2 musings: Portrayals of gay women in WOT and the shrinking populations

[jsbrads]

Morsker:

Food doesn't seem to be in short supply, so individual actions seem to have a great effect,

today for example, where most of the western world forgoes having children in any real numbers, 2.5 children in US, is slow growth with negative growth in Japan with 1.1 children

Randland have enough food for ppl to have kids... also see topic "economic stagnation" - the population is falling.

[FarShainMael]

Food is the main limiter on population. Some people choosing not to reproduce has almost no effect; other people will reproduce more. As long as there's food.

 

The Marching Morons..

[Luckers]

Food is the main limiter on population. Some people choosing not to reproduce has almost no effect; other people will reproduce more. As long as there's food. The population has been declinding because Ishamael tried his best to set back civilizaton every 1000 years when he got free.

 

Women choosing not to reproduce has more effect than men of course, but still I think not too much. Also it's not like gay women have any difficulty having children, if they feel like it. Aes Sedai just seem not to want children.

 

Except, maybe, the influence of a super-malevolent god-like being. That might also have an effect.

[Terez]

I've had 2 thoughts which have bugged me for a while -

 

1 - That the gay women in WOT seem to hate and distrust all men while in my experience in real life this simply isn't the case. I've had many gay female friends who while they're not attracted to men, don't hate or distrust them and in fact share many things in common (like looking at beautiful girls :D).

 

I wonder if this is because this is how gays are portrayed by the conservative and religious right in media in the US, and thus RJ wrote the characters in this way as it would be easier for US readers to understand the characters portrayed as such. Whatever the reason, to me as a Brit, the attitudes portrayed seem to jarr with my personal experience.

 

The evidence suggests that it went like this:

 

1. WoT has no gay characters. Readers complain. RJ puts lesbians in LOC.

2. Lesbians are all man-haters. Readers complain. RJ introduces nice lesbians.

3. There are no gay men. Readers complain. RJ mentions them offhandedly a couple of times.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The evidence suggests that it went like this:

 

1. WoT has no gay characters. Readers complain. RJ puts lesbians in LOC.

2. Lesbians are all man-haters. Readers complain. RJ introduces nice lesbians.

3. There are no gay men. Readers complain. RJ mentions them offhandedly a couple of times.

 

Indeed, I think that not polarising homosexuality actually was a good idea, if not handled the best, there are problems with this, seen in the debate with Brandon, Luckers and you.

 

Particularly with the newer fantasy (2000-) I find that the treatment of homosexuality is really poorly done. Few books I have read do well in this regards, it just seems to me that the author feels like they have to include something homosexual just to please the readers and it becomes a token, with no real substance to it, and no point in the story.

 

It has the opposite effect, in my mind, it is like saying "Oh hey, this is a homosexual, everyone look here!" like it is some kind of attraction rather than treating them like any other person.

 

Point being, I support exposure to homosexuality through literature, but instead of making it look like a circus, I feel making it just an accepted part of society would be far better.

 

Which is what RJ said (although I think it was more an excuse not to have it) that there wasn't anything about it in the books because it is not an issue and they are treated equally.

 

Edit: Obviously I am not in a position to fully understand the feelings involved, and if this method is something homosexuals feel is a good thing, then I am all for it, but if it was me, I would be offended by such a gesture.

[Vardar]

I've had 2 thoughts which have bugged me for a while -

 

1 - That the gay women in WOT seem to hate and distrust all men while in my experience in real life this simply isn't the case. I've had many gay female friends who while they're not attracted to men, don't hate or distrust them and in fact share many things in common (like looking at beautiful girls :D).

 

I wonder if this is because this is how gays are portrayed by the conservative and religious right in media in the US, and thus RJ wrote the characters in this way as it would be easier for US readers to understand the characters portrayed as such. Whatever the reason, to me as a Brit, the attitudes portrayed seem to jarr with my personal experience.

 

The evidence suggests that it went like this:

 

1. WoT has no gay characters. Readers complain. RJ puts lesbians in LOC.

2. Lesbians are all man-haters. Readers complain. RJ introduces nice lesbians.

3. There are no gay men. Readers complain. RJ mentions them offhandedly a couple of times.

 

Gay men? When?

[Terez]

1. When Rolan captured Faile, she felt insulted that he wasn't checking her out, so she considered that maybe he did not like women 'that way'.

2. When Sierin Vayu took over as Amyrlin, she fired all the men in the Tower, including those who 'had no liking for women at all'.

[Dagon Thyne]

What gay women do you mean? AFAIK the only indications we have are 'pillowfriends', but they don't seem to dislike men (Moiraine and Siuan for example). Can you provide any examples of named known gay women in the books?

 

Male channellers are indeed distrusted in Randland and for good reason - they go mad and destroy people and things.

 

Also: is the population shrinking? Not saying it isn't necessarily, I just wonder what makes you think that.

 

I would think that Reds would be the only Aes Sedai who would be full lesbians, and there are those in the red who do not dislike men, but simply feel that stopping male channelors is important.

 

Most pillowfriends are straight woman who experimented with bi-sex as novices to help them cope and comfort each other.

[Vardar]

1. When Rolan captured Faile, she felt insulted that he wasn't checking her out, so she considered that maybe he did not like women 'that way'.

2. When Sierin Vayu took over as Amyrlin, she fired all the men in the Tower, including those who 'had no liking for women at all'.

 

Huh...

 

I never took those that way. Cool, thanks.

[Terez]

I would think that Reds would be the only Aes Sedai who would be full lesbians

 

Don't conflate 'full lesbians' with man-haters. Seonid is a 'full lesbian', and she's a Green.

[Terez]

1. When Rolan captured Faile, she felt insulted that he wasn't checking her out, so she considered that maybe he did not like women 'that way'.

2. When Sierin Vayu took over as Amyrlin, she fired all the men in the Tower, including those who 'had no liking for women at all'.

 

Huh...

 

I never took those that way. Cool, thanks.

 

Hard to see how you could take them any other way...

[Vardar]

1. When Rolan captured Faile, she felt insulted that he wasn't checking her out, so she considered that maybe he did not like women 'that way'.

2. When Sierin Vayu took over as Amyrlin, she fired all the men in the Tower, including those who 'had no liking for women at all'.

 

Huh...

 

I never took those that way. Cool, thanks.

[Alric]

 

The evidence suggests that it went like this:

 

1. WoT has no gay characters. Readers complain. RJ puts lesbians in LOC.

2. Lesbians are all man-haters. Readers complain. RJ introduces nice lesbians.

3. There are no gay men. Readers complain. RJ mentions them offhandedly a couple of times.

 

That was my guess too. But I don't really want to blame him for not including any non-heterosexual characters to begin with. Lets not forget that he started planning tWoT in 1984 and including such characters at that time may have included some risks that could have jeopardized the success of the whole series. That might be part of the reason, another reason (and probably a bit more likely) is that at the time it didn't come naturally since homosexuality was still largely something that was ignored in popular culture and society in general, and most people his age and generation just didn't deal with the topic.

[thisguy]

What gay women do you mean? AFAIK the only indications we have are 'pillowfriends', but they don't seem to dislike men (Moiraine and Siuan for example). Can you provide any examples of named known gay women in the books?

 

Male channellers are indeed distrusted in Randland and for good reason - they go mad and destroy people and things.

 

Also: is the population shrinking? Not saying it isn't necessarily, I just wonder what makes you think that.

 

Many of the Red Ajah are implied to be gay but I wasn't trying to turn this into a Red Ajah bashing session. The 13th Depository says:

 

 

Their general attitude towards men is one of suspicion because of this, and some take it to such an extreme that all men, whether they can channel or not, are practically anathema. This is perhaps the

reason

some women choose the Red, rather than the

effect

of that choice; they already dislike men, and hunting men who can channel gives their dislike a ‘useful’ focus. Galina Casban is most certainly one of these:

 

 

Other than Galina I can think of Liandrin but before you ask I don't think this is necessarily a Black Ajah connection. I think in KoD it says that Tsutama Rath would show mercy to a rabid dog before she would a man which would lead me to believe she must either be gay or asexual and certainly matches the point copied from the 13th Depository above re the Red Ajah recruiting women who dislike men. RJ himself said:

 

 

"

I have gay and lesbian characters in my books, but the only time it has really come into the open is with the Aes Sedai because I haven’t been inside the heads of any other characters who are either gay or bi. For the most part, in this world such things are taken as a matter of course.

 

 

-

The Official Robert Jordan Blog

, October 6, 2005

 

 

Galina is the most openly gay AS I can find:

 

Galina wanted to laugh. Maidens; they called these monstrous women Maidens. She wished she could laugh. At least there were no men present, a small mercy. Men made her skin crawl, and if one could see her now, less than half-clothed….Anxiously, her eyes sought for Therava…

 

- A Crown of Swords, Spears

 

Tarna kept her face smooth with an effort. Pillow-friends were common among novices and Accepted, but girlhood things should be left behind with girlhood. Not all sisters saw it so, certainly. Galina had been quite surprised when Tarna refused her advances after gaining the shawl.

 

-

Knife of Dreams

, Attending Elaida

 

 

Re the population, I'm sure I've read somewhere, possibly in the encyclopaedia that the population is shrinking which has caused places such as the Caralain Grass, Almoth Plain, the Plains of Maredo, the gap between Tear and Cairhien, and Cairhien and Shienar to become virtually uninhabited. I think it said the Trolloc wars and the War of a Hundred years caused some of it but that the populations have never recovered which they would do given the amount of land available of which some must be suitable for growing food (grasslands) and inhabitable land in the above areas amongst others.

 

I appreciate both of these things are my takes on it so if I'm wrong please point me towards the correct info.

 

Book Two - Can't remember the name of the Shienarian lord who commands the hunt for the horn but he goes on about it right before the "blink... blink.... blink" scene with Rand in the house where Fain and the trollocs killed that family.

[thisguy]

I cannot think of any evidence that the shrinking population has anything to do with homosexuality.

.

The same Shienaran load goes on to say how the Southern lands have nothing to keep them strong like the borderlands - no fight. So, they've been shrinking in size. I think this is true. Most western countries are shrinking in terms of population (in the real world).

[Morsker]

Food is the main limiter on population. Some people choosing not to reproduce has almost no effect; other people will reproduce more. As long as there's food. The population has been declinding because Ishamael tried his best to set back civilizaton every 1000 years when he got free.

 

Women choosing not to reproduce has more effect than men of course, but still I think not too much. Also it's not like gay women have any difficulty having children, if they feel like it. Aes Sedai just seem not to want children.

 

Except, maybe, the influence of a super-malevolent god-like being. That might also have an effect.

That's more or less what I said actually, but I focused blame on Ishamael. I wasn't covering every base, just arguing against "lesbians and/or man-haters --> population decline". We've seen Ishamael try to set civilization back every time he got loose, and we've seen the Dark One himself try to destroy the food supply. Population decline is obviously part of their plan.

 

Someone pointed out that in modern civilization, we have population decline even though there's food. But we're out of space instead, especially in Japan. And Randland is pre-industrial and definately isn't out of space.

 

Now I have heard environmentalists say that the best way to reduce population growth is to increase the social status of women, and in our modern civilization it makes sense to me. But that's about giving women more options, and them choosing another child less often due to other options, not about them hating men. And I suspect it's largely irrelelvant to the pre-industrial civilization in Randland. Almost everyone is a farmer, so having women with equal status to men still makes them farmers. And besides, we already have an explanation for population decline in the Shadow's efforts.