Portal Stone Creatures

[csnyder]

This has been on my mind recently. How exactly did the Seanchan tame creatures of the Dark One's worlds? The AS on Seanchan must have had some considerable skill with Portal Stones (the change from AS to damane severely hampered any collective knowledge, unfortunately), yet the purposeful domestication (to some extent) of the Dark One's creatures to fight against other creature of the Dark One to rid the Blight of constant threat seems counterintuitive.

 

Could it also be that the greater pre-Luthair population on Seanchan was Dark? That being that Trollocs on Seanchan Blight were transported over to Randland (perhaps during the Trolloc Wars) and were replaced by these creatures? Maybe Deaine was a Darkfriend as well (turning over a sister for collaring seems rather suspicious); in a world where subterfuge and power-hungry AS reign, a continent of DF is plausible, no? If so, it paints a stark picture of a lone Luthairian army in Seandar (assumedly in Seandar) surrounded by a Dark continent of shifting alliances; his arrival is post-Trolloc Wars/introduction of domesticated Dark creatures. If, during TG, such creatures are used, will they return alliance to the DO (for that matter can the DO affect evolution of species)?

 

Additionally, are we to assume Portal Stone Worlds run on the same time-dynamic as the 'real world' (are they in the Third Age? If the DO has won, why isn't it all primordial chaos/nothingness as Moridin tends to suggest?)? Since T'A'R has its own constants (although more reflective in nature), T'A'R must also follow the same time-dynamic of the 'real world' (for that matter, shouldn't day/night be flashing back and forth?) so it causes me to believe this is the case in other worlds...

[Barid Bel Medar]

This has been on my mind recently. How exactly did the Seanchan tame creatures of the Dark One's worlds?

 

Unless you are talking about something else, Mirror Worlds are not the "Dark One's".

 

The mirror world that Rand visited was but one of many.

 

The raken, grolm, torm etc.. are not shadowspawn.

[Suttree]

This has been on my mind recently. How exactly did the Seanchan tame creatures of the Dark One's worlds? The AS on Seanchan must have had some considerable skill with Portal Stones (the change from AS to damane severely hampered any collective knowledge, unfortunately), yet the purposeful domestication (to some extent) of the Dark One's creatures to fight against other creature of the Dark One to rid the Blight of constant threat seems counterintuitive.

 

Could it also be that the greater pre-Luthair population on Seanchan was Dark? That being that Trollocs on Seanchan Blight were transported over to Randland (perhaps during the Trolloc Wars) and were replaced by these creatures? Maybe Deaine was a Darkfriend as well (turning over a sister for collaring seems rather suspicious); in a world where subterfuge and power-hungry AS reign, a continent of DF is plausible, no? If so, it paints a stark picture of a lone Luthairian army in Seandar (assumedly in Seandar) surrounded by a Dark continent of shifting alliances; his arrival is post-Trolloc Wars/introduction of domesticated Dark creatures. If, during TG, such creatures are used, will they return alliance to the DO (for that matter can the DO affect evolution of species)?

 

Additionally, are we to assume Portal Stone Worlds run on the same time-dynamic as the 'real world' (are they in the Third Age? If the DO has won, why isn't it all primordial chaos/nothingness as Moridin tends to suggest?)? Since T'A'R has its own constants (although more reflective in nature), T'A'R must also follow the same time-dynamic of the 'real world' (for that matter, shouldn't day/night be flashing back and forth?) so it causes me to believe this is the case in other worlds...

 

Because Mirror/Portal stone worlds are only "what if" scenarios. They are different than parallel worlds which is where the Finns live.

 

 

Interview: Jun 10th, 2010

 

Plot Related Q&A With Maria Simons + New MAFO by Luckers (Verbatim)

Luckers

 

 

This is also from one of Brandon's hash outs with Matt from Theoryland. In it Brandon speaks of the nature of Parallel Worlds.

Brandon: Extrapolations of this question get us to: is there one Dragon for all different Parallels or are they all different Dragons? Traveling through the Portal Stone seems to indicate that there are many different lives Rand could have led. The same thing happens with several of the

ter'angreal

that people go through. The question then is, are those all separate universes? Do we have a multi-verse sort of concept? Or are they possibilities and do these worlds all exist or could exist, what is the difference. In some of those Rand failed. So, is Rand the Dragon in all of them or is Rand not the Dragon in some of them? What happens in the ones where Rand failed? Are they real worlds? Are those different worlds where there is a different Dark One who then takes over and destroys that world or maybe not, maybe he makes it has he wishes. Or are those just possibilities, reflections of this world that don't really exist except when we touch them? Those are all very good questions. Robert Jordan said that

Tel'aran'rhiod

is a reflection of all different worlds, which implies other worlds continue to exist. The World of the Finns is something different...

Matt: ...he called it a Parallel World...

Brandon: Yes, the Parallel World, that one and also the one Rand and Lanfear visited are persistent regardless of someone from this world visiting. Yet, many of those seem almost shadowy and reflections of the real world, some of them seem as real just strange when visiting them. What happens in these different world, that sort of thing, those were never questions that Robert Jordan answered...

Ok, my request for clarification is mainly concerned with that last paragraph—specifically it left me confused about whether Brandon is speaking about Parallel Worlds or Mirror Worlds. Brandon seems to lump both in together, describing some as shadowy, some as solid. Brandon describes the Finn world as THE Parallel World (we also know the Ogier world is a Parallel World), but in the same paragraph Brandon seems to define it as a persistent Mirror World of some form, and grants that same allocation to the world Rand and Lanfear visited in The Great Hunt.

Maria Simons

 

Cut Brandon a break, here. I had to look it up to make sure that I had which one was which correct. The 'finn worlds are Parallel Worlds, the Ogier world is a Parallel World. The place that Lanfear, Rand, Loial and Hurin went to was a Mirror World, as were all of the ones in the Portal Stone incident.

 

As for the rest there is nothing to indicate the Seanchan continent was populated by DFs. They just brought exotics back and domesticated them. Grolm, Raken etc are not Shadowspawn.

 

 

Edit: Barid beat me to it...

[jsbrads]

Seachan didn't go thru portal stone to get grolm or raken, grolm and raken live in russia (the area of the world seachan are from)

for whatever reason, creatures have different habitats and don't often explore different continents

[Suttree]

Seachan didn't go thru portal stone to get grolm or raken, grolm and raken live in russia

 

Yes they did...

 

 

BWB

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn.

[csnyder]

I do withdraw my comment that ALL Mirror Worlds are the DO's, but the one we saw in TGH was a Dark one. The existence of the grolm in that world, and being transported from a Mirror World themselves, leads me to suspect the mirror world that the Seanchanspawn were extracted from (perhaps they are not Shadowspawn, but raised for Dark purposes).

 

I can agree with the persistent mirror worlds not truly existing, but that is exactly where the Seanchan ported the later-Seanchanspawn from. And, in that mirror world the Dark One had or would have won I assumed. The Trolloc statue seems proof of that (or maybe the Trolloc Wars were lost by humanity?). There is no saying that the Seanchan pulled the grolm, et al., from a different world with different evolutions of creatures but the fact that it is a mirror world raises the question...if it is that reflective universe then it would follow to assume it is the Third Age there, too? Why would grolm exist they're if not one of the DO's creatures in that bleak reflection? I guess RJ left much information to be desired in this arena per the interview quote.

 

I mean, how can you pull something that doesn't exist from nothingness/possibility into reality? It is what happened with Birgitte, but Birgitte serves as a constant for the Pattern, not the Seanchanspawn.

[Barid Bel Medar]

And, in that mirror world the Dark One had or would have won I assumed. The Trolloc statue seems proof of that (or maybe the Trolloc Wars were lost by humanity?).

 

I will not comment on the rest of your post, I am just about to go, however, on this point, yes, it was the Trolloc Wars (or a similar event) being lost by humanity, the DO is still sealed in this world. If the DO was free, it would definitely not be so "normal". The whole world would be completely warped. Also, there is the theory that if the DO breaks free in one world, he breaks free in all. (Granted, this is only from Verin, but I believe the theory has strong evidence of being correct, again though, I do not have the time to look it up, perhaps someone else could? Or I will try and get back to you later with more detail.)

[Thrasymachus]

 

I mean, how can you pull something that doesn't exist from nothingness/possibility into reality?

If you figure that one out, let me know. The whole of Western science and philosophy has been trying to figure out why there's something rather than nothing, and how nothing/possibility can give rise to something for at least the last 4000 years. At least in this case, we know that it's because it's more interesting for there to be grolm rather than not-grolm.

 

The way I recall Verin describing it, the Mirror worlds run parallel to our world, as reflections of different possibilities. On the other hand, there are Parallel worlds, which run (counter-intuitively) perpendicular to our world. They're not different possibilities, but really different worlds. Tel'aran'rhiod lies between them all. The portal stones appear to travel between mirror worlds, and various ter'angreal are required to travel between parallel worlds, like the redstone doorways or the Tower of Ghengi. I would also argue that the ogier's Book of Translation is a similar ter'angreal that will allow them to move to a parallel world, and it seems likely to me that such a parallel world was their origin, given that they are not constructs and there hasn't really been enough time for them to have independently evolved. I also think it's likely that the Seanchan critters also evolved on a parallel world and brought over to one of the mirror worlds, where they were subsequently brought over to ours, if the BWB is correct on them being brought over through the use of Portal stones. It is also possible that one of the female channeler rulers of the Seanchan continents prior to Luthair's conquests possessed a ter'angreal that allowed travel between the parallel world, or possibly worlds, on which those critters evolved, and that this ter'angreal was confused for a portal stone.

 

Consider the following scenario: The people of the mirror world Rand, Hurin and Loial get transported to, during their Trolloc Wars, become desperate because they're losing. They go to the Finns, and wish for some critters that they can control and are as strong and ferocious as the Shadowspawn. The Finns comply, but to no avail, the people of the mirror world lose, and their new critters go wild in a world where Trollocs eventually kill off all the people and then kill off themselves. Later, some Seanchan travel to the mirror world, find these critters, and bring 'em back to the main timeline.

 

Further, the Dark One needs more than just victory over humans to win. He has to be set free. It's not enough for Rand to be killed, or even for all of humanity to be wiped out so there's no more Dragon. Why do you think for so long the standing order has been for Rand to not be killed or harmed? Only when Rand gets the Chodean Kal and threatens to cleanse Saidin does that order get lifted, reluctantly, and then after Rand succeeds anyway, goes back in place. Rand himself seems to be somehow necessary for the Dark One's ultimate victory.

[csnyder]

Will keep you posted, Thrasymachus.

 

So, with the idea of perpendicular worlds and parallel worlds coexisting it goes without saying that there must be parallel worlds to aforestated perpendicular worlds to our own. Along these lines, a two-step dimensional jump to get the Seanchanspawn is not too farfetched.

 

Your last paragraph with Rand needing to be successful to a certain extent in order for the DO to be freed is also an interesting twist that RJ has employed before requiring characters to work through/with their enemies - I like that interpretation and it has sound logic. The balance with Rand needing to destroy the Seals effectively setting the DO free in order to seal him properly also follows such logic.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The whole deal with the Seanchanspawn is very confusing, there are mixed and contradicting reports.

 

First we have this about Parallel vs. Mirror Worlds (I think perpendicular worlds is a different name)

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 4th, 2005

DragonCon Report - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

MATT HATCH

This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?

ROBERT JORDAN

They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

 

Then we have this.

 

INTERVIEW: 2001

Thus Spake the Creator (Paraphrased)

SIGNING REPORT (OTHER LANDS)

Were the Seanchan animals created before or after the Shadowspawn?

ROBERT JORDAN

They are the 'exotics'. They were brought to Randland from parallel dimensions (like in the Portal Stones). When Rand saw grolm in the Portal Stone world, he was seeing them in the native 'land'.

FOOTNOTE

This answer is a bit puzzling in that later questions to RJ about Portal Stones indicate that they connect to Mirror Worlds, not Parallel Worlds. In addition, the BWB indicates that the Seanchan exotics were brought back from Parallel Worlds via Portal Stones.

 

Bold parts the most important.

 

So we have the BWB and RJ saying that these Senchanspawn are from Parallel worlds via portal stones.

 

Then we have him saying Portal Stones do not connect to Parallel Worlds.

 

THEN we have RJ saying that the MIRROR WORLD is the grolm's (tGH) native land...

 

As far as I know, it has not been clarified to any extent. No idea what is going on with this.

 

It seems likely from textual evidence that the Seanchanspawn were acquired through Portal Stones, thus placing them in Mirror Worlds rather than Parallel worlds. (the grolm incident is the only actual in-book evidence we have of this subject)

 

The BWB then, seems to be false. RJ did say that the BWB was supposed to be complied by in-world people, not written as "Robert Jordan" if you understand me. The information in it is not necessarily cannon, it is merely a representation of what the 3rd Agers believe about the world. So, the only explaination I can think of is that these "historians" who "wrote" the BWB were mistaken and this information is wrong...

It seems very unlikely to me, since the BWB is a pretty good source, I haven't seen something untrue without the disclaimer "or that is what it is believed to be" or something else to that effect.

[Suttree]

The whole deal with the Seanchanspawn is very confusing, there are mixed and contradicting reports.

 

First we have this about Parallel vs. Mirror Worlds (I think perpendicular worlds is a different name)

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 4th, 2005

DragonCon Report - Matt Hatch (Verbatim)

MATT HATCH

This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?

ROBERT JORDAN

They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

 

Then we have this.

 

INTERVIEW: 2001

Thus Spake the Creator (Paraphrased)

SIGNING REPORT (OTHER LANDS)

Were the Seanchan animals created before or after the Shadowspawn?

ROBERT JORDAN

They are the 'exotics'. They were brought to Randland from parallel dimensions (like in the Portal Stones). When Rand saw grolm in the Portal Stone world, he was seeing them in the native 'land'.

FOOTNOTE

This answer is a bit puzzling in that later questions to RJ about Portal Stones indicate that they connect to Mirror Worlds, not Parallel Worlds. In addition, the BWB indicates that the Seanchan exotics were brought back from Parallel Worlds via Portal Stones.

 

Bold parts the most important.

 

So we have the BWB and RJ saying that these Senchanspawn are from Parallel worlds via portal stones.

 

Then we have him saying Portal Stones do not connect to Parallel Worlds.

 

THEN we have RJ saying that the MIRROR WORLD is the grolm's (tGH) native land...

 

As far as I know, it has not been clarified to any extent. No idea what is going on with this.

 

It has been clarified. Mirror worlds are where they got the exotics. Portal stones lead to them. Parallel worlds are where the Finns & possibly Ogier come from and are accessed by ter'angreal.

 

RJ likely misspoke when he said "parallel dimensions".

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, I assumed as much, thanks! I knew it was strange. I always understood the differences between the two, and thought it weird that it was mixed up.

 

So this means the BWB was incorrect then.

[Byzantine279]

Note the second one is paraphrased, it is possible those where not RJ's exact words, and the guy used the synomyms that made sense and seemed innocent at the time.

 

Also, I wouldn't find it unlikely that RJ hadn't decided on the exact terminology, leading to confusion when he did so, as his earlier wording was more ambiguous and slightly strange compared to the later wording.

[jsbrads]

okay, grolm were imports, but they were imported before the current age, say by AoLers

[csnyder]

okay, grolm were imports, but they were imported before the current age, say by AoLers

All Seanchanspawn (not only grolm, I assume) are imported from the Mirror Worlds accessed through Portal Stones (though whether they originated from these worlds or were introduced by other means is unclear). Timeline-wise, it was not achieved by AoLers, rather by AS with Portal Stone-knowledge during or prior the Trolloc Wars and definitely before Luthair laid claim to the continent. If they had existed during the AoL, we would have had such evidence.