Who is likely to betray the Shadow in AMoL?

[Finnssss22]

Also, Lanfear seems like the one with the least reason now to serve the DO, she served for power, but now she is getting tortured with no power at all. This is a good indicator that she will join the light.

 

Turning against the DO in attempt to gain more personnel power or escape(assuming it isn't a trap for Rand) is not quite the same as joining the light. Her character flaws have been spelled out quite clearly in text and by the author. She might make a play to save her own skin in some manner, but there is little to no evidence that she would return to the light. I

 

 

Yep, in fact, if we listen to Verin's words on the subject, it's that lust for power and especially selfishness that the DO looks for in his servants.

At the end of the day though, who does the DO trust the most....Moridin, the one person who actually knows what happens if the DO wins, complete and utter destruction of everything.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Also, Lanfear seems like the one with the least reason now to serve the DO, she served for power, but now she is getting tortured with no power at all. This is a good indicator that she will join the light.

 

Turning against the DO in attempt to gain more personnel power or escape(assuming it isn't a trap for Rand) is not quite the same as joining the light. Her character flaws have been spelled out quite clearly in text and by the author. She might make a play to save her own skin in some manner, but there is little to no evidence that she would return to the light. I

 

Returning to the light is her only chance to save her own skin. She is being tortured by Moridin, she's aware that she is on the DO's shitlist and she knows that as long as she is bound to the DO there can be no salvation for her. Furthermore she knows that Rand has the ability to cut her off from the DO. Obviously it's not as if her personality would change like that, but just like Asmodean she is hanging over the cliff and her only hope is that the grass she's clinging to doesn't rip.

[Edynol]

I agree with BBM and Suttree(Wait what? Agree with with Suttree? The taint must be back. XD lol). Betray the shadow doesn't necessarily mean turning to the light. If aliens betray demons and help destroy the forces of hell, then turn around and kill/enslave all the humans themselves, they aren't exactly fighting for the "Light". It's like the lesser of two evils kinda thing. The Forsaken aren't as evil as the DO and so may turn on him, but they are still evil non-the-less.

 

I also have a question, Since Moggy and Cyn(I think) are mind-trapped, will they be able to betray Mori and the DO even if they wanted to?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, I am not sure.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 11th, 2000

Barnes and Noble Chat (Verbatim)

 

DOUG CARLSON FROM URBANA, IL

Is there any way to escape a Mindtrap other than death?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

To be released, you can be released from it

.

 

Now that doesn't necessarily mean that there are no other ways, but it seems a pretty fool-proof system, I wouldn't know how you would be able to. Perhaps Rand knows more. And if Moridin dies, what happens to the Mindtrapped people? DO they die as well? I forget, but I would assume that if it is going to happen with Lanfear or Moggy, there will be some way around it, or Nynaeve might find a way, she likes healing things.

 

And yeah, since the thread is "who will betray the Shadow?" it does not mean they have to turn back to the Light. Any of the Forsaken would betray the Shadow, only Moridin can handle the truth of the DO's plans, never mind any other reasons they have for betraying him. I could even see 2-3 or more turn against the DO when the end is near.

[Edynol]

What exactly is a mind trap anyways? I know what it does, talking about the trap itself physically. Is it like a box or container of some sort and who ever holds it controls those trapped? If so, maybe Rand or someone can get a hold of it somehow and control Cyn and Moggy or set them free to gain their help.

[FarShainMael]

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/mindtrap.html

[Barid Bel Medar]

The mindtrap or cour'souvra is a small crystal and wire construct. When contacted with the blood and saliva of a person who can channel and activated in the Pit of Doom it gives the holder of the mindtrap complete control of the unlucky person. If the mindtrap is crushed, the person becomes a mindless puppet of the holder

 

I am not sure if that includes anyone holding the mindtrap, or if "holding" means the one who initiated it.

 

If the former, someone could just snatch it up and set them free no problems.

 

If the latter, there may possibly be a way to disarm it.

 

Or the mindtrap is destroyed, and Nynaeve manages some sweet healing miracle.

 

Edit: Gah! beaten to it.

[Edynol]

Ahhh okay. Thanks. So I am thinking it is whoever is physically holding it who controls those trapped. I can really see this coming into play during TG.

[Suttree]

Returning to the light is her only chance to save her own skin. She is being tortured by Moridin, she's aware that she is on the DO's shitlist and she knows that as long as she is bound to the DO there can be no salvation for her.

 

That is a fairly narrow minded way of looking at the situation and most see the situation is not nealry as black and white as you make out. Shrug, I'll look forward to reading about it in AMoL then since you are so certain...and discussing it with you after of course!

[RandA lThor]

Yet we do know that she wanted power. Now she has the exact opposite of that with the DO and would love to gain atleast something back. That is why she might turn.

[Suttree]

Yet we do know that she wanted power. Now she has the exact opposite of that with the DO and would love to gain atleast something back. That is why she might turn.

 

The point being "betraying the shadow" is not necesarily the same as "turning back to the light". Especially in Lanfear's case.

 

RJ

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore—I have heard the theory advanced—of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

Also if the whole thing is a trap Moridin has set up(why do a few posters seem so totally convinced that is not the case?), RJ told us the motive. Not sure why people see Zen Rand and dismiss the fact that he is still linked.

 

And Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken.

 

Last chance?

[RandA lThor]

This is true, but as you said, she wanted the power instead of Rand. However, her power is nothing right now. Normal person is at 0, she is in the negative numbers right now. I think she would do anything to just get back to 0. Also, after a long time with Aes Sedai under control, she might get a little bit of power back. However, she won't be able to drill into the DO's prison this time, neither will she want to, because she doesn't like him any more. Now, she will use this power for something else. if it is something bad, she will be stopped. if not, she will finally be good.

[Sephie913]

While we're on the topic of Cyndene, who here thinks that poor little Mierin is a ploy, that Rand knows it's a ploy, and that he's gonna lay the smack down on whoever set the trap?

 

I could honestly see Graendal turning against DO, all jokes aside. I think she's been a bomb with a cheap cell-phone detonator, and she's gone off at the wrong time too many times, and that SH is gonna give her the last little nudge over the side. (actually, I think he's gonna do bad stuff to her, then mind-trap her, which I believe is permanant, or all-but.)

[RandA lThor]

I don't think it is a ploy. She has been trapped by the cour'souvra and is completely under Moridin's control. Even if Moridin made that trap, I think Lanfear really wants to escape.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Returning to the light is her only chance to save her own skin. She is being tortured by Moridin, she's aware that she is on the DO's shitlist and she knows that as long as she is bound to the DO there can be no salvation for her.

 

That is a fairly narrow minded way of looking at the situation and most see the situation is not nealry as black and white as you make out. Shrug, I'll look forward to reading about it in AMoL then since you are so certain...and discussing it with you after of course!

 

Where the DO is concerned things are black and white. He isn't just called Dark One for the fun of it.XD

But really what's so narrowminded about my opinion? If Lanfears plea for help was sincere, I'd say she must be aware that even if the DO wins her lot won't improve. So isn't betraying the DO her only chance?

 

By the way betraying the DO and returning to the light are synonymous to me. All necessary to return to the light is to swear off from the shadow. There is no oath to be good or anything else required.

People can be pretty "evil" and still walk in the light from what I see. Rapists, murderers and so on all still walk in the light unless they swear to the DO. Same would be Lanfear I'd say.

[Edynol]

So would you say Fain walks in the Light? And rather the DO only sees in black and white is irrelevant. Many people see in black and white, but that doesn't mean the gray area doesn't exist. lol. Going against the shadow doesn't mean you walk in the light. Call it walking in the Shade. You got walking in the dark, where there is no light, walking in the light, where there is no dark, and walking in the shade, where you can see the light and dark, but aren't really walking in either.

 

Remember walking in the light is an ideology that has to do with doing the right thing in all aspects of your life as you see it for the greater good. Your outlook on it is similar to the Children of Light's, either you walk in the light, or you're a darkfriend. Nothing in between. Fain is the prime example of this. He is against the DO, wholeheartedly, which is good. But he wants to kill the champion of the Light as well, which makes him evil.

[RandA lThor]

Fain just wants to go psycho and want to kill everyone. He really thinks that everyone in the world is terrible and wants them all dead.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think he is talking about on a larger scale. Which I don't disagree with.

 

The Shadow is not evil, nor do I think the DO is evil. It is evil on a human level, because killing humans is evil to humans, and exterminating the Pattern, existence itself, would inherently be bad on people. Those who follow the Shadow are evil without a doubt, but not the Shadow itself.

 

But killing millions of ants, like exterminating Termites and cockroaches is fine for humans, we are not "evil" because of it.

The same goes for the DO. It is not human, it is a God. Humans are of no consequence. They are the ants and cockroaches.

 

The DO is outside of the Pattern. The destruction of the Pattern does not mean the end of existence for the DO. There is evidence that there are many more patterns. Not to mention the Parallel worlds. Or entirely separate Wheels of Time as well.

 

It is like the destruction of Earth in a galaxy which hosts millions of other planets. Without going into what could sustain life and such, one planet would not make much difference to a supreme being.

 

To humans, of course, it is not a good idea. It would literally be the worst thing, the subject of many stories. "The End of the World".

 

If the Shadow is the DO, is the Creator then Light?

This is where the differences occur.

What is the Light? A religion based on morality?

Or is it the reverence of the Creator?

 

The Creator is not a moral being. The Creator does not interfere, it does not care for humanity. It created humanity, and the Pattern. But creation itself is not a virtue.

 

So, but this definition, the Light is the Creator, the Shadow is the DO. To follow the Creator, one only needs to oppose the DO. No matter how evil you are, if you oppose the destruction of the Pattern and the Wheel, you would be of the Creator's Light.

 

If we choose to think of it as a moral code or religion, then of course the answer is different.

[Edynol]

Then what would you call someone like Lanfear, who wanted to destroy them both and become the all powerful ruler of everything? Not saying it's even possible, but she thought it was. Those who are against both, or totally nuetral and don't care about niether, are in the gray. No matter what extreme you go to, there is always a gray area. In fact, I'll go as far to say there is no black or white area, that everying is just shades of gray. Black is the darker shade, white is the lighter shade. Which is actually true, if ya think about it.

[RandA lThor]

I generally agree with you on this idea, but there are two exceptions in the Wheel of Time world, and you probably already know what I am going to say right now. The Dark One is the literal almost god-like representation of evil and is pure black. The Creator on the other hand, though he seems like someone who is on both sides, is a pure white. Everything he does is to balance, which is the right thing to do.

[Edynol]

But look at it this way. The creater doesn't do anything, he just creats and leaves his creation to do whatever, not really caring about them. If he did, he would take at least a semi active role in things.

 

But why lable the DO as black? He could just be a simple deity who wants to be left alon with peace and quiet, but this mean ol' creator keep throwing all these things at him and disturbing his peace and relaxation, taunting the poor ol Dark One and not leaving him alone. The Creator is nothing more than a big bully and the Dark One is just defending himself the best way he knows how. The Creator is the evil pitch black one, not Shai'tan.

 

Now that is not how I see it, but it is a logical stance. Everything is gray.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Black is not inherently evil. Nor is White, good. It is human perception. The Creator has done good by human standards, because they exist. But who said human existence = good? It could well be bad. If the Pattern is not destroyed eventually, it may be that it screws up the universal balance.

 

I agree with Edynol here. There is no good and evil here. It is simply nature, shades of grey.

 

Having said that, there are the different types of grey. the "DO" grey, and the "Light-side" grey.

 

On a human level, and in regards to the story, yes Light =Good. Since we want Rand and co. to live happy.

 

On a cosmic or universal level, Light =against the destruction of the Pattern.

[Edynol]

Yeah exactly. Everything is different shades of gray. I'm rooting for the light side myself. :)

[Barid Bel Medar]

So, with that established, Lanfear is not likely to turn back to the "Light" as Rand and co. see it.

 

I suppose it is possible, but all evidence points to her staying selfish and such.

 

People can be changed, given the right circumstances, Semirhage has proven that point. It is not impossible for Lanfear to have a change of heart, and realise her mistakes.

 

However, until this moment, which is dubious in sincerity, there is no evidence to suggest so, and everything against.

[b3arz3rg3r]

So would you say Fain walks in the Light? And rather the DO only sees in black and white is irrelevant. Many people see in black and white, but that doesn't mean the gray area doesn't exist. lol. Going against the shadow doesn't mean you walk in the light. Call it walking in the Shade. You got walking in the dark, where there is no light, walking in the light, where there is no dark, and walking in the shade, where you can see the light and dark, but aren't really walking in either.

 

Fain is a tricky one. But I wouldn't call him gray, but a different shade of black if there was one such. Afterall even if he has betrayed the DO he still carries the touch of the DO within him.

 

Remember walking in the light is an ideology that has to do with doing the right thing in all aspects of your life as you see it for the greater good. Your outlook on it is similar to the Children of Light's, either you walk in the light, or you're a darkfriend. Nothing in between. Fain is the prime example of this. He is against the DO, wholeheartedly, which is good. But he wants to kill the champion of the Light as well, which makes him evil.

 

Unlike the children I don't equate Light with good. Afterall the Pattern isn't good and the goal of the DO is to unmake the Pattern while the Light side strives to preserve it.