Updated Moridin/Taim Thread

[Edynol]

I don't think Taim is Moridin. Remember when Rand was fighting Ishy in the sky, both Taim and another unnamed false dragon were elsewhere fighting and got thrown of their horses and captured. You can't be in two places at once. So unless Moridin killed the real Taim and took his place sometime later, they aren't the same.

[RandA lThor]

That I think is established, but I still stand by the fact that Moridin didn't even do that. First of all, Moridin doesn't have enough time to do the whole BT thing. He is the Nae'blis and he has a lot of other responsiblities. All the similarities you can contribute to Taim being Moridin's favorite dreadlord, that's why he may have the dreamspike.

[fyodor]

I don't think Taim is Moridin. Remember when Rand was fighting Ishy in the sky, both Taim and another unnamed false dragon were elsewhere fighting and got thrown of their horses and captured. You can't be in two places at once. So unless Moridin killed the real Taim and took his place sometime later, they aren't the same.

 

The theory is that there was a real Mazrim Taim who got defeated and captured (and freed) but the guy that showed up to Rand was Moridin. This is why Bashere was suspicious about his experience and why they had the whole exchange about him shaving his beard ( Graendal having disclosed in her POV it is hard to do an Illusion that stands up to touch).

[RandA lThor]

Or he could have just shaved so people wouldn't recognize him as easily if they haven't seen him before.

[OptimusPrime]

Or he could have just shaved so people wouldn't recognize him as easily if they haven't seen him before.

 

Heres what I dont like about this point.

 

If Taim is the favourite Dreadlord with extra cheese on his chips... how long has that been going on for? If Taim isnt Moridin, he really is the next best thing to a new Chosen. But for how long has he supposedly been this high up in the good books? Before he False Dragon'ed it up, yes?

 

Then why didnt he do a Mask of Mirrors till he got to Rand?

[Elan Tedronai]

If taim is moridin i will personally eat through a hat and post the video online.

 

There are just two different people with one as the big boss and the other is his leutanant

[RandA lThor]

Can i quote you on that?

[Halleck]

Originally I was thinking that Moridin and Taim were definitely different people, but fyodor made some very good points. I missed a lot of the details he listed. I am on the fence with this one, there are lots of things pointing to Moridin=Taim but just as many refuting it. To me the biggest one point in favor of saying they are different is their attitudes. Taim acts a lot more like Sammael did and how I imagine Demandred would act if he ever met Rand. Moridin doesn't act like that and I feel that even if he did have a desire to act like that he would be smart enough to hide his feelings so that Rand wouldn't notice.

[Mr Ares]

I don't think Taim is Moridin. Remember when Rand was fighting Ishy in the sky, both Taim and another unnamed false dragon were elsewhere fighting and got thrown of their horses and captured. You can't be in two places at once. So unless Moridin killed the real Taim and took his place sometime later, they aren't the same.

The theory is that there was a real Mazrim Taim who got defeated and captured (and freed) but the guy that showed up to Rand was Moridin. This is why Bashere was suspicious about his experience and why they had the whole exchange about him shaving his beard ( Graendal having disclosed in her POV it is hard to do an Illusion that stands up to touch).

The counter explanation for Bashere's suspicion and the shaving is to confirm to the reader that this man is Taim, not just a man under an Illusion - hence saying something only Taim would know. Sure, you could say that Taim was kidnapped, interrogated, replaced by someone under a less than perfect Taim Illusion who then went to Rand (rather than just show up as a male wilder and get accepted just as quickly), but it is a more convoluted explanation. Why would the Shadow bother? What do they gain?

 

Then why didnt he do a Mask of Mirrors till he got to Rand?

What would he gain? Most people don't know what Taim looks like. Things like shaving do just as much to muddy his description. Besides, as RJ said: "[A] man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly. Traveling quietly is not in his character." That would hold true even under an Illusion, so even if he knew the weave he would gain little from it in that situation.

[Kahsm]

If he were a high ranking DF, wouldn't he have had somewhere else to go to lay low? Someone else to beg to? I suspect if he is, he must have been recruited after Rand set him up in the BT then?

 

When you have orders from the Shadow, you do not hesitate to obey, no matter the price.

what better place to hide than in plain sight? Besides he couldn't keep running from Bashere forever, he has to sleep sometime and eventually Basheres army would have cought him asleep and he would die.

 

So you're saying he was possibly ordered to let himself be harried across Randland to "hide" himself, or Bashere's army would have caught him? But he's some super-high Dreadlord? Don't buy it.

 

I won't say he's not, but it doesn't really pass the smell test IMO. Does everything in WOT have to be so black and white? He wanted Rand dead so he must be an official darkfriend? never mentioned by one of the forsaken despite being so high? I'm venturing into hope now, but I would like to think there's something more than just ANOTHER minion who's done relatively little for so long.

[Barid Bel Medar]

So you're saying he was possibly ordered to let himself be harried across Randland to "hide" himself, or Bashere's army would have caught him? But he's some super-high Dreadlord? Don't buy it.

 

I won't say he's not, but it doesn't really pass the smell test IMO. Does everything in WOT have to be so black and white? He wanted Rand dead so he must be an official darkfriend? never mentioned by one of the forsaken despite being so high? I'm venturing into hope now, but I would like to think there's something more than just ANOTHER minion who's done relatively little for so long.

 

I was talking about why he went to Rand, rather than hide somewhere.

 

He did not know Travelling at this point, if he is indeed just Taim, he learns it from Rand.

 

So, if Taim is ordered to go to Rand and take his amnesty by Ishamael or the DO, he would have no choice but to be harried by Bashere. Just look at what the DO put Fain through in EotW to catch Rand and co. You obey your orders, even if it is potentially deadly, or you are punished. I think it is safe to say the pain the DO can inflict on those who disobey far outweighs being chased into Andor by Bashere.

 

This is, of course, if Taim was a DF from the start. I do not claim that. I answered to say that there was legitimate reasons for his actions, not that it was necessarily true. In fact, Taim could indeed have been turned to the Shadow after the BT foundation. He is far, far less cruel in LoC compared to KoD. He has definitely changed. He was never a nice guy, but LoC Taim was at least a bit sympathetic. Now he is almost as evil as you can get. It is clear SOMETHING has happened between LoC and KoD.

 

 

Ohhh, and RandA l'thor, your shaving question has been addressed.

 

INTERVIEW: Jul 16th, 2011

PolarisCon Report - herid (Paraphrased)

 

HERID

I also asked him again (Terez asked him about it on my behalf before) about why Taim when he first shows up in Lord of Chaos says that he shaved because of the heat, yet it's mentioned twice in that very scene that he is not sweating and he later teaches Rand the antisweating trick and tells him that it works so well that Rand would soon be able to completely ignore even extreme heat and cold. I discuss this in detail in my blog as I believe it proves that Taim is an impostor.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

He said that this issue is not discussed in the notes and he missed it himself previously so the best he can say is that this is meant to show that Taim is a suspicious character who is not to be trusted.

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 17th, 2011

Driving Mr. Sanderson - Terez (Verbatim)

 

TEREZ (HERID)

If Taim already knew how to ignore heat, why did he shave his beard? (Because of the way he read it.) That's not my question.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

I have no idea.

TEREZ

(laughs) I didn't figure you would.

BRANDON SANDERSON

That's a pretty random question. I don't even think that's in the notes; I'll be honest with you....that's really not the sort of thing Jim put in his notes, so I'm guessing...I can MAFO that one, if you want to ask Maria, but I really don't know.

MARIA SIMONS

I don't know either.

 

It appears that it is not an important detail. Something RJ didn't think was worth noting anyway.

[fyodor]

Or he could have just shaved so people wouldn't recognize him as easily if they haven't seen him before.

 

Who has seen him in Andor? He told Bashere that he shaved because of the heat but we know that he can ignore heat.

[fyodor]

I don't think Taim is Moridin. Remember when Rand was fighting Ishy in the sky, both Taim and another unnamed false dragon were elsewhere fighting and got thrown of their horses and captured. You can't be in two places at once. So unless Moridin killed the real Taim and took his place sometime later, they aren't the same.

The theory is that there was a real Mazrim Taim who got defeated and captured (and freed) but the guy that showed up to Rand was Moridin. This is why Bashere was suspicious about his experience and why they had the whole exchange about him shaving his beard ( Graendal having disclosed in her POV it is hard to do an Illusion that stands up to touch).

The counter explanation for Bashere's suspicion and the shaving is to confirm to the reader that this man is Taim, not just a man under an Illusion - hence saying something only Taim would know. Sure, you could say that Taim was kidnapped, interrogated, replaced by someone under a less than perfect Taim Illusion who then went to Rand (rather than just show up as a male wilder and get accepted just as quickly), but it is a more convoluted explanation. Why would the Shadow bother? What do they gain?

 

Under this theory the real Mazrim Taim isn't a Darkfriend. He wouldn't do what the Shadow wanted. This allows them to get a Forsaken into a position of authority.

 

Presumably, Danelle was a real Aes Sedai before Mesaana replaced her.

 

Regarding the beard, we've never seen Taim on camera before? Why mention that he's changed his appearance and have him offer up an obviously suspicious reason for doing so (that a man who can ignore heat shaved because it was too hot).

[RandA lThor]

He may not have wanted to tell Bashere that he shaved so that he could hide better from him.

[EmperorMayhem]

i've got a couple things... 1) if Taim used a Mask of Mirrors, or the character we know as him is someone else using a weave like that, it could be the reason he was shaved.. that he forgot to include the beard in his weave, and had to make an excuse for it? personally i don't think its important, if it wasn't thought of as important to either of the authors to put it down somewhere.

2)why did Taim think it was annoying to have to train male channelers at first, and then eventually become so good at it, and seem to be all about gathering/training up a darkfriend channeler army? i mean, it seemed so much like an afterthought. If everyone thinks he's secretly Moridin, and he's full of grand schemes and plots left right and centre, why did he start out saying that he didn't want to fill that role for Rand? feel free to discuss

[OptimusPrime]

He may not have wanted to tell Bashere that he shaved so that he could hide better from him.

 

Despite what Mr Ares said I think my point on that still stands. Either Taim wanted to hide his appearance, or he did not. I do not think there is some inbetween line as Mr Ares suggested, where shaving is good enough but Mask of Mirrors isnt. If Taim is the top level Dreadlord as is the popular excuse of everything, then he would know Mask of Mirrors. That is the most basic of weaves for any DF channeler of serious worth, and given the fact that Taims alleged job is to recruit an army of channelers I refuse to believe he doesnt know Mask of Mirrors, Travelling, etc, Thus, if he REALLY wanted to hide from Bashere, he would have made a Mask, no question about it. Yes, RJ said Taim finds it hard to travel quiet, but that doesnt mean he would be halfhearted in his atempts at something so mundane and easy as travelling with the best disguise one can get. The fact that Taim even gave the excuse of having a shave is, to me, the most patronizing thing Ishamael ever said. One of his best moments IMO.

 

So no, really. The shaving excuse really is a serious issue.

 

i've got a couple things... 1) if Taim used a Mask of Mirrors, or the character we know as him is someone else using a weave like that, it could be the reason he was shaved.. that he forgot to include the beard in his weave, and had to make an excuse for it? personally i don't think its important, if it wasn't thought of as important to either of the authors to put it down somewhere.

 

Ive done this way too many times, so Im guna have a go at explaining it once, then leave it.

 

IMO, Moridin got Taims body, it was Moridin who answered Rands amnesty first, been him since the first scene in LoC. Taims introduction is not Taims, it is Ishamaels reintroduction. BUT. For obvious reasons, the Nae'blis wouldnt want to appear to Rand with his new "natural" face. So he uses a Mask of Mirrors. BUT. Taims original beard would interfere with the altered face; half the beard would be poking out of the illusion it'd just look wierd, so he shaves.

 

Clarification:

 

What we see as Moridin in the Forsaken meetings, that is what Taim should look like. Except Moridin shaved for the above reason.

 

What we see as Taim, with the hooked nose and tilted eyes, that is a fake face. Bashere was like, "You're Taim?" and Ishamaels like "Sure I am! Its not the nose or the eyes thats throwing you off, its the BEARD." You know, the beard that made the disguise possible in so many ways.

 

And later, despite having his own doubts, Rand comes to the conclusion that it MUST be Taim, and not a Forsaken in disguise, because he can channel, which is the best of them all, because anyone who channels should be a confirmed suspect.

[FarShainMael]

I still see that whole scene as a collusion between Taim and Bashere to conceal from Rand that they're really in cahoots..

[fyodor]

If taim is moridin i will personally eat through a hat and post the video online.

 

There are just two different people with one as the big boss and the other is his leutanant

 

On the whole I think that there are a lot of big problems with this theory so I understand everyone's skepticism (I'm on the fence even though I started this post). That being said, I too would like to see some hat eating.

[fyodor]

He may not have wanted to tell Bashere that he shaved so that he could hide better from him.

 

Why? He's been on the run. Why introduce Taim have Bashere doubt his appearance and then only prove himself through some piece of common information? We've seen in this same book that the Shadow often kidnaps and interrogates people to get supporting background information ( as Semihrage does with Cabriana Mecandes so that Aran'gar can infiltrate Salidar). Why not just have Taim show up and have Bashere recognize him as Mazrim Taim? Do we see any other instances in the series where someone openly doubts the stated identity of someone they've met before based on cosmetic changes?

[fyodor]

Regarding point #1 we learn in the same book that it takes exceptional skill with the Mask of Mirrors to make an Illusion stand up to touch. Thus, unless he really wants a beard he can't make one show up.

 

i've got a couple things... 1) if Taim used a Mask of Mirrors, or the character we know as him is someone else using a weave like that, it could be the reason he was shaved.. that he forgot to include the beard in his weave, and had to make an excuse for it? personally i don't think its important, if it wasn't thought of as important to either of the authors to put it down somewhere.

2)why did Taim think it was annoying to have to train male channelers at first, and then eventually become so good at it, and seem to be all about gathering/training up a darkfriend channeler army? i mean, it seemed so much like an afterthought. If everyone thinks he's secretly Moridin, and he's full of grand schemes and plots left right and centre, why did he start out saying that he didn't want to fill that role for Rand? feel free to discuss

[Mr Ares]

I don't think Taim is Moridin. Remember when Rand was fighting Ishy in the sky, both Taim and another unnamed false dragon were elsewhere fighting and got thrown of their horses and captured. You can't be in two places at once. So unless Moridin killed the real Taim and took his place sometime later, they aren't the same.

The theory is that there was a real Mazrim Taim who got defeated and captured (and freed) but the guy that showed up to Rand was Moridin. This is why Bashere was suspicious about his experience and why they had the whole exchange about him shaving his beard ( Graendal having disclosed in her POV it is hard to do an Illusion that stands up to touch).

The counter explanation for Bashere's suspicion and the shaving is to confirm to the reader that this man is Taim, not just a man under an Illusion - hence saying something only Taim would know. Sure, you could say that Taim was kidnapped, interrogated, replaced by someone under a less than perfect Taim Illusion who then went to Rand (rather than just show up as a male wilder and get accepted just as quickly), but it is a more convoluted explanation. Why would the Shadow bother? What do they gain?

 

Under this theory the real Mazrim Taim isn't a Darkfriend. He wouldn't do what the Shadow wanted. This allows them to get a Forsaken into a position of authority.

Why not just show up as a male wilder, already experienced with channeling? What benefit does the name Taim bring?

 

Presumably, Danelle was a real Aes Sedai before Mesaana replaced her.

We know she was. She bore a resemblance to Mesaana already and lacked friends, that's why she was replaced.

 

Regarding the beard, we've never seen Taim on camera before? Why mention that he's changed his appearance and have him offer up an obviously suspicious reason for doing so (that a man who can ignore heat shaved because it was too hot).

Obviously suspicious? He doesn't offer it as a serious explanation, he's mocking Bashere. Also, Bashere's failure to recognise him comes from Taim looking older than he is, not just the beard (his looking older comes from RJ, and is due to the rigours of his journey, it isn't stated in the books). And if you wanted to get accepted as Taim, why not just wear a Taim Illusion? Why use a poor Illusion and then have to use the knowledge you gained from interrogating Taim to do the job, when if you showed up as anyone but Taim there would be no-one to say you were not who you said you were? The sheer number of hoops Taimidin has to jump through is quite staggering, yet that never seems to deter people. Any theory that relies on Taim being someone other than himself needs to be ridiculously complicated to work, and still leaves a lot unexplained.

 

He may not have wanted to tell Bashere that he shaved so that he could hide better from him.

 

Despite what Mr Ares said I think my point on that still stands. Either Taim wanted to hide his appearance, or he did not. I do not think there is some inbetween line as Mr Ares suggested, where shaving is good enough but Mask of Mirrors isnt. If Taim is the top level Dreadlord as is the popular excuse of everything, then he would know Mask of Mirrors. That is the most basic of weaves for any DF channeler of serious worth, and given the fact that Taims alleged job is to recruit an army of channelers I refuse to believe he doesnt know Mask of Mirrors, Travelling, etc,

We know he did not know Traveling. Your claim that he would know Illusion is based on what, precisely? If Taim is a "Darkfriend channeler of serious worth", he is one who stands outside the channeling groups we have seen. The Chosen know Illusion. The AS know Illusion, that includes BA. Thus we have no reason to say that this is a weave the Shadow routinely teaches people. Taim obviously has gaps in his knowledge of weaves that would prove very useful, so you cannot say that a man in his position would definitely know Illusion. If he cannot use Illusion - and we have no reason to believe he would know it - then what disguises are available to him? Well, shaving is an obvious one...

 

And later, despite having his own doubts, Rand comes to the conclusion that it MUST be Taim, and not a Forsaken in disguise, because he can channel, which is the best of them all, because anyone who channels should be a confirmed suspect.

No, Rand accepts that Taim is Taim because Bashere says he is Taim.

 

Why? He's been on the run. Why introduce Taim have Bashere doubt his appearance and then only prove himself through some piece of common information?

He doesn't. He proves himself through a piece of uncommon information.

We've seen in this same book that the Shadow often kidnaps and interrogates people to get supporting background information ( as Semihrage does with Cabriana Mecandes so that Aran'gar can infiltrate Salidar).

No, we see that the Shadow can kidnap and interrogate people to aid with infiltration. That the only time we have seen it done is with one of the Chosen in no way indicates this is common practice. Also, what would be the point? Why bother stealing Taim's identity? I already pointed out you could get the same results from just showing up claiming to be a male wilder (in fact, one of the Chosen did and got away with it). The name Taim is recognisable, but as a false Dragon. That's not exactly a recommendation. If I wanted to convince people to ally with me, I'm not sure putting people with a history of starting wars in positions of authority is the best way. Not unless I was giving up on diplomacy altogether.

[Kahsm]

I think RJ's point about Taim not being able to travel quietly is too quickly dismissed or played down. The man is clearly obsessed with himself. I mean he tried to negotiate to be something of a "co-Dragon". I highly doubt he would ever disguise himself, because then people wouldn't know who he was. I'd bet that while being chased, he still demanded accommodation and used his own name in doing so at every place he stopped along the way, even with an army following him.

 

And given his disdain for weapons, I'd also bet he used the OP to brow beat anyone who needed it. And if you're using the OP, that's going to mark you faster than a beard.

 

I don't know why he shaved his beard. Maybe he saw the Falme drawing and wanted to emulate Rand? Maybe he had some life epiphany and marked it by shaving? He figures in Andor beards are more of a lower-class thing, unlike in Saldaea, and he wanted to fit in with the upper echlon? There are thousands of pretty decent plot reasons.

[RandA lThor]

I agree that this is not a valid reason, buy I think he said that he shaved because he was hot.

[fyodor]

Why not just show up as a male wilder, already experienced with channeling? What benefit does the name Taim bring?

 

Rand is correctly suspicious that the Forsaken would to try to infiltrate his channeler gathering (thus his warning to Taim that a student who learns too fast might be a forsaken). Mazrim Taim is at this point the only publicly known channeler and additionally one who is known to be extremely powerful.

 

Rand is gathering channelers. By sending someone in as Taim they can get him into a position of authority relatively close to Rand. Remember, when Taim shows up he is expecting to be Rand's lieutenant/ally/mentor, and is annoyed that he'll have to teach a bunch of yokels.

 

The only other option is to kill and replace someone who is close to Rand. Replacing a known person with existing relationships is very difficult, which is why Mesaana replaces an Aes Sedai who is a loner.

 

 

 

And if you wanted to get accepted as Taim, why not just wear a Taim Illusion? Why use a poor Illusion and then have to use the knowledge you gained from interrogating Taim to do the job, when if you showed up as anyone but Taim there would be no-one to say you were not who you said you were?

 

We're told in this very same book that it takes an unusually high level of skill to make an illusion that can withstand touch. Thus there are limitations on how closely it can match while at the same time being sustainable.

[yourcheesehat]

pretty sure that taim is a false dragon that was encouraged by either the black ajah, darkfriends or he was a darkfriend who could channel.

he was told to wreak havoc, was captured, was released by df aes sedai then came to answer rands amnesty.

at first i thought it may have been a df plan to sow distrust of taim in rand but there is obviously something going on in the bt by the end of tom.

i have doubts that he is one of the forsaken. serious doubts.

he wouldn't be the first df to assume he/she has, or will get a lot of power.

take shiane(?) for example, she thought she was untouchable and had control over a couple of members of the ba given to her by Moridin.

also remember that dashiva(? think it was dashiva, one of the ashaman at the cleansing) was o'ran'gar. a member of the forsaken posing as an ashaman.

Taim has probably been taught and promised a lot and i think that he is gunning for a place in the chosen..

 

(sry for grammar/spelling bit drunk)