Seanchan Prophecy

[Finnssss22]

Out of three occurrences in TGS, this is the only one which mentions this 'first'. And none did before. I bet it's a mistake, but nonetheless, it's not your mistake either way.

 

Regarding the ta'veren thing, I know of no foretellings, Dreams or viewings specifically concerning Mat after TG (every dire prediction around him I can recall tends to relate to his usage of gunpowder in warfare, which he's already doing). What did you mean?

 

Pretty sure the reference is to the mentioned Outrigger novels, particularly the one where Mat accompanies Tuon back to Seanchan to reclaim it.

[Maleshub]

Out of three occurrences in TGS, this is the only one which mentions this 'first'. And none did before. I bet it's a mistake, but nonetheless, it's not your mistake either way.

 

Regarding the ta'veren thing, I know of no foretellings, Dreams or viewings specifically concerning Mat after TG (every dire prediction around him I can recall tends to relate to his usage of gunpowder in warfare, which he's already doing). What did you mean?

 

It is a matter of personal interpretation; but the mention of "First Prince of the Ravens" right after Tuon was set to announce herself Empress might hold significane; or it might, as you say, be an insignificant mistake. The question that motivates this is: "Does the husband of the Daughter of the Nine Moons hold the same status as the husband of the Empress?" What if the two were alive at the same time (i.e. Mat marrying Tuon when her father and mother were still alive)?

 

As to foretellings, there was a Perrin dream of a wiry man who had kings and queens bowing to him. My first impulse on that was "Mat." And there is the dream of him "balancing 2 Aes Sedai with the fate of the world in the balance" that I see as something that extends beyond TG. There is the foreshadowing when he sent Bethamin and Seta to Tar Valon, telling them to learn so that they can help him convince Tuon to free damane without destroying the Empire. And finally there are the outriggers that were planned to cover Mat and Tuon in Seanchan.

[yoniy0]

Foreshadowing and metadata (the plans for outriggers) involve what Mat would do, not whether he'd have to be ta'veren for that (if Egwene could be named Amyrlin as an Accepted and unify the Tower without being one, why would Mat need to?)

 

And, regarding the AS on the scale, many thought it was referring to his decision not to open the letter (i.e., Verin vs. Moiraine). I'm not so sure, but I see no reason it shouldn't be relevant to TG (especially with the fate of the world depending on it), and either way it says nothing of his ta'verenness. Though I'm interested to hear what makes you think it extends beyond TG.

[Maleshub]

Foreshadowing and metadata (the plans for outriggers) involve what Mat would do, not whether he'd have to be ta'veren for that (if Egwene could be named Amyrlin as an Accepted and unify the Tower without being one, why would Mat need to?)

 

And, regarding the AS on the scale, many thought it was referring to his decision not to open the letter (i.e., Verin vs. Moiraine). I'm not so sure, but I see no reason it shouldn't be relevant to TG (especially with the fate of the world depending on it), and either way it says nothing of his ta'verenness. Though I'm interested to hear what makes you think it extends beyond TG.

 

Egwene was named Amyrlin because Rand needs her in that capacity come TG. As to the issue of ta'veren-ness, the question is "Is there evidence that it is a part-time job?" We know that ta'veren are people (full lifespan) spun out by the pattern to set things right or set things in a certain direction. It was never hinted before, as far as I remember, that it was a limited gift where (i.e.) Hawkwing was non-ta'veren, then ta'veren, and then non-ta'veren again.

 

The manifestation of ta'veren-ness might vary depending on need; but that person is still ta'veren. For example, the Dragon's ta'veren-ness had Tam find him and save his life; had him taken to the back end of now-where away from the searching eyes of the White Tower and the Dark One; and then (after a hiatus of many years) had him survive all the attacks starting with "Winternight" till now. But that doesn't make Rand non-ta'veren in his first 19 years of existence, and non-ta'veren after he seals the DO. That's how I understand it.

 

As to the Aes Sedai, it could be Verin and Moiraine. Or it could be Bethamin and Seta. Or it could be a combination of one of each pair. Or it could be Tuon and Moiraine. And it could include Setalle Anan if she's somehow healed. As I said, it is a matter of personal interpretation.

[Taryn]

I believe that Mat, Perrin, and Rand became Taveren not too much before Moiraine and Lan appeared in the Two Rivers, as in a couple of weeks. I don't quite remember this exactly. so hopefully someone with more knowledge (or more time to go quote diving) can confirm/deny.

[yoniy0]

"Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose." He let out a booming chuckle. "Elder Haman would be proud of me. He always droned on, and the books about traveling were much more interesting, but I did listen sometimes."

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim), Jul, 2002

Question

Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

Robert Jordan

You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

[Suttree]

We know that ta'veren are people (full lifespan) spun out by the pattern to set things right or set things in a certain direction. It was never hinted before, as far as I remember, that it was a limited gift where (i.e.) Hawkwing was non-ta'veren, then ta'veren, and then non-ta'veren again.

 

Nope sorry Theodril but that isn't how it works. Being Ta'veren ebbs and flows.

 

edit: Yoniy0 provided a quote already. Should have read farther down...

[Maleshub]

"Yes, that's it. But sometimes the change chooses you, or the Wheel chooses it for you. And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern. Artur Hawkwing was ta'veren. So was Lews Therin Kinslayer, for that matter, I suppose." He let out a booming chuckle. "Elder Haman would be proud of me. He always droned on, and the books about traveling were much more interesting, but I did listen sometimes."

COT: 'Glimmers' Ebook Q&A (Verbatim), Jul, 2002

Question

Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

Robert Jordan

You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

 

Thanks, yoniy0, for the lesson and filling that gap of ignorance in my WoT knowledge.

 

 

We know that ta'veren are people (full lifespan) spun out by the pattern to set things right or set things in a certain direction. It was never hinted before, as far as I remember, that it was a limited gift where (i.e.) Hawkwing was non-ta'veren, then ta'veren, and then non-ta'veren again.

 

Nope sorry Theodril but that isn't how it works. Being Ta'veren ebbs and flows.

 

edit: Yoniy0 provided a quote already. Should have read farther down...

 

True, I learn something new every discussion I have on this forum. Maybe that's what keeps me coming back frequently :)

[Duskfire]

While theres no indication of whether Mat will sitll be ta`veren (he could still easily reclaim Seanchan after, not every influential person is a ta`veren) I like to think that it would be amusing if the one who has fought against fate so often and so much is still ta`veren afterwards, and indeed for most of his life.

[Gristle]

I have thought the same for a long time. I think Rand will kneel but it won't be meaningless because Mat was going to general this thing anyway and he can do it for Tuon if he likes; it makes little difference to Rand. And Tuon is the one who has to rule after Rand is gone; it's not like he's going to do it. And thus he binds the nine moons to serve him while he goes off to fight the Dark One.

 

I've always thought this too. Rand will have to meet with her again, and she will require something to make amends for their first meeting. Kneeling does not necessarily mean that he's swearing fealty or accepting rule. Based on their first meeting, it's probably going to be more along the nature of apology and/or showing that he's not the same person she met the first time. I don't think that the light-infused Rand will have issue with doing this to get what he wants - all he cares about is the final goal.

[Maleshub]

I have thought the same for a long time. I think Rand will kneel but it won't be meaningless because Mat was going to general this thing anyway and he can do it for Tuon if he likes; it makes little difference to Rand. And Tuon is the one who has to rule after Rand is gone; it's not like he's going to do it. And thus he binds the nine moons to serve him while he goes off to fight the Dark One.

 

I've always thought this too. Rand will have to meet with her again, and she will require something to make amends for their first meeting. Kneeling does not necessarily mean that he's swearing fealty or accepting rule. Based on their first meeting, it's probably going to be more along the nature of apology and/or showing that he's not the same person she met the first time. I don't think that the light-infused Rand will have issue with doing this to get what he wants - all he cares about is the final goal.

 

Bowing or kneeling to the Empress equals swearing fealty. If Rand does it under the current status quo, he automatically puts Illian under the Empire's rule (similar to Beslan and Altara). One way Illian won't be affected by Rand's bow would be to hand the Crown of Swords back to Mattin Stephaneos (sp) before going to meet Fortuona.

 

Another option would be for Rand to hand Illian to Mat under a special pact with the Empress, where Illian will have autonomy under the Empire (no damane collaring, and no soldiers for the Empress, in exchange for a non-aggression agreement and a tax). I've always laughed at Mat's reaction to Talmanes' suggestion of Rand giving him grand estates! What could be a grander estate than a whole kingdom?!!!

 

It is looking like the Dragon's armies will be hard-pressed after the Caemlyn battle and Borderlands onslaught to a degree that Rand sends Mat to Ebou Dar to "bind the nine moons" to him. And that holds a ton of potential and possibilities.

[Finnssss22]

Bowing or kneeling to the Empress equals swearing fealty. If Rand does it under the current status quo, he automatically puts Illian under the Empire's rule (similar to Beslan and Altara). One way Illian won't be affected by Rand's bow would be to hand the Crown of Swords back to Mattin Stephaneos (sp) before going to meet Fortuona.

 

Another option would be for Rand to hand Illian to Mat under a special pact with the Empress, where Illian will have autonomy under the Empire (no damane collaring, and no soldiers for the Empress, in exchange for a non-aggression agreement and a tax). I've always laughed at Mat's reaction to Talmanes' suggestion of Rand giving him grand estates! What could be a grander estate than a whole kingdom?!!!

 

This is actually an interesting idea given Illian's history for calling the Hunt for the Horn and Mat of course being the actual Horn sounder.

 

I don't think we have ever been told what the connection is between Illian and Horn in the first place and while the Horn is not mentioned in the KC, Tuon clearly mentions a reference to a possible prophecy (EC perhaps) in KoD 8.

 

KoD 8 "Dragons' Eggs":

"A great deal, Toy. For one thing, he must kneel to the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don. The Prophecies are clear on that, but I haven't even been able to learn where he is. It becomes still more urgent if he is the one who sounded the Horn of Valere, as I suspect."

"The Horn of Valere?" he said weakly. The Prophecies said what? "It's been found, then?"

"It must of been, mustn't it, if it was sounded?" she drawled dryly. "The reports I've seen from the place where it was blown, a place called Falme, are very disturbing. Very disturbing. Securing whoever blew the Horn, man or woman, may be as important as securing the Dragon Reborn himself. Are you going to play a stone or not, Toy?"

[Gristle]

You're probably right - based on the Seanchan's ability to quickly organize and discipline a people, it would make sense for him to turn over the general populace that he controls to them. The question of damane would have to be dealt with, but from a governmental perspective they are a far better choice for the people than the current setup, especially when you factor for the chaos that will ensue after TG.

 

I'm just saying that I don't think he needs to do that in order to fulfill this prophecy. If it's done during or after a discussion about those details, you're right, but these things never go the way they sound. He doesn't have to be kneeling in response to an "accept Seanchan rule" discussion in order to fulfill the prophecy. There are several scenarios that could result in him being on his knees in her presence that would be out of context with swearing fealty but still fulfill the prophecy.

[Suttree]

You're probably right - based on the Seanchan's ability to quickly organize and discipline a people, it would make sense for him to turn over the general populace that he controls to them. The question of damane would have to be dealt with, but from a governmental perspective they are a far better choice for the people than the current setup, especially when you factor for the chaos that will ensue after TG.

 

Actually that is a misconception. Seanchan has rarely known peace. There are constant revolts and sedition on that continent as evidenced by the quotes from Karede and the Seeker in TFoH when Rand and Avi go over. In Randland proper the Domani and Taraboners are in revolt. We can probably count Amadacia as well now that the WC's are following Galad not Asunawa. The stability of that country is mainly propaganda and what seem to be the one plus to such a rigid system is not truly the case. That is before you even factor in Damane, caste slavery and the like.

[yoniy0]

I think damane is part of what allows them to keep what stability they do have (after all, a whole continent under the same rule for 300 years isn't nothing) -- it allows for the use of devastating power when dealing with revolts. Take that away, and I'm not sure the rest of the structure would hold. Of course, even with damane, I believe their days are numbered. No society in which top ranking generals must always be suspect can last for very long (Aviendha's vision notwithstanding).

[Gristle]

Good points. I'm not in a "digging up quotes" mood, but there was a chapter or two from a Seanchan POV (I think it was Tylee?) where she talks about how bad it was that the governments let people starve and that she was proud of the distribution of food, putting everyone to work, etc. And I believe there was some reference to people actually being happier once they accepted the yoke. Right or wrong, this was what got me thinking that they could restore order better than the current monarchies.

 

Their history, and their methods, certainly indicate an inability to create lasting peace. No matter what they do for the commoners, the slavery aspect ensures there will always be rebels, and taking lands by conquest ensures no shortage of nationalists (Beslan, Ituralde, et al.). At the same time, their experience with rebellions, restoring order, etc. means that they will likely be the first and best to fill the vacuum after TG. Unless the AS decide to try to take over, none of the other governments are going to be in a position to do much but tenuously hold their own main cities (if they're lucky). The Seanchan are the experts at using this chaos to establish rule. To your point, though, they won't maintain it long - isn't there some quote about TG being over, but battle continuing? Plus Aviendha's visions, etc. etc.