Nynaeve, the most arrogant character in WoT?

[b3arz3rg3r]

b3arz3rg3r (What is that supposed to say btw, just curious): I'm not villifying her because she's arrogant, you can be arrogant and think you're better than others, but not treat them like dirt. I'm villifying her treatment of others. As to the rest of your statement, you pretty much summed up exactly what I said, too long as being the top dog has given her that mentality.

 

It's a pun dating back to the 90s when I was playing Starcraft. It's a combination of bear, zerg and berzerker which is the name of the zealot unit in the german edition.

[Mr Ares]

It is not the case that one is generally rude on purpose. Any amount of thoughtlessness can be rude. If anything, it happens more often by accident than design. Cadsuane's actions, though, were done with forethought. That much is not in dispute - the malice part is a fabrication, of course, but her rudeness is a premeditated action, a means to an end. The problem is that you have a belief that rudeness is never justified, no matter what. Whereas, I would contend that while manners do have a role to play in the functioning of polite society, they are not an overriding concern. There are times when it is wholly justified to step outside the boundaries of good manners.

We’re not going to agree here. You believe rudeness has it’s place in society, I do not. Justified rudeness is still rudeness. As to the malice part, that’s my interpretation of the works. She shows no remorse (With 1 single exception, and I’d barely qualify that as actual remorse) and we have no POV’s of her thinking she could use another way.

We do have examples of her thinking she could use another way. Such as the one from CoT that has been posted in the thread recently. Those times, she does use another way. Also, while I agree that justified rudeness is still rudeness, it is also justified. That's the point. If it was not justified, it would not be justified rudeness.

 

 

Because I find your explanation lacking. Again, you speak to Cadsuane's rudeness serving a purpose. That she is not rude merely because she enjoys it, or because she has no other way of dealing people, or because it is an automatic first port of call. Which is exactly what has been put to you. Cadsuane doesn't act the way she does for the sheer hell of it, or for enjoyment. She does so to achieve her goals. According to you, Cadsuane goes out of her way to be polite to people unless she has a good reason not to. That is the conclusion that should be drawn from the points you make. And that is a good point, and one with which I agree.

Not sure what you’re saying here. Are you, agreeing with me?

I'm agreeing with the conclusion you should be making, based on your premises. Cadsuane is not rude to people she doesn't need to be rude to (your own assessment of her interactions with AS). Her rudeness is not done because she has no other way of interacting with people, nor is it because she has no other way of getting them to do as she wants. It is a specific tactic. For a specific purpose. And when she uses it, it is because it is the best - maybe even only - tactic available to her. If I need you to do X, and I cannot get you to do X by being polite, then I need to be rude to you. It is justified. (And I said need X, not merely want X.) So the conclusion you should be reaching is that Cadsuane is justified in what she does. But you shy away from that, because it would involve admitting you were wrong. Yet you also don't change your premises, so have merely reach an illogical conclusion.

 

 

Firstly, it's Suttree, not Sultree. Secondly, no we don't claim that. What we claim is that Cadsuane treats people as they deserve to be treated, generally, and is willing to use rudeness as a tool to achieve her goals. We (or I, at the least) also claim that rudeness can be acceptable.

It was a question.

How did the Ashamen deserve to be blackmailed? How did The Seafolk dignitary deserve to be threatened? I’d even question how Moriane deserved her treatment. Not to mention how Rand and Berlain deserved their initial treatment. However I’m forced at this point to point out that due to your wording, it’s implied that it’s how she believes they deserve to be treated. With those words, if someone believes someone else deserves to be killed, they could claim it’s not murder. So, if that’s your belief, I would say yes, you are correct. Still doesn’t invalidate my initial assessment of her.

Note the caveat, generally. As has already been noted, she also uses rudeness and bullying as tactics to achieve certain goals. Aleis did not deserve to be brought down by Cadsuane - she was a good woman, and good at her job. Further, if someone deserves to be killed, it is still murder to kill them. But some murders are more justified than others. The law recognises this, with what are known as mitigating and aggravating circumstances. All murders are murders, but not all murders are equal. Funny that you brought up her initial treatment of Rand again, something which has been dealt with many times. Anyone would think you weren't reading the thread properly. But we wouldn't expect behaviour so rude from you, so clearly you had just forgotten it.

 

Well, when you provided a list before, I did say that you were ignoring motive to look solely at action. Providing any number of examples of Cadsuane being rude doesn't further your point. Is she being rude for no reason? Is she treating people unfairly?

 

And cartel? Really, I saw us as more of a posse

It does further my point, that she is a rude ass. Which was my entire point. If you agree with that, then fine. If not, provide evidence pointing out that she isn’t. Just claiming that she has reason doesn’t solve anything. (Especially since the reason you provide is, she feels it’s necessary, again that justifies any action imaginable)

Your point was surely that she was unjustified in being rude? If you believe those actions of rudeness on her part were justified, we are in agreement - she does have good reason to behave as she does. If you believe her actions were unjustified, you should surely provide something to back up your point.

 

That's not a rebuttal to my point, that's an insult. Now, maybe there are some cultural differences coming into play here, but I think something here needs to be addressed. I don't know what the limits of politeness are considered to be in modern day Maryland, but I do know that in the Britain in which I was raised, calling man delusional - accurately or otherwise - is impolite. I would even go so far as to say rude. Yes, sir, I am calling you rude. You are persistently ill-mannered.

 

Please point out the insult. Here is the definition provided. I am claiming you are under false beliefs or opinions. Which I must point out I have been stating this entire time. You can claim what you want, feel free. I am not however, rude. To say someone is deluded is not an insult. (However if delusional in your language differs from mine, please refer to the definition provided below).

http://dictionary.re...browse/delusion

Well, my language is English. Not American English. Now, as to your link, we have the following definition: "a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact." To accuse someone of such is hardly polite. But if we are to give you the benefit of the doubt in which meaning of delusion you were intending, we come up with the one given the following example: "delusions of grandeur." To accuse someone of such, again, falls a little short of actual politeness. Further, words have meanings outside of their strict definitions - they can, for example, be considered pejorative. And, you see, that is the problem. You used a rather loaded word, rather than a more polite and neutral one. That is not the behaviour of someone who would never be rude. Whether the insult offered was offered through ignorance or intent, it was still perceived. A polite response would be to apologise, not to offer further veiled insult. "if delusional in your language differs from mine". From a gentleman, the correct response would be to say that no offense was intended. Trust me, I have spent time around people who are very good at being polite. I don't claim to be a polite man myself, although I can be polite when I put my mind to it.

 

Considering something is not taking an action. There is a difference between thoughts and actions. She might be thinking dishonourable thoughts, but she is not taking dishonourable actions. Also, why do you try to make a distinction between what she thinks is best and what is actually best? Of course she is acting according to what she thinks is best. As is Sorilea, for that matter. That she might be incorrect in her beliefs is neither here nor there. Truly, what difference do you imagine it makes to your argument? It's not about Cadsuane saving Rand from Sorilea's machinations, nor does it matter that Rand trusts one more than the other. If Cadsuane has a belief about what is best for Rand, then to act in what you believe is someone's best interest is surely a good thing, at least in terms of intentions.

 

Please go back and reread the statement you’re replying too and the statement that I replied too. At that point, we were discussing a hypothetical situation that you brought up.

No, we were discussing Cadsuane's betrayal of Sorilea. As I said back on page six: "What dishonourable actions? She didn't actually betray Sorilea."

 

Your actions put the lie to that.

You’re delusional. Or confused if it makes you feel better. Hell, I can say, you are wrong if you consider confused an insult as well. Or if you like, I can only use small words. Synonyms are great.

More insults? And yes, that is precisely what they are.

 

Rand frequently acted in a childish way. Her response was to treat him like a child. Rude? Perhaps. Deserved? Yes.

She just met Rand. She doesn't know he he acted, at least she couldn't have been sure because this was her initial meeting with him. Thus, you're wrong again.

Again? We haven't established that I was wrong once. Plus, her actions on first meeting were to learn of his character - provoking him was the best way of doing that. Thereafter, she knew his character, and adjusted her behaviour accordingly.

 

At times her rudeness truly makes no sense from that perspective though: when she is rude to Tam, she'd already failed, making Tam angry served no purpose at all in regards to Rand.

The problem here is that you bring up the Sanderson books. Several of us believe he did a bad job on Cadsuane. Things like her treatment of Tam are out of character. So, yes, she might have been rude for no good reason - but that is the basis of a criticism of BS doing a bad job writing Cadsuane, something of a different point to the one under discussion here.

[Vardar]

The problem here is that you bring up the Sanderson books. Several of us believe he did a bad job on Cadsuane. Things like her treatment of Tam are out of character. So, yes, she might have been rude for no good reason - but that is the basis of a criticism of BS doing a bad job writing Cadsuane, something of a different point to the one under discussion here.

 

The majority of my points were not in the Sanderson books. Again, no one has refusted why Cads rude to Berlaine in the initial meeting, and honestly the excuse of her "hearing about Rand from outside sources and deciding to be rude to him based only on that" is laughable. (Although you'll probably consider that an insult as well. I called your opinion laughable.

[Mr Ares]

The problem here is that you bring up the Sanderson books. Several of us believe he did a bad job on Cadsuane. Things like her treatment of Tam are out of character. So, yes, she might have been rude for no good reason - but that is the basis of a criticism of BS doing a bad job writing Cadsuane, something of a different point to the one under discussion here.

 

The majority of my points were not in the Sanderson books. Again, no one has refusted why Cads rude to Berlaine in the initial meeting, and honestly the excuse of her "hearing about Rand from outside sources and deciding to be rude to him based only on that" is laughable. (Although you'll probably consider that an insult as well. I called your opinion laughable.

No you didn't, as that's not my opinion (though your persistent misreading is impolite - if we keep this up, you'll soon be fit for polite society). Also, the point you respond to wasn't even addressed to you, but to avernite. As to why Cadsuane was rude to Berelain, well, she wasn't. She offered a compliment to Berelain, she followed that up with a curtsy. She followed that with a polite dismissal, so she could talk to Rand. No actual impoliteness.

[Vardar]

The problem here is that you bring up the Sanderson books. Several of us believe he did a bad job on Cadsuane. Things like her treatment of Tam are out of character. So, yes, she might have been rude for no good reason - but that is the basis of a criticism of BS doing a bad job writing Cadsuane, something of a different point to the one under discussion here.

 

The majority of my points were not in the Sanderson books. Again, no one has refusted why Cads rude to Berlaine in the initial meeting, and honestly the excuse of her "hearing about Rand from outside sources and deciding to be rude to him based only on that" is laughable. (Although you'll probably consider that an insult as well. I called your opinion laughable.

No you didn't, as that's not my opinion (though your persistent misreading is impolite - if we keep this up, you'll soon be fit for polite society). Also, the point you respond to wasn't even addressed to you, but to avernite. As to why Cadsuane was rude to Berelain, well, she wasn't. She offered a compliment to Berelain, she followed that up with a curtsy. She followed that with a polite dismissal, so she could talk to Rand. No actual impoliteness.

 

She called her a child. And not as in normal how AS speak to people child, she called her an actual child and said it was cute when children play.

 

And that was your opinion. Your opinion is she treats people like she believes they deserve to be treated, and you believe she formulated her opinion of him prior to meeting him from information gathered from outside sources. Since this is never confirmed in the text, it's merely conjuncture, therefore your opinion.

[Mr Ares]

The problem here is that you bring up the Sanderson books. Several of us believe he did a bad job on Cadsuane. Things like her treatment of Tam are out of character. So, yes, she might have been rude for no good reason - but that is the basis of a criticism of BS doing a bad job writing Cadsuane, something of a different point to the one under discussion here.

 

The majority of my points were not in the Sanderson books. Again, no one has refusted why Cads rude to Berlaine in the initial meeting, and honestly the excuse of her "hearing about Rand from outside sources and deciding to be rude to him based only on that" is laughable. (Although you'll probably consider that an insult as well. I called your opinion laughable.

No you didn't, as that's not my opinion (though your persistent misreading is impolite - if we keep this up, you'll soon be fit for polite society). Also, the point you respond to wasn't even addressed to you, but to avernite. As to why Cadsuane was rude to Berelain, well, she wasn't. She offered a compliment to Berelain, she followed that up with a curtsy. She followed that with a polite dismissal, so she could talk to Rand. No actual impoliteness.

She called her a child. And not as in normal how AS speak to people child, she called her an actual child and said it was cute when children play.

She said that after Berelain left - which would make it rudeness about her, not rudeness to her. And why do you think that it was said about her anyway?

[Vardar]

The problem here is that you bring up the Sanderson books. Several of us believe he did a bad job on Cadsuane. Things like her treatment of Tam are out of character. So, yes, she might have been rude for no good reason - but that is the basis of a criticism of BS doing a bad job writing Cadsuane, something of a different point to the one under discussion here.

 

The majority of my points were not in the Sanderson books. Again, no one has refusted why Cads rude to Berlaine in the initial meeting, and honestly the excuse of her "hearing about Rand from outside sources and deciding to be rude to him based only on that" is laughable. (Although you'll probably consider that an insult as well. I called your opinion laughable.

No you didn't, as that's not my opinion (though your persistent misreading is impolite - if we keep this up, you'll soon be fit for polite society). Also, the point you respond to wasn't even addressed to you, but to avernite. As to why Cadsuane was rude to Berelain, well, she wasn't. She offered a compliment to Berelain, she followed that up with a curtsy. She followed that with a polite dismissal, so she could talk to Rand. No actual impoliteness.

She called her a child. And not as in normal how AS speak to people child, she called her an actual child and said it was cute when children play.

She said that after Berelain left - which would make it rudeness about her, not rudeness to her. And why do you think that it was said about her anyway?

 

Yet rude nonetheless.

[TristanWebb]

There is very little evidence in her PoVs that she is rude because she likes it, she is rude because it is expedient. She wants to get her way and just bullying people into it is the easiest thing to do.

 

It makes her arrogant yes, but not sadistic.

[Vardar]

There is very little evidence in her PoVs that she is rude because she likes it, she is rude because it is expedient. She wants to get her way and just bullying people into it is the easiest thing to do.

 

It makes her arrogant yes, but not sadistic.

 

I don't believe I was claiming she's sadistic, however even being rude because it's expedient makes her a jerk (what I claimed). Or an Ass as I called her.

[TristanWebb]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you did. She -is- an ass, but with fairly good reasons for being that way which gives her a pass IMO. I think she is wrong in some of her reasoning, but as far as I can see she is sincere about wanting the world to be a better place and she needs to use a hammer to get it there rather than a scalpel.

 

She isn't the kind of person I want to be friends with, but she is the kind of person I want hanging around the banking lobby say to keep them in line.

[Vardar]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you did. She -is- an ass, but with fairly good reasons for being that way which gives her a pass IMO. I think she is wrong in some of her reasoning, but as far as I can see she is sincere about wanting the world to be a better place and she needs to use a hammer to get it there rather than a scalpel.

 

She isn't the kind of person I want to be friends with, but she is the kind of person I want hanging around the banking lobby say to keep them in line.

 

LOL!

[Suttree]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you did. She -is- an ass, but with fairly good reasons for being that way which gives her a pass IMO. I think she is wrong in some of her reasoning, but as far as I can see she is sincere about wanting the world to be a better place and she needs to use a hammer to get it there rather than a scalpel.

 

She isn't the kind of person I want to be friends with, but she is the kind of person I want hanging around the banking lobby say to keep them in line.

 

Vardarmus believes despite it not being part of her inherent nature, it is never acceptable for a character like Cads to utilize rudeness or bullying as part of her overall package of tactics while attempting to save the world. The odd thing is apparently it is acceptable to do so while discussing the topic with Mr Ares on a blog? One must have priorities after all. ;)

[Vardar]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you did. She -is- an ass, but with fairly good reasons for being that way which gives her a pass IMO. I think she is wrong in some of her reasoning, but as far as I can see she is sincere about wanting the world to be a better place and she needs to use a hammer to get it there rather than a scalpel.

 

She isn't the kind of person I want to be friends with, but she is the kind of person I want hanging around the banking lobby say to keep them in line.

 

Vardarmus believes despite it not being part of her inherent nature, it is never acceptable for a character like Cads to utilize rudeness or bullying as part of her overall package of tactics while attempting to save the world. The odd thing is apparently it is acceptable to do so while discussing the topic with Mr Ares on a blog? One must have priorities after all. ;)

 

No. Vardar believes it is never acceptable to be rude. Period.

 

Vardar also believes that you're free to take offense at whatever you like,however that doesn't make it an insult.

[muddasssir]

Yar sutt you have not responded to my post and somebody i think hit it spot on that we are differing on semantics.

[shortkut]

Yar sutt you have not responded to my post and somebody i think hit it spot on that we are differing on semantics.

exactly. One side says she did something rude/acted arrogant so she is rude/arrogant. The other side says she did it with a reason/purpose/to someone who deserved it so it doesn't count. Who gives damn which it is. Right now it is an argument of egos because no one want to let the argument drop

[muddasssir]

lol shirtkut if you are the one that made the original comment./ Then I guess you are new at these boards. We need a reason to argue and our favorite eggy hate is in abeyance for some reason, but i am getting some pretty positive vibes and have a feeling that we'll be back to eggy bashing real soon. So, rest assured that we will be

debating something pretty vehemently soon and most probably on the opposite sides. It is no fun if I agree with Sutt and you might not believe it but we actually agree sometimes

[shortkut]

lol shirtkut if you are the one that made the original comment./ Then I guess you are new at these boards. We need a reason to argue and our favorite eggy hate is in abeyance for some reason, but i am getting some pretty positive vibes and have a feeling that we'll be back to eggy bashing real soon. So, rest assured that we will be

debating something pretty vehemently soon and most probably on the opposite sides. It is no fun if I agree with Sutt and you might not believe it but we actually agree sometimes

I know it was my quote, but i'm not one to toot my own horn :)

 

I lurked for a while both before and after registering, and i never understood why there was so much more Egwene hate than Elayne hate.

[Vardar]

lol shirtkut if you are the one that made the original comment./ Then I guess you are new at these boards. We need a reason to argue and our favorite eggy hate is in abeyance for some reason, but i am getting some pretty positive vibes and have a feeling that we'll be back to eggy bashing real soon. So, rest assured that we will be

debating something pretty vehemently soon and most probably on the opposite sides. It is no fun if I agree with Sutt and you might not believe it but we actually agree sometimes

I know it was my quote, but i'm not one to toot my own horn :)

 

I lurked for a while both before and after registering, and i never understood why there was so much more Egwene hate than Elayne hate.

 

I thought it was my quote? IDK.

 

I don't hate Elayne, or maybe I just think she comes off as more level headed than you would expect of someone of her station. I.E. I give people a little more leaway in my head if I expect something different of them based on their raising. I dislike how she treats Mat in some books, and get really annoyed at her insistence that they're her citizens, but Mat gives it right back to her, and I love it.

 

I want to be pissed about how she treats Perrin when he comes to her palace, but my dislike of Perrin keeps me from being really mad. I'll admit I'm biased there.

[csarmi]

The problem here is that you bring up the Sanderson books. Several of us believe he did a bad job on Cadsuane. Things like her treatment of Tam are out of character. So, yes, she might have been rude for no good reason - but that is the basis of a criticism of BS doing a bad job writing Cadsuane, something of a different point to the one under discussion here.

 

The majority of my points were not in the Sanderson books. Again, no one has refusted why Cads rude to Berlaine in the initial meeting, and honestly the excuse of her "hearing about Rand from outside sources and deciding to be rude to him based only on that" is laughable. (Although you'll probably consider that an insult as well. I called your opinion laughable.

No you didn't, as that's not my opinion (though your persistent misreading is impolite - if we keep this up, you'll soon be fit for polite society). Also, the point you respond to wasn't even addressed to you, but to avernite. As to why Cadsuane was rude to Berelain, well, she wasn't. She offered a compliment to Berelain, she followed that up with a curtsy. She followed that with a polite dismissal, so she could talk to Rand. No actual impoliteness.

She called her a child. And not as in normal how AS speak to people child, she called her an actual child and said it was cute when children play.

She said that after Berelain left - which would make it rudeness about her, not rudeness to her. And why do you think that it was said about her anyway?

 

Yet rude nonetheless.

 

So you're being rude to Cadsuane right now. You keep calling her a bully (which she isn't).

You've also been called out (rightly) on being rude to Mr Ares.

Yet you state that rudeness is never justified (a very stupid belief in my opinion).

Hypocrisy too much?

[Suttree]

Yar sutt you have not responded to my post and somebody i think hit it spot on that we are differing on semantics.

exactly. One side says she did something rude/acted arrogant so she is rude/arrogant. The other side says she did it with a reason/purpose/to someone who deserved it so it doesn't count.

 

No necessarily. If you go back to the start the other side claimed she is a "selfish", "uncouth" bully, that she is rude for no reason and more recently that she thoughtlessly ruins lives. There has been more than enough textual evidence provided to show that isn't the case. She has been show to use the tactic which best fits any given situation. That in no way fits with the characterization given by some in this debate.

[muddasssir]

that was very polite of you csarmi come on people I said it to sutt and I am repeating it for everyone. There is absolutely no reason to insult each other we are all fans of perhaps the greatest fantasy epic ever written, and we are on the verge of gettin all the answers or well at least to most of them. It is time to rejoice so stop being angry with each other.

[muddasssir]

Sutt I am talking about me when did I say any of these things? any way let it be and let me ask all of you another question. Whwt will be the role of cads in the final book and wouldn't it be interesting to see the interaction between moir and cads as far as i remember there only interaction has been in new spring and moir herself is a major legend now. What sparks are going to fly when these two monumental egos meet.

 

PS: I will be really disappointed if this meeting turned out meekly

[Vardar]

So you're being rude to Cadsuane right now. You keep calling her a bully (which she isn't).

You've also been called out (rightly) on being rude to Mr Ares.

Yet you state that rudeness is never justified (a very stupid belief in my opinion).

Hypocrisy too much?

 

Cads is not real. In fact, she's not even an imaginary friend, therefore you cannot be rude to her. If she was an imaginary friend of someone on the boards, then a case could possibly be made that someone could be rude to her, and by extension the person imagining her. As it stands, you cannot be rude to someone to doesn't or never did exist. (Being rude to a memory of a person is possible as well in certian situations).

 

Called out, wrongfully so. Calling someone wrong or confused is not rude. How you call someone wrong or confused could be. Saying, "You're wrong" or "You're delusional" is not rude in itself. Now, those words in a non text based medium could be rude in themselves, but the tone of your voice and other things would come into play. With pure written communication, calling someone wrong is in no way shape or form insulting. Sure, other words could be added to make it insulting, but no were. I was even polite enough to call him sir when I said it. Try again good sir, you are wrong. (*Gasp* hope you're not insulted)

 

Now here this could be considered rudeness. Stupid is a negative word, however since you applied it to my belief and not my person, I woudn't take offense. Other's wouldn't be so kind, as Mudd said below you.

 

No, not at all.

[Vardar]

Yar sutt you have not responded to my post and somebody i think hit it spot on that we are differing on semantics.

exactly. One side says she did something rude/acted arrogant so she is rude/arrogant. The other side says she did it with a reason/purpose/to someone who deserved it so it doesn't count.

 

 

No necessarily. If you go back to the start the other side claimed she is a "selfish", "uncouth" bully, that she is rude for no reason and more recently that she thoughtlessly ruins lives. There has been more than enough textual evidence provided to show that isn't the case. She has been show to use the tactic which best fits any given situation. That in no way fits with the characterization given by some in this debate.

 

The vast majority of the "textual evidence" was provided by myself. So not sure how there has been more than enough to show it isn't the case when you provided less than I did proving my case.

[csarmi]

that was very polite of you csarmi come on people I said it to sutt and I am repeating it for everyone. There is absolutely no reason to insult each other we are all fans of perhaps the greatest fantasy epic ever written, and we are on the verge of gettin all the answers or well at least to most of them. It is time to rejoice so stop being angry with each other.

 

ehmm mudd

Sorry but I can't take you seriously after what you said on the Cadsuane/Aleis affair. I mean, they [Mr Ares, Sutt, etc] might have the patience but I don't. In my book, there is no point in arguing with someone who claims that Cads is being rude for no reason in the best-written and most clear example of the complete opposite. [ie the best example of Cads meticulous planning, why she does what and description of her doing what she don't like).

 

We can rejoice, just don't expect me to say anything intelligible :)