Mat Cauthon

[thisguy]

 

 

it's even deeper than that though. I think the point is we aren't seeing any "origins" because of the fact that "There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the wheel of time". These ideas and concepts are eternally present because the souls they represent are eternally present. So long as there exists an age, these things WILL necessarily become part of mythos. The concepts exist separately from the things the represent eternally, but there will always be instantiations of the concepts, even within our own reality because we are part of the turning of the wheel.

 

I agree.

[thisguy]

Couple more thoughts about Matt:

 

So, because of the traveling in book two (And one or two comments in the books), there's foreshadowing that Matt may betray Rand. Well, Rand is a Christ figure and one of his closest disciples betrayed him - Judas. There's also this, in Norse myths, Odin would sometimes stir things up between kingdoms and people so that they would battle. He did this because he wanted to fill up Valhalla with powerful warriors for Ragnarok - the final battle.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Matt has something to do with Rand dying and him doing whatever deed leads to that because he knows that Rand must die for whatever necessary thing will be the outcome of that in the Last Battle with the DO.

[pamela]

I've been trying to reason out who Perrin might be based on. Rand to some degree is based on Christ and Arthur (and other messianic figures). Matt on Odin and Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns. Perrin is a hard one - if I had to look make a guess, I'd say inspiration came from Conan, Thor and old European wolf myths/legends that were turned on their ear.

 

Here you have all possible parallels one can think of, I believe... I don't know what Linda (the 13th Depository creator) does for a living, but it seems as if she was a professional WoT parallels and sources digger, it's amazing...

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/character-parallels-perrin.html

http://perun.ca/Stories.aspx

[pamela]

As to borrowing things from mythology and history, whether subtle or blatant - to me Jordan was a genius in that. Just imagine that you have such a long story to write and right from the beginning you have to smoothly wove all those motifs into the plot, into your own storyline and characters concept so that they serve it, not dominate or seem forced, artificial. He managed to do that in such a meticulous way, there are no inconsistencies! And it goes the same with foreshadowings as well.

[pamela]

(Sorry, I wanted to edit the previous post and repeated it accidentaly)

[Luckers]

I think that's Jordan's genuis in this was that he wasn't trying to tell a mythological allegory. Instead he took elements of myth and used them to flavour a story that was distinctly unique--and in the odd instance that he used them to establish plot, he twisted them--my favourite always being Rand drawing a sword that wasn't a sword from a stone that wasn't a stone.

 

Compared to, say, Narnia, which cannot be doubted exists as a christian allegory, Jordan's works encorporate myths without being driven by them, or bound to their rules. Rather than trying to tell an old story in a new way, he's instead claimed the old story was a twisted memory of real events that he now tells.

 

Of course RJ is not alone in going about it this way, he's just always been quite good at it.

[Neophyte]

Just to throw in how Jordan seems to have thought about this:

 

GENOVEVA

Mr. Jordan, do you weave (existing) mythology or archetypes in your books?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Yes, I weave existing mythology into my books but I reverse engineer it rather than simply retell.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=135#40

[LoLPoR]

Ok I'm only on every few days so this may be late but Mat's Odin connection might not have been blatant to certain people across the world. Remember this series has an international audience and some people may not get certain mythological references. I didn't understand Perrin's connection with wolves as part of a mythology until I read about it online. He deliberately took parts of myths and history to make the point of repetition and to do that with more subtlety would have undermined the point he was making on the wheel having neither beginnings nor endings and that stories repeat themselves in different manners until legend becomes myth and myth becomes forgotten when the age that dawned that myth reappears. Wow that sentence had terrible structure, I used three ands in one sentence.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Darkside channelers can't touch Shaidar Haran. We don't know for sure if lightside channelers can't.

 

Doesn't matter who's side you're on, the power comes from the same pool. He cuts them off from the source completely. Not just cut off, they can't even sense it. He's a walking stedding. A walking evil stedding.

 

But the Chosen actually had to give something up other than just their allegience. RJ implied that they actually did a kind of "deal with the devil" kind of thing. That's how the DO can actually reincarnate them, he has a much greater level of control on the forsaken than say a regular channeler, so it could be that rather than the channeling.

[thisguy]

As to borrowing things from mythology and history, whether subtle or blatant - to me Jordan was a genius in that. Just imagine that you have such a long story to write and right from the beginning you have to smoothly wove all those motifs into the plot, into your own storyline and characters concept so that they serve it, not dominate or seem forced, artificial. He managed to do that in such a meticulous way, there are no inconsistencies! And it goes the same with foreshadowings as well.

 

I agree. He created his own world out of other worlds. Even myth has done the same - Satyrs and Centaurs and just humans and animals mixed together in a certain way.

[thisguy]

Ok I'm only on every few days so this may be late but Mat's Odin connection might not have been blatant to certain people across the world. Remember this series has an international audience and some people may not get certain mythological references. I didn't understand Perrin's connection with wolves as part of a mythology until I read about it online. He deliberately took parts of myths and history to make the point of repetition and to do that with more subtlety would have undermined the point he was making on the wheel having neither beginnings nor endings and that stories repeat themselves in different manners until legend becomes myth and myth becomes forgotten when the age that dawned that myth reappears. Wow that sentence had terrible structure, I used three ands in one sentence.

 

HAHAHA!!! Just so you know, I am in Queens, NY and am a third generations NYC-er. No Viking heritage either. It didn't hit me for a very long time about Mat's Odin connection. I used to gobble up Norse mythology as a child and teenager. I was actually rereading the myths when it occurred to me. I agree with everything you've said. I bought the first two books when they were already in paperback. I believe in 91, might have been 92. And the Dragon Reborn either came out right after that or was out, and I bought that, too. Reading it the first time, I could already see how he took history and culture and mixed them. The Caihienin seem to be French to me but their officers shave the front of their head like certain Chinese did at one time and their soldiers had the flags or coat of arms attached to the back of their armor as the samurai did when they went to war. I remember seeing the green man somewhere on the internet some years later and realizing that it was a myth from Central Europe that he made his own. I am a huge Tolkien fan and know how much that man took, mostly from Nordic myths, and turned into his own myths. I'm fine with it. It takes skill. All artists build on the shoulders of other artists, same as scientists. I'm a fan of RJs. Now, that I see where he found some of his inspiration, I'm trying to figure out what comes next for the characters - it's just a bit of fun. He does take a lot of the myth and culture he uses for inspiration and turn them on their ears so it's hard to say what will come next.

[thisguy]

I think that's Jordan's genuis in this was that he wasn't trying to tell a mythological allegory. Instead he took elements of myth and used them to flavour a story that was distinctly unique--and in the odd instance that he used them to establish plot, he twisted them--my favourite always being Rand drawing a sword that wasn't a sword from a stone that wasn't a stone.

 

Compared to, say, Narnia, which cannot be doubted exists as a christian allegory, Jordan's works encorporate myths without being driven by them, or bound to their rules. Rather than trying to tell an old story in a new way, he's instead claimed the old story was a twisted memory of real events that he now tells.

 

Of course RJ is not alone in going about it this way, he's just always been quite good at it.

 

I'm not a huge Narnia fan. You're right, so much of his work was inspired by Christianity.

[thisguy]

I've been trying to reason out who Perrin might be based on. Rand to some degree is based on Christ and Arthur (and other messianic figures). Matt on Odin and Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns. Perrin is a hard one - if I had to look make a guess, I'd say inspiration came from Conan, Thor and old European wolf myths/legends that were turned on their ear.

 

Here you have all possible parallels one can think of, I believe... I don't know what Linda (the 13th Depository creator) does for a living, but it seems as if she was a professional WoT parallels and sources digger, it's amazing...

 

http://13depository....els-perrin.html

http://perun.ca/Stories.aspx

 

Thank you, Gwen. Some amazing stuff in there. Far more in depth than I would have gone myself. :D

[NetSlider]

Slayer made a reference that hes like a wolf to Perrin. Maybe Perrin can take on Fain, he has the most personal reasons to go after that one.

[LoLPoR]

Rand must face Fain though, I would be sorely let down if Fain never faces Rand after all this time and our mighty and over written Lord Perrin Goldeneyes gets to do it. It would ruin the books for me if Perrin ends up being the man that takes down Slayer and Padan Fain and then becomes a king.

[thisguy]

Rand must face Fain though, I would be sorely let down if Fain never faces Rand after all this time and our mighty and over written Lord Perrin Goldeneyes gets to do it. It would ruin the books for me if Perrin ends up being the man that takes down Slayer and Padan Fain and then becomes a king.

I think Fain is Rand's job. Maybe, Ishmael's, too. I don't think Perrin will have much to do with taking him down. That's just my opinion, though.

[Muad Cheade]

Rand must face Fain though, I would be sorely let down if Fain never faces Rand after all this time and our mighty and over written Lord Perrin Goldeneyes gets to do it. It would ruin the books for me if Perrin ends up being the man that takes down Slayer and Padan Fain and then becomes a king.

I'm not sure why that would ruin the series for you but alright.

 

Anyways. We don't know how it will end up. Padan Fain did murder Perrin's family, so if the truth came to light (from the reformed Dain Bornhald), Perrin could seek Fain out. It's all speculation.

 

And Perrin won't become a king. He's the Steward of the Two Rivers, bannerman of Queen Elayne.

[Maleshub]

Rand must face Fain though, I would be sorely let down if Fain never faces Rand after all this time and our mighty and over written Lord Perrin Goldeneyes gets to do it. It would ruin the books for me if Perrin ends up being the man that takes down Slayer and Padan Fain and then becomes a king.

I'm not sure why that would ruin the series for you but alright.

 

Anyways. We don't know how it will end up. Padan Fain did murder Perrin's family, so if the truth came to light (from the reformed Dain Bornhald), Perrin could seek Fain out. It's all speculation.

 

And Perrin won't become a king. He's the Steward of the Two Rivers, bannerman of Queen Elayne.

 

If Queen Tenobia and Lord Davram Bashere dies, Faile becomes Queen of Saldea, where husbands of queens have considerable power. And if Faile dies, he could end up being crowned the King of Saldea.

[WolfDragonFox]

In this case i think RJ went a little to far. I mean some lines just screams to me when i read them , even if don't think that borrowing is bad in general there must be a portion of subtlety needed.

 

I couldn't believe this was said when i read it....in no way did he go too far in his likenesses. I think it was methodical and very much intentional. Every single character (at least the important ones) have some base model likeness to other distant mythological, theological, or other origins. I don't believe he's making any point per say by doing so but i do believe he is giving a nod of his cap at how legends are born by taking obvious influences from other characterizations and putting them all in here almost in a way writing the prescript for how those legends grew to be what they are today. Maybe Jesus was this super conflicted guy with a gift he never wanted or asked for but has to realize its his now and he must decide how best to share that gift either to the betterment or detriment to the world around him....oh wait thats exactly how the story of Jesus goes, as does Rand and the legend could be born from there. Also you could argue He takes Rand from Tyr partially who is the One handed god in Norse mythology and in some reckonings isn't the son of odin but actually the father of all the gods. Odin is a God of war, well did he start that way? or was he really just a man that happened into some circumstances that forced him to obtain the knowledge of war when all he wanted was to party and play jokes. I think its about building legends not recreating existing ones...i think he purposely borrows from mythology and makes it obvious so that we can maybe get a thought in our heads that...hey maybe this is closer to the truth of how the legend of Odin came about...he started as a regular guy like Mat Cauthon. And also you should keep in mind that this world of Wheel of Time is fantastical so all the characters have cool powers...so maybe since this is the 3rd Age, and the theme of cycles repeating is ever present...maybe this is the 3rd retelling of a story with 3 times the embelishment of the original...maybe Mat was just a regular guy with no powers that like pranks but also happened to be pretty smart and used that to be good at war. Zero Powers, just prowess, and boom by the 3rd Age he becomes a Ta'veren with the memories of past generals and a cool spear and fights battles that seem hopeless but he always finds a way even against people with powers when he only has his mind and a medallion and a spear. So don't criticize a genius writer for going "too far" find what you love and dont listen to others telling you where the influences come from....but now that you know, take that knowledge and question the legends of today. Will Hitler be a super villain with brainwashing superpowers in 1000 years....who knows? Maybe. Just look inside at the "legends" of the book. Jain Farstrider, so many books about his adventures, but yet he's a flawed man that did indeed do great deeds but likely not at all in the fantastic way the books about him portray.

[thisguy]

In this case i think RJ went a little to far. I mean some lines just screams to me when i read them , even if don't think that borrowing is bad in general there must be a portion of subtlety needed.

 

I couldn't believe this was said when i read it....in no way did he go too far in his likenesses. I think it was methodical and very much intentional. Every single character (at least the important ones) have some base model likeness to other distant mythological, theological, or other origins. I don't believe he's making any point per say by doing so but i do believe he is giving a nod of his cap at how legends are born by taking obvious influences from other characterizations and putting them all in here almost in a way writing the prescript for how those legends grew to be what they are today. Maybe Jesus was this super conflicted guy with a gift he never wanted or asked for but has to realize its his now and he must decide how best to share that gift either to the betterment or detriment to the world around him....oh wait thats exactly how the story of Jesus goes, as does Rand and the legend could be born from there. Also you could argue He takes Rand from Tyr partially who is the One handed god in Norse mythology and in some reckonings isn't the son of odin but actually the father of all the gods. Odin is a God of war, well did he start that way? or was he really just a man that happened into some circumstances that forced him to obtain the knowledge of war when all he wanted was to party and play jokes. I think its about building legends not recreating existing ones...i think he purposely borrows from mythology and makes it obvious so that we can maybe get a thought in our heads that...hey maybe this is closer to the truth of how the legend of Odin came about...he started as a regular guy like Mat Cauthon. And also you should keep in mind that this world of Wheel of Time is fantastical so all the characters have cool powers...so maybe since this is the 3rd Age, and the theme of cycles repeating is ever present...maybe this is the 3rd retelling of a story with 3 times the embelishment of the original...maybe Mat was just a regular guy with no powers that like pranks but also happened to be pretty smart and used that to be good at war. Zero Powers, just prowess, and boom by the 3rd Age he becomes a Ta'veren with the memories of past generals and a cool spear and fights battles that seem hopeless but he always finds a way even against people with powers when he only has his mind and a medallion and a spear. So don't criticize a genius writer for going "too far" find what you love and dont listen to others telling you where the influences come from....but now that you know, take that knowledge and question the legends of today. Will Hitler be a super villain with brainwashing superpowers in 1000 years....who knows? Maybe. Just look inside at the "legends" of the book. Jain Farstrider, so many books about his adventures, but yet he's a flawed man that did indeed do great deeds but likely not at all in the fantastic way the books about him portray.

 

I agree with a lot of what you say. I think he's using archetypes because they are found over and over throughout different cultures. That's his point. The wheel weaves them out slightly different but much the same over and over.

[pamela]

I've been trying to reason out who Perrin might be based on. Rand to some degree is based on Christ and Arthur (and other messianic figures). Matt on Odin and Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns. Perrin is a hard one - if I had to look make a guess, I'd say inspiration came from Conan, Thor and old European wolf myths/legends that were turned on their ear.

 

Here you have all possible parallels one can think of, I believe... I don't know what Linda (the 13th Depository creator) does for a living, but it seems as if she was a professional WoT parallels and sources digger, it's amazing...

 

http://13depository....els-perrin.html

http://perun.ca/Stories.aspx

 

Thank you, Gwen. Some amazing stuff in there. Far more in depth than I would have gone myself. :D

 

You're welcome. Although it's almost evil how time-consuming it is, good luck and sorry

[pamela]

As to the mythology again - to be honest, at first I - being a Slav - haven't noticed those parallels some of you call blatant neither... I had noticed some Arthurian stuff, yes, but then I had to lurk on DM a little bit to realise that if one pay attention, they can find so many real world references in WoT. And then I thought: "Light, how blind I was!" and got crazy about that. But, like I said - at first it wasn't blatant to me at all. Even though I was familiar with mythological motifs. I simply didn't know what Jordan's concept of WoT was and so, after reading tEotW, I found it secondary - 3 boys who flee a little village forgotten by time, get involved in serious business and become destined to save the world from the dark forces, while still feeling completely uncapable... come on, we've already heard that story!

[NetSlider]

Im not saying that rand will not face him bit that maybe perrin will b the one to finish him. This will leave slayer for mat to take care of. Just speculation

[Muad Cheade]

Rand must face Fain though, I would be sorely let down if Fain never faces Rand after all this time and our mighty and over written Lord Perrin Goldeneyes gets to do it. It would ruin the books for me if Perrin ends up being the man that takes down Slayer and Padan Fain and then becomes a king.

I'm not sure why that would ruin the series for you but alright.

 

Anyways. We don't know how it will end up. Padan Fain did murder Perrin's family, so if the truth came to light (from the reformed Dain Bornhald), Perrin could seek Fain out. It's all speculation.

 

And Perrin won't become a king. He's the Steward of the Two Rivers, bannerman of Queen Elayne.

 

If Queen Tenobia and Lord Davram Bashere dies, Faile becomes Queen of Saldea, where husbands of queens have considerable power. And if Faile dies, he could end up being crowned the King of Saldea.

In that case, Perrin would still not be king. He would be Prince Consort and would have no personal power other than those derived from his title of Steward of the Two Rivers and liege lord of Queen Alliandre.

[thisguy]

Rand must face Fain though, I would be sorely let down if Fain never faces Rand after all this time and our mighty and over written Lord Perrin Goldeneyes gets to do it. It would ruin the books for me if Perrin ends up being the man that takes down Slayer and Padan Fain and then becomes a king.

I'm not sure why that would ruin the series for you but alright.

 

Anyways. We don't know how it will end up. Padan Fain did murder Perrin's family, so if the truth came to light (from the reformed Dain Bornhald), Perrin could seek Fain out. It's all speculation.

 

And Perrin won't become a king. He's the Steward of the Two Rivers, bannerman of Queen Elayne.

 

If Queen Tenobia and Lord Davram Bashere dies, Faile becomes Queen of Saldea, where husbands of queens have considerable power. And if Faile dies, he could end up being crowned the King of Saldea.

In that case, Perrin would still not be king. He would be Prince Consort and would have no personal power other than those derived from his title of Steward of the Two Rivers and liege lord of Queen Alliandre.

 

Saldea is different than Arnor. He would be king up there.