My Take on the RJ/BS Split

[XoMeltdownoX]

The Wheel of Time is not really an exemplar of either characterization OR plot. Many of the characters are rather flat, and many others are extremely familiar archetypes. To be honest, characterization was a weakness of Jordan's, not a strength. And the plot is derivative even by the standards of genre fiction.

 

Where Jordan excelled was in world-building. And, the world having been built, another author could (and is) ably completing the series.

 

I agree with randsc. And in pains me to say that, so you know what he said must be simple fact..

 

I'm afraid I agree with Xeratul regarding the lack of re-readability of Brandon's works. Whilst, yes, the plot gratification that came through the first reading of tGS and TofM held them, and held them very well, it was the quality and layering of the prose that lent RJ's works their re-readability. When it comes down to it, whatever flaws RJ had and whatever skills Brandon has, does not change that the writing of both books is unpolished, clunky, and superficial.

 

Plot-gratification will suffice the first read. Maybe the second... Brandon's work does not hold up to the third.

 

That about sums it up. I have said much the same in various threads in the past. I do have hope for AMoL however. Team Jordan seems to be aware of at least some of the issues. The extra polish and Jordan's finish will hopefully be enough to make this a great book. RJ certainly deserves more than what he got with the last two.

 

As an aside when people talk about the increased pace you do realize that this is just where we are in the arc of the books correct? Yes 8-10(they would have been regardless of who wrote them

) were slow but KoD showed clearly that RJ had things pointed in the right direction. it's not as if these last two books would have been similar to CoT as we are in a vastly different part of the story. The argument that they would have suffered in pace if RJ had been the author is absurd.

 

 

You know there has to be an end right? A lot more threads are going to end than new one starting. It seems like you and Luckers expect the books to keep bringing more and more to the table the way the first bunch did and never actually wrap anything up. I mean the last book is not going to have massive character development and RJ's subtle flash-forwards to.... nothing... most of the dangling threads will be solved (or left dangling) and many fewer, if any, started. That's the way it'd be with RJ too. That's the way the last book of such a long series almost has to go down. It's not like your typical trilogy where you can fit near-complete stories into each volume. WOT got far too wide for that.

 

So you can rail on us uncouth louts for being cowed by "plot gratification" but what we're cowed by is the realism that things need to wrap up... the plots need to end. I mean Luckers basically said it himself defending CoT, it's a great setup book right? Well AMoL can't be a great setup book. It will and should be the exact opposite.

 

I would rather reread "See Spot Run" than reread CoT which if i recall correctly was 100% RJ and zero BS.

 

I just found that funny. Hehe. But of course lets trash BS for ruining WOT under the guise of "author critique", because it's for Brandon's own good that Suttree makes sure everyone know's how terrible an author he is. Gotta make sure people know exactly why they're wrong to like his books!

 

I also love "Team Jordan seems aware". As if they didn't have any say in the first two books the guy wrote. Or if those books didn't have the same editor as all the others. But it's ALL BS's fault!

 

so stop complaining and be lucky that someone did take the job otherwise we would be left with 1000 monkeys to write it and it would take an eternity .

 

See. Right here. This is what I don't understand. How did we reach a place in that reasoned critique of a literary work turns into disrespect for the author or complaining. That stance just blows my mind.

 

See above.

 

And I thought I multi-quoted some stuff about the circus being "Comedy Gold" but it's not here and i'm too lazy to go back. So I'll just add that the Circus was in no way funny. Nynaeve's whole thing about Egeanin "attacking" her was tragic, not funny. It showed the worst of Nynaeve. A hypocrite many times over who couldn't even admit truth of things to herself in her own PoVs. Thank god Egwene kept her thumb on her. That whole section was surely Nynaeve's lowest point. That said, she has come around greatly since then.

 

Oh and it was lame too.

 

Seriously? Your killing me here. I found many scenes while travelling with the circus funny. Oh there were serious elements too. I agree that was Nynaeve's low point, but her character could not improve if there were not flaws to improve upon. At that point of the story she was the least likable of the main cast. Btw it was not Egeanin that Nyn fought. It was Cerandin.

[Vardar]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

[shortkut]

The over the top planning right before he meets up with verin made almost everyone involved seen out of character

[XoMeltdownoX]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

Thanks. I try to make everyone's day:)

 

I am not sure if I can articulate the differences about Mat. The main difference for me was in the humour. The RJ Mat was comical. I am not saying he went around telling jokes. It was easy to laugh at the things Mat did while character himself was being totally serious. BS knew that and tried to write Mat as being funny, but it felt like forced humour. The closest thing I can think of is seeing a stand up comedian who is not very good, who is following a hilarious comic. I am not doing a very good at explaining. Umm...maybe somebody else can answer this.

 

Having said all that, I did like what BS did with some of the other characters. Particularly Rand and Perrin. The RJ Perrin got on my nerves.

[Maleshub]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

Thanks. Also the inability to write a coherent thought in his letter to Elayne, even though his letter to Nyn and Elayne in Ebou Dar was grand whilst being written under duress.

[Maleshub]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

Thanks. Also the inability to write a coherent thought in his letter to Elayne, even though his letter to Nyn and Elayne in Ebou Dar was grand whilst being written under duress.

 

True! One of the best examples of how articulate Mat is his introduction of Talmanes to Tuon in KoD.

 

"Tuon," Mat said, "allow me to present Lord Talmanes Delovinde of Cairhien. His family is distinguished and ancient, and he has added honors to its name." The little woman inclined her head. Perhaps all of an inch. "Talmanes, this is Tuon." So long as she called him Toy. she would get no titles from him. Selucia glared, eyes hotter than ever, impossible as that seemed.

 

Mat in CoT and KoD was top-notch. My favorite readings!

[XoMeltdownoX]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

Thanks. Also the inability to write a coherent thought in his letter to Elayne, even though his letter to Nyn and Elayne in Ebou Dar was grand whilst being written under duress.

 

True! One of the best examples of how articulate Mat is his introduction of Talmanes to Tuon in KoD.

 

"Tuon," Mat said, "allow me to present Lord Talmanes Delovinde of Cairhien. His family is distinguished and ancient, and he has added honors to its name." The little woman inclined her head. Perhaps all of an inch. "Talmanes, this is Tuon." So long as she called him Toy. she would get no titles from him. Selucia glared, eyes hotter than ever, impossible as that seemed.

 

Mat in CoT and KoD was top-notch. My favorite readings!

Mine too!

[SuperFade]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

Thanks. Also the inability to write a coherent thought in his letter to Elayne, even though his letter to Nyn and Elayne in Ebou Dar was grand whilst being written under duress.

 

I always assumed the difference was intentional on Mat's part in order to catch Elayne's attention. If the letter was written formally like all the other hundreds she must recieve then she might only give it a single glance and decide to deal with whatever it contained later.

[Maleshub]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

Thanks. Also the inability to write a coherent thought in his letter to Elayne, even though his letter to Nyn and Elayne in Ebou Dar was grand whilst being written under duress.

 

I always assumed the difference was intentional on Mat's part in order to catch Elayne's attention. If the letter was written formally like all the other hundreds she must recieve then she might only give it a single glance and decide to deal with whatever it contained later.

 

Elayne never read any of his previous letters. Norry was a filter who didn't let any through to her.

 

Still, that's besides the point. He could have written a letter with every second word being "flaming" or "bloody" and still sound intelligent, clever, and funny.

[jwood01]

The over the top planning right before he meets up with verin made almost everyone involved seen out of character

 

This scene reminded me way too much of Mistborn, when Kiesler (?) et al are planning their heist. It did not remind me of Mat Cauthon. In a different series I may have found it quite funny.

[Treebeard]

while i see and understand your arguments ( witch contains many good points) i disagree on the most. I think it is not Mat that has change but rather the book. In TGS the book turns ( if not completely black, instantly ) towards a more serious tone, we have the situation in the WT , Rands black sides becomes fully exposed and we see a general secession of bad tidings poring in. Now mat has always been kind of ruff but he becomes smoother when meets Tuon , well in TGS and onwards she is in Ebo Dar and he is in a sphere dominated by men ( mostly millinery) so he feels a need to convince himself ( and the others) that he is still the old Mat. So Mat makes an journey backwards but not completely because he still got a more mature sense than he had before. But yes this kind of backward journey was maybe a tot ruff and bad executed on behalf of BS.

 

p.s i find the letter that Mat sends Elayne is very funny ( mainly because my own spelling is quit bad)

[Ashaman Kovan]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

[Vardar]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

 

Hmm. I'll pay more attention this read thru. Perhaps in my head I attributed it to his situation and him trying to replace a lost part of his childhood. I.E. I have all this responsibility now, it's ok fo rme to let loose a little.

 

I don't recall the rudness to Joline however, I recall him being pretty damn nice for what she put him thru in fact. Horses and fodder? Can you be a little more specific please.

[Vardar]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

Thanks. Also the inability to write a coherent thought in his letter to Elayne, even though his letter to Nyn and Elayne in Ebou Dar was grand whilst being written under duress.

 

I always assumed the difference was intentional on Mat's part in order to catch Elayne's attention. If the letter was written formally like all the other hundreds she must recieve then she might only give it a single glance and decide to deal with whatever it contained later.

 

Elayne never read any of his previous letters. Norry was a filter who didn't let any through to her.

 

Still, that's besides the point. He could have written a letter with every second word being "flaming" or "bloody" and still sound intelligent, clever, and funny.

 

But that's how Mat was! Recall the taking of the stone, right after when Mat went out of his was to bow and attempt to speak to Berlien. Recall what happened after she ignored him. Mat has always had a foul mouth, although generally speaking he's a gentleman. His mouth only comes out when he feels someone did him wrong.

 

As to the letter, Mat admits in that same book that he doesn't do much reading, and thus I would assume writing. Yes Mat is quite clever and articulate, but writing was never his strongest point.

 

Love the Tuon example above though. I loved that scene, in fact I love all his banter with Tuon.

[Treebeard]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

 

i wish that this forum had a Like buttom :)

[XoMeltdownoX]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

[Terez]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

+1

[avernite]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

 

Well, the same works the other way. IF we were all sure Robert Jordan wrote these books we'd 'know' any flaws were all flaws of his writing, and filter accordingly. Had we been lead to believe the books were written by multiple authors from day one people would find a way to filter it all to fit that knowledge, independent of the text.

 

Which is not to say I think BS writes all that different, and mostly not inferior, but then I AM a sucker for a good plot (and the author of the plot hardly changed anyhow). And, well, TGS had a character-driven plot so I can't complain on that point either(even though the non-Rand/Egwene threads are hanging a bit). So while I agree with your conclusion, I don't think that says much, since people have an amazing ability to make data fit their preconceptions anyway.

[Ashaman Kovan]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

 

You must have very limited and sheltered reference for material then.

 

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

+1

 

- 100

 

Edit:

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

So while I agree with your conclusion, I don't think that says much, since people have an amazing ability to make data fit their preconceptions anyway.

 

It says that all the people petulantly whining about how different and badly written Mat was are doing just that. Petulantly whining.

[Maleshub]

Cirque du S'elayne made my day.

 

That being said, I'm still not seeing the Mat difference. I suppose I never shall either. So sad, I'd really like to know what about Mat pissed people off so much.

 

BS's Mat seemed "dumber" than RJ's. There is his rudeness to Joline about horses and fodder. His sudden loss of refined speech. His childish behavior with pranks.

Thanks. Also the inability to write a coherent thought in his letter to Elayne, even though his letter to Nyn and Elayne in Ebou Dar was grand whilst being written under duress.

 

I always assumed the difference was intentional on Mat's part in order to catch Elayne's attention. If the letter was written formally like all the other hundreds she must recieve then she might only give it a single glance and decide to deal with whatever it contained later.

 

Elayne never read any of his previous letters. Norry was a filter who didn't let any through to her.

 

Still, that's besides the point. He could have written a letter with every second word being "flaming" or "bloody" and still sound intelligent, clever, and funny.

 

But that's how Mat was! Recall the taking of the stone, right after when Mat went out of his was to bow and attempt to speak to Berlien. Recall what happened after she ignored him. Mat has always had a foul mouth, although generally speaking he's a gentleman. His mouth only comes out when he feels someone did him wrong.

 

As to the letter, Mat admits in that same book that he doesn't do much reading, and thus I would assume writing. Yes Mat is quite clever and articulate, but writing was never his strongest point.

 

Love the Tuon example above though. I loved that scene, in fact I love all his banter with Tuon.

 

Yeah, the Mat - Tuon courtship is my favorite rereading material. One of my favorite scenes in right in my sig!

 

As to Mat's foul mouth and the letter to Elayne, we need to go back to his meeting with Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve in Salidar. That was hilarious. He was very funny, very rude, and very much in shock; but he wasn't dumb or at a loss for words. What I am trying to convey is that Mat could have written a very funny and very rude letter without looking very dumb, which how he came across in the letter.

 

The rudeness to Joline episode occurs early on in TGS before Hinderstap (sp.) where she asks him for horses for herself, Edesina, Teslyn, and the former sul'dam to continue their journey alone. Talmanes comments on it and says that Mat is on edge and worried about Tuon's safety.

 

But this is just a personal thing. First time I read the letter, I was laughing as hard as I've laughed at any Mat humor. But when I went back and read it again, especially in my rereads of Mat-only chapters, the letter felt like a road bump in the reading.

 

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

 

You must have very limited and sheltered reference for material then.

 

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

+1

 

- 100

 

Edit:

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

So while I agree with your conclusion, I don't think that says much, since people have an amazing ability to make data fit their preconceptions anyway.

 

It says that all the people petulantly whining about how different and badly written Mat was are doing just that. Petulantly whining.

 

I don't feel like I am whining. I am just expressing my personal feelings on how I read Mat. I don't hold it against people who say that Mat never changed for them. It is how they read him. In the same vein, I guess it is within my right to try and discuss why I think he seems "off" to me.

[ShenAnCalhar]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

 

....

 

It says that all the people petulantly whining about how different and badly written Mat was are doing just that. Petulantly whining.

 

People's perceptions are certainly colored, but if you truly believe that no one can tell the difference between two authors' writing styles, you are sadly mistaken. You're implying that any author (perhaps published author) can mimic the works of any other author without readers noticing. Any jackass can write like Shakespeare, right? I mean if he wasn't dead, we'd be convinced that he wrote that new tragedy instead of R.L. Stine.

[baalsmistress]

Yes, Elayne never read any of the previous letters, and had Mat written a well presented, standard formal letter, Norry would have filtered his letter the same as he did all the others. It's precisely because it's so irreverent and carefree in execution that it gets through to Elayne at all.

 

That letter *HAD* to be like that, else there's no way that Elayne would ever have read it.

[Ashaman Kovan]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

 

....

 

It says that all the people petulantly whining about how different and badly written Mat was are doing just that. Petulantly whining.

 

People's perceptions are certainly colored, but if you truly believe that no one can tell the difference between two authors' writing styles, you are sadly mistaken. You're implying that any author (perhaps published author) can mimic the works of any other author without readers noticing. Any jackass can write like Shakespeare, right? I mean if he wasn't dead, we'd be convinced that he wrote that new tragedy instead of R.L. Stine.

 

 

Shakespeare is a bad example in my opinion.

But no, that's not what I'm implying. Am I implying that someone who is a fantasy author, a very longtime fan of a series, hand picked by the person closest to the original author given extensive notes and possessing a fundamental understanding of how a character works, can almost mimic the work of an author? Yes.

Certainly to the point where the reader has no call to moan and whine over some tiny perceived flaw they think only they're privy to.

[XoMeltdownoX]

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

 

You must have very limited and sheltered reference for material then.

 

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

That is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read.

+1

 

- 100

 

Edit:

If no one knew BS was writing it now no one would ever see a difference. People's perceptions of characters are going to be colored purely by the fact that they know it's a different author.

So while I agree with your conclusion, I don't think that says much, since people have an amazing ability to make data fit their preconceptions anyway.

 

It says that all the people petulantly whining about how different and badly written Mat was are doing just that. Petulantly whining.

No. Your statement stands for itself. It is truly worthy of ridicule.