Where did Taim begin conspiring?

[A Rant Lord]

I have the Dutch version of the books, so I can't give the exact quote (if you have the English version, please quote it). In aCoS, prologue (my book page 77) Perrin's POV, Taim is entering the circle next to Rand. When he sees Gedwyn, Gedwyn moves his head slightly and Taim grins. Now Taim never even comes to a smile, let alone a grin. Maybe everyone was fully aware of this and I was the idiot that missed it. But I thought it was pretty early in the book where an obvious sign showed that Taim was already having his personal favorites in charge and they have are planning something?

 

Idea's please, and, if it was already obvious to all, give me a double facepalm please.

[Morden]

Remember it was a Black Ajah plan to break him out... He didnt break out alone, and he was most likely planted on Rand from the start on Demandred's orders. Demandred is in communication with several people in the black tower from what was said in Winters Heart. I.e when the guy Fain kills in Far Madding(cant remember his name) but he says that he was ordered by Demandred to kill Rand, then again by Moridin(except that Moridin was more concerned about the CK access keys.

 

So safe to say that it was most likely a way to get Forsaken and Darkfriends close to rand.. Dashiva etc.

[A Rant Lord]

Sorry, I made a mistake. I meant to say when the reader could read signs of him plotting against Rand. Not when he actually did it (I agree he was sent as a darkfriend from the start).

[Barid Bel Medar]

Just a small correction, Taim doesn't actually grin, he grimaces. Not sure how this translates, so forgive me if I am pointing out the obvious, a grimace = a twist of the mouth indicating some unpleasantness such as pain, disappointment or disgust.

 

A popular theory is that Taim was searching for Rand's angreal (which he lost sometime around the capture) and that Taim is disappointed because Gedwyn couldn't find it, thus the shake of his head.

 

I am not sure what would constitute as first signs, in retrospect, some things are made clear, however, at the time, the reader doesn't know.

 

Taim has from the very start, when he is introduced, been put under suspicion. Basically we look at everything he does as suspicious, however, the first actual sign that he is plotting against Rand would be in the scene you mention.

 

On the first read, it isn't noticable, since the characters are almost entirely unknown at that point. But Taim favours Gedwyn, Rochaid, Kisman and Torval, who follow him round as we see after Dumai's Wells. In addition to this, as you mentioned, him and Gedwyn have their secretive little moment, another indication. Finally, Taim suggests Rand take Asha'man as guards, and who does he suggest? Why, Gedwyn, Rochaid, Kisman and Torval. All who later try to kill Rand and turn out to be Darkfriends.

 

That's the first hard piece of evidence we see of Taim's connection to Darkfriends, which only make sense when they are revealed to be so later.

 

The first stand alone peice of evidence, that doesn't require retrospect, would obviously be when we learn of Taim's order to kill Rand, along with Demandred and Moridin's in WH.

 

Not sure if this is what you wanted, there is a whole list of things that condemn Taim, but these are the first actual signs that actually implicate him besides suspicion over his dodgy character.

[EmperorMayhem]

the only point i don't get, is Taim's apparent unwillingness to spend his time finding male channelers for Rand, in the beginning days of the BT, and then changing into a hardcore gatherer of darkfriend male channelers

[Mik]

Let me start by saying that I think the Taim we see in the books is actually Ishamael Transmigrated, with Taim's body "freed" in "The Shadow Rising" (the Shadow Rose allright).

Shai'tan Distilled (think Fain) Taim's mind and Transmigrated Ishy into Taim;s body in that same chapter (Deceptions) and used so much of His Power the Blight retreated for two miles all along it's border.

 

I think there's a good chance that "Taim" actually started conspiring (of a sorts) with Bashere the first moment he meets with Rand and Bashere in the Royal Palace of Caemlyn.

In that first meeting he makes it clear to Bashere he full-well knows that Bashere is a Darkfriend and from the Distilled memories of the original Taim he recalls a meeting during their battle:

 

What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?” Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. “I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. “They shouldn’t have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they’ll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won’t be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.”

 

“Taim,” Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, “you . . . !” Rand stepped in front of him, seizing his wrist with the blade half-drawn.

 

"Taim" (Moridin actually, totally at ease) just told us that Bashere tried to kill under parley flag and hid it. Nasty, that. On top of that he mentions in between the lines how all Friends of the Dark are to act; they are servants, who do one thing only; they serve and obey. The mantra of Shai'tan.

 

What does 'everyone not know, that you and I know', Bashere? You and I know you bend knee to the Great Lord of the Dark.

It scares the beejeesus out of Bashere who draws his sword in reflex.

[OptimusPrime]

What does everyone not know, that you and Mazrim Taim will?” Focused on Bashere, he seemed unaware of his guards, or their swords still hovering near his ribs. “I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives.” The mockery was gone; he was just relating what had happened, now. “They shouldn’t have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants? All they’ll really want to do now is serve and obey; they won’t be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers.”

 

“Taim,” Bashere growled, hand darting for his hilt, “you . . . !” Rand stepped in front of him, seizing his wrist with the blade half-drawn.

 

"Taim" (Moridin actually, totally at ease) just told us that Bashere tried to kill under parley flag and hid it. Nasty, that. On top of that he mentions in between the lines how all Friends of the Dark are to act; they are servants, who do one thing only; they serve and obey. The mantra of Shai'tan.

 

What does 'everyone not know, that you and I know', Bashere? You and I know you bend knee to the Great Lord of the Dark.

It scares the beejeesus out of Bashere who draws his sword in reflex.

 

Thats got to be the first time anyone has ever made me consider Bashere being a Darkfriend.

 

Although, what we also need to remember is, that even after Rand grabs Bashere he has to put some effort in to keep the guy from Moridins throat. Bashere isnt at ease once Moridin mentioned serve and obey, he is still flexing to get at him. Or thats how I read it anyway, seemed to me the only reason Bashere didnt do anything else was because Rand was protecting our mate.

 

Sorry, cant provide a quote at the mo, lent LoC to my bro...

 

Then again as you say, Bashere could quite easily be playing the part. But he drew his sword AFTER Moridin said serve and obey. Could be instinctive, but I have doubts. If that was a covert command then I dont think he would draw his sword as a response, he would do it as part of the movie for Rand...

 

Its clear Moridin is putting on a show for Rand regardless of who else is present. Im just not sure Bashere is in on it. I dont think hes a Darkfriend, I think he is what he says he is-the guy sent to headhunt Taim,and Moridin used him (without knowledge of even being used) to validate himself to Rand, "prove" he wasnt some randomer just claiming to be Taim. Get the identity thing done straight away, and wait for surface-level idiot-Rand to figure out what day it is.

[bcspeer]

I don't believe Bashere is a DF because of ToM (I won't give any spoilers). I also hope that Taim doesn't turn out to be Moridin because that is what everybody is expecting.

[Durinax]

I don't believe Bashere is a DF because of ToM (I won't give any spoilers). I also hope that Taim doesn't turn out to be Moridin because that is what everybody is expecting.

he isn't moridin, Rand would have made the connection by now, especially wiht his visions of him and the latest visit they had

[A Rant Lord]

Interesting, so Taim being a Darkfriend, is also surprised that Rand picks Dashiva in aCoS. He then suggests Torval, Gedwyn and Kisman (his favo's). Does this mean that Taim has no idea a forsaken (Dashiva) has infiltrated the Black Tower? Him being a darkfriend and highly ranked at that, you think they would have mentioned him.

[Vardar]

Interesting, so Taim being a Darkfriend, is also surprised that Rand picks Dashiva in aCoS. He then suggests Torval, Gedwyn and Kisman (his favo's). Does this mean that Taim has no idea a forsaken (Dashiva) has infiltrated the Black Tower? Him being a darkfriend and highly ranked at that, you think they would have mentioned him.

 

He knows Dashiva is someone high in the councils as it were, which is why he's shocked he picked him, after turning down the other darkfriends. (In my mind at least)

[OptimusPrime]

I don't believe Bashere is a DF because of ToM (I won't give any spoilers). I also hope that Taim doesn't turn out to be Moridin because that is what everybody is expecting.

 

Hahaha that is so funny, because the only reason people are expecting it is because me and Mik have kept the faith alive! And to be fair I think the only reason people took us both seriously on it in the end is because Herid did a mega post covering prettty much everything regarding the similarities. The ammount of resistance in the early days was hilarious.

[OptimusPrime]

Interesting, so Taim being a Darkfriend, is also surprised that Rand picks Dashiva in aCoS. He then suggests Torval, Gedwyn and Kisman (his favo's). Does this mean that Taim has no idea a forsaken (Dashiva) has infiltrated the Black Tower? Him being a darkfriend and highly ranked at that, you think they would have mentioned him.

 

He knows Dashiva is someone high in the councils as it were, which is why he's shocked he picked him, after turning down the other darkfriends. (In my mind at least)

 

In my mind it was Moridin not wanting Dashiva to be stuck with Rand because the Chosen are used for bigger things than being a fly on the wall. Moridin wanted a lesser Darkfriend to go with Rand so Dashiva/Osan'gar could help with messing the BT up in Rands absence.

[Mik]

Interesting, so Taim being a Darkfriend, is also surprised that Rand picks Dashiva in aCoS. He then suggests Torval, Gedwyn and Kisman (his favo's). Does this mean that Taim has no idea a forsaken (Dashiva) has infiltrated the Black Tower? Him being a darkfriend and highly ranked at that, you think they would have mentioned him.

 

He knows Dashiva is someone high in the councils as it were, which is why he's shocked he picked him, after turning down the other darkfriends. (In my mind at least)

 

In my mind it was Moridin not wanting Dashiva to be stuck with Rand because the Chosen are used for bigger things than being a fly on the wall. Moridin wanted a lesser Darkfriend to go with Rand so Dashiva/Osan'gar could help with messing the BT up in Rands absence.

Optimus! (I just can't call you any other name, because I like optimus better)

 

While you know I more then agree with you on 'all things Taim' and I even pride myself in maybe setting you on the right track years ago, I do think Moridin had another reason for disliking Dashiva as a choice instead of one of the regular Darkfriend Asha'man. And the reason is very simple: regular Darkfriends obey and serve much better; they are less powerful -true-, but to Moridin they are all insects (lflies on the wall if you will) anyway. He'd rather attach a more reliable (as far as that goes with Darkfriends anyway) tool to the Dragon, then one of the sceeming, backstabbing Chosen. The Chosen compete with Moridin, where Asha'man punch where Moridin points.

 

The Chosen struggle for position much more so -and at a higher level- then a fresh, young Asha'man would.

 

And as for 'messing up the Black Tower' goes; Moridin by himself will do just fine and I'd guess Osan'gar was more a liability then an asset. The only reason to station Osan'gar at the Black Tower -were I Moridin- would be so that the other Chosen (including Osan'gar) wouldn't wonder why none of the Chosen would be stationed there when the Black Tower was 'errected'. The Chosen would go meddle there without one of the Chosen openly being able to claim it as his domain. Osan'gar -with his set of skills- was the best option for Moridin, because he was harmless and the least usefull anywhere else.

[jwood01]

Am now on aCoS in my pre-aMoL reread. It is made clear that Taim's favorites are the only ones to be promoted to full Ashaman as of the prologue, IIRC, Logain's faction are complaining about this in later books, and about "secret lessons" between Taim and his favorites.

 

I was caught by the similarity to when Messana meets w/ Alviarin in the prologue of aCoS and teaches her travelling. Messana says she will teach Messana weaves, but Alviarin is only allowed to teach these weaves to people Messana approves of. Taim could have a similar deal with Demandred or Moridin, and thus only teaches secret weaves to DF ashaman, or 13x13'd ashaman.

[jwood01]

I will be sincerely disapointed if Taim is Moridin.

[Suttree]

While you know I more then agree with you on 'all things Taim' and I even pride myself in maybe setting you on the right track years ago,

 

Drekka that in itself should set the alarm bells ringing for you on this theory.

[Mik]

While you know I more then agree with you on 'all things Taim' and I even pride myself in maybe setting you on the right track years ago,

 

Drekka that in itself should set the alarm bells ringing for you on this theory.

Bwaha!

 

I would love to be there -lurking from deep shadow- to see your eyebrows climb up to your hairline when (not if) the quarter finally drops during aMoL.

 

(It's a good thing noone heard the mad cackle)

[roocifer]

Mik, after recent developments in ToM we know that Bashere cannot be a darkfriend...

However, that would be interesting if Taim ended up being Moridin. I've never heard that theory before. I'm still wondering where Demodred is...

[Valley of Death]

if Bashere is a darkfriend than Jesus Rand would have been able to tell as he did with every other darkfriend. He would have been blinded by the light at Maradon like his cousin (or whatever relations he was with that guy)

[Mr Ares]

Mik, after recent developments in ToM we know that Bashere cannot be a darkfriend...

However, that would be interesting if Taim ended up being Moridin. I've never heard that theory before. I'm still wondering where Demodred is...

Interesting, perhaps, but flatly at odds with several quotes RJ gave, such as those about why Taim went to Caemlyn.

[Vardar]

Mik, after recent developments in ToM we know that Bashere cannot be a darkfriend...

However, that would be interesting if Taim ended up being Moridin. I've never heard that theory before. I'm still wondering where Demodred is...

Interesting, perhaps, but flatly at odds with several quotes RJ gave, such as those about why Taim went to Caemlyn.

 

What quote was that? (googled it, couldn't find it) I appreciate it.

[Mik]

Mik, after recent developments in ToM we know that Bashere cannot be a darkfriend...

However, that would be interesting if Taim ended up being Moridin. I've never heard that theory before. I'm still wondering where Demodred is...

Interesting, perhaps, but flatly at odds with several quotes RJ gave, such as those about why Taim went to Caemlyn.

 

What quote was that? (googled it, couldn't find it) I appreciate it.

Mr Ares is refering to:

 

For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim's age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet. He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted -- along with other reasons -- and that has a wearing effect on anyone. Now that he has recovered, he doesn't look so old.

Recovered...yeah he has recovered... from Transmigration allright. RJ -with his Aes Sedai trickery- would hide Transmigration and call it 'a long and difficult flight that requires quite a bit of recovering' and you could certainly say that the original Taim 'had been rode hard and put away wet'. *laughs*

Note that 'being rode hard and put away wet' are passive; actions that are done to you. It certainly implies that the original Taim had no say in what happened to him after he was 'taken ..in the night'. (because that's what the note states)

 

Mr Ares probably sees that as cut-and-dried proof that Taim must be..well.. just Taim. And "Taim" certainly did reach Caemlyn.

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

small sidenote: I just posted some stuff on the Black Tower & Taim in the 'Black Tower Social' section of the forum because it had a stickied thread where they asked for theories. If you're interested, I'm sure you guys can find it.

[Vardar]

Lol. Ok thanks.

[Mr Ares]

Mik, after recent developments in ToM we know that Bashere cannot be a darkfriend...

However, that would be interesting if Taim ended up being Moridin. I've never heard that theory before. I'm still wondering where Demodred is...

Interesting, perhaps, but flatly at odds with several quotes RJ gave, such as those about why Taim went to Caemlyn.

What quote was that? (googled it, couldn't find it) I appreciate it.

(All quotes from the Theoryland database)

ODAS

Is there anything you can tell us about Taim's choice to head to Andor after his escape?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Well, he really didn't have much other choice. He's a man who can channel. At that time as far as he knows any Aes Sedai that gets their hands on him will try to gentle him again. But the word is getting around, there are men gathering near Caemlyn, men just like him, and maybe there are enough of them that if they stick together the Aes Sedai will not be able to take them down. So he has no other choice. He can either spend a life on the run or he can enlist. He decided to enlist.

ZAELA SEDAI

Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes Sedai?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Ta-eem (he said it phonetically). [Don't know how to write down how to say it, but it's not how most people say it.] Sure, he is a man who can channel. The Aes Sedai see him as a man who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place were there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes Sedai won't be able to come after him.

TED HERMAN

How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly. Traveling quietly is not in his character.

All of RJ's quotes on the matter of Taim's flight to Andor are fairly consistent - he was harried the whole way there, and had little choice about where else to go. For Moridin, who can Travel, leaving a trail makes little sense. Given that Moridin has the forces of the Shadow at his disposal as well as his own fortress, the idea that he had to go to Caemlyn makes little sense. Moridin has nothing to fear from AS. None of it fits with Moridin, in short. Plus we have Moridin supposedly busy running things up in the Blight, which is inconsistent with him spending most of his time running the BT. Contrary to what some people would have you believe, RJ was not overly prone to AS answers - while you might find a few, he has rather more answers that are either just plain answers, or a RAFO. As no-one has yet done a good job of squaring the circle between RJ's words and the Taimidin theory, we can either accept that RJ lied pretty consistently for no real reason, or that this theory is bogus.