Callandor

[Bob T Dwarf]

aevogt -

 

That depends on which parts of the BWB you believe most strongly -

BWB also beginning on p 47

... With the Seals safely placed, the cuendillar disks were carefully hidden. ... Lews Therin, the Dragon, and the forces of Light had emerged victorious, or so it seemed.

 

If they immediately went mad, on-the-spot, who brought word that the Seals had been placed?  Who hid the disks?  Why was it thought that they had "emerged victorious?"

 

They were "infected" on-the-spot, but the effects of that infection took some measurable amount of time to manifest.

[Luckers]

Actually Bob they are not contridictory realities. All that it requires is that a non-channeler took the seals when the channelers all went mad. And as for them emerging victorious--it seemed they had, but they were not unscathed.

[The Lost One]

aevogt -

 

That depends on which parts of the BWB you believe most strongly -

BWB also beginning on p 47

... With the Seals safely placed, the cuendillar disks were carefully hidden. ... Lews Therin, the Dragon, and the forces of Light had emerged victorious, or so it seemed.

 

If they immediately went mad, on-the-spot, who brought word that the Seals had been placed?  Who hid the disks?  Why was it thought that they had "emerged victorious?"

 

They were "infected" on-the-spot, but the effects of that infection took some measurable amount of time to manifest.

 

Several times in the books, it is mentioned that some of the channelers can feel the dark one's touch on the world.  Nyn. especially notices this in the beginning of the series and Mor. points out that is what she is feeling.  Based on this, I would imagine that as soon as the seals were placed, that feel of the dark one's touch disappeared for those who could feel it.  I am sure with that, knowing what was happening, they could make the assumption that the seals had been placed. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aevogt]

This is directly quoted from the text of "The Strike on Shayol Ghul" which was written by RJ and therefore a more reliable source of information that the BWB, which wasn't.

 

"Lews Therin and the sixty-eight survivors of the Hundred Companions went insane on the instant. Within days they were leaving trails of death and destruction in their paths. By the time the taint on saidin was discovered, hundreds more male Aes Sedai had been driven mad, and what remained of civilization after the war itself had fallen into chaos."

 

The breaking started within a matter of days of the strike on SG.

[mralexcummings]

They were "infected" on-the-spot, but the effects of that infection took some measurable amount of time to manifest.

 

When people are infected with diseases, people have different tollerances in the amune system. Its possible to be a carrier and never have side effects or to not express some and still die from a disease.

I'm considering madness a disease :/

[Bob T Dwarf]

Note the "within days" clause in what you quoted.

 

As I stated there was a measurable amount of time between when they were "infected" and when the effects of the disease manifested.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

um...they went "insane on the instant."  thats in the very first sentence of that quote.

 

anyhow, it's not like someone couldn't have gone there to retrieve them in any case.  the remaining 69 channelers could have easily massacred w/e trolloc defenders and channelers there would have been left with the 13 forsaken gone.

 

 

We also don't know how many of the other Forsaken were at Shayol Ghoul at the time, and not caught in the sealing. Certainly given Ishamael was only partially caught, and Balthemel and aginor were caught that the edge it seems very possible that there were others there who weren't caught. And Shayol Ghoul probably did have lesser Forsaken stationed at or nearby in order to guard it. With Travelling an option the possibility of attack must have been known.

 

the thing is, there were ways to prevent travelling in the first place.  why weren't they in place at that time?

 

the simplest solution is that the anti-travelling wards(or w/e kinda weave) could not be tied off, while also requiring strong channelers to function.  the forsaken, confident that they were at the brink of victory, would have stripped their reserves(including shayol ghul) to participate on the front.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Just out of curiousity, when was "The Strike on Shayul Ghul" written?

 

 

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

derr...i assume you mean in the WoT universe, in which case it is 100 AB, otherwise, 1996.

 

lol, i had always assumed that the BWB and the strike on shayol ghul were identical accounts.

[aevogt]

According to the enclycopedia.WOT, it was copyrighted 1996 to Jordan and first appeared on the TOR website, although that link is dead.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Reason I asked is that the BWB carries a 1997 copyright and thus would represent further thinking on his part.

 

The author of the BWB did have access to both Jordan and his notes.  Jordan, obviously had to read and approve what was published in the BWB.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

the BWB is welll-known to be intentionally incorrect though.

 

since when has RJ retconned himself?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Quit throwing babies out with bath water -

 

The facts we know are that the seals were hidden.  Some, like the one at the Eye may have taken years to emplace.  Others would have been placed sooner if not immediately.

 

After a war which has lasted ten years, three days would seem immediate.    All it needs to mean, in this instance is that there were no significant intervening events.  Only your desire makes it mean "on-the-instant, mad as hatters, and on-the-instant they start blowing stuff and people up."

[BrainFireBob]

Bob, you need to learn to work at recognizing your assumptions.

 

The Hundred Companions went insane immediately. A significant number of other male Aes Sedai did over the next three days, all over the world, causing the Breaking. The HC spiralled out from SG, which was deep behind enemy lines.

 

Only if you fail to account for this fact, which we are given, do your assumptions work.

 

Moreover, the Strike was written by RJ directly, the BWB by RJ working with an editor. The BWB was intended to be approximately accurate, the Strike was not intended to contain unreliabilities. There is absolutely zero ground to claim Jordan retconned. Jordan stood by the Strike- ergo, *you* need to reconsider, we do not need to toss out "canon" documents on the WoT.

 

Jordan wrote the details out on the Strike et al *before he even started writing the Eye of the World*. He kept extensive, copious notes on all his nations, culture, and timeline before he set pen to paper to tell his story.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Now who's making assumptions?

 

Here are some facts for you. 

 

When" Jordan wrote the details out on the Strike et al *before he even started writing the Eye of the World*." 

 

Fact: He was expecting to write a trilogy. 

Fact: He wrote 11 books plus one prequel instead. 

Fact: There is still at least one more volume to come.

Fact: Strike was a slight polish of his original notes. 

Fact: you don't make 13+ volumes out of a Trilogy unless you extensively revise your ideas and your notes, as well. 

 

Fact: "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" was a totally fresh 12 year newer take on what he had begun.

 

Fact: Taint Madness, as we see multiple times throughout the books, is a progressive disease. 

Fact: It's effects manifest according to a variable timescale depending on the male channeler.

 

Fact: The details as differently laid out in the two sources reflect his later thinking on how Taint Madness really would work.

 

 

 

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Fact: Taint Madness, as we see multiple times throughout the books, is a progressive disease. 

Fact: It's effects manifest according to a variable timescale depending on the male channeler.

 

the bottom one is proven.  the top one is irrelevant in this situation.  how many times have we seen in the books the DO 'counterstroking' a group of channelers with the taint?  you can expect that to be more intense than simply having to endure the aftereffects.  its like comparing poisons(the counterstroke) and toxins(the taint on saidin), both will eventually kill you(drive you mad), but its pretty definitive which one will do it first.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes it is.

 

Yet the counterstroke seldom ( if ever ) proved immediately fatal.  It wouldn't have been very effective if it did.

 

It merely made sure that those who had participated in the Strike ( and thus the Heroes of the day ) were the very first to go mad ( and thus create the most chaos ) as a result.

 

The DO is all about chaos.  Chaos then.  Chaos now.  Chaos forever.  Few things will ever be instantaneous where the DO is concerned.

 

I know if you consider the definitions at Dictionary.com you'd like immediate to take any of the first three meanings.  I commend to you any of the last three meanings.

[BrainFireBob]

Fact: The story overall construction is divisible into trilogy arcs.

 

Fact: Jordan hoped for a trilogy, but was very clear it would take " as long as it took."

 

FACT: TAINT MADNESS CAN BE IMMEDIATE OR PROGRESSIVE.

 

Fact: Taint "rot" is progressive. This is separate from the madness.

 

Fact: Jordan never, ever indicated the Strike was anything other than 100% accurate.

 

Fact: You, Bob, are making a huge number of assumptions about Jordan's writing style. If you wrote something, your ideas might evolve to the point the story radically changed. Jordan put over a decade of prep work working out details before he started writing the story.

 

Fact: The expansion of the series has nothing to do with changing what happened- Jordan has always been very clear about about that. It's how long it took him to put all the elements in place he underestimated, badly. Not what occured.

[Bob T Dwarf]

BFB there are simply too many holes in that last post to begin to answer.

 

First he spent approximately 5-6 years thinking about and making notes about the series before he wrote "The Eye of the World", not ten.  He started trying to work out the plot and details in 1984.  "The Eye of the World" carries a 1990 copyright.

 

I assume ( notice when I make assumptions I do my best to label them as such ) that when you wrote "Strike" you meant "counterstroke."

 

Certainly it was 100% accurate.  Every one of the channelers who participated in the Strike and survived went mad.  They simply did not begin foaming at the mouth on-the-spot.

 

And, of course the story still begins where he intended and will end where he intended.  It's all those troublesome middle-bits that got expanded and contracted and padded and reordered exactly so that it would end as he intended.

 

The Strike was backstory.  Not part of the series, as such at all.  People were interested, so he put a quicky polish on his notes and posted that slightly polished version.  He then involved himself in a project to flesh-out the whole backstory of the Mythos.  That is the BWB.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

no, he means the strike on shayol ghul

[Bob T Dwarf]

If that's what he meant, OK.

 

Since Jordan himself put out "The Strike on Shayul Ghul", I'm entirely confident it is an accurate reflection of his notes at that time.  Just as I'm equally confident that the version that appears in the BWB is an equally accurate reflection of his notes one year later.

[Jehaine]

Since the discussion appears to ask for this, here's a link for you all:

 

http://home.wanadoo.nl/nynaeve/shayolguhl.html

 

Which would be the document in question. Makes discussing it a mite easier, i reckon. ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

And, the most relevant part to this discussion is the last:

With Latra Posae's opposition continuing in the face of these events, and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well), Lews Therin resolved to carry out his plan without the approval of, or even approaching, the Hall. Plainly it was going to be impossible to hold the huge sa'angreal long enough for the access ter'angreal to be smuggled out. In Lews Therin's view, there was no longer any choice.

 

A group of powerful young male Aes Sedai, vocal in their arguements (apparently to the point of several times disrupting meetings of the Hall), had formed in support of Lews Therin during the struggle with Latra Posae, a group popularly called the Hundred Companions, though in actuality they numbered one hundred and thirteen at this point. As the highest military leader for the Light, Lews Therin was able to assemble a force of some ten thousand soldiers unbeknownst to the Hall. With that force and the Hundred Companions, he launched his planned attack at Shayol Ghul.

 

Exactly what occured that day can never be known, only the results. Of the soldiers, not a single man or woman returned to give any account. The seals were placed safely, without ripping open the Dark One's prison as many opponents had feared. By chance, all thirteen of the Forsaken were at Shayol Ghul (perhaps summonded for a conference with the Dark One?), and they were trapped in the sealing, thus decapitating at one stroke the Shadow's leadership. Though most of the world was held for the Shadow, if that had been the whole result it is certain that over the next few years the Shadow would have been extinguished all across the face of the earth. Civilization had retained a large degree of cohesion in the areas held by the Light, far more so than in those held by the Shadow. Deprived of their highest levels (and also perhaps because of the loss of the Dark One's infuence) the Shadowsworn fell into struggles among themselves for power, dividing into warring, vulnerable well before the Breaking progressed to a point that made the war the least of anyone's concerns. In any case, the War of the Shadow must be said to have ended that day at Shayol Ghul. So it is generally recorded.

 

But that was not the only result, of course. Instead, there was the counterstroke from the Dark One at the moment of sealing, and saidin itself was tainted. Lews Therin and the sixty-eight survivors of the Hundred Companions went insane on the instant. Within days they were leaving trails of death and destruction in their paths. By the time the taint on saidin was discovered, hundreds more male Aes Sedai had been driven mad, and what remained of civilization after the war itself had fallen into chaos. Even informing all the remaining sane male Aes Sedai of the danger was now impossible. That fateful day at Shayol Ghul ended the war, and began the Breaking of the World.

 

So, it seems each side is partially right.  Even though the original plan, which had included seven females had also called for 20, 000 warmen, the Strike that was actually launched contained no women and only 10,000 warmen.

 

It does indeed say that those who survived "went insane on the instant".  But, it also says that it was days later before they actually started Breaking the World.

 

I'd call this one even on points.

 

Note to self:  Do NOT type men when you mean women

[BrainFireBob]

No, I'd call this one you being caught out on your ignorance. How can you not have read the Strike?

 

Secondly, publishing dates? You do realize that there's a time lag between initial publication and final release- excepting of course when it's a direct web release for free by the author. Meaning the two documents were released from Jordan simultaneously.

 

Jordan began tossing around the ideas for Wheel of Time in the 70s, hence my "10 years" remark. He started making the extensive note collection about 6 years prior to publishing Eye.

 

On this one, Bob, I was 100% right and knew exactly what I was talking about. Nice try at digs, though.

 

 

To tie it all together for you:

 

The Taint was noticed immediately, but thought harmless. Saidin still worked the same way.

 

The HC went insane immediately, but were in Shadow-controlled territory, so it was some time before anyone knew what had happened to them.

 

It just took awhile for other male Aes Sedai to start going nuts, and when they realized the cause, too many had already gone.

 

Hence the Breaking.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on March 23, 2008, 06:58:17 PM

We also don't know how many of the other Forsaken were at Shayol Ghoul at the time, and not caught in the sealing. Certainly given Ishamael was only partially caught, and Balthemel and aginor were caught that the edge it seems very possible that there were others there who weren't caught. And Shayol Ghoul probably did have lesser Forsaken stationed at or nearby in order to guard it. With Travelling an option the possibility of attack must have been known.

 

 

the thing is, there were ways to prevent travelling in the first place.  why weren't they in place at that time?

 

the simplest solution is that the anti-travelling wards(or w/e kinda weave) could not be tied off, while also requiring strong channelers to function.  the forsaken, confident that they were at the brink of victory, would have stripped their reserves(including shayol ghul) to participate on the front.

 

But there were also ways to get around anti-travelling wards. I don't think we have the basis to make any assumptions at this stage--and i certainly don't think that given the Shadow was the stronger of the two that they would abandon the defence of Shayol Ghoul at a time when they knew the Light was developing a method to attack the bore--I'm speaking of the Choedan Kal, which the Forsaken did not know were no longer and option, and which Graendal makes clear the Shadow were aware of.

 

Quit throwing babies out with bath water -

 

The facts we know are that the seals were hidden.  Some, like the one at the Eye may have taken years to emplace.  Others would have been placed sooner if not immediately.

 

After a war which has lasted ten years, three days would seem immediate.    All it needs to mean, in this instance is that there were no significant intervening events.  Only your desire makes it mean "on-the-instant, mad as hatters, and on-the-instant they start blowing stuff and people up."

 

I'm sorry bud, but it is you that is in quicksand here. We have a statement that they went mad on the instant, and we have people other than channelers nearby capable of getting the seals away.

 

To fight a direct quote you need a contradiction, you have none. The text says they went mad on the instant, and there is nothing to suggest that they didn't, nor that they needn't.