speculating that the linking between Rand and the two women and Callandor might end up being like the way the male a'dam linking occurs. Apparently, if the male is powerful enough, he can end up controlling the women. If that's the case, the Rand can weave baskets and hats and blankets to his heart's content.

[Neophyte]

The cover picture shows him leaving Nynaeve and Moiraine near the surface and going in by himself - so either there is a way that he can control the weaving (since they wouldn't be able to see what's going on in the Pit) or the cover art is just art. Wheel of Time covers have been fairly accurate scenes in the past, though - even precise in many ways - so I'm leaning towards them finding a way for him to be able to control the flows himself.

 

The need for a woman to be controlling the flows with Callandor seems to have been related to the need to be careful of the taint-madness. If that is no longer an issue, then Rand is most definitely not in the same situation as Eben at the cleansing.

 

Any fight up until they reach Shayol Ghul should be settled by channeling and soldiers. For Rand to risk himself in hand-to-hand combat at this point would be ludicrous. Once he is descending into the Pit, I doubt he'll find any of the hand-to-hand kind of risks - the place doesn't seem to have bunches of Shadowspawn in it. Even the Forsaken don't come there very often.

 

I may be wrong, but I thought the need of women to link with while using Callandor was for a buffer because Callandor's flaw is that there isn't one - which most angreal have. So, without them, he can pull in so much of the Power he'd burn out.

 

Again, I can be completely wrong, but I was speculating that the linking between Rand and the two women and Callandor might end up being like the way the male a'dam linking occurs. Apparently, if the male is powerful enough, he can end up controlling the women. If that's the case, the Rand can weave baskets and hats and blankets to his heart's content.

 

Linking and controlling the flows are two different things. There seems to be little doubt that Rand needs to be linked to two women when using Callandor, not only because of the buffer flaw, but also because he'll need to have access to saidar as well as saidin.

 

However, it is possible (or at least, it may be - the mechanics of who has to control what type of circle has seemed murky at times) for the three of them to be linked, with Rand in control of the flows, so that he is not in the same situation as Eben at the cleansing (where Eben was linked, but not in control of the flows, and therefore helpless to address the threat posed by Aran'gar by channeling himself). When Cadsuane warns Rand of Callandor's flaws in tPoD chapter 27, she says that it is only safe to use with a woman in control of the flows because it "magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind." Now that the taint is cleansed, and Rand's own madness is at least contained, it should be safe to let Rand be in control.

 

Callandor wouldn't even need to be like the Domination Band for that to work - the women could just pass control of the circle to him, as control is often passed in a circle (again, assuming that is possible in a circle of two women and one man - it seems that it should be, given what is written in the Guide about linking).

[clu7ch]

The way i've always imagined linking - it's about shared power. Remember how they did it when Perrin was making his hammer? The Asha'man was melding the flows. It's all about a submissive/dominance thing. You willfully allow a member of the circle to meld the flows and lead the circle, while what you are doing is granting them your power.

 

Callandor doesn't require a female to meld the flows, it was just done that way at the cleansing. In a way, the female aes sedai aren't using callandor. The asha'man was, and elza, iirc, simply melded the flows. I don't particularly believe this is even a well thought out way to act as a buffer, because I feel like the leader of the circle could still draw too much power, potentially even burning out all three, unless Saidar was designed as a buffer.

 

Either way, I'm sure rand could lead the circle and meld the flows. Even if not safe, I think it's silly to assume he CAN'T lead the circle. Excepting that callandor is a male sa'angreal and i don't see what saidar would give it, unless the linked females do act as the buffer.

 

I'm cloudy on my callandor lore.

 

But mayhaps callandor isn't 100% a male sa'angreal. maybe it's circumstantially both.

 

and karate explosions anger the wicker baskets.

[clu7ch]

high five for beating me to the same post neo :D

[thisguy]

The cover picture shows him leaving Nynaeve and Moiraine near the surface and going in by himself - so either there is a way that he can control the weaving (since they wouldn't be able to see what's going on in the Pit) or the cover art is just art. Wheel of Time covers have been fairly accurate scenes in the past, though - even precise in many ways - so I'm leaning towards them finding a way for him to be able to control the flows himself.

 

The need for a woman to be controlling the flows with Callandor seems to have been related to the need to be careful of the taint-madness. If that is no longer an issue, then Rand is most definitely not in the same situation as Eben at the cleansing.

 

Any fight up until they reach Shayol Ghul should be settled by channeling and soldiers. For Rand to risk himself in hand-to-hand combat at this point would be ludicrous. Once he is descending into the Pit, I doubt he'll find any of the hand-to-hand kind of risks - the place doesn't seem to have bunches of Shadowspawn in it. Even the Forsaken don't come there very often.

 

I may be wrong, but I thought the need of women to link with while using Callandor was for a buffer because Callandor's flaw is that there isn't one - which most angreal have. So, without them, he can pull in so much of the Power he'd burn out.

 

Again, I can be completely wrong, but I was speculating that the linking between Rand and the two women and Callandor might end up being like the way the male a'dam linking occurs. Apparently, if the male is powerful enough, he can end up controlling the women. If that's the case, the Rand can weave baskets and hats and blankets to his heart's content.

 

Linking and controlling the flows are two different things. There seems to be little doubt that Rand needs to be linked to two women when using Callandor, not only because of the buffer flaw, but also because he'll need to have access to saidar as well as saidin.

 

However, it is possible (or at least, it may be - the mechanics of who has to control what type of circle has seemed murky at times) for the three of them to be linked, with Rand in control of the flows, so that he is not in the same situation as Eben at the cleansing (where Eben was linked, but not in control of the flows, and therefore helpless to address the threat posed by Aran'gar by channeling himself). When Cadsuane warns Rand of Callandor's flaws in tPoD chapter 27, she says that it is only safe to use with a woman in control of the flows because it "magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind." Now that the taint is cleansed, and Rand's own madness is at least contained, it should be safe to let Rand be in control.

 

Callandor wouldn't even need to be like the Domination Band for that to work - the women could just pass control of the circle to him, as control is often passed in a circle (again, assuming that is possible in a circle of two women and one man - it seems that it should be, given what is written in the Guide about linking).

Sorry. A lot of what comes after book six is still dim in my memory. So, I had no memory of that taint explanation. As for controlling the weaves - I thought 1 woman + 1 man = man in control. 12 women + 1 man = man in control. I didn't realize the 2 women could just give up control to the Rand.

[clu7ch]

there are some rather interesting plot holes there. While we aren't told exactly how many participated in the circle during 'a making' i doubt it was 12.

[Mulk]

I've been proceeding on the assumption that Rand will still hand over control of the circle for this scenario. Callandor lacks the buffer and magnifies the taint. It is rightly pointed out that the taint is gone and therefore a non-issue. What Cadsuane said is the only way for him to be safe while using it is while using it in a circle with two women and one of them directing the flows and it wasn't solely because of the taint. Which means Rand very well could be in charge, but then he won't be buffered from over pulling, or at least so I read it.

 

I could very well be wrong. This is just my interpretation so that it is clear how my train of thought is working. RAFO, right? :D

[clu7ch]

but to be honest, in VoG rand seemingly knew when he was drawing too much power. Then drew more. I doubt he'd be unable to apply common sense with callandor also? I mean, the CK didn't stop him from pulling too much.

[Neophyte]

The cover picture shows him leaving Nynaeve and Moiraine near the surface and going in by himself - so either there is a way that he can control the weaving (since they wouldn't be able to see what's going on in the Pit) or the cover art is just art. Wheel of Time covers have been fairly accurate scenes in the past, though - even precise in many ways - so I'm leaning towards them finding a way for him to be able to control the flows himself.

 

The need for a woman to be controlling the flows with Callandor seems to have been related to the need to be careful of the taint-madness. If that is no longer an issue, then Rand is most definitely not in the same situation as Eben at the cleansing.

 

Any fight up until they reach Shayol Ghul should be settled by channeling and soldiers. For Rand to risk himself in hand-to-hand combat at this point would be ludicrous. Once he is descending into the Pit, I doubt he'll find any of the hand-to-hand kind of risks - the place doesn't seem to have bunches of Shadowspawn in it. Even the Forsaken don't come there very often.

 

I may be wrong, but I thought the need of women to link with while using Callandor was for a buffer because Callandor's flaw is that there isn't one - which most angreal have. So, without them, he can pull in so much of the Power he'd burn out.

 

Again, I can be completely wrong, but I was speculating that the linking between Rand and the two women and Callandor might end up being like the way the male a'dam linking occurs. Apparently, if the male is powerful enough, he can end up controlling the women. If that's the case, the Rand can weave baskets and hats and blankets to his heart's content.

 

Linking and controlling the flows are two different things. There seems to be little doubt that Rand needs to be linked to two women when using Callandor, not only because of the buffer flaw, but also because he'll need to have access to saidar as well as saidin.

 

However, it is possible (or at least, it may be - the mechanics of who has to control what type of circle has seemed murky at times) for the three of them to be linked, with Rand in control of the flows, so that he is not in the same situation as Eben at the cleansing (where Eben was linked, but not in control of the flows, and therefore helpless to address the threat posed by Aran'gar by channeling himself). When Cadsuane warns Rand of Callandor's flaws in tPoD chapter 27, she says that it is only safe to use with a woman in control of the flows because it "magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind." Now that the taint is cleansed, and Rand's own madness is at least contained, it should be safe to let Rand be in control.

 

Callandor wouldn't even need to be like the Domination Band for that to work - the women could just pass control of the circle to him, as control is often passed in a circle (again, assuming that is possible in a circle of two women and one man - it seems that it should be, given what is written in the Guide about linking).

Sorry. A lot of what comes after book six is still dim in my memory. So, I had no memory of that taint explanation. As for controlling the weaves - I thought 1 woman + 1 man = man in control. 12 women + 1 man = man in control. I didn't realize the 2 women could just give up control to the Rand.

 

No worries (and good heavens no apology needed ... my wife would smack me if she thought I was getting too uppity online or anywhere else!). As I said, the mechanics of linking can get pretty murky, and the two women one man circle seems to be the least well defined of all. What is implied TFoH chapter 34 and what the Guide says possibly conflict, and the conflict applies specifically to a circle with two women and one man. So, all of this is contingent on the mechanics of linking.

[Mulk]

As far as we know, the CK had the buffer required. But Rand pulled every last bit of what he could draw, and he likely could have broken the world open entirely by channeling it in the "right" way.

 

As for whether he would know or not...the problem therein is that sealing away the Dark One is his whole purpose in life. It's the one thing at which he might be seriously tempted to overdraw in order to finish things. I don't doubt that he knows where his limit is. I just doubt that, given his goal being right in front of him, whether he can be trusted or would trust himself to not overdo it in the attempt to end it.

 

Again, just my two cents.

[clu7ch]

We'll find out in January!!

[Mulk]

yeah. that sure seems an awful long time away right now. :(

[thisguy]

As far as we know, the CK had the buffer required. But Rand pulled every last bit of what he could draw, and he likely could have broken the world open entirely by channeling it in the "right" way.

 

As for whether he would know or not...the problem therein is that sealing away the Dark One is his whole purpose in life. It's the one thing at which he might be seriously tempted to overdraw in order to finish things. I don't doubt that he knows where his limit is. I just doubt that, given his goal being right in front of him, whether he can be trusted or would trust himself to not overdo it in the attempt to end it.

 

Again, just my two cents.

It's a good point, I would be surprised if their attacked during the sealing and one of the women turns to deal with it and he takes the opportunity to go supernova and close the thing.

[Tiinker]

I feel like the concept of the sword and sword fighting are going to be more present in the form of a philosophy instead of him having to resort to using his blade skill during the LB.

[thisguy]

I don't know, I think it might be another Arthur thing - the sword in the stone - I'm guessing there's a physical manifestation of the prison. Jam the sword in the stone and go supernova - maybe after spilling your blood on the stones. Who knows?

[Neophyte]

I don't know, I think it might be another Arthur thing - the sword in the stone - I'm guessing there's a physical manifestation of the prison. Jam the sword in the stone and go supernova - maybe after spilling your blood on the stones. Who knows?

 

I think we've already passed that part of the story ... "Whoso pulleth out this Callandor from out this Stone is Rightwise Dragon of all Randland"

[clu7ch]

i honestly doubt we'll see any of rand going supernova, beings his genocide up north nearly drained him to the point of collapse. He can't be weakened by uberpwnage right at the start when he's got to get all mystical on that bore.

[thisguy]

I meant he'd go supernova to close the bore.

[clu7ch]

fair enough :)

[Vardar]

I've been proceeding on the assumption that Rand will still hand over control of the circle for this scenario. Callandor lacks the buffer and magnifies the taint. It is rightly pointed out that the taint is gone and therefore a non-issue. What Cadsuane said is the only way for him to be safe while using it is while using it in a circle with two women and one of them directing the flows and it wasn't solely because of the taint. Which means Rand very well could be in charge, but then he won't be buffered from over pulling, or at least so I read it.

 

I could very well be wrong. This is just my interpretation so that it is clear how my train of thought is working. RAFO, right? :D

 

You can't overpull in a circle. So the buffer is provided by the circle regardless of who is leading.

 

Basically it's totally safe for someone to use Callendor in a circle regardless of who's leading.

 

Edited to remove Not, cause I'm slow.

[Mulk]

my personal take is that the person in charge of a circle cannot force another person to overdraw, but that he or she can still do that to his or herself. I have no idea if that is backed up anywhere else, but that is how I read it given the strictures laid down by Cadsuane.

[thisguy]

then how are the two women a buffer?

[Mulk]

because RJ said so? We are told that you can't escape a circle you are in, but the leader of it can't do harm to you through overdrawing, and Cadsuane tells us that Rand can't use Callandor safely unless while in a circle and someone else controlling the flows. I'm not sure how that adds up to you, I'm just saying what it looks like to me. If it turns out I'm wrong, I'm cool with that.