Resurection

[Shig]

I've been thinking about Moridin and how in my opinion after his reincarnation he's become even more awesome than before (although Ishamael was one bad ass mofo in his own right) which lead me to the question: Resurrection in WoT universe; How does it work?

 

From what we've seen the forsaken whom have been resurrected so they can continue to be useful to the Dark One, not so coincidentally also called 'The Lord of the Grave', have all been resurrected in new bodies which leads to my main question, how they get these bodies. I can see three possibilities:

 

1) The Dark One(or possibly Shaidar Haran or some other entity) rips the soul of one of the prisoner's used to make fade's blades and the dark one inserts the soul of whomever into the now empty husk.

 

2) Very similar to the first theory, except that instead of first removing the soul, the forsaken's soul is just inserted, but from what we've seen from the forsaken's PoV, none of them have been fighting for control of their bodies(which may be a possibility if they're sharing)

 

3) Through some unexplained method the Dark One creates a body in Shayol Ghul, where he is able to touch the world to a certain extent.

 

So what do you all reckon? What are your theories or do any of these theories especially stand out?

[Ferdawoon]

You can find these quotes from Robert Jordan, and more, at http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php thanks to Terez (and others).

 

INTERVIEW: Apr 20th, 2004

TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim)

WEEK 3 QUESTION (MATT HATCH)

There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

ROBERT JORDAN

There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately—that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death—but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul. Someone who has been killed with balefire in actuality died before the apparent time of his or her death, and thus the window of opportunity for the Dark One to secure that soul for transmigration is gone before the Dark One can know that the soul must be secured unless the amount of balefire used is very small. Remember that the more balefire is used, the further back the target's thread is burned out of the Pattern.

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

There are a few other limits and constraints, but I won't go into them here, since I may want to use them in the books, and I would rather they come as a surprise if I do.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 21st, 1998

TPOD Signing Report - John Novak (Paraphrased)

JOHN NOVAK

[is balefire the eternal death of the soul?]

ROBERT JORDAN

If someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the Wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back. There was a long line, so I didn't press.

FOOTNOTE

RJ expanded on these other 'circumstances' in the TOR Questions of the Week (see Q3).

[Simpleman2012]

The very phrase 'Wheel of Time' is derived from the Indian Civilisation, of Hinduism and Buddhism. Very much of such culture can be derived from the series by Robert Jordon itself.

 

So, how did resurrection came about?

 

Today, we realized that human consciousness came from electrical energy through neuroscience, at its infancy in our current stage of evolution, with so much more to discover. They are those 'electrical sparks' in our brains that create action, based upon what and how we react to environments.

 

This was proven by german neuroscience scientists whom had hooked up ordinary men to machines to make items move on a computer screen. It is only a matter of time before remote control - without cables - will be used and more than upon mere computer screens.

 

Our bodies with DNA are but only shells, as taught by buddhist beliefs. It is our consciousness that governs our actions, with free will given by our Creator.

 

When we die, our consciousness leaves our bodies and returns to the cosmos.

 

In the Wheel of Time series, the Dark One resurrects his favoured ones through the use of ready made bodies rather than the method employed with the Pattern which is to allow a time lapse and memories mercifully forgetten. This was shown with Lanfear's consiousness being implanted upon a human provided, with a new name Cyndane, to carry out her tasks ordained by the Dark One.

 

The Dark One in the Wheel of TIme series is named the Lord of Graves, thus his power,( in reality of lesser power than our Creator) to do as his wish with consciousness that flowed into his power, more so those that had pledged allegience to him.

 

Robert Jordan, as a writer, had been a warrior who had served in Vietnam, became an open minded man of the world journalist after the war, and had a science degree - physics to boot. Thus, much of that influence shows up in his writings. Before 911, even a police commissioner would laugh to tears that someone would fly a plane and crashed into an inhabited tower. In the 60s, IBM had laughed that a computer could fit into the palm of a hand.

 

Point is - our comprehension of our world is still at its infancy, and there is truly so much that we can learn before we dare to claim we humanity know it all. Robert Jordon, the intellectual, through his series, had push and prompt us to the edge, to find out more...

[Suttree]

It is our consciousness that governs our actions, with free will given by our Creator.

 

When we die, our consciousness leaves our bodies and returns to the cosmos.

 

Ah I've been wondering how that works. Glad to have a definitive answer.

[csnyder]

Definitive answers to the secrets of the cosmos are the best!

 

I was wondering if the former hosts of the Forsaken have to be channelers as well or is there absolute no genetic differences in channelers and non-channelers in the world. BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

[Suttree]

Definitive answers to the secrets of the cosmos are the best!

Epic.

 

I was wondering if the former hosts of the Forsaken have to be channelers as well or is there absolute no genetic differences in channelers and non-channelers in the world. BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

 

I could possibly be wrong but I believe that channeling is a soul trait. Although that would lead to a number of questions about how forkroot works...

 

Edit: As Ferdawoon linked above...

 

http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

[MasterAblar]

BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

 

Look at Ferdawoon's post a little above yours.

[yoniy0]

I was wondering if the former hosts of the Forsaken have to be channelers as well or is there absolute no genetic differences in channelers and non-channelers in the world. BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

I could possibly be wrong but I believe that channeling is a soul trait. Although that would lead to a number of questions about how forkroot works...

It is a property of the soul (RJ said so), but that doesn't mean it has no physical manifestation. The thinning of the channeling community in Randland after 3k years can be seen as evidence, and so can the fact that channelers tend to have channeling offspring (not always, but we do know several examples, such as Elayne, some Windfinders and Aviendha's future kids).

[Suttree]

I was wondering if the former hosts of the Forsaken have to be channelers as well or is there absolute no genetic differences in channelers and non-channelers in the world. BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

I could possibly be wrong but I believe that channeling is a soul trait. Although that would lead to a number of questions about how forkroot works...

It is a property of the soul (RJ said so), but that doesn't mean it has no physical manifestation. The thinning of the channeling community in Randland after 3k years can be seen as evidence, and so can the fact that channelers tend to have channeling offspring (not always, but we do know several examples, such as Elayne, some Windfinders and Aviendha's future kids).

 

Well in that case do those bodies the DO uses need to have that "physical manifestation"? RJ's quotes don't seem to suggest it but I guess that could be included under "suitable" when discussing bodies.

[Azrayne]

Possibly both? Maybe the soul can only reincarnate into a body with the genetic pre-requisites for channeling? Seems like the only way to make sense of the contradiction of channeling being connected to the soul, not the body (the 'gar's) and the thinning of channeling population/strength over 3000 years of gentling?

 

Alternatively, it could just be that the thinning of channeler numbers is only perceived by the Aes Sedai, and is in fact due to their changing recruitment practicing (as suggested by the number and strength of channelers found when Egwene opens testing up for everyone, and with the Wise Ones and Asha'man). Gotta remember that the tower was fairly exclusive about it's recruitment policies for a long time, somebody had to want to be tested enough to travel up to months to reach Tar Valon, or have the dubious luck of being discovered by an Aes Sedai.

 

Or more likely, it's just one of those things RJ didn't think of until the issue was raised by fans when he'd already written contradicting information. I'd imagine it's remarkably easy to contradict yourself on the minor details when writing a series with such a massive scope and detailed setting.

[yoniy0]

Well in that case do those bodies the DO uses need to have that "physical manifestation"? RJ's quotes don't seem to suggest it but I guess that could be included under "suitable" when discussing bodies.

That was my take of it - that it's all part of his requirements. I just want to emphasize that I didn't say it's only related to the soul, but that we know it is related to it.

 

Or more likely, it's just one of those things RJ didn't think of until the issue was raised by fans when he'd already written contradicting information. I'd imagine it's remarkably easy to contradict yourself on the minor details when writing a series with such a massive scope and detailed setting.

I completely agree.

 

Alternatively, it could just be that the thinning of channeler numbers is only perceived by the Aes Sedai, and is in fact due to their changing recruitment practicing

This is actually not the case; RJ confirmed this phenomenon:

For kcf, Tuon is stating a misbelief, really, a Seanchan urban folk tale, if you will. The Seanchan no longer know about Foretelling—though they are beginning to hear reports—but they have memories of the knowledge, you might say. There memories have gotten twisted into the widespread belief that any damane can tell your fortune. This belief is strengthened by the fact that some damane actually can Foretell, and more of them than on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean, a facet of sul'dam remaining in the breeding pool with the result that there are a higher percentage of women who potentially could channel among the Seanchan than on the Eastern side of the ocean. And also a higher percentage of many Talents.

[muddasssir]

I was wondering if the former hosts of the Forsaken have to be channelers as well or is there absolute no genetic differences in channelers and non-channelers in the world. BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

I could possibly be wrong but I believe that channeling is a soul trait. Although that would lead to a number of questions about how forkroot works...

It is a property of the soul (RJ said so), but that doesn't mean it has no physical manifestation. The thinning of the channeling community in Randland after 3k years can be seen as evidence, and so can the fact that channelers tend to have channeling offspring (not always, but we do know several examples, such as Elayne, some Windfinders and Aviendha's future kids).

I was wondering if the former hosts of the Forsaken have to be channelers as well or is there absolute no genetic differences in channelers and non-channelers in the world. BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

I could possibly be wrong but I believe that channeling is a soul trait. Although that would lead to a number of questions about how forkroot works...

It is a property of the soul (RJ said so), but that doesn't mean it has no physical manifestation. The thinning of the channeling community in Randland after 3k years can be seen as evidence, and so can the fact that channelers tend to have channeling offspring (not always, but we do know several examples, such as Elayne, some Windfinders and Aviendha's future kids).

 

I am sorry Yoniyo but haven't this been shown that. It was because other societies do not send their girls to be trained at WT I mean there is a large body of channelers present both in Aiel and SF

[Suttree]

I was wondering if the former hosts of the Forsaken have to be channelers as well or is there absolute no genetic differences in channelers and non-channelers in the world. BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

I could possibly be wrong but I believe that channeling is a soul trait. Although that would lead to a number of questions about how forkroot works...

It is a property of the soul (RJ said so), but that doesn't mean it has no physical manifestation. The thinning of the channeling community in Randland after 3k years can be seen as evidence, and so can the fact that channelers tend to have channeling offspring (not always, but we do know several examples, such as Elayne, some Windfinders and Aviendha's future kids).

I was wondering if the former hosts of the Forsaken have to be channelers as well or is there absolute no genetic differences in channelers and non-channelers in the world. BTW, where are all of these interview transcripts everyone keeps quoting from?

I could possibly be wrong but I believe that channeling is a soul trait. Although that would lead to a number of questions about how forkroot works...

It is a property of the soul (RJ said so), but that doesn't mean it has no physical manifestation. The thinning of the channeling community in Randland after 3k years can be seen as evidence, and so can the fact that channelers tend to have channeling offspring (not always, but we do know several examples, such as Elayne, some Windfinders and Aviendha's future kids).

 

I am sorry Yoniyo but haven't this been shown that. It was because other societies do not send their girls to be trained at WT I mean there is a large body of channelers present both in Aiel and SF

 

It has most definately been bred out of large portions of the populace. WOs send male channelers to the blight, WFs place them on an island or throw them overboard and we know how AS view the situation. The only group I can think of where this would not be the case is Shara. They sepcifically breed channelers there and consdiering the current state of that land it could be a twist for aMoL.

[yoniy0]

I am sorry Yoniyo but haven't this been shown that. It was because other societies do not send their girls to be trained at WT I mean there is a large body of channelers present both in Aiel and SF

That's definitely a contributor to the number of AS, but it hasn't changed since the WT was founded. What has changed is the fact that AS themselves tended not to have children (the male channeling population has been purged all over the map pretty equally, so that doesn't account for what happened in Randland proper, in comparison to the Waste, Seanchan and Shara. Although, one might note that Rand was pretty much at a marriageable age when he sparked, and he was pushed to it by trollocs. It's very likely that many male sparkers do, in fact, procreate prior to discovering their abilities).

 

But most importantly, see the quote I added in a later post. RJ confirmed that the property of channeling has been 'improved' out of the population.

[csnyder]

Agree with Azrayne's take of it as contradicting information. The soul and the body are juxtaposed, but I would never have noticed the relation of forkroot and channeling requiring the body to be a part of it - I love when a little science/logic works its way into fantasy (Moral: Don't laugh at science fiction!). A little contradiction adds to the complexity of the story though, I must say.

 

It makes much more sense for some of the Aes Sedai's take (I believe the White Ajah hypothesized this...) to be incorrect for it to stand that the soul and channeling are the only related factors. I forget, have we seen sul'dam affected by forkroot? Or for that matter damane? Perhaps a change in the body happens once someone acquires the Source for the first time? Like active mutations in one's genome, somewhat akin to radiation?

 

And - yet again! - Shara rears its ugly head as a threat to the forces on the Mainland. Something will inevitably balance the channelers in this war. Maybe Shara has been in the Dark since/before the Trolloc Wars (no Trolloc invasion, Trollocs had been there forever)?

[Heists]

I have another thought on this topic, more to RJs style and literary devices.

Most of the time when a character changes his name his role or identity is changed. Take the bible for example with all the apostles changing names and roles. Fain characterizes this well with his name changes and directions he goes.

But back to my point, the forsaken who are reborn are each given new names. I want to know why. Is RJ just showing that with the literal rebirth that each character will be different? The problem is that each has the same memories and identities, they are the same soul in a new body. So why do their names change? I have no read carefully enough recently to know whether they change dramatically personality wise. My only idea is that they had to be reborn for the plot, and RJ gave them a new identity and direction (the DOs new orders). Not sure where this is going but just a thought.

[Simpleman2012]

Consider why members of the Chosen had to be ressurected.

 

They are immortals, but yet, their mortal bodies can vaporize and 'die' when faced with superior firepower as balefire. To be caught in such situations would mean that they had failed.

 

But because they have mental/characteristics ability that appeals to the Dark One, they are given the chance to ressurect, but with a new name and identity to start all over again, with their consciousness intact to compete for the top job, to either reveal or not to reveal their identities to any of the forsaken groups, so long as they get the job done this time.

 

Fail again, and it may be over for them finally.

 

Even Moridin was not kept informed of those whom were resurrected till he either dig it out for himself, or they join him.

[yoniy0]

Even Moridin was not kept informed of those whom were resurrected till he either dig it out for himself, or they join him.

How do we know that?