Moiraine and the Seanchan

[Luckers]

Ok, so Min states that Rand would fail without a woman dead and gone, which through various point such as Min's consideration of Caraline, and her repeated statements about her viewings about Moiraine having failed, it's made clear that the real vision was that Rand would fail without Moiraine, whom Min thought was dead and gone.

 

In any case, this got me thinking--fail at what? The obvious answer is Tarmon Gai'don, and then it occurred to me that we actually have the inverse of that prophecy--specifically, Rand asks the Finns what he needs to do to succeed at Tarmon Gai'don, and they tell him that the 'north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one. The two must be as one.'

 

Of course its slim, but in that we potentially have a prophecy about how Rand may succeed, and one about how he may fail, and I wonder if they may not be different sides of the same coin. Consider that the Seanchan remain the unresolved element in this game, and that despite Aviendha's Rhuidean vision, there are indications of the Seanchan taking the right side of things--the Seanchan woman given Egwene the collar AND the bracelet dream, and the blurry face Seanchan woman with a sword whom I believe represents a Seanchan army relieving a shadowspawn siege on Tar Valon--and from there consider that one of the first things Moiraine gets told about the state of the world is that the Seanchan Empress could learn to channel.

 

"Mat's been too busy to keep track," Thom added. "He's been spending his time marrying the Empress of the Seanchan."

 

Moiraine blinked in surprise. "You did what?"

 

...

 

"Is that so?" Thom asked, amused. "Didn't we determine that your Tuon would be capable of channeling, should she decide to learn?"

 

It would also be deeply in Moiraine's temprement to seek to use that information--and there are several ways it could be used, but my favourite concept is that Moiraine will forcibly spark Fortuona [i once asked Brandon if that was possible, and Brandon replied 'almost anything is possible, under the right circumstances']--not that it would be that simple, Fortuona has a strong enough sense of duty to leash herself, but combine this information with Moiraine's skill at the great game, and her connections with Mat, and I could definately see this to being the first step to re-orienting the Empire into a more friendly direction.

 

Mind you this isn't ignoring Rand binding the Nine Moons, or the idea that Moiraine might be one of the three with Callandor, it's just adding to it.

[Byzantine279]

Agreed. Moiraine would probably be the best person to force Fortuona to channel, all it would take is putting her in a situation where channeling is likely the only way to save her life, we know that can spark someone who is a sparker and Fortuona, like all Seanchan Sul'dams, has by virtue of using the a'dam brought themselves to that point.

 

Her reasoning with Mat was that it was her choice not to channel and that is what separated her from damane, what would she do if she discovered that she has as little choice in it as they do?

 

I would argue she wouldn't attempt to leash herself from the start, simply because she is the only one left in the line of succession. If she is removed from the picture the Seanchan in Randland will fall apart into civil war as well, and she would not allow that to happen even if it meant betraying all she was taught.

[Luckers]

Agreed. Moiraine would probably be the best person to force Fortuona to channel, all it would take is putting her in a situation where channeling is likely the only way to save her life, we know that can spark someone who is a sparker and Fortuona, like all Seanchan Sul'dams, has by virtue of using the a'dam brought themselves to that point.

 

Her reasoning with Mat was that it was her choice not to channel and that is what separated her from damane, what would she do if she discovered that she has as little choice in it as they do?

 

I would argue she wouldn't attempt to leash herself from the start, simply because she is the only one left in the line of succession. If she is removed from the picture the Seanchan in Randland will fall apart into civil war as well, and she would not allow that to happen even if it meant betraying all she was taught.

 

Galgan remains in the line of succession, but that being said the argument could be made to Fortuona of the need for he to put off her own leashing for the good of the Empire--amongst other things, the damage of an Empress being leashed would be pretty nasty. I think Moiraine is precisely the right person to leverage Fortuona in this way--to bring out the spark and then force her to live unleashed and lead her Empire, thereby showing her that her thoughts about channelers are not accurate.

[Ferdawoon]

Well, was not the A'dam made because Hawkwing distrusted the female channelers?

Now that the Aes Sedai have their Oath rod, the Damane could be made to swear an oath on what to do and what not to do (which do not have to be the same as the normal Aes Sedai oaths). Thus Rand can "Bind" the nine moons too him, via the oath rod.

[Byzantine279]

The A'dam was actually completely disconnected from Hawkwing and was created by one channeler to control others in Seanchan. Of course, Hawkwing was being manipulated by one of the Forsaken, so any opinions he had after his "adviser" showed up are not to be trusted.

 

The Seanchan do not seem the type to trust the Oath rod, they certainly don't trust the Aes Sedai inability to lie or participate in battle.

 

@Luckers:

 

While Galgan is in the line, so are most of the High Blood present. None have enough power to take control without inviting a civil war, which is precisely what happened in Seanchan, Sermihage didn't kill every member of the High Blood, just everyone in the royal family. However I certainly agree that if anyone can make this point and convince Fortuona of what needs to be done it would be Moiraine.

[Majsju]

Simply put, No. Moiraines importance lies with Rand. But cute try.

[Maleshub]

In one of Perrin's earlier dreams, he saw a slender man on a throne with kings and queens bowing to him. For some reason, that had me thinking of Mat right away. If any of the three Taveren can pull an Arthur Hawkwing, it would be Mat. He remembers his face, is a better general, and can probably secure the whole Seanchan empire (on both sides of the ocean) for Fortuona and himself. And if the butcher's bill in TG claims Fortuona, Mat will be the undisputed ruler of Seanchan (after removing the opposition, of course).

[Eht Slat Meit]

My theory:

 

It will be Moiraine of the cunning mind and surpassing intellect who ultimately works out exactly what is needed for peace between WT and Seanchan without subjugation. This is absolutely critical to the end game, because Rand cannot win without the Seanchan, and if his allies are at war with them, they will not join him. There must be a resolution, and Moiraine will provide it. What exactly this might be is uncertain - perhaps a new future in which women who channel serve the empire as trusted servants rather than animals, or with damane as Egwene's lace-bound associates of the WT.

 

Based on the apparent mythological underpinnings between Moiraine and Mimir, I'm guessing that Moiraine will sacrifice herself yet again to achieve this end, either as the first servant of the Seanchan or an emissary between the Seanchan and WT.

[Luckers]

@Luckers:

 

While Galgan is in the line, so are most of the High Blood present. None have enough power to take control without inviting a civil war, which is precisely what happened in Seanchan, Sermihage didn't kill every member of the High Blood, just everyone in the royal family. However I certainly agree that if anyone can make this point and convince Fortuona of what needs to be done it would be Moiraine.

 

Galgan already held control of the Hailene, so if Fortuona fell I don't see him being challenged on this side of the ocean--the only one who could have was Suroth, and it's made pretty clear he had a more solid political footing than she did anyway. From there he simply faces the same issues as Fortuona.

 

Simply put, No. Moiraines importance lies with Rand. But cute try.

 

You think this wouldn't involve Rand? I'm not suggesting Moiraine ships off to Seanchan, I'm saying that when she rejoins Rand she's gonna settle her eyes on the Empire at some point.

[TheAngryDruid]

Agreed. Moiraine would probably be the best person to force Fortuona to channel, all it would take is putting her in a situation where channeling is likely the only way to save her life, we know that can spark someone who is a sparker and Fortuona, like all Seanchan Sul'dams, has by virtue of using the a'dam brought themselves to that point.

 

Her reasoning with Mat was that it was her choice not to channel and that is what separated her from damane, what would she do if she discovered that she has as little choice in it as they do?

 

I would argue she wouldn't attempt to leash herself from the start, simply because she is the only one left in the line of succession. If she is removed from the picture the Seanchan in Randland will fall apart into civil war as well, and she would not allow that to happen even if it meant betraying all she was taught.

 

Just for the sake of clarity, For(Tuon)a isn't really a sparker. Seanchan sparkers are damane. Sul'dams can learn to channel, but they do not have the spark in them, and won't channel on their own. Now, maybe Moiraine could make her do it somehow still, but Tuon isn't someone with the spark.

[Luckers]

Agreed. Moiraine would probably be the best person to force Fortuona to channel, all it would take is putting her in a situation where channeling is likely the only way to save her life, we know that can spark someone who is a sparker and Fortuona, like all Seanchan Sul'dams, has by virtue of using the a'dam brought themselves to that point.

 

Her reasoning with Mat was that it was her choice not to channel and that is what separated her from damane, what would she do if she discovered that she has as little choice in it as they do?

 

I would argue she wouldn't attempt to leash herself from the start, simply because she is the only one left in the line of succession. If she is removed from the picture the Seanchan in Randland will fall apart into civil war as well, and she would not allow that to happen even if it meant betraying all she was taught.

 

Just for the sake of clarity, For(Tuon)a isn't really a sparker. Seanchan sparkers are damane. Sul'dams can learn to channel, but they do not have the spark in them, and won't channel on their own. Now, maybe Moiraine could make her do it somehow still, but Tuon isn't someone with the spark.

 

She might be, you know. Fortuona is only twenty-one, and the spark can manifest as late as twenty-four, which is why the Seanchan continue testing even sul'dam until their twenty-fourth year (though Brandon said that he thinks Fortuona would likely be waived from this as Empress. He wasn't certain though, so maybe someone should ask Maria).

 

Alternatively, as I said, I asked Brandon if it was possible to forcibly spark a learner, and he said almost anything is possible in the right circumstances, inferring that yes it is possible.

[Majsju]

 

 

You think this wouldn't involve Rand? I'm not suggesting Moiraine ships off to Seanchan, I'm saying that when she rejoins Rand she's gonna settle her eyes on the Empire at some point.

 

Still, No.

[Byzantine279]

Agreed. Moiraine would probably be the best person to force Fortuona to channel, all it would take is putting her in a situation where channeling is likely the only way to save her life, we know that can spark someone who is a sparker and Fortuona, like all Seanchan Sul'dams, has by virtue of using the a'dam brought themselves to that point.

 

Her reasoning with Mat was that it was her choice not to channel and that is what separated her from damane, what would she do if she discovered that she has as little choice in it as they do?

 

I would argue she wouldn't attempt to leash herself from the start, simply because she is the only one left in the line of succession. If she is removed from the picture the Seanchan in Randland will fall apart into civil war as well, and she would not allow that to happen even if it meant betraying all she was taught.

 

Just for the sake of clarity, For(Tuon)a isn't really a sparker. Seanchan sparkers are damane. Sul'dams can learn to channel, but they do not have the spark in them, and won't channel on their own. Now, maybe Moiraine could make her do it somehow still, but Tuon isn't someone with the spark.

 

While she it is unlikely she is a sparker, she is at least a learner that has effectively learned how to channel and thus is on the cusp of using the One Power for the first time, as are the majority of Sul'dam. There is a reason they can detect channelers nearby, and its because they are only a half-step away from being one themselves.

[LeeM.Erickson]

I'd be surprised if members of the royal family were exempt from being tested with the a'dam. You'd think they'd want to make doubly sure that they didn't have any marath'damane hidden amongst anyone who might be in line for the Crystal Throne.

[Byzantine279]

Members were tested (Tuon mentions she was), it is a question if they would dare test the Empress herself, as Tuon has not reached the maximum age to spark and hence should still technically be tested.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Well, if she has been tested, then she isn't a sparker, correct? That's assuming the a'dam will still work on a sparker before the ability manifests itself. Aes Sedai can tell when people have the spark even if they haven't touched the Source yet, correct? Or am I totally off on that? I could have sworn when Moiraine found Egwene she hadn't channeled yet, but Moiraine could still tell she was a channeler, and that she was born with the spark.

[Rose]

I thought it was established that Tuon couldn't be a sparker. She knows she can wear the bracelet, which means she has been through the tests, and in that case, if she was a sparker, they would have found out. That being said, I am convinced that she will start channeling at some point soon, and it will be key to the role the Seanchan will play in the final battle. That Moiraine could be the one to trigger that seems a bit unlikely to me, but the theory is definitely interesting.

[Goldstar]

We knew that Tuon doesn't have the spark. She just can learn to channel, just like all the other sul'dam.

[kght22]

In one of Perrin's earlier dreams, he saw a slender man on a throne with kings and queens bowing to him. For some reason, that had me thinking of Mat right away. If any of the three Taveren can pull an Arthur Hawkwing, it would be Mat. He remembers his face, is a better general, and can probably secure the whole Seanchan empire (on both sides of the ocean) for Fortuona and himself. And if the butcher's bill in TG claims Fortuona, Mat will be the undisputed ruler of Seanchan (after removing the opposition, of course).

mat would just love that, he hates being considered a noble in the first place. i could see him trying to flee across the waste to avoid that fate.

[Majsju]

Thing is, we are talking about a story written by RJ here, the master of foreshadowing. And yet, there is absolutely nothing in the story that can be considered so much as a hint of foreshadowing that events could play out this way. Thereare however a multitude of things in the story that speaks dirctly and sgtrongly against it.

For example, Rands and Moiraines relation. Something that is central to the story, to the extent that we have been reminded of it repeatedly even during Moiraines long absense. Something that hardly can be said about the relation between Mat and Moiraine.

For example the mythology. Mats dealings with the finns has been more than just inspired by Norse religion. And while it has been re-written, most is easily recognised by those who are very familiar with the religion. Now, one event that stands out is Oden (Mat) sacrifying an eye to gain knowledge. Incidently, TGS and TOM made it extremely obvious that Rand is in desperate need of just that - knowledge.

For example Tuons personality and background. She has spent her entire life with the idea that channelers are basically just animals, and can under no circumstances be trusted. Now, the time she spent with Mat, and the Aes Sedai he had with him might have started to shake that belief a little. but what would her logical reaction be if an Aes Sedai forced her to start channeling? She would consider such action a confirmation that all her prejudices were correct. Not exactly the mindset you would want in someone you are trying to build an alliance with.

And the list goes on...

 

Tuon will start to channel, but it will be because she deicdes to do so. Maybe to save Mats life, she has worked with Aes Sedai damane, so there is an in-story possibility that she knows Healing.

[Luckers]

I thought it was established that Tuon couldn't be a sparker. She knows she can wear the bracelet, which means she has been through the tests, and in that case, if she was a sparker, they would have found out. That being said, I am convinced that she will start channeling at some point soon, and it will be key to the role the Seanchan will play in the final battle. That Moiraine could be the one to trigger that seems a bit unlikely to me, but the theory is definitely interesting.

 

 

We knew that Tuon doesn't have the spark. She just can learn to channel, just like all the other sul'dam.

 

No to both. As I stated in the original post, sul'dam continue to be tested up until their 24th year. Passing the test of the bracelet does not ensure you will fail the test of the collar. Fortuona is only 21, she may yet turn out to be a sparker (mind you, I doubt it. But it is possible).

 

Thing is, we are talking about a story written by RJ here, the master of foreshadowing. And yet, there is absolutely nothing in the story that can be considered so much as a hint of foreshadowing that events could play out this way. Thereare however a multitude of things in the story that speaks dirctly and sgtrongly against it.

 

You mean like having the first thing Moiraine hears about current events is that the Empress of Seanchan could channel? Or how bout having Moiraine be the one to ask "What does it meant that he ‘shall bind the nine moons to serve him’?" [interesting note in the exact phrasing there, Moiraine doesn't include the 'he' in the 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him' paraphrasal. Something clearly shall bind the nine moons to serve the Dragon... but will it actually be the Dragon himself?] And lets not forget the inverse prophecies--what Rand must do to succeed in Tarmon Gai'don is bring in the Seanchan, and the thing without which Rand would not succeed in Tarmon Gai'don being Moiraine.

 

I think we're covered on the foreshadowing should the plot follow this path. And an additional flippant point, it's about damn time a throne got fracked up for pissing off an Aes Sedai. Mind you most Aes Sedai aren't worth this point, but Moiraine...?

 

For example, Rands and Moiraines relation. Something that is central to the story, to the extent that we have been reminded of it repeatedly even during Moiraines long absense. Something that hardly can be said about the relation between Mat and Moiraine.

 

Yes, Rand and Moiraine's relationship is central to the story, but then its central to this theory as well. I don't understand this comment--after all who said anything about a relationship between Mat and Moiraine replacing the one between Rand and Moiraine? What I suggest is that Moiraine will rejoin Rand, and in the course of that choose the Empire as a target--but she'll still have plenty of time with Rand. Plenty and more.

 

For example the mythology. Mats dealings with the finns has been more than just inspired by Norse religion. And while it has been re-written, most is easily recognised by those who are very familiar with the religion. Now, one event that stands out is Oden (Mat) sacrifying an eye to gain knowledge. Incidently, TGS and TOM made it extremely obvious that Rand is in desperate need of just that - knowledge.

 

Again, I've no idea why you offer this as a point against the theory. It's true, no doubts... but I see no way in which its relevant.

 

For example Tuons personality and background. She has spent her entire life with the idea that channelers are basically just animals, and can under no circumstances be trusted. Now, the time she spent with Mat, and the Aes Sedai he had with him might have started to shake that belief a little. but what would her logical reaction be if an Aes Sedai forced her to start channeling? She would consider such action a confirmation that all her prejudices were correct. Not exactly the mindset you would want in someone you are trying to build an alliance with.

 

Indeed, and I covered this point--in fact I believe this would be the core of the drama. Fortuona has a strong enough sense of duty that she might well submit herself to leashing should she be forcibly sparked, or else kill herself to protect the Empire. But against that Moiraine is the sort of person with the wit to manipulate the situation--consider if she raises the issue of the price of an Empress leashed [in this time of crisis], or offered to not forcibly spark other sul'dam provided Fortuona turns the Empire toward Tarmon Gai'don [having perhaps set up a system to do so... She's Moiraine, nothing if not methodical], or so on.

 

Frankly, this is the point of the theory. Moiraine sparks Fortuona--then gives her the exact same choice she gave her damane--specifically, none but serve the Empire; that service being, remain as Empress despite being a marath'damane because if she doesn't then Moiraine will work her Game of Houses skills and use the event to tear the Empire apart. Conflicting duties are the only lever one would have with Fortuona, and I think Moiraine would realise that.

[Eht Slat Meit]

For example the mythology. Mats dealings with the finns has been more than just inspired by Norse religion. And while it has been re-written, most is easily recognised by those who are very familiar with the religion. Now, one event that stands out is Oden (Mat) sacrifying an eye to gain knowledge. Incidently, TGS and TOM made it extremely obvious that Rand is in desperate need of just that - knowledge.

 

Depending on just how far RJ decided to take those Norse parallels, there is a -lot- that can be read into Moiraine, simply based on what is known about Mat aka Odin. Such as...

 

1. Odin has a pair of ravens who go out into the world and bring him information. Ravens are the emblem of the Seanchan.

2. These ravens are named Thought and Memory, two abstracts which are the expertise of Moiraine as an Aes Sedai and Thom as a gleeman.

3. It could be gathered, either through association or the concept of fylgja (companion animal spirits) that Moiraine is somehow linked to the Seanchan.

Note - There is a war between pantheons, specifically the Aesir and the Vanir. The Aesir are those gods such as Odin, Tyr and Thor, while the Vanir represent another of the Nine Worlds, that of Vanaheimr. While there are other lesser cultures such as the Sharrans that -could- be represented, the Seanchan and the Mainlanders are the dominating forces.

4. As mentioned before, the there is Norse parallel for Mat's loss of his eye. The specific legend involves Odin travelling to Mimir's well to gain knowledge. Thought and knowledge are closely linked, and that "well" might be named for "Moiraine".

5. Mimir is taken as a hostage to seal a truce in the Aesir-Vanir war. This is a key point, as it is critical that the Seanchan be bound to Rand so that the nations be as one.

6. There is another of the Aesir closely linked to Mimir, a fellow named Hoenir. While he possesses some status, he defers to Mimir in all things, and he accompanies her as a hostage to the Vanir. Thom is Moiraine's warder.

7. In the aftermath of sealing this truce, Hoenir takes Mimir's place at a Thing (a type of grand meeting between lawspeakers and leaders). The Field of Merrilor could be seen as a parallel to that Thing, with Thom acting to secure whatever bargain has been made.

8. Due to Hoenir's deference to Mimir at a time when he should be representing, the Vanir are convinced they have been cheated and decapitate Mimir. This could be presented a few ways... execution, being made damane, loss of the angreal that gives her what power she has.

 

Anyway, that's just the basics, and part of why I find that particular mythology so fascinating. It makes me wonder just how much of that framework RJ borrowed to craft his story around. At the very least, I think it presents a lot of insight into Moiraine's possible fate.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Ok, I have a few questions now about the a'dam, maybe you guys can help.

 

1. So, putting the collar on someone born with the spark will do nothing until they've begun to channel, right? Otherwise, what would be the purpose of testing someone more than once?

2. Similarly, putting the bracelet on someone born with the spark shouldn't allow them to control a damane either, right? Since the normal sul'dam are people who can learn, not have the spark. Obviously, once somebody can already channel they can use the a'dam, since we've seen Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene use them.

3. We know that sul'dam, who can learn to channel, can be held by an a'dam collar. But this must be only after they've used the a'dam after a period of time, or they'd all be taken for marath'damane initially. I think this makes sense. It seems the longer you use an a'dam, which is basically forced linking, it almost seems like bringing you to the cusp of being able to channel. Thus the more advanced sul'dam can even see the weaves.

 

I'm also assuming sul'dam don't slow, since they aren't actually channeling, right?

[Luckers]

Ok, I have a few questions now about the a'dam, maybe you guys can help.

 

1. So, putting the collar on someone born with the spark will do nothing until they've begun to channel, right? Otherwise, what would be the purpose of testing someone more than once?

 

Yes, if you place a collar on a sparker before they've sparked, it will do nothing. Same goes with a Learner, though if they are sul'dam use of the bracelet over time will bring them very close to sparking, to the point that the collar will in fact hold them. This would take years, though.

 

Ok, I have a few questions now about the a'dam, maybe you guys can help.

 

1. So, putting the collar on someone born with the spark will do nothing until they've begun to channel, right? Otherwise, what would be the purpose of testing someone more than once?

2. Similarly, putting the bracelet on someone born with the spark shouldn't allow them to control a damane either, right? Since the normal sul'dam are people who can learn, not have the spark. Obviously, once somebody can already channel they can use the a'dam, since we've seen Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene use them.

3. We know that sul'dam, who can learn to channel, can be held by an a'dam collar. But this must be only after they've used the a'dam after a period of time, or they'd all be taken for marath'damane initially. I think this makes sense. It seems the longer you use an a'dam, which is basically forced linking, it almost seems like bringing you to the cusp of being able to channel. Thus the more advanced sul'dam can even see the weaves.

 

I'm also assuming sul'dam don't slow, since they aren't actually channeling, right?

Ok, I have a few questions now about the a'dam, maybe you guys can help.

 

2. Similarly, putting the bracelet on someone born with the spark shouldn't allow them to control a damane either, right? Since the normal sul'dam are people who can learn, not have the spark. Obviously, once somebody can already channel they can use the a'dam, since we've seen Nynaeve, Elayne, and Egwene use them.

 

 

This is uncertain, but it seems likely that all sparkers would test positive for sul'dam. Of course they do the sul'dam test after the damane test, and it may well be that they wait for a certain maturity before testing someone to be a sul'dam, given the role they play--certainly it'd be a little wierd that no one noticed that every girl who did not test positive as damane at 12, tested positive as a sul'dam. But given the employment of pain in a sul'dam's job I could see them waiting until like, 18 or 19, to test the bracelet, and as such the few girls who lated tested positive for the collar would not have seemed that weird.

 

Ok, I have a few questions now about the a'dam, maybe you guys can help.

 

3. We know that sul'dam, who can learn to channel, can be held by an a'dam collar. But this must be only after they've used the a'dam after a period of time, or they'd all be taken for marath'damane initially. I think this makes sense. It seems the longer you use an a'dam, which is basically forced linking, it almost seems like bringing you to the cusp of being able to channel. Thus the more advanced sul'dam can even see the weaves.

 

 

Yes, and this is stated in the series. In fact it likely takes at least ten years to come to this point--as such, it is very unlikely that Fortuona could either see the flows [without wearing the bracelet of the woman channeling the flows] or be held by an a'dam.

 

I'm also assuming sul'dam don't slow, since they aren't actually channeling, right?

 

Indeed, RJ stated that sul'dam do not slow.

[Wantanswers]

I agree with Luckers that Tuon possibly is a sparker; she might even have a block. Nevertheless I don't agree with his reasoning.

Tuon had to ask to be tested for suldam and her mother gave permission by not objecting.

Why did Tuon have to ask, and why did she need her mothers approval, if she was going to be tested anyway. For me there is only one answer possible:

Members of the imperial family (and perhaps the high blood) are exempted from the testing.

 

We also don't have any information that Tuon was ever tested with the collar.