What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

[Simpleman2012]

Egwene should be the 2nd favourite character in the series. She embodifies all the characteristics of humans - resilient and courageous. No matter how she was treated by everyone around her, being only an innkeeper's daughter and young, often painfully, she never gave up but gave back as good as she gets.

 

Not only that, she had shown wisdom as the chief of the petty squad tower, united them all, brought about necessary changes and done much more to further goals of at least womenhood, if not humanity itself. There can be no doubt over the fears and concerns of men whom could channel, even with the stains gone, for with such powers, should there be no tradition of responsibilities as the white tower has, another breaking will only awaits.

 

She is far from the extreme red ajahs, that just plainly hates men and not just channelers. She is reasonable and capable of reason. One thing about her is that she is not as matured as Moiraine, who could and willing to surrender control to Rand in order to advise that woolheaded luminox, something most men could accept and admire her (Moiraine) for it. But then, that is not something expected from the chief of the petty squad.

 

Still, Egwene has got spunk and reasonable.

[Suttree]

If only the head of "the greatest repository of knowledge in the world" had shown any interest in using the resources at her disposal to research strategies, eh? But no, it is just peachy if that person simply states, "Surely Rand can find a way to defeat the Dark One without breaking the Seals" and proceeds to use those resources to pursue her own political ends instead.

 

I know, I know, in fact she has, of course, been going to tremendous efforts to prepare for the Last Battle and guard against the Seanchan. Those preparations simply all happened off-screen. And, of course, there is no possibility that Rand might have made similar off-screen plans, because only Mary Sue can be absolved of seeming inaction by reference to such alleged off-screen actions.

 

Noting that there might just be a tiny bit of a double standard at play here does, of course, make me a mouth-breathing sexist. Just ask any gibbering fool with poor reading comprehension skills.

 

Sorry mate but did I imply any of that? Please don't start one of your odd sexist rants with me. You know I have never subscribed to that. I mean seriously, I say they should have cooperated with each other and this is the response I get?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Suttree

[randsc]

If only the head of "the greatest repository of knowledge in the world" had shown any interest in using the resources at her disposal to research strategies, eh? But no, it is just peachy if that person simply states, "Surely Rand can find a way to defeat the Dark One without breaking the Seals" and proceeds to use those resources to pursue her own political ends instead.

 

I know, I know, in fact she has, of course, been going to tremendous efforts to prepare for the Last Battle and guard against the Seanchan. Those preparations simply all happened off-screen. And, of course, there is no possibility that Rand might have made similar off-screen plans, because only Mary Sue can be absolved of seeming inaction by reference to such alleged off-screen actions.

 

Noting that there might just be a tiny bit of a double standard at play here does, of course, make me a mouth-breathing sexist. Just ask any gibbering fool with poor reading comprehension skills.

 

Sorry mate but did I imply any of that? Please don't start one of your odd sexist rants with me. You know I have never subscribed to that. I mean seriously, I say they should have cooperated with each other and this is the response I get?

 

Oh, I know that you don't subscribe to the idiotic sexism argument. But that other post was too dumb to justify the effort of a reply of its' own, so I threw it into this one. In general, my quoting in replies doesn't necessarily mean the entire post is a response to the quote; it means the quote contains something I wish to start off responding to.

 

As for the cooperation you advocate, you know that Egwene does no more of it than Rand.

 

Honestly, I don't really blame Egwene much for her reaction to Rand's plan. Not because her unthinking opposition is rational; it is not. But because she was clearly caught in the thrall of a ta'veren, and therefore isn't actually responsible for her actions. I even absolve her of any blame for the rather incredible lack of self-awareness evidenced in her, "Rand al'Thor, you will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!" statement, for the same reason.

 

We hear again and again that we don't know that Egwene hasn't taken steps to improve the Aes Sedai's rather pathetic abilities to counter the Seanchan or Shadowspawn, because it could have happened off-screen. And that we don't know that she hasn't set up a massive research effort to assist Rand in figuring out the problem of the seals, because it could have happened off-screen (even though we have on-screen evidence that she is using the Aes Sedai best suited for such an effort for other purposes). But in spite of this willingness to believe that Egwene is doing all the right things off-screen, there seems to be this enduring assumption that Rand does nothing offscreen, and is just going to show up and hope things go well.

 

Why is that?

Edited March 23, 2012 by randsc

[Suttree]

We hear again and again that we don't know that Egwene hasn't taken steps to improve the Aes Sedai's rather pathetic abilities to counter the Seanchan or Shadowspawn, because it could have happened off-screen. And that we don't know that she hasn't set up a massive research effort to assist Rand in figuring out the problem of the seals, because it could have happened off-screen (even though we have on-screen evidence that she is using the Aes Sedai best suited for such an effort for other purposes). But in spite of this willingness to believe that Egwene is doing all the right things off-screen, there seems to be this enduring assumption that Rand does nothing offscreen, and is just going to show up and hope things go well.

 

Why is that?

 

I actually tend to think based on their first conversation that Eggy has not started much if any research. After all she doesn't have the benefit of knowing what Min is working on. Any thing she could have put people to task on would be pretty much impossible to my mind. Now the Seanchan is a different matter. I can't imagine with her feelings towards them that there is not some plan in place.

 

In terms of Rand we know how he is going to get it all figured...

 

ToM

You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

Edited March 23, 2012 by Suttree

[XXX]

Didn't Egwene tell Rand when he asked about the rebel AS location that "he is told what he needs to know and he will not be told what he does not need to know". Perhaps now it is the same with the seals. I guess the Amyrlin does not like the shoe on the other foot.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander?

Edited March 23, 2012 by XXX47

[Elan Tedronai]

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defeat shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things.

 

Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. see ya taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

 

If that's how a general of battle is supposed to act then shaitan take his soul and leave us in peace

[Suttree]

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defeat shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things.

 

Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. see ya taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

Funny how you can make a post this good and turn right around with one equally bad in the Egwene/Elayne thread.

[MasterAblar]

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defeat shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things.

 

Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. see ya taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

 

If that's how a general of battle is supposed to act then shaitan take his soul and leave us in peace

 

Or, you know, maybe Rand actually had a reason for acting as he did and provoking Egwene.

 

Besides, even if Rand expected Egwene to act as she did, it doesn't mean she should have.

[Elan Tedronai]

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defeat shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things.

 

Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. see ya taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

Funny how you can make a post this good and turn right around with one equally bad in the Egwene/Elayne thread.

 

 

my posts are always good. that and i always like to ahem interject a bit of spiciness here and there ;)

 

you know me well enough by now suttree teehee

[Elan Tedronai]

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defeat shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things.

 

Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. see ya taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

 

If that's how a general of battle is supposed to act then shaitan take his soul and leave us in peace

 

Or, you know, maybe Rand actually had a reason for acting as he did and provoking Egwene.

 

Besides, even if Rand expected Egwene to act as she did, it doesn't mean she should have.

 

he had a reason to provoke? really? is this how the lord messiah zen buddha hare krishna dalai lama saviour of the world supposed to act? provoke his allies?

 

Oh how bad of egwene to react like that? Like any sane person with authority. She should have said yes my lord dragon. do as you please. do you want to sleep with me? i can have your babies too after the last battle etc etc

[MasterAblar]

he had a reason to provoke? really? is this how the lord messiah zen buddha hare krishna dalai lama saviour of the world supposed to act? provoke his allies?

 

If manipulating her into acting a certain way serves a greater purpose, a greater good, one that could not be achieved in another manner, then yes it's perfectly acceptable for him to provoke her. Does it sound like he acted as he did just for the heck of it? Of course he had reason, it's just not clear what it is because we've had exactly one pov from him in the epilogue, where he only mentioned that he meant for Egwene to act as she did without saying why. How can you judge his actions without knowing what his reasons for them were? Why do you think he acted as he did?

And the Aes Sedai have not exactly prooved to be allies so far in the story, and having two cirlces of 13 channelers shield him, when he isn't showing any sign of agressiveness, doesn't help either.

 

Oh how bad of egwene to react like that? Like any sane person with authority. She should have said yes my lord dragon. do as you please. do you want to sleep with me? i can have your babies too after the last battle etc etc

 

No, Egwene should have waited until the FoM to decide whether he needed to be opposed or not. Until then she should neither oppose him nor support him, because she knows nothing about the subject in question. Basically she should be acting as Darlin is, who you'll notice is not supporting Rand, but waiting to know his reasons for wanting to break the seals before deciding what he should do. Rand told Egwene they would talk at the FoM. She has the oppurtunity to avoid conflict with him, but instead she is choosing to oppose him. That's her mistake. She's acting without any knowledge, on the assumption that breaking the seals is a bad idea, inspite of the fact that others have not had a negative reaction to Rand's plan. Her initial reaction is understable, but with a month's time to reflect on the subject, she should have come to the conclusion that Rand may, just may, know something she does not.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Master Ablar

[muddasssir]

Ok people, Luckers is going to be really angry with me but so be it. I practically started the Egwene hate threads at DM as well as wotmania. I started the first thread with the title of,” characters you hate most on the side of light” and my vote was for Egwene, Gawyn and Faile.

 

I have given it a lot of thought and as I said before, I do try to be neutral. Than how come do I still hate Egwene? Well I will try to understand and answer this question and I do not believe that any of the “smart people” who love Egwene are going to change their opinion however well I present my case. This is just an attempt to make all of us unreasonable people who hate Egwene from stop doing it.

 

One last thing before I present my case. I absolutely love RJ and his writing style. That is what makes this story what it is. We love these characters, hate these characters, laugh with them, cry with them, laugh at them and even feel that they are laughing at us. Fred Saberhagen said about this series, a very gifted writer can make readers want to believe that what they are reading is true and makes him or her wish that this is true and it is actually happening somewhere and side of light is going to win. The famous line that all orbit paperbacks carried, “solid than a steel blade and glowing with true magic“, of course follows it. I completely agree with Fred here, this story does wake up that small child inside of me and want me to believe in something larger than ourselves and that power of good will prevail over evil.

 

All of us have followed this series and we have watched as each character evolved and grew. They took up their mantles and became as we see them. Why we hate Egwene? Well, if you have followed the story from start as I am sure, you would have. You will realize that egwene was this little chit of a girl, a little obnoxious brat who liked to butt in where she was not wanted and thought too highly of herself. I can quote a million examples and I am sure that someone would have already quoted them alredy and most of you know it by heart by now and it would serve no purpose except repeating. Nevertheless, if you take a look at the series you would see that has been pretty much the pattern. We have a character that is a pure waste of space and we see how it evolves into someone brilliant.

 

I mean look at Mat, for first three books, he was pathetic and at the current point in story I can safely say that he is one of the favorite characters of the series with more than 80% of the fans. I apologize to all people who cannot stand him but if they cannot stand him, I wonder why are still reading the series. It is not just Mat look at all the main characters take Nynaeve, she was an obnoxious little bitch too full of herself. Take Rand, way he grows into his role. Moiraine, we all love her now but she frustrated us no end with all her mysterious cool. This has been pretty much a norm with this story. People grow and evolve they change with time and become better. Then why do we not give the same benefit to Egwene?

 

Well, there are two parts to Egwene’s story, one is before she went to Salidar and second is when she becomes Amyrilin. This is the point where people started liking Egwene or to start voicing their liking of Egwene more vociferously as now they felt they have something to fight with. What she had done to that point can be generously called nothing to write home about. I mean look at all the main characters you will see that by the end of book 6 they have all come a long way and done stuff. While if you look at Egwene up to that point what she achieved is;

• Butting her head in where she was not wanted becoming a burden and flirting with Aram (tEotW)
  
• Becoming a Damane (tGH)
  
• Getting captured by BA having to be rescued by Mat and then treat him as shit (tDR)
  
• Doing nothing except twiddling her thumbs (tSR)
  
• Getting her rare side whipped at the hand of Lanfear and doing nothing (tFoH)
  
• Becoming an Amyrilin for no quality of her own and trying to manipulate Mat(LoC)
  

 

On the other hand, if you take a look at other main characters, Rand fights and defeats 4 or 5 forsaken takes Tear, gets Aiel to follow him, Conquers Andor and become a ruler. Perrin becomes a wolf brother, defeats trollocs in two rivers and fights at dumai’s well. Mat kills Couladin forms the band of red hand and becomes a general. Nynaeve takes on a forsaken beats her twice, captures her and heals stilling. While Egwene is earning ji and incurring toh. Even after that, you see other characters continue to grow while she does nothing and then all of sudden in book 10 RJ decided that it is high time that Egwene’s character should develop and voila, we have miracles happening right, left and center. Again, we have had this argument a million times. How she out maneuvers people, who literally have centuries of more experience than she does and how she does about faces.

 

Therefore, what happened is that she was not allowed to have the same space and time to grow and evolve that other had. However, she had to reach a certain point in story for all the arcs to merge and reach the conclusion. Therefore, her arc gets hurried and haphazard. Which in turn means that we have a character that has not been written well. They left her until too late and then did not grow her well. Well, it means writers are at fault but what happens is that we have refused to believe that these are characters in a book and that also a fantasy book. Therefore, we have these big fights defending and hating Egwene.

 

Having said that if you take a closer look you will find that all the people who are defending Egwene are the people who defend Tor in everything, may that be splits or delays. They have appointed themselves the guardian saints of Tor. I have no problem with them if they say that we like this character because writer wants us to like it. Problem is that they try to defend what cannot be defended. They try to raise an argument out of pure conjecture as someone posted she is preparing off screen. I mean seriously? How do you know that, I mean if this is the level of arguments I do not want to discuss that.

 

I guess I have antagonized everyone enough, so as far as I am concerned, here is the clincher. Everyone is setting great store in Aviendha’s vision that she had in glass columns. There is a scene in it where someone comes in and says White tower has fallen. If you look at the timeline, you will see it has to be within hundred years of last battle. Therefore, Egwene should be the Amyrilin and even if she was not she had twenty years of peace until the hostilities break out. What was she doing throughout this period if Seanchan were having a walk in a park of it? She is a sworn enemy of Seanchan. Why did not she do something about it? RJ and now BS have been telling us through out that she is an incompetent little bitch but you would just not listen to them.

[Thrasymachus]

Actually, I believe that she reflects on the fact that she's being manipulated by Rand into rallying the forces of the Light for him to face the Dark One at the Last Battle. She opposes his idea still, because it's still insanity from any kind of traditional perspective. Darlin is politically constrained from opposing Rand's plan too strongly. He owes his crown to Rand's conquering of and intervention in Tear. His letter reads very much as a monarch that absolutely does oppose what Rand intends, but who also knows what side his bread is buttered on. Egwene doesn't owe Rand for her position as the Amryllin Seat the way that Darlin owes Rand for his position as King of Tear. Notice also that the Wise Ones intend to oppose Rand in his plan to break the seals, and they're right there with him after his zen makeover and approve of him "accepting death." Yet they are still discomfited enough by the idea of breaking the seals that they intend to dissuade him from doing it, which in the end is all that Egwene is going to try to do as well. It's not like she's intending on imprisoning or killing him or stealing the seals if she can't stop him.

 

Rand's the one who made the mistake here. It would have cost him very little to spend the afternoon there explaining his plan, and telling Egwene that he wanted her to rally the nations for the Last Battle, instead of manipulating her into it. He could have asked for a private audience with her or a closed session of the Hall if he was afraid of giving away too much to his enemies by speaking in front of an open session of the Hall. How much time did he waste walking down from Dragonmount so Almen Bunt could pick some apples, or walking in through the gates and city of Tar Valon, when he could have simply Traveled there and saved the hours he could have spent doing things the right way? Egwene's opposition to Rand's "plan" is neither excessive nor unmeasured, and given everything she knows, not unjustified. And as far as Egwene knows, and from what Rand's told her, the full extent of Rand's "plan" is, "I'm gonna break the seals, then I'm gonna fight the Dark One." Real elaborate plan there, Dragon Reborn, it certainly covers all the bases and there's almost no chance of failure.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Thrasymachus

[Suttree]

so as far as I am concerned, here is the clincher. Everyone is setting great store in Aviendha’s vision that she had in glass columns. There is a scene in it where someone comes in and says White tower has fallen. If you look at the timeline, you will see it has to be within hundred years of last battle. Therefore, Egwene should be the Amyrilin and even if she was not she had twenty years of peace until the hostilities break out. What was she doing throughout this period if Seanchan were having a walk in a park of it? She is a sworn enemy of Seanchan. Why did not she do something about it?

 

Actually on the contrary, no one believes Avi's vision will actually come to pass. She was shown it so the proper steps could be taken to aver that future.

 

RJ and now BS have been telling us through out that she is an incompetent little bitch but you would just not listen to them.

 

Wow, here is the clincher. Quotes like this make it impossible to take the ant-Eggy crowd seriously at times. Just when other posters have been presenting well reasoned takes we get a post like the one above out of left field.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Suttree

[MasterAblar]

Actually, I believe that she reflects on the fact that she's being manipulated by Rand into rallying the forces of the Light for him to face the Dark One at the Last Battle.

 

What she says is: "Gawyn, he knows he shouldn't break those seals. A part of him does, at least. Perhaps that's why he told me- so I could gather resistance, so I could talk him out of it."

So no, she doesn't believe she's being manipulated into gathering the forces of the light for Rand, she believes he is asking her to stop him.

 

She opposes his idea still, because it's still insanity from any kind of traditional perspective.

 

And yet Elayne and Nyneave are not nearly as alarmed as she is about it. Nyneave doesn't even think there's a problem, as the seals are crumbling anyway.

 

Darlin is politically constrained from opposing Rand's plan too strongly. He owes his crown to Rand's conquering of and intervention in Tear. His letter reads very much as a monarch that absolutely does oppose what Rand intends, but who also knows what side his bread is buttered on.

 

We're not reading that letter the same way then. I think Darlin means exactly what he wrote. He's "not opposed to questioning the Lord Dragon", and he says that "the destruction of the seals should not be undertaken without careful discusssion". Like Egwene says, if Darlin was so worried about what Rand would say, he would have sent a messenger instead of a letter and she believes that Darlin, by sending this letter is essentially saying "I do not care if the Lord Dragon discovers what I have written. I stand by it."

 

Notice also that the Wise Ones intend to oppose Rand in his plan to break the seals, and they're right there with him after his zen makeover and approve of him "accepting death." Yet they are still discomfited enough by the idea of breaking the seals that they intend to dissuade him from doing it, which in the end is all that Egwene is going to try to do as well.

 

No, what the Wise Ones said is: "This is disturbing news, we will consult with him on this". They never said they were opposing him, though Egwene might well have taken it that way. Egwene is trying to dissuade him from breaking the seals, but she has the oppurtunity to talk to him and learn why he means to break the seals before creating a conflict, and she has not taken that oppurtunity.

 

It's not like she's intending on imprisoning or killing him or stealing the seals if she can't stop him.

 

I should hope so, though the third at least is not all that unthinkable. She would have to find some way to stop him. Egwene's thoughts are "She didn't want to think of what would happen if he forced her hand."

 

Rand's the one who made the mistake here. It would have cost him very little to spend the afternoon there explaining his plan, and telling Egwene that he wanted her to rally the nations for the Last Battle, instead of manipulating her into it. He could have asked for a private audience with her or a closed session of the Hall if he was afraid of giving away too much to his enemies by speaking in front of an open session of the Hall.

 

Rand told Nyneave he did what needed to be done. The question is why he needed to do this. Clearly he had a reason, and I doubt it was lack of time. He didn't randomly decide to piss off Egwene and the Aes Sedai. Depending on what the reason was, manipulation may well have been a better course than cooperation. We don't know what the reason was so how can we possibly decide whether it was wrong or not?

 

Egwene's opposition to Rand's "plan" is neither excessive nor unmeasured, and given everything she knows, not unjustified.

 

Egwene's opposition to Rand's plan is uneccessary at the moment. It may become neccessary depending on what happens at the FoM. What she knows is that other individuals have not been entirely opposed to Rand. What she knows is that Rand condition has drastically improved. What she knows is everything Nyneave has told her from her time being with Rand, including the crucial last bit before returning to the WT. All that, along with Egwene's complete lack of knowledge on the subject of the seals, should be more than enough for her to at least consider hearing Rand out before opposing, not least because, lets not forget, he's the Dragon Reborn and is the Dark One's enemy, and he is addressing what is pretty much is purpose in the grand scheme of the pattern an this meeting.

 

And as far as Egwene knows, and from what Rand's told her, the full extent of Rand's "plan" is, "I'm gonna break the seals, then I'm gonna fight the Dark One." Real elaborate plan there, Dragon Reborn, it certainly covers all the bases and there's almost no chance of failure.

 

"As far as Egwene knows", being the key point here. Perhaps she should wait and see what the full extent of Rand's plan is before deciding that it's a bad idea.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Suttree]

All that, along with Egwene's complete lack of knowledge on the subject of the seals, should be more than enough for her to at least consider hearing Rand out before opposing, not least because, lets not forget, he's the Dragon Reborn and is the Dark One's enemy, and he is addressing what is pretty much is purpose in the grand scheme of the pattern an this meeting.

 

To my mind, despite what Nyn, etc have said the verdict is still out on how much she knows/believes in relation to Rand's health. Regardless she most likely WILL listen to him at the FoM before opposing him so again the arguement contines to be circular.

[Thrasymachus]

Such ridiculous contortions of logic here. We should give Rand the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing, despite the fact that he doesn't explain it to anybody, and from his own points of view, we, as the more or less omniscient readers, know that he doesn't really have a plan any more in depth than, "This feels right, Min, plug the holes for me." On the other hand, we shouldn't give Egwene any benefit of the doubt that she'll listen to his reasons, and if they're good ones, back him in his plan. Yes, she's marshaling forces and preparing her case against his "plan." That's exactly what she should be doing, and it's the reason Rand picked this tack instead of the reasonable, diplomatic course, so she would marshal her forces, really his forces, for him. It's ridiculous to think her default position shouldn't be "No, not at all will we back this plan, not until we know the full extent of the reasons behind suggesting it, and possibly not even then." This isn't a plan about which she should be thinking, "You know, maybe, that might work, or might be necessary for something else to work, I want to hear more before I make up my mind." Everything Egwene and the Aes Sedai and anybody else who was raised in the Westlands and who knows anything at all about the Dark One, the seals and the Bore would tell them that this "plan," presented without any rationale or overarching strategy which incorporates it, should be feared and opposed, no matter who proposes it, let alone someone who could be insane.

 

And I'll say it again, the notion that the Dragon Reborn should be accommodated or supported in everything he thinks to do is as insane as he should be. Egewene's position is reasonable. And that doesn't mean that Perrin's, Nynaeve's or Elayne's positions are unreasonable, but they are far more trusting of Rand, which is a trust that Egwene, who is essentially the leader of the non-Seanchan forces of the Light, can't afford and has no reason to possess.

[MasterAblar]

All that, along with Egwene's complete lack of knowledge on the subject of the seals, should be more than enough for her to at least consider hearing Rand out before opposing, not least because, lets not forget, he's the Dragon Reborn and is the Dark One's enemy, and he is addressing what is pretty much is purpose in the grand scheme of the pattern an this meeting.

 

To my mind, despite what Nyn, etc have said the verdict is still out on how much she knows/believes in relation to Rand's health. Regardless she most likely WILL listen to him at the FoM before opposing him so again the arguement contines to be circular.

 

I agree, I don't think it's clear to her how sane he is. But certainly there's the posibility that he sane and therefore that he knows what he is doing. She has to consider that posibility.

 

I don't think she'll have much choice but to listen to him. But the issue for her and the WT is that she has made it know that she opposes him. And if she end's up being proven wrong in this, it looks pretty bad for the WT. And, considering she asked everyone to bring their armies with them, people might then ask her why she was so certain that Rand had to be opposed. And that's the point where it gets ackward because she actually knows pretty much nothing about the seals, which means her reason amounts to: it sounds like a really bad idea. Waiting until Rand explains himself before making her decision, would allow her to avoid this risk.

[MasterAblar]

We should give Rand the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing, despite the fact that he doesn't explain it to anybody, and from his own points of view, we, as the more or less omniscient readers, know that he doesn't really have a plan any more in depth than, "This feels right, Min, plug the holes for me."

 

The issue is about Egwene, not the readers.

 

On the other hand, we shouldn't give Egwene any benefit of the doubt that she'll listen to his reasons, and if they're good ones, back him in his plan. Yes, she's marshaling forces and preparing her case against his "plan."

 

She probably will listen to his reasons, but the problem is she's already gone and told everyone that he needs to be opposed, which means that if she's proven wrong, it looks bad for her and for the WT, and the people she's asked to bring their armies in order to oppose Rand probably won't be happy.

 

That's exactly what she should be doing, and it's the reason Rand picked this tack instead of the reasonable, diplomatic course, so she would marshal her forces, really his forces, for him.

 

Just because Rand expected her to act as she did, does not mean that's what she should have done. It just means Rand knows her well enough to know how she would act.

 

It's ridiculous to think her default position shouldn't be "No, not at all will we back this plan, not until we know the full extent of the reasons behind suggesting it, and possibly not even then." This isn't a plan about which she should be thinking, "You know, maybe, that might work, or might be necessary for something else to work, I want to hear more before I make up my mind."

 

Those are essentially the same positions, in that she is neither supporting nor opposing. But that is not Egwene's actual position on the matter in the books. Her position on the matter in the books is opposition. She has never considered, not once, that Rand may be right about the seals, or at least know something she does not.

 

Everything Egwene and the Aes Sedai and anybody else who was raised in the Westlands and who knows anything at all about the Dark One, the seals and the Bore would tell them that this "plan," presented without any rationale or overarching strategy which incorporates it, should be feared and opposed, no matter who proposes it, let alone someone who could be insane.

 

Which is why should wait until she hears his rationale and the strategy before deciding whether or not he needs to be opposed. She has nothing to lose by waiting before making her decision. And it does matter more if the Dragon Reborn proposes it because his role in the pattern is to fight the Dark One. If some random person on the street tells you something completely unreal you probably won't even consider the posibility of it being true, but if a well known scientist tells you the same thing, you might lend it more credence.

 

Also, he could be insane, which leaves open the posibility of him being sane, which means the things he said when he talked to Egwene, particularly the bit about having LTT's memories, become quite interesting.

 

And I'll say it again, the notion that the Dragon Reborn should be accommodated or supported in everything he thinks to do is as insane as he should be.

 

I never said otherwise. Rand definitely should not be supported, especially on such an important mattter, without giving good reasons to warrant support.

 

Egewene's position is reasonable. And that doesn't mean that Perrin's, Nynaeve's or Elayne's positions are unreasonable, but they are far more trusting of Rand, which is a trust that Egwene, who is essentially the leader of the non-Seanchan forces of the Light, can't afford and has no reason to possess.

 

Egwene's position is ill considered. It's not a question of trust, it's a question of acknowleging all posibilities and acting accordingly which she is failing to do.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Master Ablar

[Thrasymachus]

All of that assumes that Rand's actually gonna bother explaining his reasons behind thinking he has to break the seals, when there's no indication at all that he will to anybody but himself. Rand's "plan" here is not a plan, and the default position for it should be, "Hell no!" In the same way, the default position to the proposition that we should drop a nuclear bomb on Iran or Iraq should be "Hell no!" Rand's not gonna put himself in a position where he can be stopped or dissuaded from his plan, he's gonna force people to follow him, no matter what they think about it. He says as much to himself in his own POVs. It wouldn't surprise me in the least, nor would it be out of character, for Rand to reveal that he's already broken the seals before the meeting at the FoM takes place.

 

Egwene's simply not going to be put in a position where she'll have to change her mind. Rand won't allow it, because trying to change Egwene's mind means putting himself in a position where she'll have a chance to change his, it runs the risk that he'll fail to do so and deepen her opposition towards him. Rand's not gonna give anybody a chance to stop him from breaking the seals, which means he's not gonna give anybody a chance to change their minds about his plan. He's gonna have already broken the seals, reveal that they've all been inadvertently broken already, or have it set up in such a way that nobody could stop the seals from being broken. He's not going to the FoM to negotiate with Egwene or anybody else about whether or how to pull this off. He's going there to lay out his conditions for fighting the Dark One, and to mobilize his armies in such a way to give him enough time to pull off whatever he intends to do at Shayol Ghul.

 

And afterwards, I doubt that anybody's gonna really remember that Egwene initially opposed his plan. The fact that he will have pulled off winning the Last Battle, and the unexpected way it will be accomplished, will be more than enough to drive the early political maneuverings from everybody's minds, as will the need to organize and mobilize against the Seanchan.

[MasterAblar]

All of that assumes that Rand's actually gonna bother explaining his reasons behind thinking he has to break the seals, when there's no indication at all that he will to anybody but himself.

 

He told Egwene he would talk to her about it at the FoM. While we as readers know that he has no intention of changing his plans, Egwene has no reason to doubt him.

 

Rand's "plan" here is not a plan, and the default position for it should be, "Hell no!"

 

Egwene does not know that, and it isn't why she opposes him. She opposes him because she doesn't want the seals broken. That's her only reason.

 

In the same way, the default position to the proposition that we should drop a nuclear bomb on Iran or Iraq should be "Hell no!"

 

Dropping a nuclear bomb has pretty obvious and well known consequences. That's not the case with the seals. If Egwene accepts that Rand might be sane, then she must realise that he may know something about the seals that she does not. It does not mean he does know something that she does not, only that he might, and that posibility is important because it means that conflict might not be neccessary.

 

Rand's not gonna put himself in a position where he can be stopped or dissuaded from his plan, he's gonna force people to follow him, no matter what they think about it. He says as much to himself in his own POVs.

 

None of which Egwene is aware of.

 

It wouldn't surprise me in the least, nor would it be out of character, for Rand to reveal that he's already broken the seals before the meeting at the FoM takes place.

 

Which is something that Egwene is probably hoping he will not do.

 

Egwene's simply not going to be put in a position where she'll have to change her mind. Rand won't allow it, because trying to change Egwene's mind means putting himself in a position where she'll have a chance to change his, it runs the risk that he'll fail to do so and deepen her opposition towards him. Rand's not gonna give anybody a chance to stop him from breaking the seals, which means he's not gonna give anybody a chance to change their minds about his plan. He's gonna have already broken the seals, reveal that they've all been inadvertently broken already, or have it set up in such a way that nobody could stop the seals from being broken. He's not going to the FoM to negotiate with Egwene or anybody else about whether or how to pull this off. He's going there to lay out his conditions for fighting the Dark One, and to mobilize his armies in such a way to give him enough time to pull off whatever he intends to do at Shayol Ghul.

 

This is all quite possible of course, but again Egwene is not aware of any of this. As far as she knows Rand is coming to the FoM where she will have the chance to dissuade him of his plan. She does not know that he does not mean to negociate.

 

 

And afterwards, I doubt that anybody's gonna really remember that Egwene initially opposed his plan. The fact that he will have pulled off winning the Last Battle, and the unexpected way it will be accomplished, will be more than enough to drive the early political maneuverings from everybody's minds, as will the need to organize and mobilize against the Seanchan.

 

In the long term people will probably forget. But the immediate effect will be that the WT loses influence with the various nationg which will instead follow Rand's lead.

[Thrasymachus]

The consequences of breaking the seals are at least as well known as the consequences of dropping a nuclear bomb, and every bit as devastating. They know that it will free the Dark One to touch the Pattern as he has not done in over 3000 years. The Dark One can only loosely touch the Pattern now, with the three remaining seals intact, and already, the dead are walking, food that should be good for weeks is spoiling as soon as harvested, wardings are failing, the weather is changed and bleak. The idea of letting the Dark One touch the Pattern more strongly, even for a moment, should rightly send terror through those who consider it. Rand proposes breaking the seals for the same reasons someone would propose dropping a nuclear bomb: because they think they know something more that would happen as a result of it. But people who don't believe in that something more, or know nothing about it, would rightly oppose both ideas from the outset.

 

Egwene believes Rand is going to give her the chance to talk to him, not that he's going to be receptive to having his mind changed. In fact, she knows that's not likely, which is why she's going to such drastic measures as mobilizing the armies and leaders of his allies to oppose him. Nothing about what she's doing shows that she's cemented herself into the position of opposing him, merely that that's where she's starting, as any rational person should given what he proposes to do. On the other hand, Rand is quite explicit about not giving others the choice to follow him or not. He's manipulated people into taking the positions that he wants so they'll do the things he wants, and implies that he's willing to negotiate when he's not.

 

As for following Rand as opposed to the Tower, well, Rand's not supposed to survive the Last Battle. Nobody is planning for the Dragon's survival, not even Min, who insists that she'll insure it somehow. If the Dragon somehow survives, and continues to wish to lead the Westlands, no position Egwene could have taken on his plan would have prevented the Dragon's preeminence over the White Tower's.

[Elan Tedronai]

he had a reason to provoke? really? is this how the lord messiah zen buddha hare krishna dalai lama saviour of the world supposed to act? provoke his allies?

 

If manipulating her into acting a certain way serves a greater purpose, a greater good, one that could not be achieved in another manner, then yes it's perfectly acceptable for him to provoke her. Does it sound like he acted as he did just for the heck of it? Of course he had reason, it's just not clear what it is because we've had exactly one pov from him in the epilogue, where he only mentioned that he meant for Egwene to act as she did without saying why. How can you judge his actions without knowing what his reasons for them were? Why do you think he acted as he did?

And the Aes Sedai have not exactly prooved to be allies so far in the story, and having two cirlces of 13 channelers shield him, when he isn't showing any sign of agressiveness, doesn't help either.

 

Oh how bad of egwene to react like that? Like any sane person with authority. She should have said yes my lord dragon. do as you please. do you want to sleep with me? i can have your babies too after the last battle etc etc

 

No, Egwene should have waited until the FoM to decide whether he needed to be opposed or not. Until then she should neither oppose him nor support him, because she knows nothing about the subject in question. Basically she should be acting as Darlin is, who you'll notice is not supporting Rand, but waiting to know his reasons for wanting to break the seals before deciding what he should do. Rand told Egwene they would talk at the FoM. She has the oppurtunity to avoid conflict with him, but instead she is choosing to oppose him. That's her mistake. She's acting without any knowledge, on the assumption that breaking the seals is a bad idea, inspite of the fact that others have not had a negative reaction to Rand's plan. Her initial reaction is understable, but with a month's time to reflect on the subject, she should have come to the conclusion that Rand may, just may, know something she does not.

 

 

what in the world..... greater purpose? are you being thick here? or may be disingenious? he's not professor xavier. How can he possibly know what egwene's reactions are going to be? how can you assume he knows what egwene's reactions are going to be.

 

bloody hell.

 

i have never seen in my life people defending something so stupid as this. a man provokes someone and the explanation is because he knows better. what the hell? bububu he's the lord dragon. she should follow him with no questons asked. who the hell is darlin? jeez. you expect the leader of female chanelllers to simply nod and say yes do whatever you like. open the bore and start tarmon gaidon no questions asked no planning done.

 

Amazing. Lews therin telamon at the height of his power worked with female side of the hall during the power. yet the current clumsy 2.0 version of him provokes the current female leader.

 

 

If the lord dragon laid out his plan and egwene refused it then yeah you mght have a point. but he could not even do that. But i dont blame him coz he hasnt got any LMAO!

 

the truth of the matter is this whole situation has been screwed up the stupid authors. somewhere along the lines rand al thor had to fulfil elaida's foretelling. unfortunately brandon sanderson/harriet have done it stupidly.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Elan Tedronai

[XXX]

Such ridiculous contortions of logic here. We should give Rand the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing, despite the fact that he doesn't explain it to anybody, and from his own points of view, we, as the more or less omniscient readers, know that he doesn't really have a plan any more in depth than, "This feels right, Min, plug the holes for me." On the other hand, we shouldn't give Egwene any benefit of the doubt that she'll listen to his reasons, and if they're good ones, back him in his plan. Yes, she's marshaling forces and preparing her case against his "plan." That's exactly what she should be doing, and it's the reason Rand picked this tack instead of the reasonable, diplomatic course, so she would marshal her forces, really his forces, for him. It's ridiculous to think her default position shouldn't be "No, not at all will we back this plan, not until we know the full extent of the reasons behind suggesting it, and possibly not even then." This isn't a plan about which she should be thinking, "You know, maybe, that might work, or might be necessary for something else to work, I want to hear more before I make up my mind." Everything Egwene and the Aes Sedai and anybody else who was raised in the Westlands and who knows anything at all about the Dark One, the seals and the Bore would tell them that this "plan," presented without any rationale or overarching strategy which incorporates it, should be feared and opposed, no matter who proposes it, let alone someone who could be insane.

 

And I'll say it again, the notion that the Dragon Reborn should be accommodated or supported in everything he thinks to do is as insane as he should be. Egewene's position is reasonable. And that doesn't mean that Perrin's, Nynaeve's or Elayne's positions are unreasonable, but they are far more trusting of Rand, which is a trust that Egwene, who is essentially the leader of the non-Seanchan forces of the Light, can't afford and has no reason to possess.

 

Well Rand knows something about the seals as LTT put them in place while Egwene knows absolutely nothing about the seals.

 

And Egwene is not the leader of the non-seachan forces of the light. Did she appoint herself to that position? The AS has fallen far and they no longer have the same authority if they ever did as the leaders of Randland.

Edited March 24, 2012 by XXX47

[Elan Tedronai]

Such ridiculous contortions of logic here. We should give Rand the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's doing, despite the fact that he doesn't explain it to anybody, and from his own points of view, we, as the more or less omniscient readers, know that he doesn't really have a plan any more in depth than, "This feels right, Min, plug the holes for me." On the other hand, we shouldn't give Egwene any benefit of the doubt that she'll listen to his reasons, and if they're good ones, back him in his plan. Yes, she's marshaling forces and preparing her case against his "plan." That's exactly what she should be doing, and it's the reason Rand picked this tack instead of the reasonable, diplomatic course, so she would marshal her forces, really his forces, for him. It's ridiculous to think her default position shouldn't be "No, not at all will we back this plan, not until we know the full extent of the reasons behind suggesting it, and possibly not even then." This isn't a plan about which she should be thinking, "You know, maybe, that might work, or might be necessary for something else to work, I want to hear more before I make up my mind." Everything Egwene and the Aes Sedai and anybody else who was raised in the Westlands and who knows anything at all about the Dark One, the seals and the Bore would tell them that this "plan," presented without any rationale or overarching strategy which incorporates it, should be feared and opposed, no matter who proposes it, let alone someone who could be insane.

 

And I'll say it again, the notion that the Dragon Reborn should be accommodated or supported in everything he thinks to do is as insane as he should be. Egewene's position is reasonable. And that doesn't mean that Perrin's, Nynaeve's or Elayne's positions are unreasonable, but they are far more trusting of Rand, which is a trust that Egwene, who is essentially the leader of the non-Seanchan forces of the Light, can't afford and has no reason to possess.

 

Well Rand knows something about the seals as LTT put them in place while Egwene knows absolutely nothing about the seals.

 

so if he knows so much why didnt he say to egwene what his plan was to seal the bore?