The Heroes of the Horn

[FarShainMael]

As for whether the Dragon is one of the Heroes of the Horn, as Demon_AS put it, it's up for debate simply because of the point I raised: that when the Horn is used, the Dragon is already spun out, and therefore won't be summoned.

 

Yes he's a Hero, and bound to the Wheel; but his association with the Horn seems to be different from the other Heroes.

 

And I note that RJ said "This soul is one of the Heroes". He didn't specify the Horn.

[Suttree]

And I note that RJ said "This soul is one of the Heroes". He didn't specify the Horn.

 

Which of course is a pretty ridiculous distinction. Splitting hairs on the highest level.

 

I highly doubt the Horn will call any of the living Heroes. Rand can be called in an age when he is in a "non dragon" incarnation as I said above. Seems pretty straight forward.

[Maleshub]

Another point to consider is that the Horn was hidden with the Banner in the Eye of the World. It would never have been able to summon Rand/LTT/Dragon to serve the Hornsounder.

 

I cannot argue against an RJ statement. But the above quote doesn't link Rand/Dragon to the horn. It just establishes that he is a hero reborn to do his work in the age he's reborn. I am definitely not trying to split hairs; but I am trying to see and understand this issue more clearly.

[FarShainMael]

And I note that RJ said "This soul is one of the Heroes". He didn't specify the Horn.

 

Which of course is a pretty ridiculous distinction. Splitting hairs on the highest level.

 

I highly doubt the Horn will call any of the living Heroes. Rand can be called in an age when he is in a "non dragon" incarnation as I said above. Seems pretty straight forward.

 

I have to disagree. Recall that I said above:

 

"The Horn of Valere, made to call dead heroes back from the grave. And prophecy said it would only be found just in time for the Last Battle."

 

And the Dragon would also appear in time for the LB.

 

The Horn is only found in time for the Last Battle.

The Dragonsoul is incarnated as the Dragon in time for the Last Battle.

 

Therefore, the Horn will not be found in a non-Dragon / non-Last Battle age.

[TristanWebb]

All of the prophecies we have seen relate to the third age though. Thre is really nothing to say that in the sixth age the horn isn't blown continuously. Also, in regard to the age lace, everyone besides from RJ (and The rest of Team Jordan) is an unreliable narrator. It isn't really pertinent, because the wheel of time book series will end at the dawning of the fourth age, but to assume that the horn is no part of any other age is demonstrably wrong.

 

Remember that it had to be found in the Age of Legends because we know it was the Aes Sedai who created the Eye of the World and put it there. Perhaps then it was a staple in every large scale assault, which led to the prominence of legends that lasted through the breaking and three thousand years beyond that. Granted the dragon was alive then, but if it was found 500 years before the bore was drilled? You know if a horn was found, some archaeologist or their digger would get drunk and blow it eventually. Human nature is similar enough in the Wheel of Time that that is true.

[FarShainMael]

This from Tor Website Q&A:

 

The Horn of Valere was known during the Age of Legends. It was an artifact from an earlier Age. It was never used, partly because the Third Age was mostly peaceful and partly because its power was considered a myth. It was lost and thought destroyed during the violence that preceded the War of Power. After its recovery, it was included with the Dragon Banner and the Eye of the World because the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon said it must be so.

 

I'm assuming that when it says 'it was never used' this applies to the Third Age (called so by some! ) only. We have no info on whether it was used in that earlier Age.. or indeed at all. Before Mat had a blow, that is

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/guide/index.html

 

Also, bear in mind what Hawkwing himself said (TGH47): 'We come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

[TristanWebb]

I'll give you the AoL stuff, but the whole something holds me before your quote shows that Hawkwing isn't bound to the banner each time. Maybe he is only the leader when the dragon is alive, maybe he was required to wait for the banner because the dragon was reluctant to proclaim himself this turning, I don't now, but I can't see it as proof that they can only act when the banner is there, or when the dragon is.

[Suttree]

And I note that RJ said "This soul is one of the Heroes". He didn't specify the Horn.

 

Which of course is a pretty ridiculous distinction. Splitting hairs on the highest level.

 

I highly doubt the Horn will call any of the living Heroes. Rand can be called in an age when he is in a "non dragon" incarnation as I said above. Seems pretty straight forward.

 

I have to disagree. Recall that I said above:

 

"The Horn of Valere, made to call dead heroes back from the grave. And prophecy said it would only be found just in time for the Last Battle."

 

And the Dragon would also appear in time for the LB.

 

The Horn is only found in time for the Last Battle.

The Dragonsoul is incarnated as the Dragon in time for the Last Battle.

 

Therefore, the Horn will not be found in a non-Dragon / non-Last Battle age.

 

Why would you think Siuan would be one hundred percent correct when RJ already has said Moiraine is not on the topic?

 

Furthermore why would you think prophecies specific to this turning would apply across the board to all ages?

[FarShainMael]

See my post #31 above.

[Suttree]

See my post #31 above.

 

None of which addresses either of my questions.

 

You are making extremely literal assumptions and going off the premise that all character info from the text is correct which per RJ we already know is false.

[WhiskyJack]

Prophecy, as Siaun states it, merely applies to this age.

 

"Therefore, the Horn will not be found in a non-Dragon / non-Last Battle age."

 

This is true only for this particular age (and this turning of wheel).

[Lisa Campbell]

You're ignoring the fact that in the AOL they had the horn and knew what it was and the "myth" of how it works. They also knew that whoever sounds the horn is linked to it 'til death, so there was obviously lost history/knowledge of where it came from during the breaking for the current Aes Sedai to know the scraps they do about the prophecy.

 

They had the horn for 500 years before the breaking, which was about 200 years before Lews Therin's time. It's not 100% proof but it is a lot more logical and closely follows the theme of hhistory becoming legend, then fading again to myth before the age that gave it birth comes again etc.. Also, when the bore was drilled and the War of Power and the breaking ensued, Lews Therin was not associated with the horn. It was hidden from him by Latra and Co. remember? None of those chickens were going to Shayol Ghul to retreive it if he took it there and there was no mention of Heroes with the Hundred Companions when the seal on the Bore was placed and they were driven mad instantly in the backlash. They started smashing up the world, not playing sweetly sad music.

[FarShainMael]

See my post #31 above.

 

None of which addresses either of my questions.

 

You are making extremely literal assumptions and going off the premise that all character info from the text is correct which per RJ we already know is false.

 

Then did Thom get it wrong as well? Thom, whose knowledge of lore and legends is unparallelled?

 

The gleeman pushed back his chair and went to stare out of the window. "The Horn of Valere. That means the Last Battle is coming.."

 

(Thanks to Terez for reminding me of the above.)

[TristanWebb]

So, the horn isn't mentioned in the prophecies of the Dragon, as per Andelas or Vandene talking to Moiraine in tGH, but there is a prophecy about it. Then we can fairly safely assume that the ties to Illian are in that prophecy, right? I foresee a battle in Illian in the future with Mat defending the place with the horn. Possibly a Seanchan invasion with Hawkwing at the head of the armies stopping it? Sounds good to me.

[FarShainMael]

And Mat plans to head for Ebou Dar at some stage - which could well take him through Illian. The region, if not the city. Nice one!

[Guest .....]

About the Heroes, what if some (or many) of the main characters in the series are in fact Heroes reborn but not knowing? The Last Battle is coming, so the timing would be appropriate. That would bring some problems with Birgitte not recognizing the others, but she can hardly know everyone. Many of the people would seem suitable for the role of a Hero.

Mat (if the memories are not just collected by the Finn) and Rand would be at least, but also the others. Moiraine for example fought Be'lal and killed him and caused Lanfear's death and survived the tower. Not many would be able to do that.

And then there's Egwene. It may be just me, but her actions, in the last few books and especially in the last, remind me quite much of Latra Posae Decume. Opposing the dragon and all that. It could still be just a coincidence. Shouldn't "the slicer of shadow" be among the heroes?

 

I'm new, so not sure if someone else has said about this. This might sound crazy, but this is a fantasy book. Almost anything can happen.

 

Also, it is possible that they're just reincarnations, not bound to the horn.

[FarShainMael]

I have wondered two things about Moiraine: is she a Hero? Is she Ilyena? Both?

 

Recall that Ilyena was not among the Heroes when Mat sounded the Horn.. and Moiraine wasn't present either for Hawkwing to notice and recognise her. So the possibilities are not excluded.

[Suttree]

It was hidden from him by Latra and Co. remember? None of those chickens were going to Shayol Ghul to retreive it if he took it there and there was no mention of Heroes with the Hundred Companions when the seal on the Bore was placed and they were driven mad instantly in the backlash.

 

Errrmm that is not what happened at all. It was thought a myth so it was never used in the AoL and then was lost in the early parts of the war.

 

In addition not sure why you would call the woman who played a major role in defeating the shadow, gaining the nickname Shadar Nor for her actions post sealing a "chicken".

 

Then did Thom get it wrong as well? Thom, whose knowledge of lore and legends is unparallelled?

 

The gleeman pushed back his chair and went to stare out of the window. "The Horn of Valere. That means the Last Battle is coming.."

 

Unparalleled compared to whom? Regardless that is entirely beside the point. A major them of the books is characters not knowing all they think they do and we have an RJ quote proving someone who likely has studied the same legends(Moiraine) has got it wrong. That is enough to call question into whether what the characters in this age think about the Horn is correct.

 

In regards to the prophecy as others pointed out that only relates to this age.

[Durinax]

I have wondered two things about Moiraine: is she a Hero? Is she Ilyena? Both?

 

Recall that Ilyena was not among the Heroes when Mat sounded the Horn.. and Moiraine wasn't present either for Hawkwing to notice and recognise her. So the possibilities are not excluded.

there is nothing to say Ilyena is a hero that I am aware of

[NetSlider]

Interesting question but what got me thinking, if Rand's twins are the heroes as well and they are already in the womb, where does that leave them? Are their souls leave TAR at conception or at birth?

[OptimusPrime]

another way to think of the horn is a anti dark dragon weapon, if the dragon goes evil then there will be mass chaos and slaughter, in which any heroes which would have been reborn will likely be killed, returned to TAR where they can be called by the horn to save the day. So it is a method of checks and balances based on what the dragon does

 

This is precisely what I think. I think the Horn is the Wheels failsafe against a Dark Dragon. RJ said if the Heroes were summoned against the Dragon it would create a rift in the Pattern; I think that rift would sever the Dragons connection to everything, de-Ta'veren him, make him a normal man again.

[Durinax]

Interesting question but what got me thinking, if Rand's twins are the heroes as well and they are already in the womb, where does that leave them? Are their souls leave TAR at conception or at birth?

I would almost say since their conceived that their souls are bound within elaynes womb. They can't be called, but anything about this topic is purely speculation, unless we know for certain whether RJ was pro life or pro choice (most relevant thing I could think of to settle this)

[Le Québecois]

I think that Mat has to be one of the heroes of the horn for he is the hornsounder. Birgitte feels right with him and won't tell his secret. What if the secret she won't tell is that he is the hornsounder. A man that the pattern itself needs to keep it's shape. Not only that but Mat's memorys began when he sounded the horn or even in TEOTW when he strarts to speak the old thonge. The old blood might be strong in the TR but nowhere as strong as in Mattrim Cautton Prince of the Ravens, friend to the dragon, general of the band of the red hand and to top it off hornsounder to the HOV. I am pretty sure he is a hero. it might be that all ta'veren are heroes needed by the pattern. Give me your toughts.

[TristanWebb]

My first reads I was under the impression that ta'veren and Heroes where one in the same, but at some point I decided that isn't the case. Not sure what made me change my mind though.

[Lisa Campbell]

We don't know about any Heroes bound to the horn other than Hawkwing being a Ta'veren. Is there a list of past Ta'veren somewhere? That would shed some light Cow. What if all Heroes are Ta'veren?