Ben explains everthing.... ish

[Terez]

LTT wasn't the construct, but the voice in Rand's head was. LTT and Rand are the same soul, the same person (though they probably have their differences). Now, Rand was faced with all those memories and with growing insanity. His mind constructed a LTT voice in his head, where he put all the memories and all the insanity. That was the construct.

 

He didn't exactly put all the memories there. The memories were just mixed in with his own, bubbling up despite his efforts to suppress them. Rand himself said in KOD that the voice rarely shared any useful information with him; everything useful comes to him directly. Now, he definitely associated the memories with Lews Therin, considered them to belong to the imaginary man in his head, but he was seldom able to make the voice reveal any of those memories. One exception was inside the box. A similar conversation happened in KOD 18, but Rand was the one remembering the important stuff, figuring out what had happened, that Moridin had been using the True Power in Shadar Logoth; Lews Therin was mainly whining about Ilyena and not helping very much. A part of Rand recognized Moridin in his head subconsciously way back in TPOD, but that subconscious recognition was voiced through Lews Therin, not because the knowledge came from Lews Therin's memories (only a part of it did), but because Lews Therin voiced nearly all of Rand's subconscious thoughts. And just as Rand associated the memories with the voice, he also associated the madness with the voice, no matter how much madness he displayed all on his own.

 

By the way, just passed this in my reread:

 

Rand channeled, and a heavy, leopard-carved chair floated into the air from its place by the wall, spinning end over end in somersaults before settling like a feather in front of Cadsuane. At the same time, a heavy silver pitcher drifted up from a long, draped table across the room, making a loud ping as it was suddenly heated; steam gushed from the top, and it tipped over, whirling round and round like a slow top, as a silver cup darted up to neatly catch the dark pouring.

 

"Too hot, I think," Rand said, and the glassed casements leaped from the tall, narrow windows. Snowflakes billowed in on an icy blast, and the cup soared out through one of the windows, soared back again, straight to his hand as he sat himself. Let her see how calm she could stay with a madman staring at her.

 

Made me laugh.

[Benjamin Lockett]

Rand and LTT have the same soul and i take this as meaning the same base personality ect. Rand draws attention to this when he says the difference is he was raised better. So in my opinion it is the experiences that define a person.

LTT was healed with the true power but he was still insane since Mordin himself had no idea how long the healing would last and he was hearing thru the taint making him mad that's how I see it.

What makes me believe in my theory is how talents were taken over such as the ability to paint as if he had spent years doing it not just a memory and the fact this part of him that was LTT was able to grasp the power.

With Birgitte I belive she is loosing her memories because the wheel has found a place for her back in the pattern with Elayne and she is being slowly spun into it perminatly similarly to as she would normally in loosing her memories of past lives and hopefully being connected to Gaidal.

O and just for the sake of my curiousty who else thinks Mordin is Taim.

[Finnssss22]

 

O and just for the sake of my curiousty who else thinks Mordin is Taim.

 

WH 22, Kisman's PoV, seems to make it clear that Moridin, Demandred and Taim are 3 separate people.

[Naggash]

the fact this part of him that was LTT was able to grasp the power.

As we said the Vice isn't real, LTT was the 'mad' part of Rand. I'm not explaining it all over again, read previous messages.

[Suttree]

Rand and LTT have the same soul and i take this as meaning the same base personality ect.

 

You would be wrong.

 

 

Interview: Jan 7th, 2003

 

COT Signing Report - David Funke (Verbatim)

Question

 

The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

Robert Jordan

 

They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I have cobbled together.

[yoniy0]

You would be wrong.

But then there is this:

"I suppose I am him. But Min, what you're missing is this: I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him. I'm not going to change just because I remember--I was the same. I'm me. And I always have been me."

[Suttree]

You would be wrong.

But then there is this:

"I suppose I am him. But Min, what you're missing is this: I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him. I'm not going to change just because I remember--I was the same. I'm me. And I always have been me."

 

Which doesn't change my point in the slightest.

[Randommer]

When Rand first starts getting Lews Therin memories, they come naturally like his own thoughts. Or, it's words coming out of his mouth. Rand had to go to a great deal of effort to separate Lews Therin from himself pyschologically, and it's very much a chicken-egg scenario with the madness that follows. Did his separation efforts cause the madness, or did the madness faciliate the separation? Either way, Dumai's Wells kicked the anthill, so by the time ACOS rolls around he's pretty much crazy.

Yup. I think he was afraid of brcoming LTT or just don't being himself anymore + supreme stress + bit of madness = Voice. That's my opinion.

 

The biggest part of it, I think, was the guilt over Ilyena. I mean, Rand grew up believing that the Kinslayer was only a short step below the Dark One in evil, but aside from that, when he actually began to remember being Lews Therin, that emotion over having killed his wife was at the forefront. RJ draws the contrast in TFOH during the Battle of Cairhien, when Rand remembers a weave that allows him to blow up hills, and he thinks that he doesn't care where the memory came from, he's happy to have it. And then he has an Ilyena moment, and he actually feels the emotional pain associated with it, so he makes a conscious effort to not think about anything at all in order to avoid those memories. And so he only gets the memories in little snatches because he suppresses them most of the time; he doesn't want to remember that. Only after he almost killed Tam did he realize that he couldn't pretend any more that Lews Therin was the murdering madman while Rand al'Thor was alright.

 

I just passed this one in my reread, but I've quoted it many times over the years:

 

No plan of battle survives first contact, Lews Therin said in Rand’s head. For a moment, he still seemed lucid. For a moment. Something is wrong, he growled suddenly. His voice began to gain intensity, and drift into wild disbelieving laughter. It can’t be wrong, but it is. Something strange, something wrong, skittering, jumping, twitching. His cackles turned to weeping. It can’t be! I must be mad! And he vanished before Rand could mute him. Burn him, there was nothing wrong with the plan, or Bashere would have been on it like a duck on a beetle.

 

Lews Therin was mad, no doubt of it. But so long as Rand al’Thor remained sane... A bitter joke on the world, if the Dragon Reborn went mad before the Last Battle even began. "Take your places," he commanded with a wave of the Dragon Scepter. He had to fight down the urge to laugh at that joke.

 

In this way, the Voice was what allowed Rand to pretend that he wasn't going insane. All his insane thoughts were automatically labeled 'Lews Therin'; there's no difference in timbre or anything because sometimes Rand isn't sure whether a thought is his own or Lews Therin's. That's why Lews Therin came back from his vacation in TPOD; Rand was about to kill Torval. Rand isn't paranoid around Asha'man; oh no, that's Lews Therin, the murdering madman. But he denied Lews Therin three times in that chapter, denied needing his voice to tell him not to trust Torval, and by the end of the chapter, surprise surprise, Lews Therin was back.

Just had to +1 all this.

 

But I think LTT also served another 'function' apart from letting Rand pretend he wasn't crazy. He aslo served to heap the criticism and hopelessness on Rand that Rand believed he deserved. It's like he created his own imaginary frenemy. This is a real phenomenon in some severe cases of depression, along with some of the other odder things Rand thought, and it always seems to me that RJ read up on it pretty well before writing LTT's voice. And when Rand gets over thinking that everything is hopeless and he needs to be punished, the voice disappears; though obviously there were other factors there too.

[DaoineSidhe]

Wow... A construct vs. real LTT debate... kinda... Granted I don't keep that up to date with all the theories running around WoT, but it's been awhile for me to see one lol.

 

Seven or eight years ago I was firmly in the camp of LTT is real, but I can gladly say that I switched to the LTT is a contruct camp about four years ago. Or is that "camp Jacob" vs. "camp Edward"? I get confused sometimes...

 

Back to reality, the only somewhat problem that I still have about the construct idea is where the memories of LTT come from if the voice isn't real? Given events of the story, I think the voice is a construct from Rand, I just don't get how he has access to the memories... Is it as simple as ta'veren pattern weirdness for the Dragon soul, or is there a better explanation?

[FarShainMael]

The memories are real, but the voice doesn't have to be. I'm in the construct camp as well.

[yoniy0]

Which doesn't change my point in the slightest.

Of course it does. You were arguing that the personality of each incarnation of the soul differs. Well, Rand says in no uncertain terms that his hasn't. You could say, "that's just one case". I don't believe that's true, but just so I know if this merits arguing , is that what you're saying?

[Terez]

I think LTT also served another 'function' apart from letting Rand pretend he wasn't crazy.

 

He served many functions, which is why I said earlier that I could go on and on about it. I just think Ilyena is probably the most important motivation behind the construction of the Voice. There are so many secondary functions—all of which are spelled out clearly in the text—that it gets hard to keep up with sometimes, and Moridin just confuses the whole thing.

 

He aslo served to heap the criticism and hopelessness on Rand that Rand believed he deserved. It's like he created his own imaginary frenemy. This is a real phenomenon in some severe cases of depression, along with some of the other odder things Rand thought, and it always seems to me that RJ read up on it pretty well before writing LTT's voice. And when Rand gets over thinking that everything is hopeless and he needs to be punished, the voice disappears; though obviously there were other factors there too.

 

If you're talking about the major disappearance, then it seems that the main reason why the voice went away was that Cadsuane asked Rand if he was hearing voices yet. She said it was a symptom of the madness, and while he knew that the memories were real (and therefore thought the 'voice' was 'real'), she really scared him with that comment. At first, the voice was simply a way of pretending that he was not Lews Therin. By the time Cadsuane showed up, it was a way of pretending that he was not going insane, and since she made him worry that it really was a sign he was going insane, the voice went away. And as soon as she went away, he learned that Herid Fel had been killed, and Min told him about Colavaere, and then they comforted each other, though Rand somehow convinced himself that he had raped Min, so he locked himself up in a room and raged at the walls, refusing to eat or bathe or see anyone, especially Min. He thinks about how alone he is, and this is after Perrin's beautiful chapter "To Be Alone" where Loial talks about how Rand is sending everyone away, everyone he cares about. You might say he did the same to Lews Therin, if for different reasons. When Min finally dragged him out and told him he was being a stupid loobie and made him take a bath, he seemed better, but he wasn't really. He might have been more insane during those next few chapters than he had ever been up to that point, with the exception of the scene where Taim gives him the seal.

 

As for the criticism and hopelessness...I see it as Lews Therin expressing Rand's very real emotions about Ilyena (among other things), and Rand punishing himself for his crimes against women not only as a way of doing penance for Ilyena, but as a way of trying to keep himself from repeating Lews Therin's crimes. He doesn't see it that way, of course, but that's what it is, and that is why he feels Ilyena deserves a place on the list for all he insists that Lews Therin put her there. (I suppose he did, heh.) For the most part I really love the way Brandon handled that in TGS. I'd nitpick a couple of things, but after years of trying to convince people and failing, it was really nice to read, for example, chapter 15, which I got to read a few days before the book came out thanks to an employee who was probably hoping for a bribe. Even reading that, I knew that Brandon got it. And then Isabel posted on Dragonmount that the end of TGS confirmed that Lews Therin was 'real' after all. And so I asked Deadsy about it because she had gotten the whole book early, and she quoted the 'not two men and never had been' line, and so I argued with Isa about it until the book came out and she tried to pretend that I had to read it in context to understand it (despite the fact that that's exactly what I'd been trying to tell her for years). Needless to say, the context only further emphasized the fact that Brandon got it. As did this interview.

 

Which doesn't change my point in the slightest.

Of course it does. You were arguing that the personality of each incarnation of the soul differs. Well, Rand says in no uncertain terms that his hasn't. You could say, "that's just one case". I don't believe that's true, but just so I know if this merits arguing , is that what you're saying?

 

Nature vs Nurture again? It's both, mates. Everyone knows that.

[TristanWebb]

Well, Rand does say he was raised better this time.

[Terez]

Or Brandon does, anyway.

 

PS—That one is definitely one of the details I would have nitpicked.

[Randommer]

I think LTT also served another 'function' apart from letting Rand pretend he wasn't crazy.

 

He served many functions, which is why I said earlier that I could go on and on about it. I just think Ilyena is probably the most important motivation behind the construction of the Voice. There are so many secondary functions—all of which are spelled out clearly in the text—that it gets hard to keep up with sometimes, and Moridin just confuses the whole thing.

 

He aslo served to heap the criticism and hopelessness on Rand that Rand believed he deserved. It's like he created his own imaginary frenemy. This is a real phenomenon in some severe cases of depression, along with some of the other odder things Rand thought, and it always seems to me that RJ read up on it pretty well before writing LTT's voice. And when Rand gets over thinking that everything is hopeless and he needs to be punished, the voice disappears; though obviously there were other factors there too.

 

If you're talking about the major disappearance, then it seems that the main reason why the voice went away was that Cadsuane asked Rand if he was hearing voices yet...

...

 

As for the criticism and hopelessness...I see it as Lews Therin expressing Rand's very real emotions about Ilyena (among other things), and Rand punishing himself for his crimes against women not only as a way of doing penance for Ilyena, but as a way of trying to keep himself from repeating Lews Therin's crimes. He doesn't see it that way, of course, but that's what it is, and that is why he feels Ilyena deserves a place on the list for all he insists that Lews Therin put her there. (I suppose he did, heh.) For the most part I really love the way Brandon handled that in TGS. I'd nitpick a couple of things, but after years of trying to convince people and failing, it was really nice to read, for example, chapter 15, which I got to read a few days before the book came out thanks to an employee who was probably hoping for a bribe. Even reading that, I knew that Brandon got it. And then Isabel posted on Dragonmount that the end of TGS confirmed that Lews Therin was 'real' after all. And so I asked Deadsy about it because she had gotten the whole book early, and she quoted the 'not two men and never had been' line, and so I argued with Isa about it until the book came out and she tried to pretend that I had to read it in context to understand it (despite the fact that that's exactly what I'd been trying to tell her for years). Needless to say, the context only further emphasized the fact that Brandon got it. As did this interview.

Actually I was talking about the VoG disappearance.

 

As for the rest of the post, I pretty much agree with all that. I just also think there was more of an...illness thing to it, in a self-destructive sort of way, as opposed to only being a very nutty coping mechanism. But like you said, there was so much taint-induced and psychological stuff going on there that it's very hard to know what exactly RJ intended the voice to be. Which, of course, is just how he wanted it.

[Deadsy]

Or Brandon does, anyway.

 

PS—That one is definitely one of the details I would have nitpicked.

 

It's funny, that line bothered me too but I also liked it because he mentioned Moiraine. I'm weak.

[Terez]

It stuck out as being Brandon-ish but that wasn't even the problem. From what we can tell, Lews Therin's mistakes had little to do with how he was raised, so it was a stupid thing to say.

[Terez]

Actually I was talking about the VoG disappearance.

 

In that case, I see it as Rand fighting his suicidal tendencies. He's always attributed those to Lews Therin because Lews Therin killed himself and the main reason Rand wants to do the same is because of Lews Therin's memories. Over time it became more difficult for Rand to deny that they were his memories. That doesn't change the fact that he went on pretending that they weren't, but it became more difficult, so we start to see extreme stuff that doesn't make any sense like KOD "Vows". Part of that is Moridin rubbing off on him, too, but Rand had to overcome his Lews Therin trauma and find a reason to live before he could truly accept those memories as his own (even though it had already gotten to the point where he only denied those memories mostly out of habit). Some would go further and say he didn't really accept his role as the Dragon until then, and that's at least partly true, too. And the best thing about it is that, even after all that, he still has Moridin to contend with, and appears to be as clueless about that as he ever was about Lews Therin.

[FarShainMael]

Well, Rand does say he was raised better this time.

 

That was a bit ambiguous of Rand, though, wasn't it! Rand talks about being 'raised' twice. First, to Cads:

 

"If you wish, you may call me Rand Sedai. I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow."

 

The expression 'properly raised' seems here to refer to the process of becoming AS, as it did in ACoS 11 for Egwene, and ACoS 30 for the Kin.

 

The second time being 'raised' was mentioned it was quite different. Later in the same chapter, we have

 

"Lews Therin was mad."

 

"At the end," Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one."

 

"What difference?"

 

He smiled. "This time, I was raised better...

 

...It's because of Tam,because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. He tried very hard to break me. I think if I'd been the same as I was so long ago, he would have succeeded."

 

This is pretty clearly referring to not just Rand's upbringing, but his social environment. LTT's own 'social enviroment' may well have been what made him so arrogant.

[Naggash]

Well, Rand does say he was raised better this time.

 

That was a bit ambiguous of Rand, though, wasn't it! Rand talks about being 'raised' twice. First, to Cads:

 

"If you wish, you may call me Rand Sedai. I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow."

 

The expression 'properly raised' seems here to refer to the process of becoming AS, as it did in ACoS 11 for Egwene, and ACoS 30 for the Kin.

 

The second time being 'raised' was mentioned it was quite different. Later in the same chapter, we have

 

"Lews Therin was mad."

 

"At the end," Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one."

 

"What difference?"

 

He smiled. "This time, I was raised better...

 

...It's because of Tam,because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. He tried very hard to break me. I think if I'd been the same as I was so long ago, he would have succeeded."

 

This is pretty clearly referring to not just Rand's upbringing, but his social environment. LTT's own 'social enviroment' may well have been what made him so arrogant.

I think in this case I must apply 'sometimes a cat is just a cat'. To me the 'this time i was raised better, if i had been the same as before he would probably have broken me' (paraphrasing) means plainly the obvious. Two River's lads are always awsome, as we've seen through the books. If LTT had come to the TR demanding obedience with the nose pointing high he would have first-hand witnessed in 0,2 a proper scowlding by Nynaeve and the Circle.

[yoniy0]

Yes, because arrogance is one challenge Rand truly never had to face.

Also, what's the deal with "still alive"? Didn't he mean "currently alive"?

[FarShainMael]

@Naggash: :laugh: I can see that now..

[Deadsy]

Well, Rand does say he was raised better this time.

 

That was a bit ambiguous of Rand, though, wasn't it! Rand talks about being 'raised' twice. First, to Cads:

 

"If you wish, you may call me Rand Sedai. I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow."

 

The expression 'properly raised' seems here to refer to the process of becoming AS, as it did in ACoS 11 for Egwene, and ACoS 30 for the Kin.

 

The second time being 'raised' was mentioned it was quite different. Later in the same chapter, we have

 

"Lews Therin was mad."

 

"At the end," Rand said. "And yes, he made mistakes. I made mistakes. I grew arrogant, desperate. But there's a difference this time. A great one."

 

"What difference?"

 

He smiled. "This time, I was raised better...

 

...It's because of Tam,because of the people around me. You, Perrin, Nynaeve, Mat, Aviendha, Elayne, Moiraine. He tried very hard to break me. I think if I'd been the same as I was so long ago, he would have succeeded."

 

This is pretty clearly referring to not just Rand's upbringing, but his social environment. LTT's own 'social enviroment' may well have been what made him so arrogant.

I think in this case I must apply 'sometimes a cat is just a cat'. To me the 'this time i was raised better, if i had been the same as before he would probably have broken me' (paraphrasing) means plainly the obvious. Two River's lads are always awsome, as we've seen through the books. If LTT had come to the TR demanding obedience with the nose pointing high he would have first-hand witnessed in 0,2 a proper scowlding by Nynaeve and the Circle.

 

It still doesn't make any sense. LTT successfully sealed the bore. His major mistake was that saidin was tainted because his plan wasn't flawless. As far as I know, we don't know of any other specific mistakes he made. Killing his family wasn't a mistake. It was an effect of the taint.

 

What does his failure to have a perfect plan have to do with how he was raised? Nothing. At least, nothing that we're privy to.

[Finnssss22]

It still doesn't make any sense. LTT successfully sealed the bore. His major mistake was that saidin was tainted because his plan wasn't flawless. As far as I know, we don't know of any other specific mistakes he made. Killing his family wasn't a mistake. It was an effect of the taint.

 

What does his failure to have a perfect plan have to do with how he was raised? Nothing. At least, nothing that we're privy to.

 

LTT's mistake was that he alienated the women and arrogantly thought he could succeed without them.

That was the mistake, the tainting of Saidin was a product of that mistake.

[yoniy0]

Or, that humans could mend what the Creator had made and they themselves had broken? Perhaps properly Sealing the Bore has more to do with allowing the Pattern to function as intended than it does active intervention.