How does everyone think the DO will be defeated?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I kind of doubt Justice has any special role to play in the Last Battle. It's just a sword. Nothing special about it aside from the fact that it was forged with the OP. Yes, it once belonged to Hawkwing, but that doesn't make it any better or worse than Lan's sword or Tam's old one.

 

Well, it kinda is better than Tam's old sword, since it is all melted and broken now.

 

But seriously, I wouldn't be so sure.

 

We cannot actually be sure, do we know that Justice is just another power-wrought blade?

 

And why did Hawkwing have a Dragon on it?

 

Ishamael messed with Hawkwing, so he claims, and evidence points to Ishamael being his advisor at one point.

 

Rand certainly thinks it is important enough to carry around all the time. It apparently represents "the Past", while Callandor, "the future". Which is not just talking about Justice being old, because Callandor is much, much older. (Or, is there something we don't know about Justice?)

 

Also, refer to comment in my last post about Justice.

 

I am not saying that Justice will slay the DO, and I am not even saying it WILL play a huge role, but it certainly can't be dismissed. There is a lot of mystery surrounding it and possibilities.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I kind of doubt Justice has any special role to play in the Last Battle. It's just a sword. Nothing special about it aside from the fact that it was forged with the OP. Yes, it once belonged to Hawkwing, but that doesn't make it any better or worse than Lan's sword or Tam's old one.

 

Well, it kinda is better than Tam's old sword, since it is all melted and broken now.

 

But seriously, I wouldn't be so sure.

 

We cannot actually be sure, do we know that Justice is just another power-wrought blade?

 

And why did Hawkwing have a Dragon on it?

 

From the way Rand took apart Laman's sword the only thing which was power-wrought is the blade itself. Everything else, grip, wristguard etc. has been replaced- perhaps even several times- over the millenia. Do we even know that the one who put the dragon on the sword wasn't Rand himself?

 

Ishamael messed with Hawkwing, so he claims, and evidence points to Ishamael being his advisor at one point.

 

Rand certainly thinks it is important enough to carry around all the time. It apparently represents "the Past", while Callandor, "the future". Which is not just talking about Justice being old, because Callandor is much, much older. (Or, is there something we don't know about Justice?)

 

Rand carries it with him mostly because he likes swords I'd say. First he had Tam's, then he got Laman's and now he has Hawking's. He propably likes the feel of a real sword better than of one made with the OP. Though part of it may be that he's prepared for an opportunity where he can't use the OP, like in a Stedding for example. Call it whim, call it nostalgia or whatever, it's that sort of feeling which makes him carry the sword and not because he thinks Hawkwing's sword will actually be necessary.

 

Also, refer to comment in my last post about Justice.

 

I am not saying that Justice will slay the DO, and I am not even saying it WILL play a huge role, but it certainly can't be dismissed. There is a lot of mystery surrounding it and possibilities.

 

You exaggerate. What mystery and what sorts of possibilities surround the sword? It's just a sword albeit a sharp one and one pretty much unbreakable. Moiraine told us either in TGH or in TDR that a sword won't kill the DO. A sword couldn't even kill Ishamael. The biggest use I can see Rand getting out of it is to make it part of a bargain with the Seanchan. They would value the sword far more than anyone else.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Those are pretty weak excuses. My point still stands. We have no idea of the capabilities of Justice.

 

Rand didn't put the Dragons on Justice. IIRC, he thinks about this in tGS, that it was fitting, no indication that he put it on. And I doubt he would mess with Hawkwing's sword.

 

 

Rand wouldn't take Justice to Shayol Ghul for a bit of fun. Have a look at the cover art. He already has Callandor, which can be used as a sword well enough.

 

 

I agree that it most likely will be used in the Seanchan negotiations, and that it will be one of the main purposes. And indeed it could be that this is the only purpose.

 

I am not saying it is a sa'angreal, or it will actually Seal the DO away, but there is a fair bit of evidence to suggest more than just your average P-W blade, it warrants the attention.

[FarShainMael]

It may be as simple as Fortuona recognising it as Hawkwing's sword. Hawkwing is a pretty important figure to the Seanchan. It may help Rand establish the Dragon's Peace.

 

Edit: bbm ninja'd me

[Terez]

We know that Justice is as old as Callandor, within 10 years, because both would have been made during the War of Power.

[Terez]

I think Terez is talking about a pretty big event in FoH as Foreshadowing for how Rand will be resurrected.

 

The quote you changed has been fulfilled, FYI, when they bonded him. Not that that changes anything in regards to your theory.

 

I have actually argued before that the bond would somehow survive Rand's death. I think I got in a flamewar with someone over that one, but I forget who. I wasn't even trying to say I thought it was likely; just that I thought it was possible (I throw out a lot of theories like that).

 

I've also argued that the re-bonding after he's ripped out would have something to do with Aviendha's babies (through Elayne's pregnancy), but with the Boann/Dagda thing I'm starting to think that Elayne will somehow speed up her pregnancy by going to Tel'aran'rhiod. In the flesh? I dunno how it works; for Birgitte and the heroes, time is fluid.

 

One thought I had is that maybe Lanfear would manage to trap Elayne in some kind of loop-thing in Tel'aran'rhiod as part of preventing the Team from resurrecting Rand, and that this is how her pregnancy is sped up. My familiarity with this legend is new; I haven't had time to make sense of it yet. But now that we have this to go on, the 'once for birth' thing and the Calian and Shivan age-heralding thing seem a bit much to ignore.

 

For One-Eyed Fool, there are a few very strong foreshadowings that Rand will be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. There are four blatant foreshadowings that I know of concerning the method of Rand's resurrection, including one that I had in my sig but then had to remove:

 

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

 

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be...."

 

"...I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can."

 

Another one is when Min says that if he dies just to spite her she will follow him and bring him back. Another one is when Elayne thinks (in the context of Birgitte moping about Gaidal) that she could not imagine what she would do if Rand died. But the best one is this one:

 

Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.

 

There are a few subtle things going on here in the foreshadowing. For one, the chapter name, "To Boannda" (the name of the town where they dropped off the refugees, save the three strays they took to Salidar), seems random, but there are clues that it is not. For one, Birgitte is paralleled in Birgit, who is from the same legends as Boann. Also, Moghedien's alias Marigan parallels Morrigan, from the same legends. Marigan is a Forsaken posing as a healer. Boann also has a name parallel: Semirhage's real name was Nemene Damendar Boann. The Dagda is paralleled in Dagdara, the best Yellow in Salidar, and also Black Ajah. Ceridwen, also from the same legends, is paralleled as the healer they offered to summon for Selene at The Nine Rings in Tremonsien.

 

So, not two or even three but four characters with name parallels from the same mythology, all tied to both healing and evil, and all converging on a foreshadowing about how Nynaeve will 'heal' death, where the healer and healed are both present. Moghedien had just ripped Birgitte out a few chapters before. Add that to Elayne's babies (Elayne was also present in that scene), and the Foretelling from Nicola (also present), and the other foreshadowings I mentioned...I'd say the method of resurrection is as near iron-clad as you could ask for.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Those are pretty weak excuses. My point still stands. We have no idea of the capabilities of Justice.

 

Rand didn't put the Dragons on Justice. IIRC, he thinks about this in tGS, that it was fitting, no indication that he put it on. And I doubt he would mess with Hawkwing's sword.

 

 

Rand wouldn't take Justice to Shayol Ghul for a bit of fun. Have a look at the cover art. He already has Callandor, which can be used as a sword well enough.

 

 

I agree that it most likely will be used in the Seanchan negotiations, and that it will be one of the main purposes. And indeed it could be that this is the only purpose.

 

I am not saying it is a sa'angreal, or it will actually Seal the DO away, but there is a fair bit of evidence to suggest more than just your average P-W blade, it warrants the attention.

 

I'm not trying to make any excuses.

I won't bother trying to prove a negative. It is up to you to prove that there might be something special about Justice beyond it being a P-W blade. And your arguments should be something better than "but it's on the cover it has to be special.". Until you can give me a scene which hints that Justice is as special as you think it is. Yes, Justice could be something special, but so could Olver's game of Snakes and Foxes. For all we know it might be a ter'angreal, afterall nothing to the contrary was ever said or was there?

[OptimusPrime]

How will the Dark One be defeated? Here is my theory.

 

I think he can possess True Power users. Rand will go to the Pit with Alivia, Narishma and Nynaeve, taking Callandor and the Seals with them. Rand goes down into the Pit, breaks the Seals and draws on the True Power, tempting the Dark One to possess him. When possessed, he emerges from the Pit with fiery caverns in his eyes. Remember how Shaidar is a shadowy part of the Dark One BUT we saw the Dark One speak through Shaidar? This is the same thing, except this time the Dark One will be present in Rands body with him, instead of the Superfade, instead of what happened in TDR when Ishamael shrieked "Aid me!"

 

Narishma, Alivia and Nynaeve are linked with Callandor, Narishma holding the sword, Alivia in control of the weaves. They fight with the Power against the Dark One in human form-to win, all that needs to be done is for Callandor to touch the Rands body at the same time as Alivia channeling a severing weave that will cut the connection from the Dark One in Rand and the rest of the Dark One outside the Pattern. Remember how Shaidar wanted his connection to Shayol Ghul severed? Thats what we're talking about. Rand, possessed by the Dark One, is still aware, barely. He can see Narishma trying to strike him, but the Dark One is drawing from Rands swordsman skills, and is channeling a True Power blade to boot, which completely negates the one-hand limitation. Narishma doesnt stand a chance. Rand struggles to gain control of his body to give Narishma the opening he needs, but the Dark Ones will is a veritable mountain, and even Rand is no match.

 

Fain appears out of nowhere, jumps on Rand from behind and starts stabbing him. The Dark One is weakened by the tainted dagger, giving Rand momentary control; he grabs hold of Fain over his shoulders, Narishma lunges forward and plunges Callandor through the two men. The Dark One is weakened, losing the part of him that was in Rand (and there was a sizeable chunk; after all, this is an endgame moment for him too) and retreats away from the Bore, keeping his hands well away from the Pattern.

 

Now, in all this, Rand will likely have thought about Callandor possibly severing his Warder bonds. So just at the right moment, he moves a hairswidth, switches bodies with Moridin, and its actually MORIDIN and the Dark One in Rands body that takes Callandor. (And Fain of course)

 

I seem to remember RJ once saying he was putting a hook in the final epilogue. I think that not only will Rand survive, but it will turn out that Narishma didnt score a lethal hit on Rands body, which left Moridin in Rands broken body, with the severed chunk of the Dark One possibly, which would bring him full circle back round to EotW mark 2 where he has caverns in his eyes and (possibly) cant tell if he is himself or the Dark One, because in reality he is both much as Fain is Fain and the other dude(s). How poetic it would be, were Callandor to strike the wound in Rands side and for Moridin to be left with (afragment of) the Dark Ones voice in his head...

 

Aaand thats about it.

[The One-Eyed Fool]

Terez,

 

Thanks for explaining the Boann/Dagda links - its probably not the first time you've had to.

Your idea about the resurrection is pretty interesting. I mostly find it convincing just on the basis of its plausibility rather than the evidence you mention though. The Boann/Dagda myth is clearly being used, but I think you may be reading too much into Rand's comment about dreaming or Marigan's ignorance of the OP. The links I can see are: Dagda supposedly had resurrection abilities, they bewitched time so that 9 months passed for them in the space of a day outside to avoid people finding out about Boann's pregnancy, and Boann and Dagda's son was called a healer of souls. But I don't think I'd go from that to saying there's a clear indication of how Rand will be resurrected. I would prefer to see something from WOT prophecy for an event this momentous. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

I take it you're saying this line:

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

- Foretold by Nicola (LoC ch14)

implies he is actually dead, but continues to exist as a HotH in TAR. It could be. I still think Rand will have to confront the DO after he dies, rather than dying in the conflict, but that doesn't necessarily contradict using TAR - it would become the staging ground for the battle. But we've also seen Rand on some sort of spiritual plane before - that seems to be where he battled Ishamael in EotW because he saw his Mother there, and it seems to be where he met Lanfear in the last book. It also seems to be where he meets Moridin. I think that's more where the DO exists (not TAR) and that's where I think Rand will have to face him.

 

As for Rand's bond, its definitely unique and I wouldn't want to rule anything out with respect to that. That's exactly how I think he'll be able to go visit the lord of the grave and return. I expect I'd've been on your side in that discussion.

[Barid Bel Medar]

@ Terez, yeah, I have also wondered about the Bond. It would be bad for Elayne, Avi and Min all to be depressed over losing a Warder, not to mention annoying to read. I can see the bond surviving death somehow. It brings to mind another question, if the Bond is broken, and Rand comes back and is re-Bonded, would they still feel the depression?

Anyway, besides the point. It is an interesting point the Warder Bond, I expect it plays more of a role than just for a bit of a laugh and because they all love him.

 

 

@b3arz3rg3r I don't disagree with you precisely. I am not trying to "prove" anything. Instead I am just saying that the possibilities are there, since we have a lot of unanswered questions about Justice, there are no direct quotes that say "Justice is important because...." But there is enough to doubt that is simply a nice P-W blade. Sorry, excuse was the wrong word, I meant to say explanation. My bad.

[Terez]

Terez,

 

Thanks for explaining the Boann/Dagda links - its probably not the first time you've had to.

Your idea about the resurrection is pretty interesting. I mostly find it convincing just on the basis of its plausibility rather than the evidence you mention though. The Boann/Dagda myth is clearly being used, but I think you may be reading too much into Rand's comment about dreaming or Marigan's ignorance of the OP.

 

It's not her ignorance of the Power, though. She's Moghedien. It's clearly foreshadowing, for someone who has gotten the hang of how RJ's foreshadowing works, that one more than any of the rest because of the Boann/Dagda connection he tied into it so subtly.

 

I would prefer to see something from WOT prophecy for an event this momentous. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

You won't get something like this outlined blatantly in prophecy. Makes it too easy to figure out, hence the subtle foreshadowings.

 

I take it you're saying this line:

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

- Foretold by Nicola (LoC ch14)

implies he is actually dead, but continues to exist as a HotH in TAR.

 

I expect at that point he's already been ripped out and the three women are there to save him from death with the bond.

[decrepid dragon]

I just thought it would be some sought of secret attack from Callandor. Like its only purpose was to be the new seal/killer of the DO when it was created, the only problem is it didn't come with an instruction manual. And then Rand figures it out with Moiraine and Min's help from the notes Harid Fel left behind and whatever the snake and fox people told Moiraine. And then it either kills or seals the DO by virtue of what it is (sought of like a wood stake through the heart for a vampire). The hard part would be actually getting the stake there.

[salmidach]

Perrin has to find the Lost song and only the Ogier from the Seanchen know the song...

[b3arz3rg3r]

Perrin has to find the Lost song and only the Ogier from the Seanchen know the song...

 

I assume your reasoning is that he is the only one in the cast who we know can't sing so he can kill the DO with the horrible noise he makes.

[Elan Tedronai]

In order to understand what the hell is going on the moment you need to travel back to age of legends. Lanfear and beidomon sensed a power at shayol. A power they thought was good for all. Ofcourse we all know what hid behind it.

 

The DO extends his influence and although the hole lanfear made was small it was enough to create chaos and destruction.

 

LTT comes along. He thinks right. we have a hole. Let's patch it up. Like me and you would use a plaster for a wound. He wanted the women because they are more precise and saidar and saidin combination would strengthen that seal.

 

Women decline. we know the story. LTT used saidin alongside his buddies and lay seven seals using saidin. The problem here was no one expected that behind that little hole was thye dark one stickng his liltte pinky. Once saidin touched him, his backlash from being pushed back through the hole was enough to drive all men mad.

 

Fast forward 3000 years later. the seals are weak as the DO is heaving on it. Once rand smashes the seals we are back to square one. So now what

 

 

2 things.

 

The one power cannot fix or heal the rupture lanfear and beidomon created. That was LTT mistake. Humans cant match what the creator did. But here is the interesting thing. The one power will be used for one main purpose. Repelling and driving the dark one away from the bore.

 

That's where callandor comes from. Callandor is a bit special. 2 women and a man. The man in question will be al thor. The women will be in charge of the link. How callandor drives to repell shaitan is anyone guess. Particularly because any form of saidin or saidar touching him will likely result in another backlash. There has to be some sort of buffer or warding mechanism that traps the DO and render's him helpless.

 

 

You have to remember that the DO will be aware of what is going on the moment the seals are broken. He is the only thing keeping that hole open. For a hundred years he managed to stop the pattern closing off the rupture lanfear made.

 

So you and i have to ask. what is so powerful as to push him away from the bore or render him useless or trapped if you will?

 

In any case once that happens, the pattern no longer under the influence of the DO will start to heal and close off the wound and the prison is remade as a whole. No more patches. No more seals etc.

[RandA lThor]

But why would Callandor be the good choice, isn't it known that it has no buffer.

[Suttree]

Perrin has to find the Lost song and only the Ogier from the Seanchen know the song...

 

What makes you say that?

[FarShainMael]

About the 'three women holding Rand to life through the bond'.. what about Alanna?

[TristanWebb]

I never understood the Song theory, anyone care to explain it to me?

[Terez]

About the 'three women holding Rand to life through the bond'.. what about Alanna?

 

We established that that was not an actual prophecy but rather a theory from the notes of...dude. I forgot who.

[FarShainMael]

True. but in any situation involving Rand's Warder bonding, Alanna seems to have been forgotten. I'm wondering what her part will be.

[Terez]

She'll be able to tell people when Rand dies.

[FarShainMael]

So will the other three.

[Terez]

And Mat and Perrin as well. Which is very important, unless you think everyone is going to be hanging out in the same place when Rand dies.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Aiel Spit & Marb. Lights.

 

 

*dusts off hands