The Aiel Gai'shain to the Seanchan

[Hyronimus]

Given the events of Aviendha’s vision, how can the Aiel avoid their fate?

Avi believed the vision true but what part of it was essential?

 

While the ages of the wheel repeat I don’t see this as some revolving mirror. The Aiel will not ‘turn tinker’, indeed will not ‘go back to the way of the leaf’. That has happened already; what is repeated is not so literal as to be the same, themes repeat, story arches repeat, character types repeat. The next dragon may need the Aiel as the last did but who’s to say the form of the help? I say this because of a number of throw away comments like the Aiel must return to the way of the leaf when the age of the age of legends comes again.

 

If the Aiel heard from Aviendha that they would lose the future war, a war that they had in affect lost without the drawing of blood, defeated before they even began, then could they not preserve their honour by insisting they be made gai'shain? The Aiel in the vision only began the war as a way to regain the honour after the insult of the taken wise ones, but were willing to give the Seanchan the year and a day. Of all the nations the Seanchan should be the best able to understand Ji’e’toh. They hold the concept of slaves who are worthy of command, of having honour. They have the concept of generational agreements, and think of their understanding with the Ogier.

 

A lot of what makes the Aiel so appealing is their bad-arse warrior nature, I for one did not want to see them lose this, and had idle hopes that they would become the policemen of the dragon peace.

However when Rand occupied the cities of Caemyln and Cairhien Rhuarc noted how little they were suited to this role. The Aiel couldn’t understand the need to enforce laws the wetlander way. Remember the Aiel who walked to his own hanging for a murder that he felt completely justified.

 

The concept of gaishain, while reminiscent of the way of the leaf is still a reflection of this self-enforcement. The Aiel are aggressively passive. We learn a lot about this in the Shadow Rising. The maidens (and the stone dogs) are the prickliest at insisting they be made gaishain to preserve their honour, there was the amusing story of the roof mistress shoved aside by a stone dog, insisting she be made gaishain till she ended up his mother in law!

These are not slaves, servants, or people who have lost what makes them the Aiel we know and love. The Aiel we saw in Avi’s vision remained warriors but lost their honour, their ability to police themselves. The telling moment when we learnt that to be made Gai'shain was shaming. It had lost its worth.

 

Their role could extend beyond the Seanchan as such; they may work as peace keepers. I can image a thin line of fiercely passive Aiel between two armies. Even calmly stepping between a bar fight. I could see Rhuidean remaining the free city of the Aiel, the waste the testing ground and the city the halfway point. It may take time, but become gaishain and going into the wetlands eventually could become the highest achievement of honour.

 

Another sticking point of the visions was the numbers of Aiel. This was no remnant of a remnant. The Aiel by the end could not be called true Aiel either. But this demand on their honour could break them. The Shaido have already done a runner for the waste, their honour in ruins. I could see thousands of Aiel choosing a suicide mission into the blight over it. Some solution regarding Damane will also need to be reached.

 

The gai'shain have been portrayed though out the books as an example of what make the Aiel Aiel, while Aviendha has been a window on Ji’e’toh, foreshadowing a solution through it.

[b3arz3rg3r]

There is already atleast one thread on this topic something about the Future of the AIel, I think.

 

But that aside my answer remains the same as the other times I've seen this question, the Aiel are a race of fanatics. They take whatever mission they have to the absolute extreme. It was so with the Way of the Leaf and it's the same with the modern Aiel and their ji'e'toh. The Aiel in Aviendha's vision were without such a divine or however you want to call it mission and that is the ultimate cause of their destruction.

My argument is that whatever mission the Aiel take up it should be

1. something grand which keeps them busy for a couple thousand of years,
   
2. something which puts them on the road back from their martial society to the Way of the Leaf so that their conversion as the Wheel turns seems more natural,
   
3. something which keeps them strong so that they don't dwindle into mediocrity
   
4. and do all this without robbing the Aiel of their distinct culture.
   

 

The best I can come up with is the Aiel rediscovering their Singing, but applying it on a much greater scale than in the Age of Legends. Instead of just singing to grow crops they could start a project to restore the areas destroyed by the DO's touch in general and to transform the Waste into a lush paradise in particular. Rand did say there was an ocean worth of water under Rhuidean and TG may very well alter the climate that the Waste is no longer insulated from rain. Besides I think it would be poetic justice if the Threefold land, the harshest land of all for three thousand years turns out to be the richest of all in the end. That's something the Jenn would wish for their descendants.

 

That should occupy them for a couple of thousand years and since ecologism and pacifism are in a way close cousins it would make sense why if they at a later point in time came back to the Way of the Leaf. Furthermore it would keep them strong as it would keep them united and economically competetitive in the face of the three new dominating nations of Randland -Seanchan, Two Ghealdaea and Cairdor- and the technological advance heralded by Dragons and Steamwaggons.

This path would certainly require close ties with the Ogier, but the Ogier have to get back in the habit of wandering out into the world anyways and the Aiel are the people which suit them best I'd say, and perhaps the rediscovery of the Nym.

[Bob T Dwarf]

There is already atleast one thread on this topic something about the Future of the AIel, I think.

 

But that aside my answer remains the same as the other times I've seen this question, the Aiel are a race of fanatics. They take whatever mission they have to the absolute extreme. It was so with the Way of the Leaf and it's the same with the modern Aiel and their ji'e'toh. The Aiel in Aviendha's vision were without such a divine or however you want to call it mission and that is the ultimate cause of their destruction.

My argument is that whatever mission the Aiel take up it should be

1. something grand which keeps them busy for a couple thousand of years,
   
2. something which puts them on the road back from their martial society to the Way of the Leaf so that their conversion as the Wheel turns seems more natural,
   
3. something which keeps them strong so that they don't dwindle into mediocrity
   
4. and do all this without robbing the Aiel of their distinct culture.
   

 

The best I can come up with is the Aiel rediscovering their Singing, but applying it on a much greater scale than in the Age of Legends. Instead of just singing to grow crops they could start a project to restore the areas destroyed by the DO's touch in general and to transform the Waste into a lush paradise in particular. Rand did say there was an ocean worth of water under Rhuidean and TG may very well alter the climate that the Waste is no longer insulated from rain. Besides I think it would be poetic justice that Threefold land, the harshest land of all for three thousand years turned out to be the richest of all in the end. That's something the Jenn would wish for their descendants.

 

That should occupy them for a couple of thousand years and since ecologism and pacifism are in a way close cousins it would make sense why if they at a later point in time came back to the Way of the Leaf. Furthermore it would keep them strong as it would keep them united and economically competetitive in the face of the three new dominating nations of Randland -Seanchan, Two Ghealdaea and Cairdor- and the technological advance heralded by Dragons and Steamwaggons.

This path would certainly require close ties with the Ogier, but the Ogier have to get back in the habit of wandering out into the world anyways and the Aiel are the people which suit them best I'd say, and perhaps the rediscovery of the Nym.

 

Much of that ^^^^ perpetuates what I see as a fault in the conventional view of the Aiel and Singing.

 

Just as Semirhage was present at the Cleansing, even though we never saw her or had her POV on that battle, the only example of Singing that we've been shown does not mean that "Seed Singing" is all the Singing there was. LTT, as part of his duties as Lord of the Morning, performed ritual Singing of some type every day. In which, according to his own words, any who had "the Voice" were free to join. The Ogier have Treesingers and Stonesingers. Who knows how many different kinds of Singing existed? How many different kinds of Singing the Aiel Singers participated in?

 

There's also the example of the ten thousand Aiel who sang to the mad male channeler as he killed them, trying to remind him of who and what he was. That certainly would have been something other than a "Seed Song."

 

I've thought, all along, that Rand leading the male Aiel in Song would be one of the big TADA's of the finish of AMOL. Song will certainly be needed to reclaim the Blight. Look at what Loial accomplished on his own just by Singing to The Green Man's Memorial Tree.

 

The Eye of the World set everything important in the series up. Everything since has just been filler to get us to the big reveal at the end. I think Singing will be a big part of that revelation.

[Hyronimus]

putting this theory in light of the large amount of discussion on this topic; the speculation on the ultimate future of the Aiel

i have never seen why the Aiel would need to return to the way of the leaf, the tinkers represent this philosophy in this age and is there the foreshadowing that the Aeil as dedicated must continue or the way of the leaf?

 

Similarly, if the seanchan are to be the unifying force of the next age, how much is set regarding how this could be acheived?

 

taking the idea of the outriggers and the vision into account than a world with or without Tuon is something the wheel can indure.

 

given the amount of screen time the gai'shain have had; gaul and those and bain and chaid for example, and the not unreasonable assumbtion that Aviendha will seek her solution via ji'e'toh, it not unreasonable to assume that events in AMoL might include a solution sourced from this.

 

I do like the idea of singing returning and speculating on it's possible repercusions, but I am interested in the events that unfold in the books, and the different variations on the Rand kneeling to the throne (note not the emperess).

 

a remenent of the aiel taking the white as a way of preserving j'e'toh in a form that develops naturally from what we have read and will soon see, specifically to the seanchan, is the topic of this thread.

 

please excuse my bad spelling and vaguaries.

[vanceme]

Aviendha doesn't need to do anything to avert the vision. She just needs to mention to Fortuona that she is slated for an appearance in Seandar for the outrigger novels so she should probably refrain from dying any time soon

[Crowl Rife]

I've thought, all along, that Rand leading the male Aiel in Song would be one of the big TADA's of the finish of AMOL. Song will certainly be needed to reclaim the Blight. Look at what Loial accomplished on his own just by Singing to The Green Man's Memorial Tree.

 

The Eye of the World set everything important in the series up. Everything since has just been filler to get us to the big reveal at the end. I think Singing will be a big part of that revelation.

 

I think Singing will play a major part in the end as well, reclaiming the Blight is the obvious application of it. I wish there had been more time spent on it throughout the series though... seems like an afterthought sometimes. I sincerely hope in the last book that it comes full circle to the events at the end of TEotW.

[Hyronimus]

[/Aviendha doesn't need to do anything to avert the vision. She just needs to mention to Fortuona that she is slated for an appearance in Seandar for the outrigger novels so she should probably refrain from dying any time soonquote]

 

i agree speculation on the outriggers does little to tell us what will happen in AMoL.

 

given the vision and Aviendha's belief that it is true, then she must find a better way for the Aiel to lose. there is a way for Aiel to lose and still maintain their sense of being Aiel.

 

Aviendha wishes to see the Aiel preserve themelves as Aiel/dedicated. The terms of the dragon peace are still up for negotiation. if singing becomes their new reason for existance than that's cool too but the meathode of their preservation will be dictated by ji'e'toh without which the Aiel do not exist.

 

but do the events in the books thus far dipicting gai'shain foreshadow this as a contributing factor in the resolution that we can expect in AMoL?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Aviendha doesn't need to do anything to avert the vision. She just needs to mention to Fortuona that she is slated for an appearance in Seandar for the outrigger novels so she should probably refrain from dying any time soon

 

i agree speculation on the outriggers does little to tell us what will happen in AMoL.

 

given the vision and Aviendha's belief that it is true, then she must find a better way for the Aiel to lose. there is a way for Aiel to lose and still maintain their sense of being Aiel.

 

Aviendha wishes to see the Aiel preserve themelves as Aiel/dedicated. The terms of the dragon peace are still up for negotiation. if singing becomes their new reason for existance than that's cool too but the meathode of their preservation will be dictated by ji'e'toh without which the Aiel do not exist.

 

but do the events in the books thus far dipicting gai'shain foreshadow this as a contributing factor in the resolution that we can expect in AMoL?

 

 

I like your point about ji'e'toh. Yes, it definitely has to remain at the core of their society, but perhaps it can be redefined. And perhaps Aviendha's discovery of the new application of the glass columns can play into it as well. The current society of the Aiel is focussed on making up for their "failure" in the past. That's the toh they had as a people. After TG they'll start from a clean slate without any toh to drive them.

 

How about instead of looking at the past they start looking at the future? If Wise Ones and Clanchiefs see the future of their descendants in the columns from now on, how about they redefine the toh of their people as the obligation to create the best possible future for their descendants? They no longer have a clear goal like serving the Dragon in TG afterall, so something undefined as this would serve them well. If Singing is the instrument by which they accomplish that even better.

[SylvanFox]

It's been mentioned several times that the Aiel only sing when preparing for battle. Maybe it will turn out that they DO have some kind of magic singing ability. They do win a lot of battles...

[b3arz3rg3r]

It's been mentioned several times that the Aiel only sing when preparing for battle. Maybe it will turn out that they DO have some kind of magic singing ability. They do win a lot of battles...

 

And at funerals. But then they are very good at dying as well.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I have seen these conversations happen and each time I think it's best if I don't get involved because I see what everyone is saying and think the opposite, almost, so either everyone is wrong or I am and occams razor usually keeps my mouth shut. But not this time!

 

I think you're all missing the point, 1) Rand has already destroyed the Aiel. 2) Avi's dream/vision whatever is not about saving the Aiel it's about saving the whole world, it's just that since she is an Aiel and therefore suffers from the same ludicrous ways of thinking she focuses on the Aiel too much. The ultimate part of her vision is the people reopenkng the bore, which we all read and thought "oh no the Aiel are starving and almost wiped out, the poor Aiel..." but that's irrelevant. Wo cares if one of Avis descendants is hungry? They're a out to reopen the bore!!!! The start of her vision is about war, the Aiel baing stupid and that leading onto the Seanchan taking over, which results in the bore.

 

Who cares in Avis vision about the Aiel!!!!?????? It's not about them! They're a,ready destroyed! They were the moment Rand and Matt came back at dawn from Rhuidean. Rand has destroyed them, ok? It was prophesised by the Aiel themselves.

 

The Aiel have been destroyed many times, the Shaido may deny it but they used to kill no one. The idea they need to stay hard, to be police men, to even stay a race of people is all wrong as those things don't mean anything other than post tinker/Aiel split Aiel.

 

The Aiel have a choice which they all need to make personally and that is if they wish to continue to serve or if they want to determine their own destiny, those who wish their own lives should be free to go where they like, those who don't should take up a job keeping the peace or something else. They should no longer call themselves the Aiel as they are no longer, 3000 years over due they accepted (or should have anyway, so long as they are not Shaido) that they are no more, they await no more.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Oh and the way to avoid Avis vision from coming true is to destroy the Seanchan. Use all the Aiel in the process if that helps but just get rid of those morons from across the sea.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

There is already atleast one thread on this topic something about the Future of the AIel, I think.

 

But that aside my answer remains the same as the other times I've seen this question, the Aiel are a race of fanatics. They take whatever mission they have to the absolute extreme. It was so with the Way of the Leaf and it's the same with the modern Aiel and their ji'e'toh. The Aiel in Aviendha's vision were without such a divine or however you want to call it mission and that is the ultimate cause of their destruction.

My argument is that whatever mission the Aiel take up it should be

1. something grand which keeps them busy for a couple thousand of years,
   
2. something which puts them on the road back from their martial society to the Way of the Leaf so that their conversion as the Wheel turns seems more natural,
   
3. something which keeps them strong so that they don't dwindle into mediocrity
   
4. and do all this without robbing the Aiel of their distinct culture.
   

 

The best I can come up with is the Aiel rediscovering their Singing, but applying it on a much greater scale than in the Age of Legends. Instead of just singing to grow crops they could start a project to restore the areas destroyed by the DO's touch in general and to transform the Waste into a lush paradise in particular. Rand did say there was an ocean worth of water under Rhuidean and TG may very well alter the climate that the Waste is no longer insulated from rain. Besides I think it would be poetic justice that Threefold land, the harshest land of all for three thousand years turned out to be the richest of all in the end. That's something the Jenn would wish for their descendants.

 

That should occupy them for a couple of thousand years and since ecologism and pacifism are in a way close cousins it would make sense why if they at a later point in time came back to the Way of the Leaf. Furthermore it would keep them strong as it would keep them united and economically competetitive in the face of the three new dominating nations of Randland -Seanchan, Two Ghealdaea and Cairdor- and the technological advance heralded by Dragons and Steamwaggons.

This path would certainly require close ties with the Ogier, but the Ogier have to get back in the habit of wandering out into the world anyways and the Aiel are the people which suit them best I'd say, and perhaps the rediscovery of the Nym.

 

Much of that ^^^^ perpetuates what I see as a fault in the conventional view of the Aiel and Singing.

 

Just as Semirhage was present at the Cleansing, even though we never saw her or had her POV on that battle, the only example of Singing that we've been shown does not mean that "Seed Singing" is all the Singing there was. LTT, as part of his duties as Lord of the Morning, performed ritual Singing of some type every day. In which, according to his own words, any who had "the Voice" were free to join. The Ogier have Treesingers and Stonesingers. Who knows how many different kinds of Singing existed? How many different kinds of Singing the Aiel Singers participated in?

 

There's also the example of the ten thousand Aiel who sang to the mad male channeler as he killed them, trying to remind him of who and what he was. That certainly would have been something other than a "Seed Song."

 

I've thought, all along, that Rand leading the male Aiel in Song would be one of the big TADA's of the finish of AMOL. Song will certainly be needed to reclaim the Blight. Look at what Loial accomplished on his own just by Singing to The Green Man's Memorial Tree.

 

The Eye of the World set everything important in the series up. Everything since has just been filler to get us to the big reveal at the end. I think Singing will be a big part of that revelation.

 

The seed singing means the blight will never touch the plants, Rand felt himself being woven into the soil, the person was rejected from the tower but was full sure this was as good an experience as the power.... That was singing alright. Sure we don't know that it was but what we hope singing achieves is exactly the same as the seed singing? If so then it seems to me that all rand has to do us the role the Nim performed in seed singing.

 

And I from the moment that rand stated there was water beneathe the city I wanted the waste to have full on agriculture and I think that is probably something that would happen if the books were a few books longer but alas we won't see it most likely, hopefully it is mentioned such as 'ruarc and a few ashamen had been assigned the task of fixing the waste with the song rand taught them and the water under the city the one power would pull up." as an aside at some point.

 

I thi k the singing will evolve or will develop from the seed singing into something more but while what rand does is maybe not seed singning the seed is singing grows from will indeed be seed singning. As with the cleansing it has to be as it is the only example we have and it's pretty much the only thing that makes sense and also it's kinda pretty obvious... Hope I don't have to eat my worlds later but it was one of the things in the books that stands out as being obvious to me anyway.

 

 

*really sorry about bad grammar people I'm on iPhone and it is not easy!!!!! I think the seed which singing grows from, if singing is not seed singing, will be from seed singing, and most likely a combination of it and what Ogier still do now a days, almost certainly with them singing the two songs as a sort of remix.

[Hyronimus]

I do like the singing 'aspect', but have to wonder if there is foreshadoing enough, let's see...

 

the first mention is in the prologue when LTT asks about the Voice

 

then Loiel brings up sung wood though this is particular to ogier.

 

we also learn of the tinker's search for the song

 

the idea of singing is expanded on when Rand passes through the pillars and we learn that the Aeil had a part of singing and the knowladge that the tinkers are the lost ones who alone have maintained the way of the leaf 'the Aiel were the way of the leaf' (paraphasing). ironic considering the Aiel did not consider them 'true Aiel' due to the mode of thinking that eventuated in to ji'e'toh, a factor dominating Aiel lines of thought.

 

we also learn that 'Aiel only sing dirges' (i paraphrase) setting up the idea that if they could only sing a different tune

 

this was actually mentioned previously by ogier(?) quote?

 

given that the seanchan are pretty damn cool with the tinkers (they've never had it so good) the Aiel associating themselves with them could only be to the good.

 

the Aiel are possessed with greater knowladge and understanding of what the Aiel as a people are built to adhere to, ie. strength of morals/purpose through ji'e'toh

 

the knowladge that the Aiel are posessed of the Voice and that this can endow them with a position of respect in the eyes of a potentially enlightened seanchan world view (if only they didn't have damane and could see the worth of other cultures exercising their culture within it's domains-we see fortuna recognising this in belsan) then this could easily be present in the dragon peace creation event which doesn't seem so far fetched.

 

and didn't Avi's visions warn of the negetive effect that fortuna's death could have, she is the in...

 

well this is still a bit of a hand of god event, though, it seems foreshadowed enough...I still believe the actual concepet of gai'shain will contribute to the Aiel's ability to except the new fate thrust upon them by the dragon peace(yes I think this is essential), it will probably cost them as the reveal by Rand of their past cost them the shaido

[myth87]

To me the question is whether the future is set or not and If Avi can change it by any action she takes. And that is what we are all assuming is it not? That now that she has fore knowledge she will cause her people to be gaishain to regain her honor? Well if she can do something to change it why does it have to be fight and lose, as was shown in the vision, or surrender and eternal slavery? Could they not come to terms with the Seanchan, have their own culture. All they have to do is swear fealty to the empress. Is that not justified to have peace?

 

But more than that, why dont they just flee back to the waste? The Seanchan would lose if they tried to follow them there and they could continue to live their lives however they wanted. If we accept that Avi will attempt to help her people and was shown a vision of where they are on track to be headed, why is gaishain slavery or another form of surrender the only option?

[deepak_dragonreborn]

IMO the future is not set. If it was there was no point in showing her the vision. Now she realizes the danger of Aiel having no vision after the Last Battle and I think she will be the one who tries to find a new challenge for the Aiel.

 

I still hate the Seanchan though and I would hate if Rand kneels to Fortuna. They are just another distraction for the Light! Instead of helping fight the shadow they are just making it more difficult. No wonder post TG they would be the ones to reckon with. All the other countries will lose a lot in TG... Not the Seanchan though. Cowards!!!

[Bob T Dwarf]

IMO the future is not set. If it was there was no point in showing her the vision. Now she realizes the danger of Aiel having no vision after the Last Battle and I think she will be the one who tries to find a new challenge for the Aiel.

 

I still hate the Seanchan though and I would hate if Rand kneels to Fortuna. They are just another distraction for the Light! Instead of helping fight the shadow they are just making it more difficult. No wonder post TG they would be the ones to reckon with. All the other countries will lose a lot in TG... Not the Seanchan though. Cowards!!!

 

If the future IS set, then there is no point to this whole nearly unending series of books.

 

The only way the series has any point is if the future is fluid and there is some way for the hamsters to get off the stupid Wheel.

 

Trying to predict what Aviendha might do is fruitless until after she goes through the Glass Columns, which we haven't seen her do yet. It's what she will learn during that experience that will inform her decision about her actions going forward.

 

Going from memory here, so I could be wrong but I believe that thus far it is only the Aiel women who sing. I think it is stated more than once that Aiel men never sing. I think the reason for that is that BAD THINGS happen when they do because they have the Voice but have forgotten the proper Songs to Sing. Part of what Rand should now remember, having fully incorporated LTT into his own persona, is just those Songs that cause GOOD THINGS to happen when those with the Voice Sing. If he needs any help with that Elayne has an angreal that contains nothing but Songs.

[Hyronimus]

history repeats, there is fate, but we don't really know what MUST happen.

 

This is what has driven characters like Morainne IMHO.

 

Um, Avi has been through the glass columns Bob T Dwarf, and is pretty much the point of this thread.

 

'Wash the spears' is the only song the Aiel have sung in book, at the death of comrads, and into an unwinnable battle, both men and women sang at those times.

 

Part of what Avi is dealing with quite explicidly is just what the wheel could want from the Aiel,Ji'e'toh held them together after the breaking, kept their thread strong in the pattern, and with it's loss their threads dispersed.

 

I think there is a lot of evidence in the books to argue that Gai'shain are not slaves, that it is the Gai'shain themselves who choose servitude, almost arrogently in the case of some maidens (as the wiseones comment in the shadow rising, I believe in the course of egwene's education)

 

later when there are Gai'shain who refuse to remove the white the wiseones are determined to reverse the trend mostly because the intent is warped.

 

The concept of service to a victor is there, the conditions are open to negotiation.

[Bob T Dwarf]

history repeats, there is fate, but we don't really know what MUST happen.

 

This is what has driven characters like Morainne IMHO.

 

Um, Avi has been through the glass columns Bob T Dwarf, and is pretty much the point of this thread.

 

'Wash the spears' is the only song the Aiel have sung in book, at the death of comrads, and into an unwinnable battle, both men and women sang at those times.

 

Part of what Avi is dealing with quite explicidly is just what the wheel could want from the Aiel,Ji'e'toh held them together after the breaking, kept their thread strong in the pattern, and with it's loss their threads dispersed.

 

I think there is a lot of evidence in the books to argue that Gai'shain are not slaves, that it is the Gai'shain themselves who choose servitude, almost arrogently in the case of some maidens (as the wiseones comment in the shadow rising, I believe in the course of egwene's education)

 

later when there are Gai'shain who refuse to remove the white the wiseones are determined to reverse the trend mostly because the intent is warped.

 

The concept of service to a victor is there, the conditions are open to negotiation.

 

You are correct. It must be that Aviendha hasn't really decided what to do with the information that had me thinking she hadn't gone through the Pillars yet. Apologies. It's been a very full year since Towers of Midnight came out and I'd forgotten she had completed her two trips through the Columns.

 

The major bone of contention between the Aiel and Seanchan that she sees is that the Seanchan do not ever release any woman who can channel, so they're never getting any of the leashed Wise Ones back. The sense of entitlement that the Aiel leaders feel as descendants of the Dragon makes things worse, as well.

 

I suspect that we will never see what Aviendha chooses to do to attempt to forestall the fate she foresee for her people. That will likely remain an unanswered question.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I suspect that we will never see what Aviendha chooses to do to attempt to forestall the fate she foresee for her people. That will likely remain an unanswered question.

 

We will certainly see what Aviendha chooses to do, that much seems obvious to me. But we won't see whether it works in the end.

[Hyronimus]

The major bone of contention between the Aiel and Seanchan that she sees is that the Seanchan do not ever release any woman who can channel, so they're never getting any of the leashed Wise Ones back

Indeed, getting the wiseones back does seem one condition.

 

But even the wiseones comment on how 'they will give the seanchan a year and a day' to return the wiseones, who can not be made gaishain, but then the 'seanchan's ways are different' (TGS i believe).

 

I thought it interesting how restraint the aiel were, the seanchan are long over due to come to the bargaining table.

 

Fortuna's education, from a sense of entitlement, to the hints forshadowing that she may be willing to admit the worth of the westland (aiel) customs enough to dramatically change the seanchan (her time with mat, her comments about Belsan, and the way those Seanchan we 'like' are forming these same opinions.

 

I think part of the point of the visions was that Rand kneeling isn't enough; for fortuna either in the long run.

 

but then that's obvious enough.