How did the Sisters link with that Ashaman?

[EmperorMayhem]

RIGHT, LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT

 

What happens when an Aes Sedai bound by an a'dam is used to try and kill people etc, the weaves can be "placed" but cannot form - they cannot have effect.

An a'dam is a proper circle, regardless of contributions etc. That's not a good rebuttal.

Therefore, we can logically conject from this that an Aes Sedai in a circle that would be used to make a weapon would be incapable of forming the weaves - they might be placed but the oaths would prevent them from being formed.

 

While this does create an interesting "qualification" to the supposed "overwhelming" control a circle grants, it's pretty obvious that this is already confirmed by the way a'dam work.

 

when a channeler is in a circle with other channelers, they are not laying down Any type of weave. they bring themselves to the brink of embracing the source, without actually doing it. and the leader takes it from them, which can be done forcably (as seen with nynaeve and the windfinders when they link to use the bowl of the winds). everything after that point is under full control of the leader of the circle. no comprehension or weaving of any kind is nessesary for the members of the circle. only that they be a channeler.

 

therefore, if an AS brought themselves to the brink, and a WO or Asha'man took the Control position, they could do whatever they wanted, without the AS being able to leave or anything, cuz they're not actually making any weave, and they are kept in there until the Controller decides to let them off. Completely at their mercy (another reason why the Forsaken rarely if ever link, cuz they don't trust eachother).

if an AS knew the Controller was going to make a weapon or kill a bunch of people or such things to do with the Oaths, they wouldn't bring themselves to the brink of the Source. they'd either not bring themselves to the brink, or they'd fully embrace the source instantly to prevent being in a link with such a person

[EmperorMayhem]

Not break loose, no, but Brandon said it was a good thing no AS was in Egwene's circle. Why? Well, only option is, something bad would've happened. What? Would Egwene simply not be able to weave fireballs directed at retreating raken? No, that's hardly a big deal. The only thing I can think of, that reasonably explains what he said, is that the Oaths would tax any AS in such a circle to the point of death, same as they do when two Oaths contradict (i.e., when obeying an Oath becomes impossible, no matter what you do).

 

why would this cause any problem to AS if they were linked with Egwene? is a Seanchan attack not reason enough to believe oneself in danger? there are multiple times in the story, that sees AS channel to save their lives, and its NOT from Shadowspawn, etc. so why would Sanderson say this?

[yoniy0]

why would Sanderson say this?

Because the 'danger' requirement isn't global. If I stand behind your back with a knife, you can't BF the dude right in front of you. The same way you can't use the Source to punish a retreating enemy. Not when it's not in defense of another sister's life, and mercy-killing one hardly qualifies. Evidently, Brandon and (perhaps more importantly) Maria concur.

 

Regardless of your thoughts on the matter, the fact that should such a restriction apply, something bad would have happened to any AS in that link, was my focus.

[rand4747]

well assuming that if you link and use the power as a weapon that the oaths can interfare. Then likely if already linked whenever you use it as a weapon it would cause the Aes sedai significant agony, They will be choking but as soon as you stop they should be alright again. Because they can not stop you doing it the oaths will work on them that way whereas if they wanted to use it as a weapon themselves it wont let them even try.

 

Now if you were linked but they were elsewhere and not even aware what you were doing there wont even be any harm. Its not against the oaths unless you know it is. Its a psychological thing. Thats why you can believe something true and state it is even if its not. Like the "Elaida is Black Ajah".

[fikkie77]

Maybe a weird sidestep, but this might also be a way to oust Black Ajah when you're not near the oath rod. Just link Aes Sedai in a circle and let an Ashaman create a weapon with the One Power. The ones that don't choak are Black Ajah. The rest might be dead, but the good cause takes sacrifices...

[Byzantine279]

As with the first oath, I think their perception is the most important part. If they believed that it was okay to use the OP the way Egwene was, they would have been able to without a problem, but otherwise participating in the circle would have horrible consequences.

 

If the Aes Sedai in a link have no idea that the person leading is creating a weapon, they should be able to do so without any issue until they realize what is happening.

[RandA lThor]

If they realize, they will probably die unless thu ca. convince them selves otherwise or the person in control lets them go.

[Benganza]

It all comes down to whether the Aes Sedai is aware of what is happening, all they know is what the leader of the circle is channeling not his intention, they don't even have to be in line of sight of him/her. And whether they consider being part of a circle is the same as actively doing something.

[Lacanos]

RIGHT, LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT

 

What happens when an Aes Sedai bound by an a'dam is used to try and kill people etc, the weaves can be "placed" but cannot form - they cannot have effect.

An a'dam is a proper circle, regardless of contributions etc. That's not a good rebuttal.

Therefore, we can logically conject from this that an Aes Sedai in a circle that would be used to make a weapon would be incapable of forming the weaves - they might be placed but the oaths would prevent them from being formed.

 

While this does create an interesting "qualification" to the supposed "overwhelming" control a circle grants, it's pretty obvious that this is already confirmed by the way a'dam work.

 

when a channeler is in a circle with other channelers, they are not laying down Any type of weave. they bring themselves to the brink of embracing the source, without actually doing it. and the leader takes it from them, which can be done forcably (as seen with nynaeve and the windfinders when they link to use the bowl of the winds). everything after that point is under full control of the leader of the circle. no comprehension or weaving of any kind is nessesary for the members of the circle. only that they be a channeler.

 

therefore, if an AS brought themselves to the brink, and a WO or Asha'man took the Control position, they could do whatever they wanted, without the AS being able to leave or anything, cuz they're not actually making any weave, and they are kept in there until the Controller decides to let them off. Completely at their mercy (another reason why the Forsaken rarely if ever link, cuz they don't trust eachother).

if an AS knew the Controller was going to make a weapon or kill a bunch of people or such things to do with the Oaths, they wouldn't bring themselves to the brink of the Source. they'd either not bring themselves to the brink, or they'd fully embrace the source instantly to prevent being in a link with such a person

Right:

Let's use a hypothetical link of 2. Aes Sedai and one male channeler. The strength the AS contributes couldn't be used to make a fireball to kill someone - the saidar element. The reason I used the terminology I did is because when you make a fireball, you craft the weave before "actualising" it (hence the frequent references to "having weaves ready").

Within the logic of the a'dam this makes perfect sense. People need to stop claiming it's somehow different without justifying it - the sul'dam leads the circle, hence the fact that Bethamin and Seta know all the combat weaves damane use.

[yoniy0]

The strength the AS contributes couldn't be used to make a fireball to kill someone - the saidar element.

You really don't know that, Lacanos, and it's odd that you of all people would ignore the evidence presented above, when you seem to resent unjustified posts.

[fikkie77]

RIGHT, LET'S GET THIS STRAIGHT

 

What happens when an Aes Sedai bound by an a'dam is used to try and kill people etc, the weaves can be "placed" but cannot form - they cannot have effect.

An a'dam is a proper circle, regardless of contributions etc. That's not a good rebuttal.

Therefore, we can logically conject from this that an Aes Sedai in a circle that would be used to make a weapon would be incapable of forming the weaves - they might be placed but the oaths would prevent them from being formed.

 

While this does create an interesting "qualification" to the supposed "overwhelming" control a circle grants, it's pretty obvious that this is already confirmed by the way a'dam work.

 

when a channeler is in a circle with other channelers, they are not laying down Any type of weave. they bring themselves to the brink of embracing the source, without actually doing it. and the leader takes it from them, which can be done forcably (as seen with nynaeve and the windfinders when they link to use the bowl of the winds). everything after that point is under full control of the leader of the circle. no comprehension or weaving of any kind is nessesary for the members of the circle. only that they be a channeler.

 

therefore, if an AS brought themselves to the brink, and a WO or Asha'man took the Control position, they could do whatever they wanted, without the AS being able to leave or anything, cuz they're not actually making any weave, and they are kept in there until the Controller decides to let them off. Completely at their mercy (another reason why the Forsaken rarely if ever link, cuz they don't trust eachother).

if an AS knew the Controller was going to make a weapon or kill a bunch of people or such things to do with the Oaths, they wouldn't bring themselves to the brink of the Source. they'd either not bring themselves to the brink, or they'd fully embrace the source instantly to prevent being in a link with such a person

Right:

Let's use a hypothetical link of 2. Aes Sedai and one male channeler. The strength the AS contributes couldn't be used to make a fireball to kill someone - the saidar element. The reason I used the terminology I did is because when you make a fireball, you craft the weave before "actualising" it (hence the frequent references to "having weaves ready").

Within the logic of the a'dam this makes perfect sense. People need to stop claiming it's somehow different without justifying it - the sul'dam leads the circle, hence the fact that Bethamin and Seta know all the combat weaves damane use.

someone in a circle without leading that circle has NO control of what is done with the portion of the One Power he or she contributes to. So, a fireball can be created in a circle of a man and 2 (non-BA) Aes Sedai when the man leads and directed to a random person (no shadowspawn, no threat). We know from what BS said that though the 2 Aes Sedai can't prevent the fireball from being created and used, they will suffer some nasty effect(s) (probably choking, like what happens when trying to lie).

[TristanWebb]

Within the logic of the a'dam this makes perfect sense. People need to stop claiming it's somehow different without justifying it - the sul'dam leads the circle, hence the fact that Bethamin and Seta know all the combat weaves damane use.

You need to justify how a sul'dam could be manipulating the weaves and still not know she is channelling. With long use they can learn to see the weaves, which explains how Bethamin and Seta know them. The damane is the one chanelling in that circle, the Egwene PoVs when she is a damane prove it. She is told to do something, she doesn't and is punished for it. Then she is told to do something she does and isn't punished for it. She isn't being used as a conduit to saidin, she is channelling herself. The sul'dam can force or restrict access to saidin but at no point does she actually channell herself, though she can if she wished to as show in Nynaeve PoV.

[yoniy0]

Actually, Tuon did channel through Joline once. Apparently, she doesn't view that as something bad. Perhaps it's something only the most experienced/gifted Sul'dam can do?

[fionwe1987]

Actually, Tuon did channel through Joline once. Apparently, she doesn't view that as something bad. Perhaps it's something only the most experienced/gifted Sul'dam can do?

I think this is true. Sul'dam who can do this are closer to the edge of channeling, I believe. Tuon seems very skilled at this, and probably had no issues seeing weaves.

[Terez]

The interesting thing is that 1) most of the ones who do this are much older than Tuon, and 2) we've not actually seen anyone else do it like that. I'm guessing only the der'sul'dam have anything approaching Tuon's skill with the a'dam. It may be that Tuon actually recognizes the fact that she's channeling (through the damane, of course) and doesn't have a problem with it, unlike some sul'dam who seem to have something like a block.

[fionwe1987]

The interesting thing is that 1) most of the ones who do this are much older than Tuon, and 2) we've not actually seen anyone else do it like that. I'm guessing only the der'sul'dam have anything approaching Tuon's skill with the a'dam. It may be that Tuon actually recognizes the fact that she's channeling (through the damane, of course) and doesn't have a problem with it, unlike some sul'dam who seem to have something like a block.

Meliteine, her der'sul'dam, seems to be able to do this, which supports your point. Melitene was shocked when the flows metled around Mat. And she sensed Joline embracing the source. However, she had to make Elaida weave Traveling, because she didn't know the weave herself.

[yoniy0]

Nynaeve did it as well, you'll recall.

[Lacanos]

My point therefore still stands. If it was simply a case of weaving through them so as to accurately recreate a circle, then the Der'Suldam would have discovered this.