Update on Taim, intense revelation!!!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well at least we haven't got Rand going around saying YOLO.

 

Oh wait...

[Wolf505]

Moggy and Cyndane are not changed by the Mindtrap. They are still themselves. They don't become mindless sacks of evil.

 

Edit: will link to Mindtrapp: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Mindtrap http://encyclopaedia...s/mindtrap.html

 

Mezar's description is perfectly in line with what a warped personality would be.

 

Both Tarna and Mezar still have personalities, they just look cold and lifeless.

 

Which is what you would expect.

 

Remember this is not a scientific report on Mezar, it is what Androl thinks, of someone who used to be a friend.

 

He isn't going to think "Well, Mezar looks like somebody has twisted his personality somehow and he now has all of his good side supressed."

 

No, he is going to think "THAT'S NOT MEZAR. IT IS SOME CRAZY SOULLESS DEMON!"

 

Androl and Pevera are people who no nothing of the 13-13, and who used to be friends with these people. They do not have the luxury of theorizing about what said people would look like in what situation.

 

I think this is being over-thought. It is a perfectly normal reaction to have, considering the circumstances. Rand often thinks that Lan has a face like a rock. He doesn't really have a face with similar properties to stone, it is just he is a hard man.

 

But, I do agree, it is not CERTAIN, in the sense that nobody has said "This is so." However, it is a bit like saying Moridin is not Ishamael reborn.

 

I'm not so sure about the bolded part. Remember that the original info about 13x13 came from one of the Aes Sedai at Egwene's testing for Accepted (I think it was Sheriam) so it was hardly rare knowledge among Aes Sedai. Given how much Pevara hates Darkfriends I find it unlikely she would be unaware of the 13x13 process. Now, she may not have put two and two together yet, but I'm sure it will click at some point if that's actually what happened.

[yoniy0]

Sheriam was no mere AS. She's a Darkfriend as well. Also, she herself said:

This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you.

[Barid Bel Medar]

What yoniy0 said. Sheriam was Black, and it just so happens that Be'lal (and possibly Mesaana) had a plan to 13-13 Rand in the Stone of Tear a few months (or whatever) in the future.

 

Sheriam knew because she was Black, I would say is more than likely.

[TristanWebb]

I don't know, if she only knew it because she was black, she could of easily just lied and said it wasn't possible. It seems to be she was able to be overheard and thus had to tell the truth so she wouldn't reveal herself. It makes sense that it is something known to the tower via browns but not part of standard study. That Sheriam knew it from the Black is debatable, but it wouldn't of been mentioned at all of it wasn't able to be known by other means.

 

Or, it could just be that it needed to be told to world-build in which case my argument doesn't make sense at all.

[yoniy0]

Regardless, the point that Pevara would know of it rests on it being common knowledge in the Tower. If Sheriam feared being caught in a lie, then the other part of what she said, that not many know of it even in the Tower, must also be true. And if she didn't, she still said the truth on the thing itself; why would she lie regarding how widespread the knowledge was?

[Barid Bel Medar]

We have no evidence to suggest anyone other than Sheriam knows of the 13-13. Obviously others will know of it, like the 13 blacks sent to Tear, and probably Verin and a few others, but to suggest something is common knowledge, when we only have Sheriam who has actually said anything about it, is a stretch. And it supports the point that she was not lying about it not being common knowledge. Surely when TG is comming, there should be at least some speculation on Dreadlords, Black Ajah and turning people. We see not even a mention of the 13-13. Obviously this doesn't mean that they don't know of it, but it does make it more likely Sheriam was telling the truth.

 

It is something that has not happened in thousands of years, or if it has, it has not been actually seen by Aes Sedai. Pevera does not know of it, I am quite sure. As soon as she saw Tarna, she would have at least thought of the possibility. It's not like any Aes Sedai alive (apart form Black at this stage) has actually seen the effects of a 13-13, so even if it isn't, it would be something that comes to mind as an explanation. Sudden change in personality, to cold and kinda creepy evil. But Pevera has no idea what's going on, no more than Androl does.

[TristanWebb]

It wouldn't have to be -common- knowledge, but I agree that for plot reasons she probably won't realize it until the point that she sees the converting room.

 

I always had the impression it was a dread lord thing as well, but I think that came from my first reading of it when the whole male AS wasn't too clear to me, so probably worng.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think she will know what's actually happening, but sure enough when she sees 13 Dreadlords and 13 Myrddraal, she will realise that it is not the ideal situation to be in.

 

The point (at least for me) was that, yes, some Sisters may very well know of this outside of the Black Ajah, but few, and Pevera is not included among them.

[yoniy0]

and Pevera is not included among them.

Now you're going too far. We actually have very little evidence of that; failing to see what's right in front of her isn't a rare occurrence in tWoT.

[Barid Bel Medar]

and Pevera is not included among them.

Now you're going too far. We actually have very little evidence of that; failing to see what's right in front of her isn't a rare occurrence in tWoT.

 

Well, fair enough. Perhaps I should amend my statement. She may have knowledge of 13-13, as in she knows of it's existence, but not enough to recognize it. It is true that recognition seems to be a recessive gene in the WoT, however, suddenly changing an entire personality isn't exactly a subtle thing. I would think she would have suspected if she had any substantial knowledge on the subject.

[Wolf505]

My main point was this: Pevara is not only a Sitter, and a very senior Red sister, she has also dedicated her entire life to finding Darkfriends. Remember that's why she was brought into the hunt for the Black Ajah in the first place. If anyone would know about 13x13 in the Tower it would be someone like Pevara who is not only a very senior Aes Sedai, but a Sitter in the Hall AND dedicated to finding Darkfriends. To me it seems highly unlikely, if not downright unbelievable that Pevara wouldn't know about 13x13. Now, wether or not she can recognize that someone has been 13x13ed is another discussion entirely since it's highly unlikely anyone has actually seen it done since the Trolloc Wars.

[Terez]

and Pevera is not included among them.

Now you're going too far. We actually have very little evidence of that; failing to see what's right in front of her isn't a rare occurrence in tWoT.

 

Not even rare for Pevara. For example, she should have been much more suspicious of Alviarin than she was; there were a ton of clues pointing in that direction, and she wanted more than any of the others for Elaida to be innocent. When Seaine revealed that Elaida wanted her to investigate Alviarin, Pevara's first thought was that their one assurance Elaida wasn't Black was gone.

[Maleshub]

and Pevera is not included among them.

Now you're going too far. We actually have very little evidence of that; failing to see what's right in front of her isn't a rare occurrence in tWoT.

 

Not even rare for Pevara. For example, she should have been much more suspicious of Alviarin than she was; there were a ton of clues pointing in that direction, and she wanted more than any of the others for Elaida to be innocent. When Seaine revealed that Elaida wanted her to investigate Alviarin, Pevara's first thought was that their one assurance Elaida wasn't Black was gone.

 

Alviarin's case and escape is one of the most glaring examples of ineptitude. She could have given the BA Hunters what Verin gave to Egwene. A huge missed opportunity!

[Cybertrolloc]

I'm sorry, old editions. Can I have the quotes of other 13/13 mentions besides Egwene's Acceptotron and Liandrin (i.e. both from Black Ajah)?

[Naresh]

Am I the only one who seriously questions the actual 'source' of this discussion? Someone asks someone else to ask Sanderson an off the wall question, and that third party which isn't Sanderson answers? How is that any sort of validation? Perhaps I just don't know the actual personages behind these net-aliases, but the whole thing sounds really flimsy.

 

Even so, giving the benefit of the doubt that the stones of Taim's palace are Shayol Ghul stone... there's a very simple answer: It's obsidian. Volcanic glass. Obtainable just about anywhere, probably even easily produced via One Power manipulation of existing materials. Taim's palace could easily be called SG rock because there's nothing special about SG rock at all- it's just obsidian.

[TristanWebb]

Maria knows more about WoT than Sanderson, I wouldn't say she is disreputable.

[Terez]

Am I the only one who seriously questions the actual 'source' of this discussion? Someone asks someone else to ask Sanderson an off the wall question, and that third party which isn't Sanderson answers? How is that any sort of validation? Perhaps I just don't know the actual personages behind these net-aliases, but the whole thing sounds really flimsy.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about, but Brandon himself answered the question (twice, reported by two different sources), and he commented on the question on Twitter, so it has even more verification than the usual signing report. There are a ton of signing reports out there, few of which we have any reason to question, and they're referenced commonly in debates here.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Even so, giving the benefit of the doubt that the stones of Taim's palace are Shayol Ghul stone... there's a very simple answer: It's obsidian. Volcanic glass. Obtainable just about anywhere, probably even easily produced via One Power manipulation of existing materials. Taim's palace could easily be called SG rock because there's nothing special about SG rock at all- it's just obsidian.

 

Shayol Ghul isn't your average volcano. It doesn't work like the real world. Not to say that it CANT be obsidian, just that the normal volcanic process can't be applied here.

 

And SG rock not being special?

 

Nar, its not like anything weird happened to the land around Shayol Ghul. Nothing at all.

[yoniy0]

I highly doubt obsidian can support the walls of the BT, brittle as it is. Plus, even if SG stone is obsidian, that doesn't imply all obsidian is SG stone, and we're right back to where we started (with, as Barid says, quite a special rock being used).

[Sharaman]

We have no evidence to suggest anyone other than Sheriam knows of the 13-13. Obviously others will know of it, like the 13 blacks sent to Tear, and probably Verin and a few others, but to suggest something is common knowledge, when we only have Sheriam who has actually said anything about it, is a stretch.

 

It's mentioned by one of the BA in Tear who gloats to the supergirls after they're captured " 13 fades have been sent for". From context she (was it Joiya?) expects the Supergirls to know what it meant. If this was such a deep, dark secret, why would she expect the Supergirls to know? More likely, it's one of those titbits of knowledge that is obscure rather than secret. It might not have occurred to Pevara (we know it hasn't) as a possible explanation for Tarna's behavioural change - doesn't mean Pevara doesn't know about it.

[Naresh]

Am I the only one who seriously questions the actual 'source' of this discussion? Someone asks someone else to ask Sanderson an off the wall question, and that third party which isn't Sanderson answers? How is that any sort of validation? Perhaps I just don't know the actual personages behind these net-aliases, but the whole thing sounds really flimsy.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about, but Brandon himself answered the question (twice, reported by two different sources), and he commented on the question on Twitter, so it has even more verification than the usual signing report. There are a ton of signing reports out there, few of which we have any reason to question, and they're referenced commonly in debates here.

 

I had only the first post in this thread to go by as far as any sort of verification went, and it only quoted another post by Luckers quoting a question sent to Sanderson through Amadine... which is where my confusion comes from. I can only cite my DM-newbishness as excuse for not knowing anything about who's behind these aliases or what the actual source material of the quote was.

 

On the whole, it just seems like such a large point to just spoil like that if it is indeed actual stone from Shayol Ghul and not just a material that is similar to it. It's tantamount to coming out and saying Taim's nearly Chosen-level (if not Chosen already) in the Shadow heirarchy, and somehow got a special dispensation to go quarrying where most people aren't even allowed to channel a little bit. Very curious.

 

I highly doubt obsidian can support the walls of the BT, brittle as it is. Plus, even if SG stone is obsidian, that doesn't imply all obsidian is SG stone, and we're right back to where we started (with, as Barid says, quite a special rock being used).

 

Yes, in its natural state obsidian would be too brittle to build with, but they're using the One Power to do the building itself and it seems likely they could easily strengthen it in a fashion similar to power-wroughting a weapon. I wasn't implying that all obsidian was SG stone, only that their composition would be the same or close enough to it to allow for a yes answer without necessarily having to be a literal truth.

[yoniy0]

Actually, the thread contains references to Twitter discussions which support those reports, even if you don't know or trust Ama (Luckers is the administrator in charge of the WoT D boards, and Terez, of course, is the one whom you just quoted).

 

I do see your point regarding the OP, but in any case, my point was that a 'yes' answer isn't valid if it's just the same material, I don't think. The question was 'is it SG rock', not 'is it similar to SG rock'.

[Finnssss22]

Actually, the thread contains references to Twitter discussions which support those reports, even if you don't know or trust Ama (Luckers is the administrator in charge of the WoT D boards, and Terez, of course, is the one whom you just quoted).

 

I do see your point regarding the OP, but in any case, my point was that a 'yes' answer isn't valid if it's just the same material, I don't think. The question was 'is it SG rock', not 'is it similar to SG rock'.

 

Yeah, it's pretty clear and Terez (after the initial shock wore off) followed it up like white on rice to make sure there was absolutely no confusion.

 

 

Sometimes I think she gets BS in trouble for how much she digs out of him.

[Terez]

lol, I didn't follow it up, actually. I just tweeted about it, and Brandon commented on my tweets.