Tinkers,Ogier, and Aiel/ Future of the Aiel

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Sorry for making a new post when I just joined the forum, but I didn't see any topics under which my theories would fit well. I'm sure that at least part of my theory has been posted before, but please bare with me.

 

The way I see it there are three issues that need to be addressed after the LB, assuming the it comes to a Draw or the Light wins:

 

1. The Seanchan need to be integrated into the Westlands or driven out of them/ The need to let go of the idea of having slaves/damane.

 

2. The Aiel must have a purpose, we've seen what happens when the Aiel are left purposeless.

 

3. The Ogier must disappear from the world for a time and the Longing must be cured.

 

I feel that all of these things are subtly intertwined with each other. In order to complete my theory we have to start with the assumption that the past AoL is a template for most, if not all, future AoLs. While there are many variations, we know that somethings remain constant. We can draw this as true from the fact that many of the legends of WoT are supposed to be the root of our own mythologies, and vice versa. So there are certain constants in any given turning of the wheel.

 

Now that that's be established, we can go on to examining the AoL and issue 2. We know that during this time Da'shain Aiel were basically peaceful servants sworn to the Aes Sedai. We also know that they were pretty well trusted and respected and an intergral part of Aes Sedai life. I think that the breaking of the world caused an exact reversal of the process of the creation. They start off as the peaceful DA and the become the Jenn, then the Jenn die out leaving only the Three Fold Land Aiel. Now it's important to note that the Aiel value not violence, but Honor and gaining Honor. They do not consider something debasing themselves if it brings them Ji. The entire basis of current Aiel cultural phenomenon of the taking of Gaishain, is touching someone who is armed and doing them no harm. So what I see is this, The Tinkers are the remnant of the Way of the Leaf, however they are mistrusted and they have no goals other than finding the song. The Aiel have no purpose but to fight a noble fight, but we have seen that the Dragon's peace will negate that. So I believe that a sort of reverse synthesis will happen. The Aiel will be tasked as the peace keepers of the Wetlands along with the Tinkers, and over time, the Aiel that went back to the Tinkers will help the Aiel assimilate back into the tinkers recreating the Jenn, and eventually they will become synonymous with peace. Nobody will want to harm the Aiel, because they fought to keep the Dragons peace and restore peace and have become the symbol of peace and ushered in a new age of Peace, sorry for using the p word so much in that sentence.

 

But how about the indemnity between the Seanchan and the Aiel? That brings me to point 1. The Seanchan notions of slavery and what constitutes their kingdom has to be changed. We know that Fortuona was a relatively good empress until she was assassinated. And then they installed one that wasn't so keen on peace. What I think must happen is that Rand must NOT bow to the crystal throne, but that Fortuona must see that she can Channel, and that channeling is not evil. I do however think that some concepts of the Seanchan will be kept, such as the idea of a strong national government, and social class sometimes not mattering for nobility. I see remnants of the Seanchan in the fact that people in the AoL take a third name upon becoming an asset to the community and world, similar to how the Seanchan take new names on rising to a new station. This is the part that I'm a bit sketchy on in my theory.

 

The third part though is that through a combined effort from the Tinkers and Aiel, the Ogier, and the Seanchan, the Aiel waste will be made suitable for habitation. We know that the Da'shain Aiel knew of a song that would make trees grow and the land flourish, hence the Way of the Leaf. The Aiel and Tinkers will help the Ogier to make the land grow again and become fertile in conjunction with the seanchan,who I think will resettle this region, allowing them to keep the Dragon's Peace in the new lands that they create. This will serve two purposes. Keeping the Seanchan from Looming over the westlands, healing the world to how we see it before the Breaking. This also allows the Aiel to show their strength, as it will be a hard task, while also gaining ENORMOUS Ji by basically making the Seanchan something like gaishain as they are "defeating/touching an armed foe in battle without killing them". This will also make the rest of the world stop fearing the Aiel but at the same time allowing them to be well respected.

 

What does everyone think?

[Lisa Campbell]

A bit off topic but if the Seanchan are integrated (re-integrated) into society and then by the time the wheel turns again to the AOL when war is forgotten, how is it that there is Seanchan battle costume during the War of Power? A recent thought that I can't get out of my head.

[pamela]

A bit off topic but if the Seanchan are integrated (re-integrated) into society and then by the time the wheel turns again to the AOL when war is forgotten, how is it that there is Seanchan battle costume during the War of Power? A recent thought that I can't get out of my head.

 

Exactly! I feel confused too. Maybe Luthair Paendrag was just imitating the AoL fashion...

[Durinax]

A bit off topic but if the Seanchan are integrated (re-integrated) into society and then by the time the wheel turns again to the AOL when war is forgotten, how is it that there is Seanchan battle costume during the War of Power? A recent thought that I can't get out of my head.

 

Exactly! I feel confused too. Maybe Luthair Paendrag was just imitating the AoL fashion...

I think it was held over from the breaking, and just continued to be in use till modern times

[Lisa Campbell]

Yes but what about how they came up with the design for that armour in the AOL when no memory of war existed. Only the highest scholars even knew the definition of the word.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Yes but what about how they came up with the design for that armour in the AOL when no memory of war existed. Only the highest scholars even knew the definition of the word.

 

I would expect that the style just survived because it's based off natural ideas and representations. So if we live in the First Age, and the AoL is the second age, it could just be a hold over from Japanese samurai Armor in a museum, they wouldn't associate it with war because they wouldn't even really know what Japanese people or armor were.It would be just an interesting curio, and then it's no so much of a jump to assume since they don't have any real clue about war that they would ask scholars about things like armor and swords. During the WoP they were outstripped because they didn't know anything about it, and they had to basically learn war craft. So maybe they just went and asked scholars and reproduced armor from what the scholars knew, design wise?

[Lisa Campbell]

Don't think so, for starters the present is the 3rd age, and the AOL was the second, so six ages in between. And who would want to look like a giant bug? Must have been a psycho who designed it in the AOL in my opinion. Bugs do not signify strength (what you would want from armour in Randland). Rather, make it look glorious like a lion or some such. Even myth is long forgotten before the Age that gave it birth comes again, which indicates no memory/historical record at all.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Don't think so, for starters the present is the 3rd age, and the AOL was the second, so six ages in between. And who would want to look like a giant bug? Must have been a psycho who designed it in the AOL in my opinion. Bugs do not signify strength (what you would want from armour in Randland). Rather, make it look glorious like a lion or some such. Even myth is long forgotten before the Age that gave it birth comes again, which indicates no memory/historical record at all.

 

The first Age is our age, Japanese Armor intact. Second age would still have remnant out of context and then the WoP happens and it comes back into use, then you have Hawkwings Consolidation. Third age would have a remnant of a remnant.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

As a side not, insects have been commonly used as a symbol of power by plenty of cultures. People used to think a beetle carried the sun across the sky.

[LoLPoR]

First, I have a theory that Ogier will teach Tinkers the song but their blood is too thin with intermingling. They will need the Aiel who supposedly have beautiful singing voices to join with them and then Ogier, Aiel and Tinkers will "relearn" the songs of growing. I've had that theory for a while now.

 

Secondly, scholars might have only known the word but there are always people who keep relics from previous ages as museum pieces or collectibles. They still knew what swords were so it isn't a stretch that some armor remained or a drawing of such existed to build off of. Also, if i saw somebody coming at me with a katana and samurai armor I know I'd be running for the hills not thinking wow what silly insect armor who'd wear that.

[Durinax]

Don't think so, for starters the present is the 3rd age, and the AOL was the second, so six ages in between. And who would want to look like a giant bug? Must have been a psycho who designed it in the AOL in my opinion. Bugs do not signify strength (what you would want from armour in Randland). Rather, make it look glorious like a lion or some such. Even myth is long forgotten before the Age that gave it birth comes again, which indicates no memory/historical record at all.

the bug thing does multiple things mammal based armour couldnt, 1 it inceases the 'size' without adding too much weight 2 requires less technical skill to make than would a mammal based one (which would have to be worked finer)

[shortkut]

Bugs make perfect sense for reasons i'm suprised i haven't seen mentioned yet: bugs have a hard shell or exoskeleton around their body. Armor is designed to be a hard shell around the body. Is it really a stretch to think they took inspiration from bugs?

[ChaosBorn]

Personally I think Rand will tell the Tinkers the song, or tell the Wise One's.

 

Why I think Rand knows the song: If the purpose of the song is to create fertility in the land and I presume something to do with the Ogier steddings, Rand might have learned the song as part of VoG, as he is one with the land and his epiphany in VoG has been shown to positively impact the fertility and general wellbeing of the land, is this mimicking the effects of the song, or does part of Rand know the song?

 

I also think that the question the Tinkers ask travellers is begging for someone (Rand) to go "yes, I have found the song" it would be priceless to imagine the look of shock on the Tinkers faces.

 

Anyway if Rand does tell the Tinkers/ Aiel the song the it would give the Aiel purpose or help them discover their purpose, and it might be a necessary input into opening the Ogier book thing which lets them run away from everything :/

 

It's not a great theory and can probably be disproved by somethings, Avi vision of the future possibly being one, but we're not certain that the future is fixed.

 

[Luckers]

A bit off topic but if the Seanchan are integrated (re-integrated) into society and then by the time the wheel turns again to the AOL when war is forgotten, how is it that there is Seanchan battle costume during the War of Power? A recent thought that I can't get out of my head.

 

You've got your thoughts reversed. Age of Legenders don't wear armour based on Seanchan, Seanchan wear armour based on the Age of Legends--the first thing you need to remember is that the War of the Shadow never truly stopped in Seanchan, they continued fighting until finally the Shadowspawn were wiped out, even though it took a thousand years. It makes sense therefore that Seanchan military practice--and apparel--is based on the Age of Legends.

 

We see other indications that Age of Legends culture remained more dominant in Seanchan as well--the gaining of new names in reflection of service to the people, for instance, and the stronger prevelance of the Old Tongue.

[thisguy]

Only a remnant of a remnant of the Aiel will survive the Final Battle - the gai'shan, maybe? Could be? Little bit?

 

Remember - the Aiel used to be called Dai'shan.

[Luckers]

Only a remnant of a remnant of the Aiel will survive the Final Battle - the gai'shan, maybe? Could be? Little bit?

 

Remember - the Aiel used to be called Dai'shan.

 

The remnant of a remnant needn't mean massive loss of life--indeed the modern Aiel are already a remnant, and that reflected a cultural change. My guess is that the remnant refers to Aiel moving being their inter-clan warfare into a society not strictly about war (though I do not believe for a second that they will return to the Way of the Leaf). One of the ways this might come about is that Aviendha may have to set aside her dislike of the Seanchan and guide the Wise Ones toward re-educating and rehabilitating them, instead of destroying them. A peaceful solution, as opposed to responding to their crimes with Blood Feud.

[The Fisher King]

So you envision Avi as a mediator...or perhaps a facilitator in a POST-TG world?

 

 

Fish

[Morsker]

I like this, except that I think it's important that the Ogier leave. It's not even their world.

 

Actually halfway through the first post, before I finished reading, I thought it was going to propose the Aiel leave with the Ogier! That would solve a lot of problems.

[Luckers]

So you envision Avi as a mediator...or perhaps a facilitator in a POST-TG world?

 

 

Fish

 

Pretty much, yes. I think the Wise Ones have the wisdom to teach the Seanchan, and their brands of honour are very similar--I could see the concept of ji'e'toh appealing to Fortuona greatly. I think Aviendha's role will be to teach the Aiel to look beyond the spear for answers to the Seanchan issue.

[pamela]

So you envision Avi as a mediator...or perhaps a facilitator in a POST-TG world?

 

 

Fish

 

Pretty much, yes. I think the Wise Ones have the wisdom to teach the Seanchan, and their brands of honour are very similar--I could see the concept of ji'e'toh appealing to Fortuona greatly. I think Aviendha's role will be to teach the Aiel to look beyond the spear for answers to the Seanchan issue.

 

I like that idea, it would be a very Wise Ones-like thing to do.

[thisguy]

Somewhere between book 2 and 4 it's mentioned that the suldam/damanes are the core of the Seanchan empire. If somehow that were destroyed/massively disrupted goodbye empire. We have seen the seeds of the sewn already.

[The Fisher King]

I like this, except that I think it's important that the Ogier leave. It's not even their world.

 

Actually halfway through the first post, before I finished reading, I thought it was going to propose the Aiel leave with the Ogier! That would solve a lot of problems.

 

Boy, you are TOUGH on Immigration, aren't you, LOL???! ;-)

 

 

Fish

[thisguy]

I like this, except that I think it's important that the Ogier leave. It's not even their world.

 

Actually halfway through the first post, before I finished reading, I thought it was going to propose the Aiel leave with the Ogier! That would solve a lot of problems.

 

Boy, you are TOUGH on Immigration, aren't you, LOL???! ;-)

 

 

Fish

 

Hahahahaha! Friggin Pointy-Ears, let them go back to where they came from. Taking all our good tree shepherding jobs from us!

[Zorlon]

A bit off topic but if the Seanchan are integrated (re-integrated) into society and then by the time the wheel turns again to the AOL when war is forgotten, how is it that there is Seanchan battle costume during the War of Power? A recent thought that I can't get out of my head.

The same exact thing doesn't happen every single time. It's not Rand of the Tweo Rivers being raised by Tam in third age after third age.

 

None of the details are identical, it's just the theme of the age which repeats.

 

Interview: Nov 30th, 2000

 

WH Signing Report - Matt Peck (Paraphrased)

Matt Peck

 

I asked that as the Wheel turned, each time an Age rolls around, is the Pattern exactly the same each time, or does it change?

Robert Jordan

 

He seemed to like this question. He likened it to a tapestry. When seen from a distance, each Third Age (to make it easy to track) has exactly the same pattern as the previous Third Age. However, when seen up close, there are differences. Threads are different, different nations exist, geography is different, different personalities rise to prominence. These changes, while minute in the grand scale of the Pattern, affect the Pattern enough so that while two iterations of an Age are almost the same, the first "Third Age" may be wildy different from the hundredth "Third Age".

 

A better analogy still might be two mosaics of Lincoln, one made of pennies, the other of pebbles. Same picture, utterly different details.