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Jain Farstrider (questions)


NitroS
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Hello i have a few questions about Jain farstrider and your thoughts on his character. In book 2 ishammael said he was the one that led jain far strider into the steddings but doesnt elaborate any idea what could be the point of telling us this? Also i searched but couldnt see anything related to how Jain betrayed the malkier but what could his message to mat be saying tell a malkier that jain farstrider died clean? Which could also be foreshadowing that Lan will live cause mat will deliver the message to him.

Edited by NitroS
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In book 2 ishammael said he was the one that led jain far strider into the steddings but doesnt elaborate any idea what could be the point of telling us this?

the point is that Ishy is pointing out to Rand that if such a great man could succumb to him then he definately can

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Hello i have a few questions about Jain farstrider and your thoughts on his character. In book 2 ishammael said he was the one that led jain far strider into the steddings but doesnt elaborate any idea what could be the point of telling us this? Also i searched but couldnt see anything related to how Jain betrayed the malkier but what could his message to mat be saying tell a malkier that jain farstrider died clean?

 

Jain figured out he had been used by the shadow and shows evidence of being under compulsion.

 

KoD

“He was a fool,” Noal said grimly before Mat could open his mouth, though Olver did get his open, and left it gaping while the old man continued. “He went gallivanting about the world and left a good and loving wife to die of a fever without him there to hold her hand while she died. He let himself be made into a tool by-” Abruptly Noal’s face went blank. Staring through Mat, he rubbed at his forehead as though attempting to recall something.

 

He disappears mysteriously around Mat a couple of times with the inference being he was reporting to someone. This all leads to his final words in which he is sacrificing himself to save Mat's life and proclaims himself clean and out of the shadows manipulation.

Edited by Suttree
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Who do you think he could have been reporting to and how do you think he broke free from the compulsion? I believe it takes a very strong (willed) person to do so and the boy Nynaeve healed died with his mind pretty much wiped out. This didn't happen to Nynaeve with Moghedian in Tanchico but Noal/Jain was not a channeller, which I think makes a difference.

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Who do you think he could have been reporting to and how do you think he broke free from the compulsion? I believe it takes a very strong (willed) person to do so and the boy Nynaeve healed died with his mind pretty much wiped out. This didn't happen to Nynaeve with Moghedian in Tanchico but Noal/Jain was not a channeller, which I think makes a difference.

 

Anyone can have the will to resist. Verin's version didn't work a man she noted. (Although her's isn't true compulsion, the theory holds true). If any non channeler could, it would be a hero of near legend. Morgase resisted eventually, and she was barely a channeler. Her will gave her the ability to resist, not her channeling. Plus if he went to the stedding, maybe it loosened it's hold on him and that's how he was able to break free.

 

That being said, I don't recall him vanishing much when he was with Mat, that sounds real sinister.

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Verin mused that it didn't work on suspicious persons, men and women and like you said, it's not true compulsion. She thought men were immune because they are all suspicious of Aes Sedai, and she also needed a reason for cooperation already in the victim's mind for it to work on a woman.

 

As for Morgase, even after she was well away from Caemlyn, she still felt the urge to return to Gaebril. Lini had given her intel about Gaebril and she got angry at the usurper and left to find help to save her throne. Yes she is strong willed, but she is also a channeller, which I think makes a difference. So I agree that Jain was awesome to do so but if he was reporting to someone up until the Tower of Genji, how did he suddenly break free there?

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Verin mused that it didn't work on suspicious persons, men and women and like you said, it's not true compulsion. She thought men were immune because they are all suspicious of Aes Sedai, and she also needed a reason for cooperation already in the victim's mind for it to work on a woman.

 

As for Morgase, even after she was well away from Caemlyn, she still felt the urge to return to Gaebril. Lini had given her intel about Gaebril and she got angry at the usurper and left to find help to save her throne. Yes she is strong willed, but she is also a channeller, which I think makes a difference. So I agree that Jain was awesome to do so but if he was reporting to someone up until the Tower of Genji, how did he suddenly break free there?

 

Yea see I don't recall him reporting until that point, do you? In factg I don't recall any suspicous vanishings post him joining up with the Mat C Crew.

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Verin mused that it didn't work on suspicious persons, men and women and like you said, it's not true compulsion. She thought men were immune because they are all suspicious of Aes Sedai, and she also needed a reason for cooperation already in the victim's mind for it to work on a woman.

 

As for Morgase, even after she was well away from Caemlyn, she still felt the urge to return to Gaebril. Lini had given her intel about Gaebril and she got angry at the usurper and left to find help to save her throne. Yes she is strong willed, but she is also a channeller, which I think makes a difference. So I agree that Jain was awesome to do so but if he was reporting to someone up until the Tower of Genji, how did he suddenly break free there?

 

Yea see I don't recall him reporting until that point, do you? In factg I don't recall any suspicous vanishings post him joining up with the Mat C Crew.

 

For one he vanished when they were in Luca's circus. Recall Mat ordered him to go straight back to the wagon and later he came sprinting up from some other direction out of breath.

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Verin mused that it didn't work on suspicious persons, men and women and like you said, it's not true compulsion. She thought men were immune because they are all suspicious of Aes Sedai, and she also needed a reason for cooperation already in the victim's mind for it to work on a woman.

 

As for Morgase, even after she was well away from Caemlyn, she still felt the urge to return to Gaebril. Lini had given her intel about Gaebril and she got angry at the usurper and left to find help to save her throne. Yes she is strong willed, but she is also a channeller, which I think makes a difference. So I agree that Jain was awesome to do so but if he was reporting to someone up until the Tower of Genji, how did he suddenly break free there?

 

Yea see I don't recall him reporting until that point, do you? In factg I don't recall any suspicous vanishings post him joining up with the Mat C Crew.

 

For one he vanished when they were in Luca's circus. Recall Mat ordered him to go straight back to the wagon and later he came sprinting up from some other direction out of breath.

 

Winter's Heart?

Just word searched thru, it's going to have to be Crossroads then (Let me know if I'm correct. I thought they explained where he was during that scene, like putting his fish away or something (I honestly can't recall off hand and my Ipad only has up to Winter's Heart on it, I'll have to check at home) or was that the scene just before the Seanchan thing. Do you have any other scenes?

 

Regardless I'll check it out

Edited by Vardarmus
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Verin mused that it didn't work on suspicious persons, men and women and like you said, it's not true compulsion. She thought men were immune because they are all suspicious of Aes Sedai, and she also needed a reason for cooperation already in the victim's mind for it to work on a woman.

 

As for Morgase, even after she was well away from Caemlyn, she still felt the urge to return to Gaebril. Lini had given her intel about Gaebril and she got angry at the usurper and left to find help to save her throne. Yes she is strong willed, but she is also a channeller, which I think makes a difference. So I agree that Jain was awesome to do so but if he was reporting to someone up until the Tower of Genji, how did he suddenly break free there?

 

Yea see I don't recall him reporting until that point, do you? In factg I don't recall any suspicous vanishings post him joining up with the Mat C Crew.

 

For one he vanished when they were in Luca's circus. Recall Mat ordered him to go straight back to the wagon and later he came sprinting up from some other direction out of breath.

 

Winter's Heart?

 

IIRC it was in KoD...

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It's the first chapter of COT. They don't really explain his absence, Mat just guesses as to why he is gone. I distinctly remember this because I've never made the connection that he was reporting to someone. Every time I read the scene, I would wonder where he had been.

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Verin mused that it didn't work on suspicious persons, men and women and like you said, it's not true compulsion. She thought men were immune because they are all suspicious of Aes Sedai, and she also needed a reason for cooperation already in the victim's mind for it to work on a woman.

 

As for Morgase, even after she was well away from Caemlyn, she still felt the urge to return to Gaebril. Lini had given her intel about Gaebril and she got angry at the usurper and left to find help to save her throne. Yes she is strong willed, but she is also a channeller, which I think makes a difference. So I agree that Jain was awesome to do so but if he was reporting to someone up until the Tower of Genji, how did he suddenly break free there?

 

Yea see I don't recall him reporting until that point, do you? In factg I don't recall any suspicous vanishings post him joining up with the Mat C Crew.

 

For one he vanished when they were in Luca's circus. Recall Mat ordered him to go straight back to the wagon and later he came sprinting up from some other direction out of breath.

 

Winter's Heart?

Just word searched thru, it's going to have to be Crossroads then (Let me know if I'm correct. I thought they explained where he was during that scene, like putting his fish away or something (I honestly can't recall off hand and my Ipad only has up to Winter's Heart on it, I'll have to check at home) or was that the scene just before the Seanchan thing. Do you have any other scenes?

 

Regardless I'll check it out

 

Pretty sure you're recalling the Mat PoV when he was thinking to himself and rationalizing Charin's odd behavior during that incident. No factual data regarding the episode has been revealed to the readers to date. There was at least one other scene, but it may have been a similar internal recounting by Mat. Something about Noal being out of his tent a lot I think. Combined with Charin's earlier activities, the reader can easily surmise someone on the dark side is getting info from Noal but it's not definite

 

Does anyone think it's possible the trip into the ToG helped to clear the effects of Noal's Compulsion? We've see evidence that Noal was unconsciously working to free himself previously, but in ToG he does finally seem to be completely autonomous and actually "Jain" for the first time. A side-effect of leaving this world perhaps?

 

Edit: I see Clouded hit the main point, above.

Edited by FanoLan
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Verin mused that it didn't work on suspicious persons, men and women and like you said, it's not true compulsion. She thought men were immune because they are all suspicious of Aes Sedai, and she also needed a reason for cooperation already in the victim's mind for it to work on a woman.

 

As for Morgase, even after she was well away from Caemlyn, she still felt the urge to return to Gaebril. Lini had given her intel about Gaebril and she got angry at the usurper and left to find help to save her throne. Yes she is strong willed, but she is also a channeller, which I think makes a difference. So I agree that Jain was awesome to do so but if he was reporting to someone up until the Tower of Genji, how did he suddenly break free there?

 

Yea see I don't recall him reporting until that point, do you? In factg I don't recall any suspicous vanishings post him joining up with the Mat C Crew.

 

For one he vanished when they were in Luca's circus. Recall Mat ordered him to go straight back to the wagon and later he came sprinting up from some other direction out of breath.

 

Winter's Heart?

Just word searched thru, it's going to have to be Crossroads then (Let me know if I'm correct. I thought they explained where he was during that scene, like putting his fish away or something (I honestly can't recall off hand and my Ipad only has up to Winter's Heart on it, I'll have to check at home) or was that the scene just before the Seanchan thing. Do you have any other scenes?

 

Regardless I'll check it out

 

Pretty sure you're recalling the Mat PoV when he was thinking to himself and rationalizing Charin's odd behavior during that incident. No factual data regarding the episode has been revealed to the readers to date. There was at least one other scene, but it may have been a similar internal recounting by Mat. Something about Noal being out of his tent a lot I think. Combined with Charin's earlier activities, the reader can easily surmise someone on the dark side is getting info from Noal but it's not definite

 

Does anyone think it's possible the trip into the ToG helped to clear the effects of Noal's Compulsion? We've see evidence that Noal was unconsciously working to free himself previously, but in ToG he does finally seem to be completely autonomous and actually "Jain" for the first time. A side-effect of leaving this world perhaps?

 

Edit: I see Clouded hit the main point, above.

 

I'll have to stop my reread and glance through tonight for sure then. I thought he was free as of his trip into the steeding. So he was reporting to a Forsaken in the circus? Or a forsaken who knew where the circus was? Do we have any other clues that one knew where the circus was, I mean Perrin and Mat still have a death warrent on them at this time right? I think if the Forsaken knew where he was, he'd be easy meat without his army backing him up.

 

As to the tower trip, I always thought that was more, he knew he was going to die than he's acting more like Jain. The thought of death just made him want to be a hero again that much more. I never saw his behavior as shady before that anyway, but I'll pay more attention this time around.

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...

Does anyone think it's possible the trip into the ToG helped to clear the effects of Noal's Compulsion? We've see evidence that Noal was unconsciously working to free himself previously, but in ToG he does finally seem to be completely autonomous and actually "Jain" for the first time. A side-effect of leaving this world perhaps?

 

I asked about that in post 6 but I have no idea either.

 

@Vardamus: he may not have been reporting to a Forsaken but rather a high ranking Darkfriend. Or Graendal/Moridin could have some listening link like Sammael did with the messenger who offered Sammael's proposal for a truce to Rand in Caemlyn requiring a bit of privacy. Or he could have a call box?

 

Edit: New idea tacked on the end

Edited by YouMayCallMeElci
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...

Does anyone think it's possible the trip into the ToG helped to clear the effects of Noal's Compulsion? We've see evidence that Noal was unconsciously working to free himself previously, but in ToG he does finally seem to be completely autonomous and actually "Jain" for the first time. A side-effect of leaving this world perhaps?

 

I asked about that in post 6 but I have no idea either.

 

@Vardamus: he may not have been reporting to a Forsaken but rather a high ranking Darkfriend. Or Graendal/Moridin could have some listening link like Sammael did with the messenger who offered Sammael's proposal for a truce to Rand in Caemlyn requiring a bit of privacy. Or he could have a call box?

 

Edit: New idea tacked on the end

 

That would still mean someone knew where he was, and he was a hunted man. Tacked where?

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Last sentence.

 

If the person being reported to in turn reports in the dream, the Forsaken may not know a physical location, just a dream one.

 

Yea but they could tell them where they were, since they're reportng in their dreams. like hey, we're in Lugard (just an example).

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But that might not have been important to them. Another possiblity is that Valan Luca is Demandred. (not my first choice). The Forsaken didn't know what Mat and Perrin looked like or even their names until after Mat had left Altara and the circus. Semirhage said something like 'if she had known earlier', and I think Demandred looked thoughtful.

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But that might not have been important to them. Another possiblity is that Valan Luca is Demandred. (not my first choice). The Forsaken didn't know what Mat and Perrin looked like or even their names until after Mat had left Altara and the circus. Semirhage said something like 'if she had known earlier', and I think Demandred looked thoughtful.

 

Didn't the Whitecloak know Mat's face in Ebon Dar when he was outside his palace. Remember he had that flashback. How did the Forsaken not know?

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Ishamael/Ba'alzamon was the only Forsaken at the Darkfriend meeting in The Eye of the World. Carridin was there under the guise of Bors. And Shiaine recognised him when she came to Ebou Dar to deliver orders (interrupted by Shadar Haran of course).

 

Edit: Moridin told the other Forsaken only recently, TGS if I recall correctly.

Edited by YouMayCallMeElci
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Ishamael/Ba'alzamon was the only Forsaken at the Darkfriend meeting in The Eye of the World. Carridin was there under the guise of Bors. And Shiaine recognised him when she came to Ebou Dar to deliver orders (interrupted by Shadar Haran of course).

 

Edit: Moridin told the other Forsaken only recently, TGS if I recall correctly.

 

 

The stupidity of "Evil" astounds me at times.

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They have to be otherwise the goodies would have no chance against ruthlessness, meanness, nastiness, greediness etc, combined with cunning.

 

It occurs in real life too. The stupity with which most criminals and villians conduct themselves astounds me daily. I can't help but analyze a crime I see and wonder how he missed easy ways to make it better, more efficient and more deadly, while making escape easier. I'm an evil genius deep down inside. Well, maybe not that deep.

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