Aging with the Power

[fionwe1987]

You also have to remember that it is channeling that prolongs life, not just being able to channel. The Wise Ones don't channel nearly as much as an AS would, so their lives aren't extended as much either.

That's plain untrue. Aes Sedai just think that wilders don't channel much. They just assume that those put out of the Tower simply stop channeling. Both are ludicrous assumptions. Saidar is plain addictive.

[David Selig]

Morgase barely ever channels yet has slowed significantly.

[Naggash]

Morgase barely ever channels yet has slowed significantly.

That's because imo the slow has a "minimum". As long as you have worked with the Power to some extent, you will retard. But if you barely touch it you will retard far less than someone who is drawing constantly. Look at Nynaeve. She retarded being Wisdom.

[yoniy0]

Morgase barely ever channels yet has slowed significantly.

Significantly? She's hardly into her forties. How much could she have slowed? Actually, I think she's mentioned more than once as a 'mature' version of her daughter, which too me suggests at the very least a 35 year old (and probably more), albeit one who aged gracefully. A touch of slowing would certainly help to explain it (though it's not even required), but there's no support for the quantifier you used that I can think of.

[Naggash]

Morgase barely ever channels yet has slowed significantly.

Significantly? She's hardly into her forties. How much could she have slowed? Actually, I think she's mentioned more than once as a 'mature' version of her daughter, which too me suggests at the very least a 35 year old (and probably more), albeit one who aged gracefully. A touch of slowing would certainly help to explain it (though it's not even required), but there's no support for the quantifier you used that I can think of.

Agreed of course. Nynaeve for instance retarded just 2 or 3 years.

[Knivy]

You also have to remember that it is channeling that prolongs life, not just being able to channel. The Wise Ones don't channel nearly as much as an AS would, so their lives aren't extended as much either.

That's plain untrue. Aes Sedai just think that wilders don't channel much. They just assume that those put out of the Tower simply stop channeling. Both are ludicrous assumptions. Saidar is plain addictive.

Wise ones dont channel nearly as much as an Aes Sedai. They emphasize how dangerously addictive the power is, and impress that heavily on Ava. They channel when they must, and not more. I was limiting this to Wise Ones exclusively, not other "wilders." The term wilder, however, shouldnt apply to WO or Windfinders, because they are schooled, just not by the WT.

[David Selig]

Morgase barely ever channels yet has slowed significantly.

Significantly? She's hardly into her forties. How much could she have slowed? Actually, I think she's mentioned more than once as a 'mature' version of her daughter, which too me suggests at the very least a 35 year old (and probably more), albeit one who aged gracefully. A touch of slowing would certainly help to explain it (though it's not even required), but there's no support for the quantifier you used that I can think of.

Significantly as in "enough to be easily noticeable". She doesn't look 43-44 (her real age), she looks about 30. Jordan has confirmed it when asked. From Terez's interview database:

"Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn."

[yoniy0]

I haven't seen this before, thanks. But at 43, looking 10 years older than Perrin (which would be 32) is hardly enough to account for Rand's first impression of her. Either way, I guess this is all just a matter of impression, but I do still think it's over the top to say she's slowed significantly (Alivia at 414 is a good example of slowing, with only fine lines near her eyes. So is Siuan at 44, though there's the issue of the OR and her Stilling). Certainly, I find nothing inconsistent about her being extremely weak and still slowing so.

[Maleshub]

Morgase barely ever channels yet has slowed significantly.

Significantly? She's hardly into her forties. How much could she have slowed? Actually, I think she's mentioned more than once as a 'mature' version of her daughter, which too me suggests at the very least a 35 year old (and probably more), albeit one who aged gracefully. A touch of slowing would certainly help to explain it (though it's not even required), but there's no support for the quantifier you used that I can think of.

Significantly as in "enough to be easily noticeable". She doesn't look 43-44 (her real age), she looks about 30. Jordan has confirmed it when asked. From Terez's interview database:

"Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn."

I haven't seen this before, thanks. But at 43, looking 10 years older than Perrin (which would be 32) is hardly enough to account for Rand's first impression of her. Either way, I guess this is all just a matter of impression, but I do still think it's over the top to say she's slowed significantly (Alivia at 414 is a good example of slowing, with only fine lines near her eyes. So is Siuan at 44, though there's the issue of the OR and her Stilling). Certainly, I find nothing inconsistent about her being extremely weak and still slowing so.

 

Lucky Tallanvor!

[Naggash]

Wise ones dont channel nearly as much as an Aes Sedai.

Prove of this is that when they use the OP in Ruidhean to stop Couladin, a lot of the Aiel around looks impressed, and then Coul uses the fact that they can channel against the WOs.

Also there's some phrases like this regarding the Healing. "I had heard that a WO in [whatever Septiar etc] could make wound like this disappear, but had never believed it." It's not quoted, it's extracted from my memory so it may not be accurate but you know what I mean.

[Knivy]

Exactly. I just finished the first 5 books on my reread, and can remember rumors of the incredible healing capabilities of the WO.

[fionwe1987]

Wise ones dont channel nearly as much as an Aes Sedai. They emphasize how dangerously addictive the power is, and impress that heavily on Ava. They channel when they must, and not more. I was limiting this to Wise Ones exclusively, not other "wilders." The term wilder, however, shouldnt apply to WO or Windfinders, because they are schooled, just not by the WT.

It would be nice if you offer some actual proof. The Wise Ones emphasize the dangers of the OP and tell Avi not to channel too much?

So does Verin, and other AS, to Egwene and Nynaeve. Doesn't stop them from channeling, does it?

[Naggash]

It's not the same. Novices are told that they can't work with the Power without an Accepted or AS to watch over them; but at the same time they're likely expected to break this rules a little. We've seen a few times situations where they're caught and the punishment it's just a few straps in the ass (straps is correct?), and more to remember them of the tower law than because of the channeling itself.

WOs don't rely on the Power for anything as the AS do. They have the ability in some cases, they learn tu use it, and they have it as any other tool, be it a spear or a blacksmith hammer. They have much harder discipline than the WT, and so they sledom channel. Note that even their own people weren't aware of their channeling abilitie until Rand came.

[fionwe1987]

It's not the same. Novices are told that they can't work with the Power without an Accepted or AS to watch over them; but at the same time they're likely expected to break this rules a little. We've seen a few times situations where they're caught and the punishment it's just a few straps in the ass (straps is correct?), and more to remember them of the tower law than because of the channeling itself.

WOs don't rely on the Power for anything as the AS do. They have the ability in some cases, they learn tu use it, and they have it as any other tool, be it a spear or a blacksmith hammer. They have much harder discipline than the WT, and so they sledom channel. Note that even their own people weren't aware of their channeling abilitie until Rand came.

None of this is proof. Thier own people not being aware is because Wise Ones don't openly channel in front of those people. But we've seen apprentices channel to do some chores (heating rocks for sweat tents), we've seen apprentices recieve regular lessons. We've seen that WO can hold their own with basic channeling against AS... Unless you can show me some evidence that WO actually channel significantly lower number of times than AS, I'm going to take the cannon from the books that its impossible to do that and go with it.

[Naggash]

I think the Aiel discipline is prove enough. I would ask of you to bring me prove that they do. I can't think of more than one or two passages on the books where we see the WO channeling non-necessarily. We see them teaching Avi but that's plain normal. They must channel to teach her. And I can't think of any apprentice apart from Avi doing chores with the OP, and Avi only a few times. Also I wouldn't take Avi for the usual apprentice, since her lessons were intensificated because of the circumstances.

And still all of this after Rand appears. I would give for certain that they used the OP even less before that.

 

I may not have prove, and I'm certainly not going to search quotes from the books just to argue, but I think there isn't prove of them channeling like AS either; not on-screen.

So the same way you take that cannon, I take the cannon that AS look like little undisciplined childs compared to Aiel. An apprentice cought channeling for nonsense is likely to spend the next few weeks with fear of touching the source in case a WO suddenly appears xD

 

All in all, I get your point that I don't have prove. But since there isn't prove against it either I think my PoV is perfecly valid.

[yoniy0]

we've seen apprentices channel to do some chores (heating rocks for sweat tents)

That was Egwene, which really doesn't help your argument, even if Bair approved (I think it was she).

 

We've seen that WO can hold their own with basic channeling against AS...

And again, we've seen an entire clan's worth of WO fail to breach a perimeter defended by 35 AS. Specifically, we know that the WO had no formal knowledge of Healing (lacking skill isn't the same as not knowing the weaves), eavesdropping or Linking. They've developed some techniques unknown in the AoL (as did the AS, separately), but their knowledge of the OP is far inferior to that of the WT, and that is fact. How that reflects on the matter in question, however, is up for debate.

 

EDIT:

I'm certainly not going to search quotes from the books just to argue

That's too bad. It's one of the most effective ways to change minds. Right now, for example, I'm doubting my recollection of Egwene being the only apprentice to use the OP, but it's hard to look for instances of Aviendha's doing the same without context.

[fionwe1987]

That was Egwene, which really doesn't help your argument, even if Bair approved (I think it was she).

Of course it helps my argument:

 

"More steam, girl," Melaine said.

That was her, Egwene realized, with Aviendha gone. Hurriedly splashing more water on the rocks, she channeled to heat the stones further, and the kettle, until she heard stones cracking and the kettle itself radiated heat like a furnace. The Aiel might be used to leaping from roasting in their own juices to freezing, but she was

not. Hot, thick clouds rolled up to fill the tent. Amys nodded approvingly; she and Melaine could see the glow of saidar surrounding her, of course, though she herself could not. Melaine merely went on scraping with her staera.

Why would Amys nod approvingly, and Melaine go on as if nothing weird was happening, if apprentices channeling for chores was a no no?

And again, we've seen an entire clan's worth of WO fail to breach a perimeter defended by 35 AS. Specifically, we know that the WO had no formal knowledge of Healing (lacking skill isn't the same as not knowing the weaves), eavesdropping or Linking. They've developed some techniques unknown in the AoL (as did the AS, separately), but their knowledge of the OP is far inferior to that of the WT, and that is fact. How that reflects on the matter in question, however, is up for debate.

It absolutely is not:

Two-thirds of the women there could wield saidar, some not much more than Sorilea, others equaling Amys, who was as strong as most Aes Sedai Egwene had yet met; the proportions were about the same for Wise Ones as a whole. Their skills differed from Aes Sedai's—less in some places, more in a few, but generally just different—yet they should be able to sniff out any unwelcome gifts.

 

This is from Egwene, before she started teaching them the Aes Sedai's special skills.

 

And while Egwene makes many comments on the OP strengths of the WO, their skills, their ability to stand up to AS... not once does she say they channel less than AS do. That the Aiel don't know they can channel has nothing to do with them actually channeling, but with them being reluctant to talk about it, as Perrin informs us in his PoV in LoC.

[yoniy0]

You got me there, it was Amys (I shouldn't known Bair wouldn't be the one, really). But the fact that they approve of an AS using saidar for her chores isn't indicative of a similar trend among Aiel apprentices. In fact, I can't think of an example of an Aiel using the Source for mundane reasons, such as Rand's and Elayne's tendency for floating trays across the room.

 

As to the other thing, it was Egwene who thought so. She's still a tad naive at that point. However, she later thinks:

Egwene smiled. She did want the Wise Ones to train in the Tower. There were many methods of channeling that the Aes Sedai did better than the Wise Ones. On the other hand, the Wise Ones were better about working together and--Egwene admitted reluctantly--with leadership.

Which, more than actually saying the WO have less knowledge ('more' isn't 'most'), makes it rather clear that she considers the WO's strength as being in other areas.

 

Finally, I already said that proficiency with the OP isn't necessarily indicative of one's level of use. But denying that the WO are less proficient, well, I just can't see a case for that.

[Suttree]

You got me there, it was Amys (I shouldn't known Bair wouldn't be the one, really). But the fact that they approve of an AS using saidar for her chores isn't indicative of a similar trend among Aiel apprentices. In fact, I can't think of an example of an Aiel using the Source for mundane reasons, such as Rand's and Elayne's tendency for floating trays across the room.

 

As to the other thing, it was Egwene who thought so. She's still a tad naive at that point. However, she later thinks:

Egwene smiled. She did want the Wise Ones to train in the Tower. There were many methods of channeling that the Aes Sedai did better than the Wise Ones. On the other hand, the Wise Ones were better about working together and--Egwene admitted reluctantly--with leadership.

Which, more than actually saying the WO have less knowledge ('more' isn't 'most'), makes it rather clear that she considers the WO's strength as being in other areas.

 

Finally, I already said that proficiency with the OP isn't necessarily indicative of one's level of use. But denying that the WO are less proficient, well, I just can't see a case for that.

 

Yeah we do have this quote which would seem to indicate that.

 

ToM

"If anything," Egwene continued, "I feel that the previous agreement was not ambitious enough." She turned to the Wise Ones. "Amys, would you agree that the Aes Sedai have knowledge of weaves that the Wise Ones do not?"

 

"It would be foolish not to admit Aes Sedai expertise in these areas," Amys said carefully. "They spend much time practicing their weaves. But there are things we know that they do not."

 

On the flip side of that though IIRC in KoD when Perrin's crew is looking down on the camp and AS are calling out how many people are channeling. I don't see why they wouldn't use it for chores and their reaction seems to me to be indicative of that. In addition WFs almost certainly do in my mind. No question there.

[yoniy0]

Nah, even if they usually do, they wouldn't be doing chores either way when an army has just appeared around their camp. This is the only thing I could find; is that what you had in mind?

"Perhaps fifteen or twenty Wise Ones escaped the tea," Edarra said, "otherwise more would have joined in by now. I can see only nine women channeling. The rest must be among the tents."

[Suttree]

Nah, even if they usually do, they wouldn't be doing chores either way when an army has just appeared around their camp. This is the only thing I could find; is that what you had in mind?

"Perhaps fifteen or twenty Wise Ones escaped the tea," Edarra said, "otherwise more would have joined in by now. I can see only nine women channeling. The rest must be among the tents."

 

Actually it was CoT and it quite clearly to me indicates chores in the manner in which it is used...

 

Maybe he was using the Power in some way. Marline and Annoura were staring at the camp, too, the Aes Sedai licking her lips and the Wise One frown­ing. Perrin did not think Marline had intended to speak aloud.

“If you think I’ll walk away just because there are more Shaido than I expected,” he began heatedly, but she broke in, meeting his scowl with a level look.

“Too many Wise Ones, Perrin Aybara. Wherever I look, I can see a woman channeling. Just for a moment here, a moment there – Wise Ones do not channel all the time – but they are everywhere I look. Too many to be the Wise Ones of ten septs.”

He drew a deep breath. “How many do you think there are?”

“I think maybe all the Shaido Wise Ones are down there,” Mar­line replied, as calm as if she were talking about the price of barley. “All who can channel.”

[yoniy0]

Ah, yes, good catch. Well, this pretty much spells it out. They do channel every now and then, for mundane reasons.

[Knivy]

However, we do have Avi's quote in the Shadow Rising, in her tent with Rand, where she gets up to put out the candle. I do not own the books, so i cannot get an exact quote, but when Rand asks her about this she says something to the effect of "the power is dangerous, dont use it unless you need to." The heating of the stones with the power is kinda necessary, how else are you going to heat them? There was no reference to a fire heating them. The quote for CoT is pretty convincing, but you also have to remember that it is the Shaido, with so much already perverted with Aiel culture, its not a far leap to see this. Now I know that isnt definitive, but we have to consider if the same activity would be occurring pre-break, in Aiel culture as it had been for the past however many thousand years prior.

[Naggash]

However, we do have Avi's quote in the Shadow Rising, in her tent with Rand, where she gets up to put out the candle. I do not own the books, so i cannot get an exact quote, but when Rand asks her about this she says something to the effect of "the power is dangerous, dont use it unless you need to." The heating of the stones with the power is kinda necessary, how else are you going to heat them? There was no reference to a fire heating them. The quote for CoT is pretty convincing, but you also have to remember that it is the Shaido, with so much already perverted with Aiel culture, its not a far leap to see this. Now I know that isnt definitive, but we have to consider if the same activity would be occurring pre-break, in Aiel culture as it had been for the past however many thousand years prior.

Agreed.

[Suttree]

However, we do have Avi's quote in the Shadow Rising, in her tent with Rand, where she gets up to put out the candle. I do not own the books, so i cannot get an exact quote, but when Rand asks her about this she says something to the effect of "the power is dangerous, dont use it unless you need to." The heating of the stones with the power is kinda necessary, how else are you going to heat them? There was no reference to a fire heating them. The quote for CoT is pretty convincing, but you also have to remember that it is the Shaido, with so much already perverted with Aiel culture, its not a far leap to see this. Now I know that isnt definitive, but we have to consider if the same activity would be occurring pre-break, in Aiel culture as it had been for the past however many thousand years prior.

Agreed.

 

I would need to see the Avi quote to comment either way. Proof was requested and proof was given. Time for the other side to start providing something concrete that says it is not the case.