I missed something: Mat and Tuon in KoD

[Iceman]

OK... This is all horribly paraphrased, but near the end of KoD, when Tuon says those fateful words and latches on to Mat's greatness forever (heh, heh), he asks her why she married him "now".

 

She says she got a foretelling of sorts that mentioned her marrying a guy that

1- had Mat's ring.

2- could remember Hawkwings face

3- had a Red Hand with him

 

She said she saw his ring right away and then said he confirmed the second part "just then"...

 

What just then?! I've reread the parts of KoD with Mat and Tuon in them several times and don't see anywhere that he mentioned to her knowing what Hawkwing looks like. He had just told her about how the 'finns told him he'd marry the DOTNM, but he didn't mention the memories he'd gotten from them... AND she still doesn't know he blew the HoV.

 

Can anyone help me with this? What'd I miss?

[mikey sedai]

i'm sorry i don't have my books to hand, but......

IIRC she thought to herself that she could only marry a man who knew to be lead, but who knew how to be a 'lion on a hillside'?

she'd only know him as the Toy before hand, but when she saw him as the lion , how much he inspired respect of his army did she realise just how dangerous he was. and she realised the he was in charge fully of the Hand.

that's how she knew he was the one to marry.

[Jellybelly]

Tuon probably refers to the point about the Red Hand in her statement in KoD. I think this part is a bit poorly articulated by RJ. The part about Hawkwing, however, is found in CoT, chapter 3, A Fan of Colors. Tuon asks Mat if he remembers Hawkwing's face, and although Mat lies and says that he does not, Tuon sees through it.

[Kadere]

You're leaving out the second parts of the prophecies. It's "Beware the fox that makes the raven fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face for he will marry you and SET YOU FREE. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other."

 

He completed the first part when he took her from Ebou Dar, she then asks him constantly if he remebers Hawkwings face to confirm the second part, but he never confirms it, until now. Now he's letting her free and back to Ebou Dar, thus confirming the second part "just then."

[Darkloki]

The Toy, had proven that he could lead, and is a dangerous man. I think the previous replies has done well enough to clear any misunderstandings up, but I just had to say...

 

After the battle, he sets her free to go back and rule, she realizes he is the one she was meant to marry, and with out knowing when they will meet again, she took her chance. Plus, it was clear she loves him, she is just a crazy bald girl so she shows it differently.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The part about Hawkwing, however, is found in CoT, chapter 3, A Fan of Colors. Tuon asks Mat if he remembers Hawkwing's face, and although Mat lies and says that he does not, Tuon sees through it.

 

Bingo. Beat me to it.

[Jimmyrun]

First off we need to look at the foretelling that Tuon received which can be found in KoD Chapter 36 Under an Oak:

 

Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly, for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other.

 

In looking at the foretelling that Tuon received we can break each part down into multiple things that happen. First, the 'fox that makes the ravens fly' is Mat's signet ring that he had to buy which shows a fox chasing two ravens and nine cresent moons; Second, the 'he will marry you and carry you away' is when Mat actually says that Tuon is his wife in the stables in Ebou Dar and then proceeds to take her with him out of the city; Third, 'the man who remembers Hawkwing's face' is accomplished through Mat's memories from the Finn's (can't remember which off the top of my head); Fourth, the 'he will set you free' is when Mat allows Tuon to leave with Karede; Fifth, 'Beware the man of the red hand' is because Mat is the general who leads the Band of the Red Hand; and Sixth, 'for him you will marry' is when Tuon actually completes the marriage ceremony Mat started in Ebou Dar.

 

All of that shows how each individual part of the foretelling was accomplished but the important thing is the "second part" that Tuon was talking about. The first time I read this it confused me as well but after rereading it and looking at it closer I think that she literally means the second part of the foretelling or the second sentence which says 'Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face, for he will marry you and set you free.' Tuon ask's Mat if he remembers Hawkwing's face and I see it as her suspecting that he lied about this because we see from Tuon perspective in the book that she is very good at detecting lies. Also, when he set her free to return to Ebou Dar with Karede it confirmed to her that he was indeed lying because putting the fact that he remembers Hawkwing with the fact that he set her free fulfills the second part of the foretelling.

 

I don't know if this is what you were looking for but that is how I see the foretelling being fulfilled and also that is what I see as the "second part" that Tuon was talking about.

[Jonn]

She probably does love him as much as she is really capable of such a thing. Remember that in her family it is a matter of course that one family member would plot the death of another. Even brothers and sisters would kill each other to gain favor towards the succession to the Crystal Throne.

 

I imagine that it's actually rather rare that someone in her position would marry for love. Fulfillment of prophecy makes more sense to her. It is a duty to fulfill what the Pattern holds for her. Mat, to be fair, is approaching it much the same way because of the Finn prophecy.

 

Along the way though, they've shown how much they care for one another. Mat's POV confirms that he'd kill anyone who'd threaten her life. Tuon is pretty much obsessed with the man, though her bearing won't allow her to show it.

 

I must say that over the last couple of books I've grown to really enjoy their relationship dynamic.

[Iceman]

Thank you very much all.

 

After hearing your thoughts, I'd have to agree that each of those 3 things I mentioned really does have 2 parts to each. The part she was refering to when she said he "just did it" was "setting her free".

 

Kudos for helping me see that one through. :D

 

I do have to say, I like their relationship a lot as well, but MOSTLY because she's FINALLY seeing just how totally amazing Mat really is.

I can't wait to read her reaction to finding out that he's the one who blew the Horn of Valere. I'm hoping she gets all bug eyed and speechless for a few minutes. Ha, ha! Mat is the Man!

[yolindamo]

I agree that it is totally obvious that they are in love with each other. While I do not think that it was necesary, I am glad that it happened that way. They are both wonderful characters (Mat is my favorite character in any fictional story ever). I think they suit each other in a weird way. They are not what the other would have ever looked for or thought of for a mate and yet they are perfect for each other.

[Isam]

I'm happy for those kids. But personally, if someone insisted on calling me "Toy" ever chance she got, I'd dump her lickety-split.

[Iceman]

I'm happy for those kids. But personally' date=' if someone insisted on calling me "Toy" ever chance she got, I'd dump her lickety-split.[/quote']

 

That was annoying... but you'll notice that after she married him, she only referred to him as "Matrim". Can't openly call the Prince of the Ravens your "Toy" in public. That would lower your eyes!

[Kaznen]

I'm surprised that no one has mention that Mat himself, Matrim Cauthorn, has met Artur Hawkwing. There was that episode in tGH when he sounded the horn. And who was leading the heroes? Hawkwing. He even order Mat to sound them into battle.

 

And what happened at Falme was one of the things Mat didn't forget when he was healed from the dagger. That was one of the first things he remembered.

[Guest Fire Lord]

Kaznen, I've just read your post and I'm banging my head on the wall.

All of us had overlooked the obvious, and had gone into deep searches related to Mat's memories about Hawkwing.

I had totally forgoteen that he had met him at Falme. What I can't remember is, did the heroes introduce themselves? I mean, how did Mat know it was Hawkwing? Did Rand tell him at some point?

[Lisana]

Maybe he remembered Hawkwings face from tGH but didn't know who he was. Then when he got all his memories, he finally knew who that guy was :)

[V1zharan]

I can't see the second page due to the board spazzing, so if someone already answered this, sorry. But...just curious...who else would be leading the heroes of the Horn? I'm sure the stories they have heard have mentioned at least some vague description of Hawkwing. His sword, Justice, is also mentioned, so there is his trusty legendary sword, and there is the likelihood of at least a vague description of Hawkwing in one of the stories they learned as children.

 

~V1zharan~

[isleofjib]

good call, kaznen. mat has not only met hawkwing when he sounded the horn, but some of the guys in his head also remember him so he knows him that way too. but i'm going for the falme scenario in how HE remembers hawkwing. (tho in chapter 36 in KoD in mat's POV, he says "he would give up those memories of hawkwing's face along with every other old memory, if it would get the bloody snakes out of his head." so maybe it isn't from falme)

 

also, for tuon, there is a point in KoD ch 26 from her POV where she thinks, "her own thoughts interfered with eavesdropping, however. so he had grown up with the dragon reborn, had he? the dragon reborn! and he had denied knowing anything at all of the man. that was one lie of his she had failed to catch, and she was good at catching lies."

 

a few paragraphs later she thinks, "but toy was the one. he remembered hawkwing's face. that seemed utterly impossible, yet his denial of it had plainly been a lie, as plain as the spots on a leopard. could the red hand be toy's sigil? but if so, what about his ring? she had almost fainted when she first saw that. well, she had come as close to it as she had since childhood."

 

so 10 chapters earlier, we already see that she knows about mat remembering hawkwing's face and knows his denial for the lie it is. and she knows about the ring, and is putting together the pieces about the red hand. so all that remained for mat to prove he was the one she was supposed to marry was let her go.

[Darkloki]

I think she only suspected untill the denial,had to be certain of all three things. The red hand, fox making ravens fly, and knowing hawkwing. However, from what I remember, his memory of the horn and Falme is sketchy at best. He remembers blowing it, but not much else. Someone telling him to "play a tune to send them off into battle". But I don't recall him actually connecting that with Hawkwing from anything other then the stories of him being the leader. It wasn't untill she asked that he had visions of himself meeting Hawkwing in battle, or dieing and being priased by Hawkwing for the brilliant plans, and mentioning of fighting on the same side... possibly (and this is a stretch) Hawkwing eluding to reincarnation that is Mat and TG.

[Guest Barmacral]

Kaznen' date=' I've just read your post and I'm banging my head on the wall.

All of us had overlooked the obvious, and had gone into deep searches related to Mat's memories about Hawkwing.

I had totally forgoteen that he had met him at Falme. What I can't remember is, did the heroes introduce themselves? I mean, how did Mat know it was Hawkwing? Did Rand tell him at some point?[/quote']

 

I don't recall if Mat knew the hero's offhand, however, in book 8 (PoD) when Birgitte visits Mat at his inn in Ebou Dar, he walks in and seeing her, his memory of that battle sort of hits him, and in the memory he names off several hero's of legend as he saw them, the first I believe being Artur Hawkwing. This shows that he does in fact remember Hawkwings face from his own personal experiences.

[Thor]

They all knew who the heroes were. I mean, come one, they've heard of them a thousand times in stories and songs.

[Silver]

no, if you reread.. book 2 was it? when the horn is sounded and the hero's come, the 3 guys automatically knew who each hero was, even noticing that some of the names they knew the heros by were not actually the names of the heroes

 

Hurin gasped. "Lord Rand!" There was no need for him to point.

Down the billowing fog, as if it were the side of a mountain, rode shapes on horses. At first the dense mists hid more than that, but slowly they came closer, and it was Rand's turn to gasp. He knew them. Men, not all in armor, and women. Their clothes and their weapons came from every Age, but he knew them all.

Rogosh Eagle-eye, a fatherly looking man with white hair and eyes so sharp as to make his name merely a hint. Gaidal Cain, a swarthy man with the hilts of his two swords sticking above his broad shoulders. Golden haired Birgitte, with her gleaming silver bow and quiver bristling with silver arrows. More. He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, that particular quote only proves that Rand knew them on sight, and remembered their names from other lives. Thats one reason I think he's tied to the Wheel, and would answer the Horn if he were dead when it was blown.

[isleofjib]

Actually' date=' that particular quote only proves that Rand knew them on sight, and remembered their names from other lives. Thats one reason I think he's tied to the Wheel, and would answer the Horn if he were dead when it was blown.[/quote']

 

you know, that's something i've never even thought about before reading your quote, but it makes perfect sense.

[Guest Barmacral]

Actually' date=' that particular quote only proves that Rand knew them on sight, and remembered their names from other lives. Thats one reason I think he's tied to the Wheel, and would answer the Horn if he were dead when it was blown.[/quote']

 

But we already know that he's tied to the wheel, as Hawkwing talks to him and tells him about the many times that they've fought side by side, which could only happen if they were tied to the wheel, as they obviously didn't live through the same time period that first time each of them lived.

[FelixA9]

You're leaving out the second parts of the prophecies. It's "Beware the fox that makes the raven fly' date=' for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing's face for he will marry you and SET YOU FREE.[/quote']

 

Technically she only asked him once but saw "lie" written all over his face. Too bad he didn't reply with "yeah, he was first in line when I blew the Horn of Valere" :lol: And then of course he remembers Hawkwing from his other memories.