price that dragon is going to ask for going to sg

[Thrasymachus]

I am sorry Thrasymachus but are we reading the same series? I mean that we all know that nobody really loves Aes Sedai but collaring people who can channel is taking it bit too far. Another thing that you mentioned that spies used by great houses are not the same as those sorry questioners or hands or whatever they use. They actually subvert neighbors to spy on their neighbors and family to give up people among their own for nothing more than looking at someone wrong. I mean if BS makes some kind of hero out of Seanchans I am going to be really cross.

 

I believe we are reading the same series, so there's no reason to be so incredulous. I've already excluded their treatment of female channelers, because that is one thing I think Rand and the Pattern itself will press them to give up, and which they have abundant reason to give up sooner rather than later. Rand will be 'tearing apart all ties that bind,' and he will 'break chains and put others into chains,' after all. And you can't tell me that the Listeners and Seekers employed by the Seanchan are any worse than Whitecloak Questioners, or any worse than the spies and assassins employed by the Carheinin. The Seanchan aren't evil, that's the Shadow. Only one human nation ever became 'evil' in the 3rd age and that was Aridhol, unless you want to argue that the Seanchan are somehow as evil and corrupted as Shadar Logoth.

[Suttree]

And you can't tell me that the Listeners and Seekers employed by the Seanchan are any worse than Whitecloak Questioners, or any worse than the spies and assassins employed by the Carheinin.

 

Quite the ringing endorsement.

 

Even so yes they are far worse because they have influence and power over an entire nation. If someone doesn't like the state of things in Amadacia or Cairhein(which in reality isn't even comparable) they can up and leave.

[Thrasymachus]

I don't see the Seanchan doing much to keep the farmers or other common people who want to flee from being able to do so. In fact, they seem to encourage them to spread the word of their armies before them as they leave. And what's remarkable is how few of these commoners actually do choose to leave, and that there are others who appear to prefer to live under Seanchan rule. The Seanchan are no worse than the Tairens when it comes to oppression of the people, no worse than the Whitecloaks when it comes to torturing people and subverting communities, and no worse than the Carheinin when it comes to plotting, spying and assassination. And in their ability to create stability and enough justice to satisfy the common people, they appear to be quite a bit better than any of those groups. We have the judgments of the common people who choose to stay under Seanchan rule, the judgments of the Tinkers who are settling down under the Seanchan for the first time in the 3rd age free from the oppression that's dogged them in the Westlands that whole time, and the judgment of Rand who sees that the people under the Seanchan rule are better fed and more content than the people under his rule. We also don't know the nature or extent of the rebellions or sedition various Seanchan military officers have mentioned, whether they stem from merely political disputes such as scheming that has been uncovered, or through maladministration that leads to civil revolt.

[Suttree]

I don't see the Seanchan doing much to keep the farmers or other common people who want to flee from being able to do so. In fact, they seem to encourage them to spread the word of their armies before them as they leave. And what's remarkable is how few of these commoners actually do choose to leave, and that there are others who appear to prefer to live under Seanchan rule. The Seanchan are no worse than the Tairens when it comes to oppression of the people, no worse than the Whitecloaks when it comes to torturing people and subverting communities, and no worse than the Carheinin when it comes to plotting, spying and assassination. And in their ability to create stability and enough justice to satisfy the common people, they appear to be quite a bit better than any of those groups. We have the judgments of the common people who choose to stay under Seanchan rule, the judgments of the Tinkers who are settling down under the Seanchan for the first time in the 3rd age free from the oppression that's dogged them in the Westlands that whole time, and the judgment of Rand who sees that the people under the Seanchan rule are better fed and more content than the people under his rule. We also don't know the nature or extent of the rebellions or sedition various Seanchan military officers have mentioned, whether they stem from merely political disputes such as scheming that has been uncovered, or through maladministration that leads to civil revolt.

 

I was referring to the Seanchan mainland in being able to leave, not the conquered territories. Nevertheless here we have both the Taraboners and Domani in open revolt so no the commoners are not satisfied. Once again they are far worse than the WCs because they sow fear and propaganda across an entire nation. They do this to keep society stratified not to further some "anti-dark friend" ideology. They have fare more influence and their methods are much more brutal. Same goes for Cairhein, the spies and assassinations happen amongst the nobles, it isn't a part of every day life for the majority of the population. Most telling however is you have to find the very worst aspects outside of Seanchan(Tear, Whitecloacks, Cairhein assassinations) to even have something remotely comparable. That says all you need to know right there.

 

As for stability the fact remains their system does not work. They have rebellion and sedition(they would not have used this word unless it was some type of civil revolt) both here and on the mainland.

[csnyder]

We have to read the series as a post-Utopia developmentally imperfect distopia. All of the ruins dotting the landscape reflect this idea - and the constant shifting of nations (albeit over thousands of years) shows that the Westlands have yet to reproduce anything long-lasting. No matter the type of rule over a nation, there will always easily be critiques for any other type of political form. When it comes to Seanchan, I have to agree with Thrasymachus that despite their imperialistic nature, we have seen that the security they offer for their general populace is desired in this distopia - at the unbalance of damane and their Seekers. Fact is, that this security force of the Seekers is rather similar to any similar bureau in today's society; additionally, control of a superior firearm (damane) is also common in today's society. So, using this as a basic for a political argument seems rather flawed and devil's-advocative. The hegemony employed by the Westlands was formerly feudalistic (over time this characteristic of the West disappeared completely, most probably as a result of AS influence over rulers they could not bring to heel) but now open territorial war exists amongst many of the nations under Rand (currently these impulses are being set aside for TG).

 

When it comes to Taraboners and Domani, most of the Domani were under the direct/indirect manipulations of Graendal with the intent to cause general chaos; Ituralde also had a considerable influence over the entire Western Randland area until he was relocated to Maradon, so this disorder could be related to the lack of a general. And as Thrasymachus stated, we really have not seen these revolts merely rumors (which could be offset from any other source related to the Seanchan, maybe even Falme considering how much time has really passed...2,3 years?). We cannot deny the fact of the Tinkers' retreat to Seanchan regions is telling in of itself of their style of rule - using the Westland's perspective of the Seanchan government as a moral compass is easy to understand as the story is set up that way, but denying the positive aspects of the Seanchan style (remember this is in a distopia developing steadily into a utopia, mistakes are bound to occur and changes to be made) seems a tad short-sighted. Egwene seeing with Need the Tinkers' fire in TAR shows that they have been there for some time; to avoid annoying the poster, I feel that the Seanchan's view and acceptance of Tinkers will actually help in the negotiations (to Egwene's chagrin, maybe she will recognize her hatred is stemming the success for the Light).

[Suttree]

And as Thrasymachus stated, we really have not seen these revolts merely rumors (which could be offset from any other source related to the Seanchan, maybe even Falme considering how much time has really passed...2,3 years?).

 

The Seanchan Empire has a long history of upheaval and rebellion. Further more they are not rumors, Karede speaks of putting down "numerous" rebellions in his time withe the Deathwatch Guard and we have another Seeker in tFoH claim straight out "There is sedition in this district." The claim of total stability is just more political propaganda along the lines of their "ever victorious army".

 

Btw the Damane system and seekers have no comparison in modern society. You can not legally kidnap and torture civilians because they have differing viewpoints on how a country should be run. In addition the very fact that you would list damane as a "superior firearm" as opposed to what they are, a human being is rather telling.

[csnyder]

In recent history, you could kidnap (and as far as we know) torture civilians Suttree although I see where you are coming from. In many countries, despite legality, this still happens to this day. I know you are looking at the series from a modern-day perspective, but the fact that slavery exists within the framework of the story near-requires us have to at least try to look at the situation from the Seanchan perspective - it's why science fiction is so interesting forcing us to rethink what we take for granted or juxtapose our thoughts and feelings to make sense of different worlds. It is not rather telling, as I am pacifistic; I highly respect your opinions otherwise I would not respond to them, so I apologize if I offended.

[Thrasymachus]

Fundamentally, the political hegemony in the Westlands is still predominantly feudalistic, which is one reason I don't think your average Westlands nation can claim much, if any moral superiority over the Seanchan. There are strong mercantilist elements in both Seanchan and Westlands political structures, but the lords and ladies in both have vast, undemocratic and unearned power to interfere. The exceptions to this moral equivalency that I concede include their practice of slavery, and their methods of finding and keeping damane. I think the Seanchan authority (Fortuona) is going to be under considerable pressure to reform those two institutions prior to and after the Last Battle. But I also think that their practice of slavery is not as horrifying or not much morally worse than the feudalistic practices already practiced in the Westlands. It resembles more the style of Roman or Greek slavery, where the slaves had rights, could own property, could attain social status, could buy their freedom, etc., than American style slavery where people were kept basically as livestock. The slavery of damane, however, is much like that American style, which, in my opinion, is much more morally worse than than the more liberal style of slavery of the da'covale.

 

As far as the upheavals and rebellions are concerned, I don't dispute them. I'm just pointing out that we don't know what kind of rebellion or sedition was going on. Remember how the Aiel fight against each other clan vs clan or sept vs sept when they were in the Waste, in order to prepare for He Who Comes With the Dawn? Imagine doing that same thing on a political stage, instead of the stage of the battlefield. Wouldn't political machinations that failed, schemes that blew up in the schemer's faces, so to speak, be referred to by the victorious political party as a 'sedition' that was 'put down?' I'm not saying it wouldn't involve some fighting, but we don't really know the extent of the fighting, nor how much it interfered with the lives of the common folk. And I do think it's telling that the Seanchan military aren't terrorizing the villagers or common folk they come across, they're not razing fields and raping women. They're letting people go who want to go, channelers excepted of course, and they're letting people stay who want to stay. And they appear to be treating people well enough that you've got rulers like Beslan who've accepted their rule, and Tinkers who are flocking to their territories.

[Azrayne]

I'm not sure I even object that much to the whole damane thing.

 

Ok, that sounds horrible at first glance, because the book is viewed so much from the POV of channelers, but we never consider what it would actually be like having people walk around the earth with godlike powers, able to blow apart entire buildings or casually kill people with a glance, summon explosions, distort the weather, not to mention twisting peoples minds at a whim till they're forced to worship and obey them.

 

Imagine walking down the street knowing that anyone you pass could randomly have the equivalent of a rocket launcher or worse available at the flick of their fingers. It's not licensed, not regulated, not earned, just 1 - 3% of the population randomly have powers to completely dominate the rest of society. Doesn't that seem a little messed up to you?

 

You think people wouldn't abuse it? Hell, as a modern society we have enough trouble just with guns, imagine dealing with fireballs and balefire. And don't even start on compulsion, the potential for abuse is insane. The reality is that these people would completely dominate society and normal people would end up as nothing more than a slave cast. Those kind of power disparities always end up slavery and slaughter (just look at Europe v. The World circa 160th century).

 

Frankly, if there wasn't any middle ground like the 3 Oaths, society would be better off with channelers leashed.

[Suttree]

And I do think it's telling that the Seanchan military aren't terrorizing the villagers or common folk they come across, they're not razing fields and raping women. They're letting people go who want to go, channelers excepted of course, and they're letting people stay who want to stay. And they appear to be treating people well enough that you've got rulers like Beslan who've accepted their rule, and Tinkers who are flocking to their territories.

 

What of people on the Seanchan continent however? They can not go if they want and the main reason they let people go on the main continent is they think they will control it all one day so it doesn't matter.

 

To your point about slaves, once again it is the smallest upper percentage who outrank free men and women. The rest have no chance to buy their freedom,(actually can any?) are sold like animals and can be used in any way(including sexual abuse etc) by their masters. Once again...

 

BWB

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks...The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

 

There is so little opportunity that people occasionally SELL future generations into slavery for a shot at advancing beyond one's station of birth!

 

I'm not sure I even object that much to the whole damane thing.

 

Ok, that sounds horrible at first glance, because the book is viewed so much from the POV of channelers, but we never consider what it would actually be like having people walk around the earth with godlike powers, able to blow apart entire buildings or casually kill people with a glance, summon explosions, distort the weather, not to mention twisting peoples minds at a whim till they're forced to worship and obey them.

 

This whole line of argument is horribly flawed. So we are now punishing people, erasing their identity and turning them into something less than human because they have the POTENTIAL to cause harm. No, sorry mate that doesn't work in the slightest.

[muddasssir]

I mean it is just one step from what Nazis did to Jews or kgb did to its own citizens in Russia and happens in lot of authoritarian Governments around the world. where does it stop you said something you are going to suffer, your so or daughter is born with wrong gene pool she will have to suffer and you will have to give her up you people are subverting the whole theme of series which is an old age fantasy adage there can be no shadow without light. I will do another detailed post later as I have to get back to office. lol

[randsc]

‎"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -- William Pitt

[David Selig]

I'm not sure I even object that much to the whole damane thing.

 

Ok, that sounds horrible at first glance, because the book is viewed so much from the POV of channelers, but we never consider what it would actually be like having people walk around the earth with godlike powers, able to blow apart entire buildings or casually kill people with a glance, summon explosions, distort the weather, not to mention twisting peoples minds at a whim till they're forced to worship and obey them.

 

Imagine walking down the street knowing that anyone you pass could randomly have the equivalent of a rocket launcher or worse available at the flick of their fingers. It's not licensed, not regulated, not earned, just 1 - 3% of the population randomly have powers to completely dominate the rest of society. Doesn't that seem a little messed up to you?

 

You think people wouldn't abuse it? Hell, as a modern society we have enough trouble just with guns, imagine dealing with fireballs and balefire. And don't even start on compulsion, the potential for abuse is insane. The reality is that these people would completely dominate society and normal people would end up as nothing more than a slave cast. Those kind of power disparities always end up slavery and slaughter (just look at Europe v. The World circa 160th century).

 

Frankly, if there wasn't any middle ground like the 3 Oaths, society would be better off with channelers leashed.

But how does leashing solve all these potential problems? It just transfers the control from the channeller to the sul'dam. That's all. The potential for destruction and abuse of power is still exactly the same. Which makes the whole Seanchan system incredibly hypocritical.

[Thrasymachus]

Yeah, I'm not gonna be defending the practice of keeping channelers as damane. I can understand how it came about, but I certainly don't approve. As for the Seanchan mainland, we've never really had an extensive PoV from there. We don't really know what the lives of the common folk are like. We don't know all the kinds of scheming, or lack thereof, that goes on among the nobility. All we really know about the Seanchan are a few rumors from their homeland and how they've treated people once they've got to the Westlands. I grant you that their practice of slavery and their practice of keeping damane are enough "to make a goat gag" as Perrin puts it. But as Perrin also notes, there is also honor there, and I detect what appears to be a more finely tuned noblesse oblige. Sure, I'd prefer democracy and the sort of institutional bureaucracy that protects individual human rights, but if wishes were horses...

 

In any event, my point is that it's worth ceding some Westlands territory in order to secure the peace and wartime alliances needed to permanently seal the Dark One. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that the future that Aviendha witnessed in the glass columns is worth permanently sealing the Dark One. I don't think it's gonna go down that way any longer since she's seen it, but I do think it's worth it.

[Suttree]

Yeah, I'm not gonna be defending the practice of keeping channelers as damane. I can understand how it came about, but I certainly don't approve. As for the Seanchan mainland, we've never really had an extensive PoV from there. We don't really know what the lives of the common folk are like. We don't know all the kinds of scheming, or lack thereof, that goes on among the nobility. All we really know about the Seanchan are a few rumors from their homeland and how they've treated people once they've got to the Westlands.

 

Wonder what Alliandre thinks in relation to how they treat people? There is simply no excuse for anyone in that manner. Every slave aside from the upper 5% can be sold, split from their family, raped etc.

 

Lastly once again we have heard more than rumors. We have a direct statement about "sedition" from a seeker and Karede says "numerous" rebellions. Those are not rumors.

[Thrasymachus]

I believe you mean Amathera, who was made da'covale by the darkfriend Suroth. I'm not sure you can claim that what she did to Amathera in making her da'covale was normal, standard operating Seanchan procedure. It's certainly not in line with how Tuon and the Seanchan treated Tylin and Beslan, nor even the Whitecloaks. Suroth herself was only made da'covale once her extreme sedition against Tuon and the Empire was discovered. And what we hear from the Seeker and from Karede are no more illuminating than rumors. They don't tell us the extent or nature of the seditions or rebellions. My larger point remains undisputed. We simply do not have enough information to judge how the common folk are treated, what their lives are like, on the Seanchan mainlands. All we have is how they treat people in the Westlands. They have been both unjustifiably harsh and uncommonly accommodating to the nobles they have defeated, but they have been extraordinarily accommodating of the common folk already living and working in the areas, welcoming of refugees, and extremely efficient in the deployment of public resources for the benefit of the people.

[Suttree]

I believe you mean Amathera, who was made da'covale by the darkfriend Suroth. I'm not sure you can claim that what she did to Amathera in making her da'covale was normal, standard operating Seanchan procedure. It's certainly not in line with how Tuon and the Seanchan treated Tylin and Beslan, nor even the Whitecloaks. Suroth herself was only made da'covale once her extreme sedition against Tuon and the Empire was discovered. And what we hear from the Seeker and from Karede are no more illuminating than rumors. They don't tell us the extent or nature of the seditions or rebellions. My larger point remains undisputed. We simply do not have enough information to judge how the common folk are treated, what their lives are like, on the Seanchan mainlands. All we have is how they treat people in the Westlands. They have been both unjustifiably harsh and uncommonly accommodating to the nobles they have defeated, but they have been extraordinarily accommodating of the common folk already living and working in the areas, welcoming of refugees, and extremely efficient in the deployment of public resources for the benefit of the people.

 

You are right, thank you for correction.

 

Your comments further highlight my point however, if you happen to be part of the lucky few than great. If not you end up like Amathera and there is nothing to indicate her treatment is out of the ordinary. You either choose to take the oaths or end up like her. As for the unrest the mention of both sedition(more likely to be commoners) and rebellion being widespread(in addition to the long history of conflict the country has) is highly suggestive that all is not right under the web of propaganda. Either way the only good thing they claim to offer is stability and we know that is a lie.

 

As for the common folk I beg to differ. We do know how they are treated. They can be bought and sold if they are in the wrong class, they have heavy state enforced propaganda shoved down their throat, they can be murdered for meeting the Empress eyes, they are used for sport with the placement of Adam on certain males to see if they die screaming, they can be kidnapped and tortured at the merest rumor that they spoke out against the government or conspired with undesirables. Lastly we know...

 

BWB

Since Luthair's conquest, Seanchan has evolved into a nation that is stratified and has very little movement between the ranks...The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

 

You can not tell me there isn't anyone unhappy with having zero(aside from selling future generations of your family into slavery) chance at advancing beyond their station at birth. That is more than enough reason for "sedition" and we see the results in how much unrest there is.

[Thrasymachus]

If you're gonna keep bringing up that single quote from the BWB, perhaps I should find those quotes from RJ about how the BWB isn't entirely accurate, written from the perspective of a 4th Age historian? From my perspective, the BWB is about as valid a source as the Wheel of Time wiki, it's good, and can be used as long as there's some third-source agreement.

 

I'm going to restate my position again, clearly, because I'm getting the feeling that I'm being pushed into taking positions I don't believe and that I have no desire to take. I believe that ceding Westland territories to Seanchan control in order to help beat the Dark One and secure a lasting peace after victory is a price worth paying. Slavery of any sort is morally abhorrent, but it's also a very human evil; i.e. most human societies throughout history practiced slavery of one sort or another, and some still do despite a nominal 1st world intolerance of it. A caste-based or class-based society is also very human and very common. I'm not inclined to point at, say 14th century India and say, "You guys suck compared to 14th century France, because you've got these rigid castes and practice overt slavery, and France just has peasants and nobles and the Church."

[Suttree]

If you're gonna keep bringing up that single quote from the BWB, perhaps I should find those quotes from RJ about how the BWB isn't entirely accurate, written from the perspective of a 4th Age historian? From my perspective, the BWB is about as valid a source as the Wheel of Time wiki, it's good, and can be used as long as there's some third-source agreement.

 

Wait what? The quote is entirely supported by everything we know from the text about their stratified society. Funny how people only bring up the BWB not being valid when they disagree with what is written. Despite RJ's claim I have yet to see anything glaringly wrong in it and as of yet no one has been able to provide examples. It was a book written to further our understanding of this world. There is zero reason to suspect(and plenty of textual evidence to back it up) it is inaccurate in this instance.

[Thrasymachus]

Careful, now Suttree, you don't want to be accusing RJ of lying about the BWB's accuracy. I stand by my standards regarding the BWB. It's valid when there is corroboration from the primary texts and/or from the authors, otherwise, it's as suspect as the wiki. In point of fact, regarding social mobility, we've seen quite a lot within the novels. Nobles and officers being raised from the Low Blood to the High or at least expressing that as a reasonable hope, or being inducted into the Low Blood. High Blood and Low Blood both losing status, sometimes quite a lot of status. But I make the same concessions here that I make regarding regarding the virtue, or lack thereof, of Aes Sedai. There's simply not enough information presented in the books to make an accurate judgment regarding Seanchan social mobility, while we do have plentiful examples of social mobility in the books, that's not enough to say that it is satisfactory, but neither is it enough to claim that it is insufficient. And in any event it is irrelevant. It does not bear on my claim that ceding portions of the Westlands to the Seanchan in order to beat the Dark One and secure a lasting peace after the Last Battle is a price worth paying.

[Suttree]

Careful, now Suttree, you don't want to be accusing RJ of lying about the BWB's accuracy. I stand by my standards regarding the BWB. It's valid when there is corroboration from the primary texts and/or from the authors, otherwise, it's as suspect as the wiki. In point of fact, regarding social mobility, we've seen quite a lot within the novels. Nobles and officers being raised from the Low Blood to the High or at least expressing that as a reasonable hope, or being inducted into the Low Blood. High Blood and Low Blood both losing status, sometimes quite a lot of status. But I make the same concessions here that I make regarding regarding the virtue, or lack thereof, of Aes Sedai. There's simply not enough information presented in the books to make an accurate judgment regarding Seanchan social mobility, while we do have plentiful examples of social mobility in the books, that's not enough to say that it is satisfactory, but neither is it enough to claim that it is insufficient. And in any event it is irrelevant. It does not bear on my claim that ceding portions of the Westlands to the Seanchan in order to beat the Dark One and secure a lasting peace after the Last Battle is a price worth paying.

`

 

RJ most likely made the statement to account for any mistakes. The fact that it is a book meant to flesh out our understanding and that I have not seen any examples of it being glaringly wrong are far from calling RJ a liar so please do away with that straw man. Regardless it is far more valid than WoT Wiki. It honestly is laughable you would place a published work authorized by the author next to a fan made website that makes assumptions based on interpretation and at times flat out makes things up.

 

You are right about some of social mobility we have seen and it is for a very unique reason. The return offers all sorts of advancement opportunities that would not normally be the case. Nevertheless once again this is for a very small percentage of the population.

[Thrasymachus]

RJ didn't write the BWB, he supplied a bunch of notes to a fan who wrote it. And he wasn't very happy with it in the end, giving that disclaimer. In many ways, it's worse than the wiki because it's just one fan's interpretation. At least the wiki allows people with differing interpretations to come in and add their points of view as well. Sure the BWB was intended to flesh out our understanding of Randland, but so was the wiki. Good intentions and 5 dollars will get you a cup of coffee. The "calling RJ a liar" bit was a joke and a reference to the Demandred/Taim thread. And you've never noticed any glaring inaccuracies in the BWB? How about the Nine Rods of Dominion being the Oath Rods?

[Suttree]

RJ didn't write the BWB, he supplied a bunch of notes to a fan who wrote it. And he wasn't very happy with it in the end, giving that disclaimer. In many ways, it's worse than the wiki because it's just one fan's interpretation. At least the wiki allows people with differing interpretations to come in and add their points of view as well. Sure the BWB was intended to flesh out our understanding of Randland, but so was the wiki. Good intentions and 5 dollars will get you a cup of coffee. The "calling RJ a liar" bit was a joke and a reference to the Demandred/Taim thread. And you've never noticed any glaring inaccuracies in the BWB? How about the Nine Rods of Dominion being the Oath Rods?

 

I don't recall that? I remember this...

There are records that, toward the end of the Age, Lews Therin Telamon, who was then First Among Servants, wore the ring of the Tamyrlin and summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion

 

which doesn't seem to fit. Regardless if you are correct one could see how something like mistaking an item of power is far different than an entire section describing Seanchan culture. Honestly I thought you were just being hyperbolic when comparing it to Wot Wiki. If you truly believe that we are so far apart that there is little reason to continue debating the validity of each.

 

Edit: Read the little side box...I see where it says

Some historians, although not all, believe that the Oath Rod of the Aes Sedai may in fact be one of the original Nine Rods of Dominion mentioned in the ancient texts.

[muddasssir]

I am sorry but again there was a PoV of one of the ladies in black and she reminiscent that they thought that I'll accept the binding like sensible people. There was more to that quote by which she reinforces that she would have her lifespan restricted to 600 or 700 years taken with the fact that no Aes Sedai lives past 300 and in this very age we have Alivia and A one oof those wisdoms from Ebou dar as a matter of fact the whole knitting circle is pretty over age.