To Live You Must Die

[Terez]

As for Demandred, I doubt he will have anything to do with Rand's death, despite his efforts. 'Almost' and 'not quite' are, after all, the story of his life.

I think he will. Because of his name I think he is a parallel of Mordred.

 

Lots of characters have Mordred parallels. Most of them want to kill Rand, or have wanted to kill Rand or promised to kill him at one point or another. But not all of them can kill him.

 

Demandred's Mordred name parallel is not any stronger than any of the Damodreds. For that matter, neither are Moridin/Moerad or Mordeth any stronger than, say, Barthanes or Caraline. The strongest Mordred parallels are Moiraine (through her own first/last) and Elayne and Gawyn (through their parents' mother-first/father-last names). Only Elayne and Gawyn have that perfect parallel, but one might argue that Moiraine is stronger because the parallel is in her own name, despite the extra letter. Moiraine also has a Morgan le Fay parallel which complicates her situation somewhat, and Gawyn also has Gawain, another complex character (and Mordred's brother). Elayne being in the mix...I dunno, I think there's something great about that. I hope she does play a role in his death, even if it's inadvertent.

 

I'm not sure if any of the Elaines add any significance to the Mordred question, but it is interesting that Elaine the Lily-Maid died of unrequited love for Lancelot, and her body was (upon her request) put in a boat to float down to Camelot with a letter for Lancelot. Gawain (in Malory) was found in the bottom of a boat, dying from wounds given to him by Lancelot, and on his deathbed he also wrote a letter to Lancelot. And then, after his death, he warned Arthur in a dream not to go to battle with Mordred the next day, lest he be slain along with his and Mordred's armies, and to instead make peace with Mordred and turn his attention to Lancelot. That kind of sounds like what Rand is trying to do with the Seanchan. So they meet on the field of battle under white flag, high tension, and when someone draws a sword to kill a snake in the grass, the armies clash, destroying the attempt to make peace (which was, of course, the Battle of Camlann, ending in Arthur vs Mordred).

 

Part of what makes Gawyn the character to look at IMO is Gawain's connection to the sun, perhaps referenced in my sig quotes. And then there is the betrayal aspect of the sig quotes, and the direct connection to Rand's death (via the sun rising two days late). And then there is all the foreshadowing of Egwene being connected to Rand's death. Mordeth was named in TEOTW, and Demandred was mentioned once, but Moridin and Moerad were not mentioned until much later. The Arthurian parallels were laid on thick in TEOTW, though Moiraine was not named as a Damodred until TSR (her Morgaine/Morgan parallel is clear from her first name), but they were most thickly laid in the Andoran court. First Elayne and Gawyn, then Galad, then Morgase and Gareth Bryne. But we had heard their story before we met them, including the story of Taringail Damodred, which solidifies the Mordred parallel for Elayne and Gawyn. From the Two Rivers, we already had Guinevere and Nyneve; both Arthur analogs are introduced in TEOTW; Lan might not have been a clear Lancelot parallel in the beginning, but for an Arthur nut, he would have been by the end of the book, despite the clear differences.

 

Aside from Arthur, there are other mythologies to consider. For example, Ragnarök. If Rand is Tyr, then who is Garm? The Cairhienin royal line is descended from a man named Garam, introduced in TSR (along with Moiraine's Damodred and Elaida's Foretelling about the Andoran royal line).

 

It is foretold that Tyr will do battle with Garm, one of the hounds of Hel, in the great battle of Ragnarok at the end of the world; when he does so, both are fated to kill one another. Some whisper that Garm is no hound but a wolf, perhaps a child of Fenrir or even the great wolf himself, seeking vengeance on the god who deceived him.

 

Sure, the Andoran royal line Foretelling can be easily explained by Rand, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Pain and division come to Andor, and this man stands at the heart of it—that can also be interpreted two ways.

 

Fenrir is probably best paralleled by Slayer, and Gawyn is paralleled to Luc simply because he is brother to the Daughter-Heir and First Prince of the Sword. Not only is Gawyn's name most similar to Garm among the significant characters, the name most similar to Garm in the entire series is (at least symbolically) Gawyn's ancestor. And Tyr vs Garm is very similar to Artur vs Mordred. Gawyn is also a bit of a guard dog as Warder to Egwene.

 

The other two obvious Mordreds Moridin and Mordeth already gave Rand unhealable wounds and I think Demandred is just about to do his Mordred part during the battle for Caemlyn (Camlann). He might not finish Rand off but I believe he will contribute to his eventual death.

 

Perhaps he will have some small hand in it, but I tend to think that the events leading to Rand's death will be mostly outside of Demandred's control, even if Rand's death happens in Caemlyn, and Demandred was the one who lured him there.

[thisguy]

Luc is also a Mordred parallel (in reverse). Mordred is Arthur's nephew, in reverse Rand is Luc's nephew.

[Terez]

But he doesn't have the name parallel. We're operating under the assumption that the name parallels are the best indicators of who is most likely to actually kill Rand; the character parallels are the next most important indicator, but it makes more sense to limit it to the first. Rahvin was also a Mordred parallel; there are several who don't have the name parallel.

[thisguy]

But he doesn't have the name parallel. We're operating under the assumption that the name parallels are the best indicators of who is most likely to actually kill Rand; the character parallels are the next most important indicator, but it makes more sense to limit it to the first. Rahvin was also a Mordred parallel; there are several who don't have the name parallel.

 

Gotcha. In that case, I wonder if Moiraine would be a reverse parallel and save Rand in some way. Picking up on the Moiraine Damodred = Mordred is a good one. It never occurred to me.

[MarkDiLillo]

Rand is definitely the broken wolf and he definitely will die. This is confirmed by him "knowing Death". Notice how Death is capitalized to indicate a name which indicates Moridin. Lord of the Evening is Moridin for obvious reasons.

 

If anyone will be Judas it is going to be Mat...though how that is going to happen is a mystery to me. He is the one who was afraid of betraying Rand after his venture into his multiple lives in portal stones, he is the one who is connected to money (30 pieces of silver, etc.), and he has already been hanged. His Luck will most likely will be revealed to be unnatural and be a result of the Shadows influence and somehow that scenario will result in him betraying Rand in some form. It will likely be accidental though because he is not going to end hanging himself or end as someone who is not a full hearted ally of Rand and the Light. There is no doubt in my mind that his Luck is going to be shown as a something Shadow related in the last book though. There is a strong foreshadowing scene in KoD related to this.

 

A hollow thump came from inside the enclosure, and acrid smoke billowed over the canvas wall. Moments later the nightflower bloomed in the darkness above Runnien Crossing, a great ball of red and green streaks. It bloomed again and again in his dreams that night and for many nights after, but there it bloomed among charging horsemen and massed pikes, rending flesh as he had once seen stone rent by fireworks. In his dreams, he tried to catch the things with his hands, tried to stop them, yet they rained down in unending streams on a hundred battlefields. In his dreams, he wept for the death and destruction. And somehow it seemed that the rattling of the dice in his head sounded like laughter. Not his laughter. The Dark One's laughter.

 

I have my doubts on anyone playing the Judas role though really. One thing that I am willing to bet on though is that however Rand dies, it will be a result of the good guys failing to protect him and embrace him. If not a direct result of the good guys killing him. His death will no doubt serve as a catalyst to unite everyone and there will be a moment of "oh crap...we should have been on this guys side the entire time instead of fighting him...now we're screwed."

 

The last book is fairly predictable. The only questions I have in my mind is what will happen to Rand at the very end (will he die, retire, or "leave") and what will Cyndane's role be in the ending. Everything else is...more or else...predictable. If not down to the details, at least predictable down to the overall direction.

 

Oh, and if Min will live or not is another thing I'm curious to see. Otherwise, we know the DO is going to lose, we know Rand dies and will return from the dead somehow, we know Perrin has to be there for Rand one more time, we know the three superboys are going to meet together in the end and thats going to somehow result in a win, we know almost every little piece that happens. We just dont know the details or the method of the ending.

[herid]

As for Demandred, I doubt he will have anything to do with Rand's death, despite his efforts. 'Almost' and 'not quite' are, after all, the story of his life.

I think he will. Because of his name I think he is a parallel of Mordred.

 

Lots of characters have Mordred parallels. Most of them want to kill Rand, or have wanted to kill Rand or promised to kill him at one point or another. But not all of them can kill him.

I think any of the Mordred character parallels (and not just name parallels) will actually contribute to Rand's death or else they have to have something more in common with Mordred beside the name. just wanting to kill Rand or just having a similar name with Mordred doesn't count.

 

Demandred's Mordred name parallel is not any stronger than any of the Damodreds. For that matter, neither are Moridin/Moerad or Mordeth any stronger than, say, Barthanes or Caraline.

Moridin and Mordeth have already contributed to Rand's death. The wounds they gave him are part of what will kill Rand. And both are Rand's arch enemies just as Mordred was with Arthur. neither Barthanes, nor Caraline are Mordred character parallels at all IMO. as I said, merely having a similar name is not enough. Demandred has a similar name, is one of the main enemies of Rand, definitely wants to kill him and lusted for Ilyena (just like Mordred lusted for Guinevere). Lastly, he seems to be in charge of the Caemlyn (Camlann) attack where we agree Rand is likely to die. I'm betting on him playing a role in Rand's death. But as I said earlier he might not finish Rand off. The role of killing Rand is split between quite a number of characters with parallels in various mythologies, not just the Arthurian one and I wouldn't try to guess to will land the final stroke based on mythology.

The strongest Mordred parallels are Moiraine (through her own first/last) and Elayne and Gawyn (through their parents' mother-first/father-last names). Only Elayne and Gawyn have that perfect parallel, but one might argue that Moiraine is stronger because the parallel is in her own name, despite the extra letter. Moiraine also has a Morgan le Fay parallel which complicates her situation somewhat, and Gawyn also has Gawain, another complex character (and Mordred's brother). Elayne being in the mix...I dunno, I think there's something great about that. I hope she does play a role in his death, even if it's inadvertent.

Moiraine could be a Mordred character parallel if she contributes to Rand's death as we discussed earlier. This remains to be seen. Same with the others although I'm very sure that Elayne won't be one. Another possible Mordred as I argued a while back is Galad. He seems like a very strange Mordred but there are too many formal similarities there. There has to be a reason for that IMO.

I'm not sure if any of the Elaines add any significance to the Mordred question, but it is interesting that Elaine the Lily-Maid died of unrequited love for Lancelot, and her body was (upon her request) put in a boat to float down to Camelot with a letter for Lancelot. Gawain (in Malory) was found in the bottom of a boat, dying from wounds given to him by Lancelot, and on his deathbed he also wrote a letter to Lancelot. And then, after his death, he warned Arthur in a dream not to go to battle with Mordred the next day, lest he be slain along with his and Mordred's armies, and to instead make peace with Mordred and turn his attention to Lancelot. That kind of sounds like what Rand is trying to do with the Seanchan. So they meet on the field of battle under white flag, high tension, and when someone draws a sword to kill a snake in the grass, the armies clash, destroying the attempt to make peace (which was, of course, the Battle of Camlann, ending in Arthur vs Mordred).

 

That's very interesting. Hard to interpret though. Verin has been the one writing warning letters to various people before her death but she doesn't seem to have any Arthurian parallels. Could be Gawyn too although I'm not sure what kind of warning he can convey to Rand.

 

 

But he doesn't have the name parallel. We're operating under the assumption that the name parallels are the best indicators of who is most likely to actually kill Rand; the character parallels are the next most important indicator, but it makes more sense to limit it to the first. Rahvin was also a Mordred parallel; there are several who don't have the name parallel.

 

Gotcha. In that case, I wonder if Moiraine would be a reverse parallel and save Rand in some way.

 

I don't believe there are any reverse parallels of that kind in WOT.

[thisguy]

As for Demandred, I doubt he will have anything to do with Rand's death, despite his efforts. 'Almost' and 'not quite' are, after all, the story of his life.

I think he will. Because of his name I think he is a parallel of Mordred.

 

Lots of characters have Mordred parallels. Most of them want to kill Rand, or have wanted to kill Rand or promised to kill him at one point or another. But not all of them can kill him.

I think any of the Mordred character parallels (and not just name parallels) will actually contribute to Rand's death or else they have to have something more in common with Mordred beside the name. just wanting to kill Rand or just having a similar name with Mordred doesn't count.

 

Demandred's Mordred name parallel is not any stronger than any of the Damodreds. For that matter, neither are Moridin/Moerad or Mordeth any stronger than, say, Barthanes or Caraline.

Moridin and Mordeth have already contributed to Rand's death. The wounds they gave him are part of what will kill Rand. And both are Rand's arch enemies just as Mordred was with Arthur. neither Barthanes, nor Caraline are Mordred character parallels at all IMO. as I said, merely having a similar name is not enough. Demandred has a similar name, is one of the main enemies of Rand, definitely wants to kill him and lusted for Ilyena (just like Mordred lusted for Guinevere). Lastly, he seems to be in charge of the Caemlyn (Camlann) attack where we agree Rand is likely to die. I'm betting on him playing a role in Rand's death. But as I said earlier he might not finish Rand off. The role of killing Rand is split between quite a number of characters with parallels in various mythologies, not just the Arthurian one and I wouldn't try to guess to will land the final stroke based on mythology.

The strongest Mordred parallels are Moiraine (through her own first/last) and Elayne and Gawyn (through their parents' mother-first/father-last names). Only Elayne and Gawyn have that perfect parallel, but one might argue that Moiraine is stronger because the parallel is in her own name, despite the extra letter. Moiraine also has a Morgan le Fay parallel which complicates her situation somewhat, and Gawyn also has Gawain, another complex character (and Mordred's brother). Elayne being in the mix...I dunno, I think there's something great about that. I hope she does play a role in his death, even if it's inadvertent.

Moiraine could be a Mordred character parallel if she contributes to Rand's death as we discussed earlier. This remains to be seen. Same with the others although I'm very sure that Elayne won't be one. Another possible Mordred as I argued a while back is Galad. He seems like a very strange Mordred but there are too many formal similarities there. There has to be a reason for that IMO.

I'm not sure if any of the Elaines add any significance to the Mordred question, but it is interesting that Elaine the Lily-Maid died of unrequited love for Lancelot, and her body was (upon her request) put in a boat to float down to Camelot with a letter for Lancelot. Gawain (in Malory) was found in the bottom of a boat, dying from wounds given to him by Lancelot, and on his deathbed he also wrote a letter to Lancelot. And then, after his death, he warned Arthur in a dream not to go to battle with Mordred the next day, lest he be slain along with his and Mordred's armies, and to instead make peace with Mordred and turn his attention to Lancelot. That kind of sounds like what Rand is trying to do with the Seanchan. So they meet on the field of battle under white flag, high tension, and when someone draws a sword to kill a snake in the grass, the armies clash, destroying the attempt to make peace (which was, of course, the Battle of Camlann, ending in Arthur vs Mordred).

 

That's very interesting. Hard to interpret though. Verin has been the one writing warning letters to various people before her death but she doesn't seem to have any Arthurian parallels. Could be Gawyn too although I'm not sure what kind of warning he can convey to Rand.

 

 

But he doesn't have the name parallel. We're operating under the assumption that the name parallels are the best indicators of who is most likely to actually kill Rand; the character parallels are the next most important indicator, but it makes more sense to limit it to the first. Rahvin was also a Mordred parallel; there are several who don't have the name parallel.

 

Gotcha. In that case, I wonder if Moiraine would be a reverse parallel and save Rand in some way.

 

I don't believe there are any reverse parallels of that kind in WOT.

 

There are - here's one:

Tyr and Fenris - Tyr tricks Fenris into being collared by putting his hand in his jaws as a sign of trust, Fenris bites his hand off after. Rand's hand gets blown off by Semirhage when capturing her. She later collars him. This makes them both Tyr and both Fenris as he loses his hand and is collared (Tyr then Fenris), she takes his hand and then collars him (Fenris then Tyr).

IF you look at the Nae'blis as the antichrist, he has 12 disciples like Jesus did.

 

I'm sure there are more. The myths rarely play out exactly as they do in the original mythology.

 

Edit - another - LTT/Rand is the Dragon (Christ) and the Aiel are the People of the Dragon (Christians) - they went from peaceful to violent, which is the opposite of how the religion moved.

[herid]

But he doesn't have the name parallel. We're operating under the assumption that the name parallels are the best indicators of who is most likely to actually kill Rand; the character parallels are the next most important indicator, but it makes more sense to limit it to the first. Rahvin was also a Mordred parallel; there are several who don't have the name parallel.

 

Gotcha. In that case, I wonder if Moiraine would be a reverse parallel and save Rand in some way.

 

I don't believe there are any reverse parallels of that kind in WOT.

 

There are - here's one:

Tyr and Fenris - Tyr tricks Fenris into being collared by putting his hand in his jaws as a sign of trust, Fenris bites his hand off after. Rand's hand gets blown off by Semirhage when capturing her. She later collars him. This makes them both Tyr and both Fenris as he loses his hand and is collared (Tyr then Fenris), she takes his hand and then collars him (Fenris then Tyr).

That's certainly interesting. I admit I didn't think of it that way. I'm still not sure how to interpret this. But in any case it's different from the character parallel you were suggesting in the post I quoted - that of a Mordred parallel saving an Arthur parallel instead of killing him. I don't believe there are any reverse parallels of this kind in WOT. RJ explained the rationale for mythological parallels in WOT which was that we live in the same world as the world of WOT and our legends and myths are echos of what happened in WOT a very long time ago. Reverse parallels with changing a character action to its complete opposite don't make sense in light of that explanation.

[thisguy]

But he doesn't have the name parallel. We're operating under the assumption that the name parallels are the best indicators of who is most likely to actually kill Rand; the character parallels are the next most important indicator, but it makes more sense to limit it to the first. Rahvin was also a Mordred parallel; there are several who don't have the name parallel.

 

Gotcha. In that case, I wonder if Moiraine would be a reverse parallel and save Rand in some way.

 

I don't believe there are any reverse parallels of that kind in WOT.

 

There are - here's one:

Tyr and Fenris - Tyr tricks Fenris into being collared by putting his hand in his jaws as a sign of trust, Fenris bites his hand off after. Rand's hand gets blown off by Semirhage when capturing her. She later collars him. This makes them both Tyr and both Fenris as he loses his hand and is collared (Tyr then Fenris), she takes his hand and then collars him (Fenris then Tyr).

That's certainly interesting. I admit I didn't think of it that way. I'm still not sure how to interpret this. But in any case it's different from the character parallel you were suggesting in the post I quoted - that of a Mordred parallel saving an Arthur parallel instead of killing him. I don't believe there are any reverse parallels of this kind in WOT. RJ explained the rationale for mythological parallels in WOT which was that we live in the same world as the world of WOT and our legends and myths are echos of what happened in WOT a very long time ago. Reverse parallels with changing a character action to its complete opposite don't make sense in light of that explanation.

Actually, I just gave you reverse parallels. And, RJ showed over and over and over and over again in his writing how something would happen and then the rumors would spread and they'd all be different. It's a game of historical telephone. By the time the rumors reach us in our time they have become myths, fables or religion and are not what truly happened quite often but some twisted form of the truth.

[wvlr2]

While I am mostly convinced that Lucker’s dreaded body Swap theory is the way it will go and the one that best fills all the requirements.

 

 

I have high hopes for Nynaeve pushing him out of TAR, like Moghedien did to Birgitte. It gives new meaning to “Waking from the Dream” line that has been mentioned throughout the series.

 

Not only that, but Mogy also mentioned using TAR to turn Nynaeve into a horse. So what if just as Nynaeve is about to “push” Rand out of TAR, he thinks to himself “I am the Dragon!!” while thinking about the creatures on his arms/banner, and like Perin has done several times unconsciously, TAR Rand changes into a Real Dragon just as Nynaeve gives that final push. ZAP he appears in the world as a Saidin weilding, True Power wielding, Heron Sword wielding Dragon. You think that the Forsaken shit their pants when they saw the Big Fade. What will they do when confronted with THE DRAGON!!! As an added plus, if they cut his fireball weave, he can Beltch at them with DRAGON FIRE.

 

And if Avi waits until after the LB to bed him, she can have a litter of 4 Dragons! Great way to make sure her “Vision” does not come true. It also explains Mins vision of 4 “strange” babies!

 

That would be so hilariously cool and juvenile at the same time. I don’t know if I could stop laughing.

 

 

 

COME ON GUYS we have to burn time waiting for the book, what else (Book clues) can we tie into this silly theory!

 

 

 

Terez -- just let me know if you want this moved out of your thread.

[thisguy]

While I am mostly convinced that Lucker’s dreaded body Swap theory is the way it will go and the one that best fills all the requirements.

 

 

I have high hopes for Nynaeve pushing him out of TAR, like Moghedien did to Birgitte. It gives new meaning to “Waking from the Dream” line that has been mentioned throughout the series.

 

Not only that, but Mogy also mentioned using TAR to turn Nynaeve into a horse. So what if just as Nynaeve is about to “push” Rand out of TAR, he thinks to himself “I am the Dragon!!” while thinking about the creatures on his arms/banner, and like Perin has done several times unconsciously, TAR Rand changes into a Real Dragon just as Nynaeve gives that final push. ZAP he appears in the world as a Saidin weilding, True Power wielding, Heron Sword wielding Dragon. You think that the Forsaken shit their pants when they saw the Big Fade. What will they do when confronted with THE DRAGON!!! As an added plus, if they cut his fireball weave, he can Beltch at them with DRAGON FIRE.

 

And if Avi waits until after the LB to bed him, she can have a litter of 4 Dragons! Great way to make sure her “Vision” does not come true. It also explains Mins vision of 4 “strange” babies!

 

That would be so hilariously cool and juvenile at the same time. I don’t know if I could stop laughing.

 

 

 

COME ON GUYS we have to burn time waiting for the book, what else (Book clues) can we tie into this silly theory!

 

 

 

Terez -- just let me know if you want this moved out of your thread.

 

I thought the Rahvin tried to turn him into a Dragon when Rand went to Caemlynn and followed him into TAR.

[Alonin]

Also another thing to think about, the SHeathing the Sword that Lan told Rand in tGH. I'll take that as more forshadowing than casual comments about Nynaeve not bbeing satisfied until healing a threeday dead person, or Norry not believing rand dead until he sat with the corpse for three days. In a way, Rand will sacrifice himself and let himself be killed.

[driedraspberry]

I like the metaphorical death at VoG but I seriously doubt it. Body switch is possible, but TAR rip out seems the most likely. Although Rand and Birgitte pose their own differences that could result in outcomes that also differ.

 

Birgitte was set to leave TAR anyway. It could have been as early as a year later than the day she was ripped out. Her age is screw up, but mostly she fits alright in the wheel's weaving. Rand being a HotH is very much purpose bound. If say his women rip him out after TG for the sake of love, it might not work out as smoothly as it did for Birgitte.

 

Dragon-Rand is a beautiful theory. A perfect twist. :D I suppose he lodges at Mountains of Mist when it's all over? Or will it be merely a werewolf like situation?

[herid]

Which prophecies are you having trouble reconciling? The only problem I can see really is the suggested chronology of the TOM dark prophecy, but that's only a problem if you disbelieve that Moridin will kill Rand.

Another thing I forgot to mention that I have trouble reconciling is the cover art of AMOL. It shows Rand, Nyn and Moiraine at Shayol Ghul with a solar eclipse in the background. When exactly in the timeline is it? The eclipse is already on so it would seem like this is after the darkness came. that should mean that rand is already resurrected and this is the final showdown. But the artist claims that Rand's left hand is behind his back to hide the stump (scroll all the way down in the link). I would have thought that either pushing out from TAR or coming back as a Hero of the Horn would restore Rand's hand to him.

 

Perhaps this scene is from much earlier - when Rand goes to break the seals but why is there an eclipse already?

[thisguy]

Which prophecies are you having trouble reconciling? The only problem I can see really is the suggested chronology of the TOM dark prophecy, but that's only a problem if you disbelieve that Moridin will kill Rand.

Another thing I forgot to mention that I have trouble reconciling is the cover art of AMOL. It shows Rand, Nyn and Moiraine at Shayol Ghul with a solar eclipse in the background. When exactly in the timeline is it? The eclipse is already on so it would seem like this is after the darkness came. that should mean that rand is already resurrected and this is the final showdown. But the artist claims that Rand's left hand is behind his back to hide the stump (scroll all the way down in the link). I would have thought that either pushing out from TAR or coming back as a Hero of the Horn would restore Rand's hand to him.

 

Perhaps this scene is from much earlier - when Rand goes to break the seals but why is there an eclipse already?

Is it possible he's resurrected but into his current body (not ripped out of TAR)?

[herid]

Which prophecies are you having trouble reconciling? The only problem I can see really is the suggested chronology of the TOM dark prophecy, but that's only a problem if you disbelieve that Moridin will kill Rand.

Another thing I forgot to mention that I have trouble reconciling is the cover art of AMOL. It shows Rand, Nyn and Moiraine at Shayol Ghul with a solar eclipse in the background. When exactly in the timeline is it? The eclipse is already on so it would seem like this is after the darkness came. that should mean that rand is already resurrected and this is the final showdown. But the artist claims that Rand's left hand is behind his back to hide the stump (scroll all the way down in the link). I would have thought that either pushing out from TAR or coming back as a Hero of the Horn would restore Rand's hand to him.

 

Perhaps this scene is from much earlier - when Rand goes to break the seals but why is there an eclipse already?

Is it possible he's resurrected but into his current body (not ripped out of TAR)?

possible but it's certainly not one of the more popular theories that have been mostly discussed thus far. it would also have to be something which agrees with the rules of the WOT universe so one would have to explain exactly how he could be resurrected into his old body.

[thisguy]

Which prophecies are you having trouble reconciling? The only problem I can see really is the suggested chronology of the TOM dark prophecy, but that's only a problem if you disbelieve that Moridin will kill Rand.

Another thing I forgot to mention that I have trouble reconciling is the cover art of AMOL. It shows Rand, Nyn and Moiraine at Shayol Ghul with a solar eclipse in the background. When exactly in the timeline is it? The eclipse is already on so it would seem like this is after the darkness came. that should mean that rand is already resurrected and this is the final showdown. But the artist claims that Rand's left hand is behind his back to hide the stump (scroll all the way down in the link). I would have thought that either pushing out from TAR or coming back as a Hero of the Horn would restore Rand's hand to him.

 

Perhaps this scene is from much earlier - when Rand goes to break the seals but why is there an eclipse already?

Is it possible he's resurrected but into his current body (not ripped out of TAR)?

possible but it's certainly not one of the more popular theories that have been mostly discussed thus far. it would also have to be something which agrees with the rules of the WOT universe so one would have to explain exactly how he could be resurrected into his old body.

We already have on resurrection - which is Mat. I wouldn't call Brigitte's animation, or whatever, resurrection (I don't mean if that happened to Rand it wouldn't be resurrection of a sort. I've said the same thing as many of you).

 

It has also been said that severing from the source and the taint could not be cured and that cleansing the taint is not possible. All that really has to happen is a series of events that make Rand's resurrection plausible.

 

What do we have:

1. Birgitte pushed out of TAR;

2. Resurrection of Mat by balefire;

3. The idea that you can heal yourself in TAR by some means - Perrin is able to bring fresh blood into his system but has not figured out how to heal himself completely, according to Slayer;

4. Severing cured

 

any other healing events which are supposed to be impossible or improbable that have been used that I'm missing?

[herid]

I don't see how 3 and 4 are relevant to Rand being resurrected after dying. 2 is out because there are multiple foreshadowing indicating that Rand will be dead 3 days. BS firmly ruled out balefire resurrection after a couple of hours.

Plus there are the foreshadowings about Nyn healing death. I really think it will be one of the previously discussed theories (or a combination of them). It could be that if he is pushed out of TAR he comes back sans hand although I find that a bit odd. Or that after he is pushed out of TAR he resurefaces in his old body although I would find that strange too.

[thisguy]

I don't see how 3 and 4 are relevant to Rand being resurrected after dying. 2 is out because there are multiple foreshadowing indicating that Rand will be dead 3 days. BS firmly ruled out balefire resurrection after a couple of hours.

Plus there are the foreshadowings about Nyn healing death. I really think it will be one of the previously discussed theories (or a combination of them). It could be that if he is pushed out of TAR he comes back sans hand although I find that a bit odd. Or that after he is pushed out of TAR he resurefaces in his old body although I would find that strange too.

As you rightly said, it would have to be something that conforms to the rules of the WoT universe. I'm just gathering all of those resurrection and healing type things that were never done or believed impossible to see what, if anything, we can figure out from them.

 

We know that people can enter TAR in the flesh. Rand did it more than once following Forsaken who did it. Egwene did it, too.

 

Rahvin tried to turn Rand into a real dragon while he was in TAR, and almost succeeded. So, a powerful dreamwalker can control the flesh of another in TAR. That might have something to do with the resurrection, too.

 

If the day dawns twice and we know that time isn't following the same line in different places (per Sanderson) it could be a scenario like balefiring as time is different in different areas of the land.

[Terez]

The role of killing Rand is split between quite a number of characters with parallels in various mythologies, not just the Arthurian one and I wouldn't try to guess to will land the final stroke based on mythology.

 

I wouldn't either, which is why I take in-book foreshadowing into account. And in-book foreshadowing points at Gawyn (and Egwene) more strongly than any other character. Aside from the (generally) presumptive nominee Moridin, Moiraine is the only one who really comes close. I don't think that success in this department is consistent with Demandred's character.

 

The strongest Mordred parallels are Moiraine (through her own first/last) and Elayne and Gawyn (through their parents' mother-first/father-last names). Only Elayne and Gawyn have that perfect parallel, but one might argue that Moiraine is stronger because the parallel is in her own name, despite the extra letter. Moiraine also has a Morgan le Fay parallel which complicates her situation somewhat, and Gawyn also has Gawain, another complex character (and Mordred's brother). Elayne being in the mix...I dunno, I think there's something great about that. I hope she does play a role in his death, even if it's inadvertent.

Moiraine could be a Mordred character parallel if she contributes to Rand's death as we discussed earlier. This remains to be seen. Same with the others although I'm very sure that Elayne won't be one.

 

Why very sure? It would be pretty easy for Elayne to play an inadvertent role in Rand's death, and she has the same name parallel as her brother.

 

Another possible Mordred as I argued a while back is Galad. He seems like a very strange Mordred but there are too many formal similarities there. There has to be a reason for that IMO.

 

As I mentioned on that post IIRC, RJ said that Rand and Galad won't have a swordfight, which pretty much rules Galad out as a Mordred parallel. He was never a particularly strong one anyway, neither in terms of character nor in terms of foreshadowing.

 

That's very interesting. Hard to interpret though. Verin has been the one writing warning letters to various people before her death but she doesn't seem to have any Arthurian parallels. Could be Gawyn too although I'm not sure what kind of warning he can convey to Rand.

 

What I found more interesting than the letters were the consistent ties to Lancelot. "The man who channels stands alone/he gives his friends for sacrifice." I have thought since TGS that this referred mostly to Lan. And considering the mythological parallels we've seen so far, I wouldn't expect anything that direct anyway. Sometimes it happens, but usually not. Guinevere cheated on Arthur with Lancelot. Egwene left Rand with no one else in mind for herself (instead she had someone in mind for him). Lan 'cheated' on Moiraine with Nynaeve. It's not going to be the same, though I do expect that whoever kills Rand will have strong Mordred parallels. That's why there are several Mordred parallels instead of just one obvious one. (Most of the Arthurian parallels are more obvious and direct, Merlin being a notable exception.)

 

Another thing I forgot to mention that I have trouble reconciling is the cover art of AMOL. It shows Rand, Nyn and Moiraine at Shayol Ghul with a solar eclipse in the background. When exactly in the timeline is it? The eclipse is already on so it would seem like this is after the darkness came. that should mean that rand is already resurrected and this is the final showdown. But the artist claims that Rand's left hand is behind his back to hide the stump (scroll all the way down in the link). I would have thought that either pushing out from TAR or coming back as a Hero of the Horn would restore Rand's hand to him.

 

1. The eclipse is 'imminent', according to Whelan. It is also annular, which does not cause full darkness, and even if it were total, the maximum period of darkness would be a few minutes.

 

2. I expect the eclipse to be a warning of the darkness to come. The light is going out of the world, but the eclipse itself cannot explain the unnatural darkness in the prophecies.

 

3. I expect the darkness to be concurrent with Rand's death. Not after it, and certainly not after his resurrection. All of the prophecies together (including the new one we got in chapter 1) indicate that the world will be dark the entire time Rand is dead. Light fails, and the dawn does not come. The sun rises two days late (as in my sig) without ever having set. Thus 'the day' dawns twice. The header prophecy of TGH also indicates that light will return with Rand's resurrection. Nynaeve holds the sun down at dawn (presumably by delaying his resurrection), and it rises at midnight (foreshadowed in the context of Rand, Aviendha, Moiraine and Egwene).

 

4. For future reference, you can directly link to an entry in the interview database by adding, in this case, #6 to the end of the URL (since it's entry #6), like this.

 

Perhaps this scene is from much earlier - when Rand goes to break the seals but why is there an eclipse already?

 

Why not? If Rand is the Broken Wolf, then this is probably when he gets consumed by the Midnight Towers, at which point I suspect he will be killed within hours (max), out of necessity. And the more time goes on, the more I suspect the consumption will have something to do with a mindtrap. That requires blood and saliva, and it can only be done at Shayol Ghul.

[thisguy]

Terez, are you saying there's no obvious Merlin-Arthur parallels? I'd say Thom Merrilon (last name sound Merlin-ish) as Rand's guide in the wide world is a good parallel.

[Terez]

No, I'm saying there's no direct parallel; Merlin is split among several characters like Mordred. Thom, Moiraine, and the Amyrlin. Whereas there is only one Lancelot, Galahad, Gawain, Morgan le Fay, etc. Though some would say that Elayne has strong Guinevere parallels, etc.

[thisguy]

No, I'm saying there's no direct parallel; Merlin is split among several characters like Mordred. Thom, Moiraine, and the Amyrlin. Whereas there is only one Lancelot, Galahad, Gawain, Morgan le Fay, etc. Though some would say that Elayne has strong Guinevere parallels, etc.

 

Gotcha.

[skalors3]

I don't post here often, but I wanted to say my two sense. I have always felt that people had over-thought this whole topic. I am not sure what will occur before the ending of the book, but I am certain that Rand will be left to be spun out the pattern at the end of this book. The simple reason being this: he's to powerful and any other ending takes away the beauty of this story. I will feel cheated if I receive any other ending. It will be cheap.

 

I understand there are a lot of prophecies to contend with here. The first being, to paraphrase, twice he'll be marked to live and die. It could mean future or past. There is a very real possibility that he was marked for the life he had already lived and died as LT. Viewing it in that sense will not only fulfill prophecy but also lend credence to the "be wary of prophecy" theme that was present in the first five books. As far as anyone knows, no one has been reborn in this fashion. He is unique.

 

Then you have the Finn's prophecy, which I always interpreted as if he failed to win, the pattern would be unraveled and he'd fail to serve it's will, therefore never living again. If Rand wants to live again, he must die. I think it would be a fitting answer for a dirty people.

 

One thing I am personally certain of though, this book will end with Rand's final death in this age. Anything else would be cheap.

[Terez]

What's cheap about it? It's only fair that the guy who has to make all the sacrifices can finally get to go home when it's all done. There's nothing 'cheap' about that; if anything, the price is too high.