Seanchan Prophecy

[Duskfire]

Are they neccessarily faked though? Moridin does have that book of dark prophecies. Perhaps his alterations are actually legitimate. Can still sow chaos with truth. After all, maybe Rand will bow down to the Empress.

[Suttree]

Are they neccessarily faked though? Moridin does have that book of dark prophecies. Perhaps his alterations are actually legitimate. Can still sow chaos with truth. After all, maybe Rand will bow down to the Empress.

 

We have pieces that are in fairly direct conflict. That would indicate them being faked to me.

[Deadsy]

I don't think it's going to matter whether they were corrupted. I think Rand will kneel but it will be meaningless because he'll ignore any attempt by Tuon to take charge.

[Terez]

I have thought the same for a long time. I think Rand will kneel but it won't be meaningless because Mat was going to general this thing anyway and he can do it for Tuon if he likes; it makes little difference to Rand. And Tuon is the one who has to rule after Rand is gone; it's not like he's going to do it. And thus he binds the nine moons to serve him while he goes off to fight the Dark One.

[Finnssss22]

I just wish we had more of an idea of exactly where the Prince of the Ravens stands in Seanchan hierarchy.

The High Blood seems a given but above say Galgan, not sure I would bet the farm on that.

And the title itself, I've always wondered if it means he is now the head of all things related directly to the Ravens or maybe more specifically, all property owned by Tuon/royal family like the Seekers, the Deathwatch Guard and most damane.

[Sharaman]

He may be the most valuable property owned by the Empress (MSLF) and/or the possessor of royal blood by decree/ ex officio,

Tuon's dad rebelled against her mom iirc? Assuming he wasn't a total idiot, he must have had the ability to command some forces to even think he had a chance.

Going by real world societies (Turkey, China, India) from where RJ borrowed his Seanchan social concepts from, Mat's position in hierarchy wouldn't be set in stone.

It was quite common for a "slave" to ascend very high posts of real power and some unions of slaves (the Janissaries, palace eunuchs) held huge influence in those empires. Going by the examples of High Lord Turak/ HL Suroth, and the way other 'Chan treat / address them visavis Mat, Mat has very serious seniority.

[Deadsy]

Tuon's dad rebelled against her mom iirc?

 

He didn't. Here are the only quotes about him that I recall:

 

Her mother had loved her father, it was said.

 

“My father called himself a gambler,” Tuon said softly. “He died of a bad wager.”

(Though I suppose you could read into that quote anything you want)

[Terez]

If I had to guess I'd say he answers to no one except for Tuon. And the Seekers, of course, but after the fiasco with General Thom Merrilin I'd say Mat has a pretty good hold on them too. I wonder if Mor is still hanging around; I like him.

[Finnssss22]

If I had to guess I'd say he answers to no one except for Tuon. And the Seekers, of course, but after the fiasco with General Thom Merrilin I'd say Mat has a pretty good hold on them too. I wonder if Mor is still hanging around; I like him.

 

That's what I'm thinking as well but I still don't believe Mat is above Galgan overall.

I think the forces they command are quite separate from each other. Galgan can no more command Mat, than Mat can command Galgan and both only answer to Tuon.

Mat heads the royal house as it were.

 

Although I doubt it's going to take Galgan long to recognise that Mat is a man amongst boys in regards to Warfare and any advice Mat offers will get a great deal of weight.

[yoniy0]

I highly doubt that, in a society where one cannot trust one's husband, the Prince of Ravens is given command of the Empress's defenses. Having command of the army is much more logical (as in, you always suspect your generals, but that needn't interfere with their usefulness).

[Finnssss22]

I highly doubt that, in a society where one cannot trust one's husband, the Prince of Ravens is given command of the Empress's defenses. Having command of the army is much more logical (as in, you always suspect your generals, but that needn't interfere with their usefulness).

 

Good point, you could be right but under that thinking, wouldn't command of the entire army actually be even more of a threat than just being in command of the Royal house? I mean I doubt commanding any of the Deathwatch guard or Royal Sul'dam to not protect the Empress, is going to get you very far heh.

I don't know about you but I get the distinct impression from Tuon that Galgan is by far the biggest threat to her rule IF he so chose.

We shall see I guess.

[Durinax]

I highly doubt that, in a society where one cannot trust one's husband, the Prince of Ravens is given command of the Empress's defenses. Having command of the army is much more logical (as in, you always suspect your generals, but that needn't interfere with their usefulness).

 

Good point, you could be right but under that thinking, wouldn't command of the entire army actually be even more of a threat than just being in command of the Royal house? I mean I doubt commanding any of the Deathwatch guard or Royal Sul'dam to not protect the Empress, is going to get you very far heh.

I don't know about you but I get the distinct impression from Tuon that Galgan is by far the biggest threat to her rule IF he so chose.

We shall see I guess.

just look at how it was with scipio africanus or julius caesar, both where effective generals that the leaders of the culture thought should be eradicated because they where too powerful/conspicuous. I think the important thing is that Tuon must give the soldiers a fierce nationalistic flame or at least have the benefits of being under her control be greater than any benefits rebelling could give

[yoniy0]

Finnssss, you demonstrate yourself that Tuon suspects Galgan, and considered it a fact of life and a legitimate state (she isn't sitting on her hands with him, but she doesn't just execute him as well). Therefore, one can operate with a suspect chairman of the joint chiefs, if you will. However, the Deathwatch Guards make a point of obeying no one but her, and well they should. No one could order them to kill her, true, but to arrange the shifts so that an assassin could get through the cracks, well, that's a real threat.

[Finnssss22]

Finnssss, you demonstrate yourself that Tuon suspects Galgan, and considered it a fact of life and a legitimate state (she isn't sitting on her hands with him, but she doesn't just execute him as well). Therefore, one can operate with a suspect chairman of the joint chiefs, if you will. However, the Deathwatch Guards make a point of obeying no one but her, and well they should. No one could order them to kill her, true, but to arrange the shifts so that an assassin could get through the cracks, well, that's a real threat.

 

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against what you're saying. You definitely have a good point.

Enough that I'm not sure which way to go on it now.

[Durinax]

Finnssss, you demonstrate yourself that Tuon suspects Galgan, and considered it a fact of life and a legitimate state (she isn't sitting on her hands with him, but she doesn't just execute him as well). Therefore, one can operate with a suspect chairman of the joint chiefs, if you will. However, the Deathwatch Guards make a point of obeying no one but her, and well they should. No one could order them to kill her, true, but to arrange the shifts so that an assassin could get through the cracks, well, that's a real threat.

I doubt something like that would happen though, she obviously has the seekers watching Galgran very closely so adjusting the deathwatch shifts (which I doubt he can even do) would likely not go through, and would likely cause him his head

[yoniy0]

Finnssss, glad to hear it!

 

I can't decide whether you've responded to my argument, or mistaken it for suggesting Galgan might try to assassinate Tuon by ordering her bodyguards, Durinax. In case it's the former, shift changes can be made for many reasons, not a few of them constructive (as in reaction to a change in her schedule, for example). And after a while, if one is dutiful, they would grow to suspect his orders less. This is why I don't believe a Prince of the Ravens would be given that authority (recall how remarkable Tuon finds it that she could trust Mat).

[Durinax]

Finnssss, glad to hear it!

 

I can't decide whether you've responded to my argument, or mistaken it for suggesting Galgan might try to assassinate Tuon by ordering her bodyguards, Durinax. In case it's the former, shift changes can be made for many reasons, not a few of them constructive (as in reaction to a change in her schedule, for example). And after a while, if one is dutiful, they would grow to suspect his orders less. This is why I don't believe a Prince of the Ravens would be given that authority (recall how remarkable Tuon finds it that she could trust Mat).

I thought you where refering to a situation like when Hanlon (?) tried to shift andoran troop rotations to allow for arsons and such. Galgan was just the nearest name that I saw, and some discussion about him so thats the name I used. All I was saying is that him (or likely even the Prince of Ravens) would be under constant watch by the seekers and most likely the deathwatch can only be commanded by the empress or by their own generals, not by high blood

[Finnssss22]

Finnssss, glad to hear it!

 

I can't decide whether you've responded to my argument, or mistaken it for suggesting Galgan might try to assassinate Tuon by ordering her bodyguards, Durinax. In case it's the former, shift changes can be made for many reasons, not a few of them constructive (as in reaction to a change in her schedule, for example). And after a while, if one is dutiful, they would grow to suspect his orders less. This is why I don't believe a Prince of the Ravens would be given that authority (recall how remarkable Tuon finds it that she could trust Mat).

 

No no, I was just responding to your point. I never took it as suggesting Galgan would attempt an assassination.

 

The hardest thing for me to put aside in fully embracing your side is Mat's title itself.

He is the Prince of the Ravens, not just the Prince of Ravens.

I find that distinction important considering what having a Raven tattoo means and how the Tower of Ravens and the Seekers operate/rank in Seanchan society.

 

Like I said, you have gotten me back to a more neutral position on the subject and I prolly won't be budging from that position until it's actually revealed in aMoL.

[Duskfire]

As such, he probably doesnt have any real power at the moment; its just a formal title displaying his marriage to the Empress. However that will change; Mat is far too good a general and too strong a ta`veren not to at least shape Seanchan customs in some way. I wouldnt be surprised if the whole damane situation isnt the only thing that changes about the Seanchan way of life.

[yoniy0]

But does he have time to do it before TG, and will he still be ta'veren afterward?

[Maleshub]

But does he have time to do it before TG, and will he still be ta'veren afterward?

 

Why would he stop being ta'veren after TG? "Ta'veren-ness" is not restricted to or connected to TG; Hawkwing as example.

 

Another thing is that I remember Mat's title as "First Prince of the Ravens." It was another wording of the title; but I think "First" holds additional significance. He was Prince of the Ravens when he married the Daughter of the Nine Moons; would the title remain the same when he is husband to the Empress. I think a change and increased status is in order.

[TristanWebb]

Because you are only tar'veren as long as the pattern needs you to be.

[yoniy0]

Why would he stop being ta'veren after TG? "Ta'veren-ness" is not restricted to or connected to TG; Hawkwing as example.

 

Another thing is that I remember Mat's title as "First Prince of the Ravens." It was another wording of the title; but I think "First" holds additional significance. He was Prince of the Ravens when he married the Daughter of the Nine Moons; would the title remain the same when he is husband to the Empress. I think a change and increased status is in order.

What BC said, regarding ta'veren, though I don't see how the length of time Hawkwing was ta'veren even relates to Mat. On the other thing, I believe you're confusing Gawyn, Andor's First Prince of the Sword, with Mat:

When she married you. you became Prince of the Ravens.

[Maleshub]

Why would he stop being ta'veren after TG? "Ta'veren-ness" is not restricted to or connected to TG; Hawkwing as example.

 

Another thing is that I remember Mat's title as "First Prince of the Ravens." It was another wording of the title; but I think "First" holds additional significance. He was Prince of the Ravens when he married the Daughter of the Nine Moons; would the title remain the same when he is husband to the Empress. I think a change and increased status is in order.

What BC said, regarding ta'veren, though I don't see how the length of time Hawkwing was ta'veren even relates to Mat. On the other thing, I believe you're confusing Gawyn, Andor's First Prince of the Sword, with Mat:

When she married you. you became Prince of the Ravens.

 

My hunch is that Mat would continue to be ta'veren after TG. There are a few visions of his future that hint at his importance.

 

As to my confusion, here is its source:

 

TGS: A Halo of Blackness

(Fortuona PoV)

 

"Matrim would not like that, but he would have to see reason. He was First Prince of the Ravens."

 

True that this was an hour or so before Tuon declared herself Empress; but she would have been thinking of him as husband of the Empress during that PoV.

[yoniy0]

Out of three occurrences in TGS, this is the only one which mentions this 'first'. And none did before. I bet it's a mistake, but nonetheless, it's not your mistake either way.

 

Regarding the ta'veren thing, I know of no foretellings, Dreams or viewings specifically concerning Mat after TG (every dire prediction around him I can recall tends to relate to his usage of gunpowder in warfare, which he's already doing). What did you mean?