Alanna bonding Rand

[Suttree]

Yes. Sammael refers to men being immune to compulsion in LOC 6.

 

Ahh thanks. There goes my theory that Warder Obedience is strictly a function of willpower. Guess it is both.

 

Yeah the advantage def goes to male channelers in this instance. Ashaman can compel with a thought no weave required and the strength of the woman doesn't come into play. That "extra bit" was a big discovery.

[roocifer]

There is a conversation between Tarna, Pevara, and Tsutama the head of the Reds (I think it's in KoD) where they bring to Tsutama the proposition of Reds bonding Asha'man.

When discussing this they talk about modifying the bond so they can control the Asha'man.

They also mention that some sisters modify the normal warder bond so as to give them more control.

Because of this, I got the impression that the typical warder bond doesn't lend an AS very much control over her warder(s).

To actually have control you have to add things to the bond, and I got the impression this was not normally done by most sisters.

[Vardar]

There is a conversation between Tarna, Pevara, and Tsutama the head of the Reds (I think it's in KoD) where they bring to Tsutama the proposition of Reds bonding Asha'man.

When discussing this they talk about modifying the bond so they can control the Asha'man.

They also mention that some sisters modify the normal warder bond so as to give them more control.

Because of this, I got the impression that the typical warder bond doesn't lend an AS very much control over her warder(s).

To actually have control you have to add things to the bond, and I got the impression this was not normally done by most sisters.

 

 

There's another quote about this too, apparently AS add spirit (After he's bonded) to compel men, the men's bond doesn't need active channeling, it just occurs naturally.

[roocifer]

Also, I have heard discussion in a lot of threads about AS releasing Warders from their bonds.

A lot of people ask why Rand didn't just make Alanna do this.

I have read through the entire series multiple times and don't actually remember anyone ever saying warders can be released from their bonds.

I remember multiple times that transferring the bond from one AS to another was mentioned.

Can anyone find a direct quote referring to an AS being able to release her Warder without transferring the bond to someone else?

[Clouded]

From the Interview Database.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 20th, 2004

 

TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim)

WEEK 13 QUESTION

 

Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on thebond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

 

It has also been used to get rid of a Warder who proved to be unsuitable in some way, such as a man who is discovered to be a thief or who takes reckless chances, a fighter of duels who won't stop without the bond being used to force him. No sister is going to want a Warder who will risk getting himself killed, with all the attendant results to her, for no very good reason.

 

Although use of the bond in that way (controlling) was not unknown in the past, it came to be regarded as a form of Compulsion to use it so except in the slightest forms. Besides, using the bond to control a Warder all the time is a lot of work. An Aes Sedai wants somebody who can watch her back and keep it safe, not somebody she has to work on all the time. (Which is one of the reasons Aes Sedai stopped bonding men against their will. Not ethical concerns or ethical growth, I'm afraid; it was just not very practical really.) Better simply to release the fellow who can't measure up and find another who will.

 

By the by, releasing a Warder except for cause (the Aes Sedai's imminent death, his own unsuitability) or because he has asked for release is something that JUST IS NOT DONE! It would gain the sister considerable opprobrium from other sisters. A sister certainly would be looked at askance if she released a Warder who was dying, for example, just to avoid the effects on her of his death. When an Aes Sedai bonds a Warder, she is expected to buy in for the full ride. For that matter, releasing him for unsuitability is considered to reflect on the sister's judgment. She should have known better about him from the start.

 

Edit: Sweet Jesus, fixed the formatting

Edited August 14, 2012 by Clouded

[Vardar]

Also, I have heard discussion in a lot of threads about AS releasing Warders from their bonds.

A lot of people ask why Rand didn't just make Alanna do this.

I have read through the entire series multiple times and don't actually remember anyone ever saying warders can be released from their bonds.

I remember multiple times that transferring the bond from one AS to another was mentioned.

Can anyone find a direct quote referring to an AS being able to release her Warder without transferring the bond to someone else?

 

Moriane brings it up. Pretty sure in New Spring too, but I know in book 2, when she tells Lan about her bond transferring.

 

Lan also tells Ny that when she shows him the letter from the Seat. He says you can make Moriane release me with this. Umm. Book 3, before they leave for Tanchinco (I just finished that section).

[roocifer]

Thanks Clouded & Vardamus :)

[FarShainMael]

Also, I have heard discussion in a lot of threads about AS releasing Warders from their bonds.

A lot of people ask why Rand didn't just make Alanna do this.

I have read through the entire series multiple times and don't actually remember anyone ever saying warders can be released from their bonds.

I remember multiple times that transferring the bond from one AS to another was mentioned.

Can anyone find a direct quote referring to an AS being able to release her Warder without transferring the bond to someone else?

 

"Warders don't run off often, boy. Most Aes Sedai will free a man who really wants to go - most will..."

 

It doesn't say, but I don't think a bond would be transferred under those conditions, not if the Warder really wants to go.

[Suttree]

There is a conversation between Tarna, Pevara, and Tsutama the head of the Reds (I think it's in KoD) where they bring to Tsutama the proposition of Reds bonding Asha'man.

When discussing this they talk about modifying the bond so they can control the Asha'man.

They also mention that some sisters modify the normal warder bond so as to give them more control.

Because of this, I got the impression that the typical warder bond doesn't lend an AS very much control over her warder(s).

To actually have control you have to add things to the bond, and I got the impression this was not normally done by most sisters.

 

They were discussing the modification in theory only, it's not something that has been done or they have practice with. Per RJ the Ashaman experimented with their wives and know far more about bonding than AS. Vards has the right of it that the AS need to channel spirit.

[Vardar]

Thanks Clouded & Vardamus :)

 

You're welcome. The real thanks goes to people like Terez, Sutt, Ares and Lucks who push the quotes all the time and I end up seeing them constantly. (Among others). Glad to help some.

[jwood01]

The scene where Alanna bonds Rand always angers me. I think Rand didn't lay the smack down for a couple reasons: 1) they were women; 2) He was angry but LTT was more baffled and chocked. Rand did take out his anger on the girls from the Two Rivers and scared the heck out of them.

 

The beauty of the bond is that Rand feels how Alanna is feeling through the bond. It is mentioned several times that he knows she's been crying.

[Maleshub]

The scene where Alanna bonds Rand always angers me. I think Rand didn't lay the smack down for a couple reasons: 1) they were women; 2) He was angry but LTT was more baffled and chocked. Rand did take out his anger on the girls from the Two Rivers and scared the heck out of them.

 

The beauty of the bond is that Rand feels how Alanna is feeling through the bond. It is mentioned several times that he knows she's been crying.

 

Several points to consider:

- If Alanna is harmed or killed, Rand feels the pain and will be taken with a "Death rage" if she dies.

- Rand gets the warder bond gifts as a result of the bond. His senses and stamina are enhanced, which explains why he can do so much without sufficient rest.

- It is difficult for Rand to hurt women, Alanna included.

- Rand needs Alanna or the Pattern would not have woven her to do such a thing to Rand. But this is just speculation.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Theodril

[Vardar]

The scene where Alanna bonds Rand always angers me. I think Rand didn't lay the smack down for a couple reasons: 1) they were women; 2) He was angry but LTT was more baffled and chocked. Rand did take out his anger on the girls from the Two Rivers and scared the heck out of them.

 

The beauty of the bond is that Rand feels how Alanna is feeling through the bond. It is mentioned several times that he knows she's been crying.

 

Several points to consider:

- If Alanna is harmed or killed, Rand feels the pain and will be taken with a "Death rage" if she dies.

- Rand gets the warder bond gifts as a result of the bond. His senses and stamina are enhanced, which explains why he can do so much without sufficient rest.

- It is difficult for Rand to hurt women, Alanna included.

- Rand needs Alanna or the Pattern would not have woven her to do such a thing to Rand. But this is just speculation.

 

You know, we don't know if Male channelers get a death rage if they're bonded. I wonder if we'll find out.

 

It was done for the pattern, it helped him survive the kidnapping plot.

[Pinzarn]

The scene where Alanna bonds Rand always angers me. I think Rand didn't lay the smack down for a couple reasons: 1) they were women; 2) He was angry but LTT was more baffled and chocked. Rand did take out his anger on the girls from the Two Rivers and scared the heck out of them.

 

The beauty of the bond is that Rand feels how Alanna is feeling through the bond. It is mentioned several times that he knows she's been crying.

 

Several points to consider:

- If Alanna is harmed or killed, Rand feels the pain and will be taken with a "Death rage" if she dies.

- Rand gets the warder bond gifts as a result of the bond. His senses and stamina are enhanced, which explains why he can do so much without sufficient rest.

- It is difficult for Rand to hurt women, Alanna included.

- Rand needs Alanna or the Pattern would not have woven her to do such a thing to Rand. But this is just speculation.

 

You know, we don't know if Male channelers get a death rage if they're bonded. I wonder if we'll find out.

 

It was done for the pattern, it helped him survive the kidnapping plot.

 

Also, since Rand has four bond holders, does losing 25% of them only mean a "mildly irritated" rage instead of a death rage?

[Vardar]

The scene where Alanna bonds Rand always angers me. I think Rand didn't lay the smack down for a couple reasons: 1) they were women; 2) He was angry but LTT was more baffled and chocked. Rand did take out his anger on the girls from the Two Rivers and scared the heck out of them.

 

The beauty of the bond is that Rand feels how Alanna is feeling through the bond. It is mentioned several times that he knows she's been crying.

 

Several points to consider:

- If Alanna is harmed or killed, Rand feels the pain and will be taken with a "Death rage" if she dies.

- Rand gets the warder bond gifts as a result of the bond. His senses and stamina are enhanced, which explains why he can do so much without sufficient rest.

- It is difficult for Rand to hurt women, Alanna included.

- Rand needs Alanna or the Pattern would not have woven her to do such a thing to Rand. But this is just speculation.

 

You know, we don't know if Male channelers get a death rage if they're bonded. I wonder if we'll find out.

 

It was done for the pattern, it helped him survive the kidnapping plot.

 

Also, since Rand has four bond holders, does losing 25% of them only mean a "mildly irritated" rage instead of a death rage?

 

Lol. So not quite death rage, but maybe slap someone silly rage?

[Mario Cole]

A tired vaguely violated feeling, kinda like after you do taxes.

[Maleshub]

Also, since Rand has four bond holders, does losing 25% of them only mean a "mildly irritated" rage instead of a death rage?

 

Lol. So not quite death rage, but maybe slap someone silly rage?

 

Alanna was the first Aes Sedai to bond him. The other three bonds (actually one weave split among the three women and then placed on Rand) came quite a few months after the Alanna bond. So, Rand would have been hit with the full effect of losing the bond if he tried anything silly with Alanna right after the bonding. Whether channelers suffer less than non-channelers, I do not know.

 

But what preceded all the female bonds was the bond to Moridin

Edited August 16, 2012 by Theodril

[bustycops1987]

Well Rand is steadfastly against harming women, more than he has to anyways, which more than accounts for why he wouldn't just go crazy with violence after Alanna's bonding. Also bonding didn't exist in the Age of Legends so even Lews Therin was shocked and surprised by it, which is sort of important since the Lews Therin voice in Rands head was while crazy pretty much a driving force for all of Rands channeling violence. There are plenty of times Rand ignores his inane requests for violence/murder, but I don't remember Rand ever being angry or upset unless the Lews Therin voice was too.

Edited August 16, 2012 by bustycops1987

[thisguy]

One of the oaths an Aes Sedai takes is to not use the OP as a weapon unless in defense or against the shadow. If bonding as Alanna did is akin to psychic rape, didn't she violate that oath?

[Barid Bel Medar]

One of the oaths an Aes Sedai takes is to not use the OP as a weapon unless in defense or against the shadow. If bonding as Alanna did is akin to psychic rape, didn't she violate that oath?

 

Basically, not a weapon. It didn't hurt him, physically.

 

It was unpleasant, but it was essentially a harmless act. The harm comes as a result of this, not the actual weave itself.

 

Plus, it is easy to convince yourself that something isn't a weapon. Aes Sedai can switch novices with weaves of Air, which is a type of violence, however, because it isn't intended to be used as a weapon, it's all good.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Vardar]

One of the oaths an Aes Sedai takes is to not use the OP as a weapon unless in defense or against the shadow. If bonding as Alanna did is akin to psychic rape, didn't she violate that oath?

 

Basically, not a weapon. It didn't hurt him.

Great example of dancing around the oaths.

 

It didn't physically hurt him, so she was allowed to do it. Good stuff.

[Barid Bel Medar]

One of the oaths an Aes Sedai takes is to not use the OP as a weapon unless in defense or against the shadow. If bonding as Alanna did is akin to psychic rape, didn't she violate that oath?

 

Basically, not a weapon. It didn't hurt him.

Great example of dancing around the oaths.

 

It didn't physically hurt him, so she was allowed to do it. Good stuff.

 

Yeah, pretty much.

 

Just like the Lying oath, it doesn't really make them speak truth, just not able to speak an outright lie.

 

We have seen how well that works.

[thisguy]

One of the oaths an Aes Sedai takes is to not use the OP as a weapon unless in defense or against the shadow. If bonding as Alanna did is akin to psychic rape, didn't she violate that oath?

 

Basically, not a weapon. It didn't hurt him.

Great example of dancing around the oaths.

 

It didn't physically hurt him, so she was allowed to do it. Good stuff.

Compulsion doesn't physically hurt either but it would seem to violate the oaths.

[Barid Bel Medar]

One of the oaths an Aes Sedai takes is to not use the OP as a weapon unless in defense or against the shadow. If bonding as Alanna did is akin to psychic rape, didn't she violate that oath?

 

Basically, not a weapon. It didn't hurt him.

Great example of dancing around the oaths.

 

It didn't physically hurt him, so she was allowed to do it. Good stuff.

Compulsion doesn't physically hurt either but it would seem to violate the oaths.

 

Not really, it is just forbidden.

 

 

And again, it depends on the persons view.

 

If they thought they were going to use compulsion to purposely harm someone, then it would be seen as a weapon. However, if they use it and convince themselves it is something good, its all good.

 

Like the weaves of air. You can hit someone, like Elaida did, totally mess someone up, if you convince yourself it is not used as a weapon.

 

Similar thing here, Alanna convinced herself it was not a bad thing, nor was it used to harm Rand.

 

Whether or not it does harm is far beside the point.

Edited August 16, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[thisguy]

I wonder if RJ has said anything about it. You don't need to light somebody on fire with the power if you can control their mind. Seems like a weapon to me.