What's with this Nae'blis thing, anyway

[Bob T Dwarf]

The books make out that Nae'blis is some kind of BIG DEAL!

 

Lots of power, Power, and POWER. Priviledges. Perks. Bowing and scraping all around. The job ( or at least title ) that all the Baddies want. The title they're willing to kill anyone and do anything to achieve.

 

Let's look at what being Nae'blis does for you.

 

At the beginning of the books, Ba'alzamon is the de facto Nae'blis. But he has to get burned to a crisp - twice - and finally stabbed through the heart in Tel'aran'rhiod so that he requires a whole new body before he officially becomes Nae'blis.

 

While just the de facto Nae'blis he issues strict orders that Rand is to be kept alive. NOBODY is allowed to kill him except Ba'alzy hisveryownsef.

 

So, of course, Shaidar Haran, the Hand of the Dark, Shaitan's shadow avatar, immediately goes outside the chain-of-command and sets Jachim Carridin the task of finding and killing Rand yesterday. Promising to kill and then actually following through on killing one member of Carridin's family for each month that Rand remains alive.

 

Once Moridin is out-of-the-jar and actually officially Nae'blis, the standing orders are reinforced - nobody is to harm Rand.

 

So, of course, Carridin is still trying to find and kill Rand because he's running out of family and time, then Sammael tries to kill Rand, then Mesaana arranges to have him kidnapped, stuffed into a box, and beaten regularly until the guy everybody loves to hate Mazrim Taim and his Asha'man with a bunch of help from Perrin and the Aiel including Wise Ones rescue him, then several people, including Demandred, Taim, and somebody obviously masquerading as Moridin try to get four of the Asha'man to assassinate him in the Sun Palace, Osan'gar/Dashiva thinks this is such a wonderful idea he gets in on the act, too, then a heavily disguised Aran'gar tries to get Slayer to kill Rand and Min at an Inn in Far Madding, then, everybody but Mesaana and Moridin take a swing at him during the Cleansing, then somebody masquerading as the long-dead Sammael tries to get 100,000 Trollocs and Myrddraal to kill him at the Manor outside Tear, then Semirhage tries to capture or kill him, and finally Shaidar Haran again intervenes to assist Semirhage. All of which goes directly against the orders from the supposedly nearly all-powerful Nae'blis.

 

So, exactly what is it that becoming Nae'blis does for the recipient that anyone sane or not might want?

[Arath Faringal]

It's just a carrot dangling in front of each Forsaken nose. All of the Forsaken went over to the Shadow for personal gain and power, and this mythical Nae'blis position represents the ultimate, if rather vague, power. Keeps them all in a greedy, power hungry line.

 

Just chalk up another one for the Father of Lies.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's just a carrot dangling in front of each Forsaken nose. All of the Forsaken went over to the Shadow for personal gain and power, and this mythical Nae'blis position represents the ultimate, if rather vague, power. Keeps them all in a greedy, power hungry line.

 

Just chalk up another one for the Father of Lies.

 

As many who have been around here will tell you I'm President of the These Guys Are Really Stoopid Club. But, any of them actually wanting to be Nae'blis sets a completely new low on the stupidity meter, bending the needle at the bottom peg almost in two.

 

Are we seriously supposed to believe that any of them really wants this job given how they've all worked so hard to make Moridin fail at it?

 

It's only a carrot if it looks like a carrot, smells like a carrot, and tastes like a carrot. This has putrid, rotten onion written all over it. This really does exceed the bounds of dumb evil. This is Wile E. Coyote, Acme Anvil in hand not yet realizing that he's ten feet beyond any support whatsoever with the canyon bottom a thousand feet below.

 

IOW, it's just plain silly, not at all menacing, and totally foolish.

[Sharaman]

Translation from Arabic. naib = Leader Iblis = Another name for the GLoD aka Shaitan.

Naib'lis = leader of Iblis' forces.

[Danieljoe1]

Maybe you forgot that Nae'blis is the only one who is granted access to The True source. Where the One source is split between Saidin and Saidar, the True Power gives you access to both. Ill dig deeper into the books when I have more sleep behind me, insomnia is a .......... Ill leave that to you to finish. I do remember thats what the AS out of the age of legends were after when they bored into the DO's prison. Moridin has the black flecks going across his eyes from using it. On book 5 of my reading (again) of the series, and its been more than a few years since I have read them all.

[Ananta]

Maybe you forgot that Nae'blis is the only one who is granted access to The True source. Where the One source is split between Saidin and Saidar, the True Power gives you access to both. Ill dig deeper into the books when I have more sleep behind me, insomnia is a .......... Ill leave that to you to finish. I do remember thats what the AS out of the age of legends were after when they bored into the DO's prison. Moridin has the black flecks going across his eyes from using it. On book 5 of my reading (again) of the series, and its been more than a few years since I have read them all.

 

Pretty sure other people can get access to True Power, too.

 

And if I recall correctly, one of the Forsaken said that even if she/he had access to TP she/he wouldn't use it, because using it would be insanely stupid.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Pretty sure other people can get access to True Power, too.

 

And if I recall correctly, one of the Forsaken said that even if she/he had access to TP she/he wouldn't use it, because using it would be insanely stupid.

 

Yup. In the prologue of one of the last two books Moridin makes a big deal out of granting Graendal access to some TP. Not total access, but access nonetheless.

 

And, yes again. Think back to Ba'alzamon in the beginning. Even if Rand hadn't eventually killed him he would have needed a body replacement soon anyway. His constant use of True Power was consuming him from the inside out. Over time, it's as dangerous to the user as to anyone or anything it's used against.

 

But, as I said, IMO These Guys Are Stoopid, so somebody other than Moridin might want to use it anyway.

[kght22]

Pretty sure other people can get access to True Power, too.

 

And if I recall correctly, one of the Forsaken said that even if she/he had access to TP she/he wouldn't use it, because using it would be insanely stupid.

 

Yup. In the prologue of one of the last two books Moridin makes a big deal out of granting Graendal access to some TP. Not total access, but access nonetheless.

 

And, yes again. Think back to Ba'alzamon in the beginning. Even if Rand hadn't eventually killed him he would have needed a body replacement soon anyway. His constant use of True Power was consuming him from the inside out. Over time, it's as dangerous to the user as to anyone or anything it's used against.

 

But, as I said, IMO These Guys Are Stoopid, so somebody other than Moridin might want to use it anyway.

i don't know that moridin is so stupid as all that, he is aware that if the dark one wins there will be nothing to rule over. he just wants it all over with once and for all. the other forsaken are clearly fools, but i think moridin is well aware of his fate whether he wins or looses, and would prefer to win so that he wont have to fight again in another life.

[Bob T Dwarf]

i don't know that moridin is so stupid as all that, he is aware that if the dark one wins there will be nothing to rule over. he just wants it all over with once and for all. the other forsaken are clearly fools, but i think moridin is well aware of his fate whether he wins or looses, and would prefer to win so that he wont have to fight again in another life.

 

Moridin is definitely a nihilist. I suppose that as long as he figured the body would last until the Last Battle was won for the Dark Lord that was good enough.

 

But that still doesn't make him any smarter than any of the others. They are all dumber than a box of rocks.

[kght22]

i don't know that moridin is so stupid as all that, he is aware that if the dark one wins there will be nothing to rule over. he just wants it all over with once and for all. the other forsaken are clearly fools, but i think moridin is well aware of his fate whether he wins or looses, and would prefer to win so that he wont have to fight again in another life.

 

Moridin is definitely a nihilist. I suppose that as long as he figured the body would last until the Last Battle was won for the Dark Lord that was good enough.

 

But that still doesn't make him any smarter than any of the others. They are all dumber than a box of rocks.

i think you are missing the point, if you view moridin as a nihilist you need to look up what nihilism is. moridin clearly believes in something. he believes in the light and the dark, and as essentially an individual with a phd in philosophy he is also well aware of the torture his soul goes through in every turning of the wheel. there are even likely turnings of the wheel where he is fighting for the light and lt/the dragon/rand are fighting for the shadow. in this iteration he made a conscious choice to fight for the shadow because he just wanted it all to end. the reason hasn't been specified, but you can guess it is because he wants to end the torture of his soul, much as rand nearly destroys the world during the vog scene.

[Bob T Dwarf]

i don't know that moridin is so stupid as all that, he is aware that if the dark one wins there will be nothing to rule over. he just wants it all over with once and for all. the other forsaken are clearly fools, but i think moridin is well aware of his fate whether he wins or looses, and would prefer to win so that he wont have to fight again in another life.

 

Moridin is definitely a nihilist. I suppose that as long as he figured the body would last until the Last Battle was won for the Dark Lord that was good enough.

 

But that still doesn't make him any smarter than any of the others. They are all dumber than a box of rocks.

i think you are missing the point, if you view moridin as a nihilist you need to look up what nihilism is. moridin clearly believes in something. he believes in the light and the dark, and as essentially an individual with a phd in philosophy he is also well aware of the torture his soul goes through in every turning of the wheel. there are even likely turnings of the wheel where he is fighting for the light and lt/the dragon/rand are fighting for the shadow. in this iteration he made a conscious choice to fight for the shadow because he just wanted it all to end. the reason hasn't been specified, but you can guess it is because he wants to end the torture of his soul, much as rand nearly destroys the world during the vog scene.

 

ni·hil·ism   [nahy-uh-liz-uhm, nee-] Show IPA

noun

1.

total rejection of established laws and institutions.

2.

anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.

3.

total and absolute destructiveness, especially toward the world at large and including oneself: the power-mad nihilism that marked Hitler's last years.

4.

Philosophy .

a.

an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth.

b.

nothingness or nonexistence.

 

4b is exactly what Moridin is shooting for. His method for accomplishing it is definition number 1, supplemented by definitions 2 and 3.

 

As a philosopher, he rejects definition 4a, holding that his beliefs in 1, 2, 3, and 4b are entirely rational, objective, and truthful. That's what makes him mad as Alice's Hatter.

[amg]

Idk. Morridin would have to be at least a partial nutcase to want to use tthe True Power but Nae'blis is the highest goal for the servants of the Shadow. It'd be like being the head coach of an awesome football team, except you have way more power, everyone has to listen to you that is under you, and ultimatly you're working for Evil Incarnate simply for the chance to live to see his victory at the price of the whole world, everyone in it, and your humanity.

Just my humble opinion, any objections/debates are as always welcomed.

[dazparra]

The last two books have SHOWN that being Nae'blis is something with all the forsaken now being forced to submit to Moridin's authority. Each of them performing tasks at his orders and following his lead.

 

Moridin is now ordering all the other chosen about like a pack of dogs... and anyone who fails him, gets a visit from shadar haran to kick their arse.

 

Not to mention as said by others, that the Nae'blis gets access (full access) to the true power.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The last two books have SHOWN that being Nae'blis is something with all the forsaken now being forced to submit to Moridin's authority. Each of them performing tasks at his orders and following his lead.

 

Moridin is now ordering all the other chosen about like a pack of dogs... and anyone who fails him, gets a visit from shadar haran to kick their arse.

 

Not to mention as said by others, that the Nae'blis gets access (full access) to the true power.

 

There's the pretense that he is pulling all the strings and then there's the reality that everybody, including Shaidar Haran, is still following their own agenda.

 

There's the illusion that True Power is a WONDERFUL THING, and theres the reality that is consumes the user and utterly destroys them in about as nasty a fashion as can be envisioned.

 

Graendal got the big ATTA GIRL! Was granted access to TP. Was shown behind the curtain and allowed to observe the Wonderful Wizard of Oz at work. She still was caught in the midst of trying to scrarper-off and find a hidey-hole until everything had blown over.

 

It's all a Carney-con that any average 10 year-old could see through.

[msbee]

Ok, so who's had an actual go at getting rid of Moridin since he's become the Big Cheese?

Rand, yeah, he's trying to get rid of them all

and...?

 

Now, lets take a look at a 'normal' FS.

All the other FS are trying to eliminate the opposition,

Rand is trying to eliminate them one by one,

and, the DO has dubious intentions towards them.

How about this quote from 6LOC ch 6 - Shaidar Haran supervising Semirhage's questioning of Cabriana Mecandes - consider it while thinking on what happens to Semi when she tries to collar Rand (TGS ch 22)

 

If the Great Lord meant to make al’Thor Nae’blis, she herself would kneel to him – and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait. There would always be other patients to amuse her in the meantime. What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheran player, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent’s High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed.

 

If you're the DO's favourite, you have a far better chance

You'd still have to be warped in the first place though

 

Edit - typo

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ok, so who's had an actual go at getting rid of Moridin since he's become the Big Cheese?

Rand, yeah, he's trying to get rid of them all

and...?

 

Now, lets take a look at a 'normal' FS.

All the other FS are trying to eliminate the opposition,

Rand is trying to eliminate them one by one,

and, the DO has dubious intentions towards them.

How about this quote from 6LOC ch 6 - Shaidar Haran supervising Semirhage's questioning of Cabriana Mecandes - consider it while thinking on what happens to Semi when she tries to collar Rand (TGS ch 22)

 

If the Great Lord meant to make al’Thor Nae’blis, she herself would kneel to him – and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait. There would always be other patients to amuse her in the meantime. What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheran player, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent’s High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed.

 

If you're the DO's favourite, you have a far better chance

You'd still have to be warped in the first place though

 

Edit - typo

 

They're all ( just barely ) smart enough to know that they aren't gonna win this Tarmon Gaidon thing by themselves. For now, they're doing what they can towards their own agendas while waiting for the Fuss'n and Feudin' to begin. They all figure that, with luck, the Light will eliminate a lot of their competition for them. Then they just have to take out whomever is left when the dust settles.

 

So, for now, nobody is trying to take Moridin out.

 

About the only place where their thinking is even about half right is that Moridin isn't important enough yet to worry about in any specific fashion.

 

They do still retain a semblance of contact with reality despite the huge amount of wishful thinking they all indulge in.

 

So far, Moridin is the only one who has been silly enough to say, "Gather round, kiddies, we're all gonna paint this BIG ole target on my back so that all of you will know just where to aim when the fighting really starts."

[msbee]

When Graendal meets Moridin in TOM she notes that he is communicating directly with the DO (or SH).

She doesn't try anything because she's scared - what else can he do? How much does he know? How far can she push it?

In that situation I'd probably get all ambitious just to get rid of the uncertainty

Apart from the perks of the TP, it's the unknown, the kudos and the access to the power they want.

I disagree with your statement that they don't think he's important enough to challenge: he's got two ex-FS following him around wearing his livery, he has direct access to the DO, he has the use of TP, and he has a reputation for being unpredictable and mad.

They're not stupid, just one-tracked, blinded by greed and selfishness and scared enough to be very, very careful when dealing with Moridin

 

As for anyone else though...

[amg]

Hmm. That is true. So being Nae'blis is really about being the best of the worst. The baddest of the bad. All so you don't have to get your hands dirty. Though, if it were me, I'd want to be on the side of the Light, right under Rand, just saying, he can be pretty awesome himself....

[Bob T Dwarf]

Hmm. That is true. So being Nae'blis is really about being the best of the worst. The baddest of the bad. All so you don't have to get your hands dirty. Though, if it were me, I'd want to be on the side of the Light, right under Rand, just saying, he can be pretty awesome himself....

 

What they want more than anything is immortality. Just below that, they want the power to do anything they want at any time to anyone or anything.

 

They're stupid in believing that the DO will grant them any such thing. They are especially stupid if they believe that the DO will leave anything in existence if it ever wins.

 

Moridin, at least, has figured out that the DO will destroy everything if it wins. All will be chaos. What he can't seem to figure out is that every Turning of the Wheel gives him the opportunity to make different choices. His life doesn't always have to be ugly and futile.

[amg]

Hmm. That is true. So being Nae'blis is really about being the best of the worst. The baddest of the bad. All so you don't have to get your hands dirty. Though, if it were me, I'd want to be on the side of the Light, right under Rand, just saying, he can be pretty awesome himself....

 

What they want more than anything is immortality. Just below that, they want the power to do anything they want at any time to anyone or anything.

 

They're stupid in believing that the DO will grant them any such thing. They are especially stupid if they believe that the DO will leave anything in existence if it ever wins.

 

Moridin, at least, has figured out that the DO will destroy everything if it wins. All will be chaos. What he can't seem to figure out is that every Turning of the Wheel gives him the opportunity to make different choices. His life doesn't always have to be ugly and futile.

Makes sense to me. Thanks Bob.

[msbee]

I'm arguing over semantics here, I know

 

They're stupid in believing that the DO will grant them any such thing. They are especially stupid if they believe that the DO will leave anything in existence if it ever wins.

 

The DO knows, Moridin knows and we know because we've read the book. But I suspect that the DO could be quite convincing.

I still think stupid is the wrong word here, you don't get to the top of the pile being stupid.

Just can't think of a better word at the moment

[Eht Slat Meit]

I still think stupid is the wrong word here, you don't get to the top of the pile being stupid.

Just can't think of a better word at the moment

 

Naive, but not in the general sense of the word - more a situational naivete based on the (normally) logic that the DO will reward the Chosen who serve him best in the future because that is how he has operated in the past. He -has- done that, rewarding them station, power and life beyond other mortals, but it's questionable as to whether he'd continue to deliver. Blinkered is another word that could be applied here.

[msbee]

 

Naive, but not in the general sense of the word - more a situational naivete based on the (normally) logic that the DO will reward the Chosen who serve him best in the future because that is how he has operated in the past. He -has- done that, rewarding them station, power and life beyond other mortals, but it's questionable as to whether he'd continue to deliver. Blinkered is another word that could be applied here.

 

What he said

 

Even having read the arguments here I find it difficult to imagine someone wanting to destroy existence. I mean why? I can follow Moridin's brand of logic, but I'll never understand it fully, it's just too alien to me personally.

It's far easier to understand that a powerful being would simply want the same as they do - more power. And, to have power you need someone or something to wield it over. If you destroy the underlings you destroy your own power.

[Crowl Rife]

As many who have been around here will tell you I'm President of the These Guys Are Really Stoopid Club. But, any of them actually wanting to be Nae'blis sets a completely new low on the stupidity meter, bending the needle at the bottom peg almost in two.

 

Are we seriously supposed to believe that any of them really wants this job given how they've all worked so hard to make Moridin fail at it?

 

It's only a carrot if it looks like a carrot, smells like a carrot, and tastes like a carrot. This has putrid, rotten onion written all over it. This really does exceed the bounds of dumb evil. This is Wile E. Coyote, Acme Anvil in hand not yet realizing that he's ten feet beyond any support whatsoever with the canyon bottom a thousand feet below.

 

IOW, it's just plain silly, not at all menacing, and totally foolish.

 

I agree with you, it's goofy sometimes... they are all floundering around, not working together, all with their own plans. It sure creates chaos and interesting plotlines, but if the Dark One and Moridin still want Rand to get to the Last Battle alive, it's ultimately pointless. Why not just mindtrap all the Forsaken that don't want to obey orders, sit back and let Rand get to the Battle? What purpose does it serve aside from making Rand more angry than he already is?

[msbee]

I agree with you, it's goofy sometimes... they are all floundering around, not working together, all with their own plans. It sure creates chaos and interesting plotlines, but if the Dark One and Moridin still want Rand to get to the Last Battle alive, it's ultimately pointless. Why not just mindtrap all the Forsaken that don't want to obey orders, sit back and let Rand get to the Battle? What purpose does it serve aside from making Rand more angry than he already is?

 

I guess that's why I've always had the impression that the final fight is simply a distraction from whatever the real plan is.

Something to keep everyone busy while the DO and Shaidar Haran manufacture circumstances.

As Verin said, the DO doesn't fight the way people think he does and there are at least two quotes I can think of to say that Rand is not going to fight the DO at all. They may be red herrings...

The FS have been thoroughly manipulated every step of the way and scrificed as necessary. It IS silly and they ask themselves whether the DO has some alternative plan, but they have to follow orders or they're toast.

Meanwhile, Rand was being forced into a mind-set and may have been turned at VoG, he's also been forced to the next level of his powers.

So, I fully expect a subtle and dastardly plan to emerge in the last book, one that relies on Rand displaying the carefully pre-conditioned emotional responses as well as the full capabilities of the Dragon

 

That's all pretty wooly I know, I don't have a full theory - just random thoughts that keep bothering me

But as you say, it would all just be too silly otherwise