one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[SinisterDeath]

So I'm simply going to quit trying to have any kind of rational discussion with you on the subject.

 

 

Good, now we can stop argueing speculation being an invalid in this "arguement", and actually start discussing the major/minor points of each "theory".

[Graendals favourite]

cwestervelt, I rule out male Forsaken because Asmodean would have felt it, Rand is more circumstantial, though I suppose somehow valid. Aviendha is completely circumstantial, we don't know what she sensed and what she noticed and what she should sense and what she should do. She doesn't give us anything.

 

Well, since the arguments why it had to be Graendal's aren't refuted, and they are conclusive, then she is the killer. You don't need to prove everything, you need the name. Asmodean died, so someone did it. Since no one else was capable of it, then it must have been one of the three. Yes, since no one else could have done it, and it was done, then it was "you." Since when was this a legal case? This is enough for any detective. It wasn't his mother's ghost, I tell you that. Do you think there's info to prove anyone had a motive, that they didn't have a secret plan that involved Asmodean staying alive. That's just nonsense. The killer has been figured out, the rest can be argued in the thread: "It was Graendal, so what?"

 

I haven't by the way added much since the beginning of the thread, though I've refrased things as they go, depending on what I understand is unclear. It is reasonable doubt, isn't it? No need to bring in the ufos. I'm no lawyer, so I don't know what would pass a court, but I have the name figured out, it's what I know can be done, so what else do you need? You have here thrown in speculation, which I can reply with speculation, and it's all speculation, except that I've figured out the killer on other grounds, so the speculation is rather superfluous.

 

Who says a case can be built on opportunity to be in Caemlyn, or motive to kill Asmodean? If your approach to the problem doesn't work, try another instead of hitting your head on the wall. Especially when you know, as we did, that the problem can be solved.

[Wolfsbane]

I was told to post on this thread, and you all seem quite passionate about this, so I appologize if this interrupts the due process of C.S.WoT.

 

I think it's Sammael. He was still around, he despises LTT/Rand as much as Demandred and Ishy so anyone giving him ammunition to use against our little Forsaken, he's small so he's gotta be angry at the Creator and the World (am I wrong to think this guy's like 5'5"? I figured he was the stubby Forsaken that all the other Aes Sedai in the Halls of the Servant picked on), he was working with Graendel so if Graendel was there- he had to be too.

Has Sammael been removed as a possible culprit and I just missed it because, for some odd reason, I didn't want to read 64 PAGES of this discussion.. NOT that you guys sound like your repeating yourselves..

 

but you sound like your repeating yourselves

 

Wolfs

[rd2000]

Sammael was described as being head and shoulders taller than Graendal.

[SinisterDeath]

Umm, as for sammaul, I'm inclinded to agree however someone said something along the lines, that when sammuel learned of asmo's death, in his own pov, "inner thoughts" he was supprised to learn he was dead.. Which either means 2 things.

1. He didnt kill asmo

2. He has split personalities, and the 2nd killed asmo.

3. OR, sammuel even lies to him self. :P

[jasonr]

hi everbody, some of you might remember me from like... page 32... :D I am just dropping in to say hi and wow, I am amazed that this is still going and at 64 pages! Sorry for interupting. :D

[Jonn_2]

 

Well' date=' since the arguments why it had to be Graendal's aren't refuted, and they are conclusive, then she is the killer. You don't need to prove everything, you need the name. Asmodean died, so someone did it. Since no one else was capable of it, then it must have been one of the three. Yes, since no one else could have done it, and it was done, then it was "you." Since when was this a legal case? This is enough for any detective. It wasn't his mother's ghost, I tell you that. Do you think there's info to prove anyone had a motive, that they didn't have a secret plan that involved Asmodean staying alive. That's just nonsense. The killer has been figured out, the rest can be argued in the thread: "It was Graendal, so what?"

 

.[/quote']

 

Call me what you like but I think people who settle for Graendal are under-achievers and semi-delusional.

 

Just because you can't completely rule her out doesn't mean she makes much sense as the killer. It doesn't even make sense why RJ wouldn't just confirm it if it were so simple. The conclusion I have to come to is that there is something more to it than we are really aware or meant to be aware of. whatever the case this issue has grown to something far bigger than an answer as dull as Graendal. It's such an issue that RJ finally broke down and had to suggest that he may in fact give the clear answer in the final book. I happen to be of the mind that it was always meant to be revealed in the end and the pieces we have had to deal with for so long were meant to have us hanging in suspense.

[Graendals favourite]

Mate, I'm not going to call you anything. Disagreeing over something is never a personal matter, as long as it's sincere, and what is in the books does not tell anything about me except that I like them.

 

Ruling everyone else out, and her viable, does make sense making her the killer. It doesn't matter how you reach a conclusion, as long as it's legit, a conclusion is a conclusion. That's the way it goes in mathematical sciences, anyway.

 

The why of the mystery is better served in a different thread. I don't know the answer to why RJ kept it a mystery, maybe it will be revealed in MoL, I think that is possible, or maybe he just liked to have the mystery going. I can understand that approach, if it's there to be figured out, then let them. Also, there's things always going on we don't know about. This is not the thread for me to speculate on that though.. I think it's time for me to leave this thread to others, I've explained what I can, I think.

[Jonn_2]

That's the thing about Graendal. All there is to say about her being the culprit, has been said. As it stands, it is far from enough to prove her as the undisputed suspect. I don't see that there can be any more to say that would convince me that it has been a smoothe corner in the narrative or worth all of this fuss.

[Graendals favourite]

I agree, I don't know if it's been worth the fuss, but it has been fun, though.

[Jedimuppet]

 

Call me what you like but I think people who settle for Graendal are under-achievers and semi-delusional.

 

Heheh, that's what my mom says, too.

 

Seriously, I think that comment itself is intellectually lazy since you guys have gotten mired in details that don't actually touch on the substance of anyone's argument. I think you might also find it soothing to diminish other people's capabilities in a debate. Whatever.

 

Who do you think you did it, then.

 

I go with Graendal. She was not who I thought in the beginning, and I only arrived at it after several years of paying attention to the debate. Still, now anyone who thinks Graendal is somehow of diminished capacity.

 

So put your theory forward so we can link you with it and call it inferior :P

 

J

[Jedimuppet]

Who was there? You have yet to provide any logical or overriding reason for any Forsaken to be there.

 

If such a hypothetical person existed' date=' with such acute observational or psychic powers, it could as well have been a male using an inverted weave as a female.[/quote']

 

Yes, I spoken not a word on who was there. I've spoken who must have been there. I'm starting from how the murder could have happened, so when reaching the conclusion it could only have been carried out by a female Forsaken, then one of them must have been there. Yes, the analysis starts from the murder scene. Since that gives the answer, what else is needed?

 

 

Motive, means, opportunity and in this special case as it is a book, service to the plot that makes sense.

 

I interpret what Bob is saying to mean motive. I'll add on service to the plot to make it even better.

 

Graendal partially fulfills opportunity and more or less has the means to pull the trigger. She hardly begins to explain any real motive given the circumstances, and the service to the plot has been next to nil. If Graendal is the solution, then so far it has been the biggest goose chase ever put in print.

 

We've said this already but Graendal has several powerful motives.

 

1) She's obviously playing a dangerous game with the other Forsaken that we barely understand, and like the mob they often hit at each other, especially after a betrayal, but more often when information or physical gain is to be had.

 

2) She may have been interested in some sort of information about Rahvin. She may even know what happened in Caemlyn. She may very well have wanted to see for herself. That would be an accident if she ran into Asmo, but I'm pretty sure any of the forsaken would take him out in that case.

 

3) She has schemes within schemes, and it's pretty clear nothing's been revealed about her plans. It's not a stretch to speculate they may have touched on Caemlyn or people in it. I think it would serve her purposes well to be the only one who knew killed Asmo. In fact while reading forsaken chapters, I often thought it was funny how, if true, she was playing Sammael so bad.

 

4) I think she might also like Rand thinking his teacher ran off. She may use that tidbit yet.

 

I admit those above motives could be applied to almost any of the Forsaken, but I have yet to see anything that discredits her.

 

Further, I think Asmo was killed by channeling. Certainly because of textual clues about how his voice hung in the air. I know that's a tired debate, but I think RJ is famous for leaving significant clues like that in subtle ways.

 

Also, no body really makes me suspicious. I don't believe it was dragged out and burned. For all you guys go on about inventing, that one strikes me as the icing on the cake.

 

I think it was balefire. I think if it was not Asmo would have been brought back, mindtrapped. The DO is not wasting anyone at this point, and he could've used Asmo again while making him pay the whole time. Why wouldn't he. We've seen him do it twice now.

 

As far as male or female, I don't really know. It doesn't matter if Asmo felt the person channel since he was toast anyway, and a male might've been able to get away with channeling. I'm rereading the series now (on KoD), and Rand's ability to sense channeling at a distance is inconsistent, especially given inversion. So, as of now, I think it was a Forsaken, but not sure on sex. I'm certain it wasn't Sammael as he doesn't even know Asmo is dead as per his Pov.

 

So it has to be a Forsaken (given above line of reasoning) that we've already met. Who else on that list makes sense?

 

So before you tell me I made everything up, I challenge you to put forth a theory that doesn't include as much speculation, and before you say that I"m too attached to it, I challenge you to put forth one that makes sense and is self consistent.

 

This debate has become mired in contextual details that RJ probably never thought of it, and it's getting a little embarrasing.

 

So to recap:

I think it was a Forsaken, because only a Forsaken would know Asmo was fair game AND have the guts to attack (they probably dont' know about the shield).

 

I think he was killed by BF because I think the DO would have brought him back mindtrapped due to a paucity of resources.

 

Those two lead me to Graendal as the best candidate.

 

J

[goldeneys]

hmmm that gives you a lot to ponder, I always thought it was her, but I couldn't explain why (I'm never good at explaining), but you really laid it out good here. Thanks.

[Jonn_2]

Yes Jedi, we've heard all of this back to the beginning of the debate, years ago.

I think within that time, enough has been said to highlight the doubts that Graendal did it or is even involved in it.

 

What bothers me about Graendal believers is that you can give them any number of reasons that they could be wrong. New ones, old ones, plain reasons, and elaborate conspiracies, dozens of them. New theories every year as to why Graendal doesn't fit, they'll get mentioned. Those all get argued away. Some, even successfully, by people who believe it was Graendal and even a few who don't. Still, it always comes back to the same tired suppositions by the Graendal camp. Then we have to go through the same set of arguments all over again, just to prove that those same pro-Graendal arguments are STILL INCOMPLETE, STILL INCONCLUSIVE, without any indication at all that we will have a definitive answer. Also, even if we get the answer and it was Graendal, what kind of justification will we be given? What plausible reason as to why, if it was supposed to be that simple and uninspired, we've had to wait over a decade to get this answer?

 

I'm convinced that if it was Graendal, and the only reason RJ kept the answer from us is because he liked making us argue, that would be one of the most petty things I have ever heard of. Just because we didn't get his "subtlety", he turns around and makes it our fault for not being able to figure it out? Sorry folks, but that is cr@p.

 

Emotional as that is, it must be said, because as I point it out, yet again, this is the point of the argument we have reached. The tired part where everyone again recognises that we're going in the infinite circle that is the Asmodean mystery.

 

I mean, really... Graendal's Fave was doing all of the work for a while there, holding up the argument then finally gave up as it was going nowhere. You would think that the next person would come up with something we've never heard before to explain away the doubt, but alas...Same argument, and people like me playing the part of the ones to point that out.

[Jedimuppet]

Yes Jedi' date=' we've heard all of this back to the beginning of the debate, years ago.

I think within that time, enough has been said to highlight the doubts that Graendal did it or is even involved in it.

 

What bothers me about Graendal believers is that you can give them any number of reasons that they could be wrong. New ones, old ones, plain reasons, and elaborate conspiracies, dozens of them. New theories every year as to why Graendal doesn't fit, they'll get mentioned. Those all get argued away. Some, even successfully, by people who believe it was Graendal and even a few who don't. Still, it always comes back to the same tired suppositions by the Graendal camp. Then we have to go through the same set of arguments all over again, just to prove that those same pro-Graendal arguments are STILL INCOMPLETE, STILL INCONCLUSIVE, without any indication at all that we will have a definitive answer. Also, even if we get the answer and it was Graendal, what kind of justification will we be given? What plausible reason as to why, if it was supposed to be that simple and uninspired, we've had to wait over a decade to get this answer?

 

I'm convinced that if it was Graendal, and the only reason RJ kept the answer from us is because he liked making us argue, that would be one of the most petty things I have ever heard of. Just because we didn't get his "subtlety", he turns around and makes it our fault for not being able to figure it out? Sorry folks, but that is cr@p.

 

Emotional as that is, it must be said, because as I point it out, yet again, this is the point of the argument we have reached. The tired part where everyone again recognises that we're going in the infinite circle that is the Asmodean mystery.

 

I mean, really... Graendal's Fave was doing all of the work for a while there, holding up the argument then finally gave up as it was going nowhere. You would think that the next person would come up with something we've never heard before to explain away the doubt, but alas...Same argument, and people like me playing the part of the ones to point that out.[/quote']

 

So, by the absence of your own idea, I can assume you don't have one?

 

My problem with this debate is that first of all you're lumping anyone who thinks it was Graendal together, as if GF and I agreed on much of anything except that she's the most likely candidate.

 

Second, none of you seems to understand most likely. Instead you take that as unyielding and unreasonable commitment to that possibility only.

 

Third when I clearly make points that have not been offered before, you ignore them and pretend that they were.

 

I just don't understand the need to insult people.

J

[Guest Egwene]

However in the process of discussing this again Jonn, my attention certainly was drawn to a lot of details that I had missed when reading the books.

 

A Proposal

 

I would like to edit my original post to include a 'how we think it could have happened' for each suspect. This is how - Graendal being the favourite we start with her. One of her supporters volunteers :D to write a post on how it happened. This includes why she should be there (i.e. motive if ambush, reason for being discovered if accidental), how she did it, reasons for keping it quiet etc. At which point we all try and find any additional points in favour to add to that post. Once it's been edited to the satisfacion of her supporters (style of post to be short in preference to eloquence) I'll add it to my original post. Note, I am talking about in favour only as that may get us past some of the points where the debate gets bogged down. Only if there is a positivly prooven impossibility (not unlikeliness or improbability) will I take a proposed point out.

 

We than go on to the next suspect and do the same. Having made our way through the list, we could than start at the beginning again and do the opposite - i.e. why it could not have been her.

 

It's been done before... who cares? We haven't :D well, what do you think? Any volunteers to write the initial Graendal post?

[Jonn_2]

Yes Jedi' date=' we've heard all of this back to the beginning of the debate, years ago.

I think within that time, enough has been said to highlight the doubts that Graendal did it or is even involved in it.

 

What bothers me about Graendal believers is that you can give them any number of reasons that they could be wrong. New ones, old ones, plain reasons, and elaborate conspiracies, dozens of them. New theories every year as to why Graendal doesn't fit, they'll get mentioned. Those all get argued away. Some, even successfully, by people who believe it was Graendal and even a few who don't. Still, it always comes back to the same tired suppositions by the Graendal camp. Then we have to go through the same set of arguments all over again, just to prove that those same pro-Graendal arguments are STILL INCOMPLETE, STILL INCONCLUSIVE, without any indication at all that we will have a definitive answer. Also, even if we get the answer and it was Graendal, what kind of justification will we be given? What plausible reason as to why, if it was supposed to be that simple and uninspired, we've had to wait over a decade to get this answer?

 

I'm convinced that if it was Graendal, and the only reason RJ kept the answer from us is because he liked making us argue, that would be one of the most petty things I have ever heard of. Just because we didn't get his "subtlety", he turns around and makes it our fault for not being able to figure it out? Sorry folks, but that is cr@p.

 

Emotional as that is, it must be said, because as I point it out, yet again, this is the point of the argument we have reached. The tired part where everyone again recognises that we're going in the infinite circle that is the Asmodean mystery.

 

I mean, really... Graendal's Fave was doing all of the work for a while there, holding up the argument then finally gave up as it was going nowhere. You would think that the next person would come up with something we've never heard before to explain away the doubt, but alas...Same argument, and people like me playing the part of the ones to point that out.[/quote']

 

So, by the absence of your own idea, I can assume you don't have one?

 

My problem with this debate is that first of all you're lumping anyone who thinks it was Graendal together, as if GF and I agreed on much of anything except that she's the most likely candidate.

 

Second, none of you seems to understand most likely. Instead you take that as unyielding and unreasonable commitment to that possibility only.

 

Third when I clearly make points that have not been offered before, you ignore them and pretend that they were.

 

I just don't understand the need to insult people.

J

 

Sorry, but I have heard your points before several times as they have been discussed prior to your entrance. Frankly it's kind of insulting that you would bring the same points up and expect us to debate them as if they were the first time we have heard them.

 

You can't be unaware that we have been discussing these points. You have posted in the midst of it all. What remains under question is if you were paying attention or simply skimming the thread.

 

If you had been paying attention you'd know what my theory is.

 

The main point of my theory is that it is an unsolvable mystery as it is and the answer was always meant to be revealed by the end of the books. All of RJ's insistence that you can solve it given what was in the books up to the murder, that was a red herring.

[Jonn_2]

Graendal Travels into Caemlyn, I don't know why...Maybe she had a mole in the City to set off a weave to alarm her if something happens there.

Graendal has a look around the palace using a disguise, possibly inverted mask of mirrors. She spots Asmodean and decides to off him because he's a traitor. She follows him and finds a way to get ahead of him, reveals herself and zaps him. She Travels out with the information to use later, but nothing else besides self-confirmation that both Asmodean and Rahvin are dead.

[Linither]

I've lurked a bit on this site but for this I feel that I must post another theory that is in my opinion feasible. Ironic as it may be I think that Asmodean may well have been killed by Mazrim Taim. He is a dark friend, he has had contact with Asmodean and could know who he is, and Asmodean would surely have been shocked to face him. Also Asmodeans death would have made Taim more important as a teacher seeing as how they both used different spells.

 

I could ofcourse be way off, its been a while since I reread the books, but I would be interested in hearing your opinions.

[Jedimuppet]

Yes Jedi' date=' we've heard all of this back to the beginning of the debate, years ago.

I think within that time, enough has been said to highlight the doubts that Graendal did it or is even involved in it.

 

What bothers me about Graendal believers is that you can give them any number of reasons that they could be wrong. New ones, old ones, plain reasons, and elaborate conspiracies, dozens of them. New theories every year as to why Graendal doesn't fit, they'll get mentioned. Those all get argued away. Some, even successfully, by people who believe it was Graendal and even a few who don't. Still, it always comes back to the same tired suppositions by the Graendal camp. Then we have to go through the same set of arguments all over again, just to prove that those same pro-Graendal arguments are STILL INCOMPLETE, STILL INCONCLUSIVE, without any indication at all that we will have a definitive answer. Also, even if we get the answer and it was Graendal, what kind of justification will we be given? What plausible reason as to why, if it was supposed to be that simple and uninspired, we've had to wait over a decade to get this answer?

 

I'm convinced that if it was Graendal, and the only reason RJ kept the answer from us is because he liked making us argue, that would be one of the most petty things I have ever heard of. Just because we didn't get his "subtlety", he turns around and makes it our fault for not being able to figure it out? Sorry folks, but that is cr@p.

 

Emotional as that is, it must be said, because as I point it out, yet again, this is the point of the argument we have reached. The tired part where everyone again recognises that we're going in the infinite circle that is the Asmodean mystery.

 

I mean, really... Graendal's Fave was doing all of the work for a while there, holding up the argument then finally gave up as it was going nowhere. You would think that the next person would come up with something we've never heard before to explain away the doubt, but alas...Same argument, and people like me playing the part of the ones to point that out.[/quote']

 

So, by the absence of your own idea, I can assume you don't have one?

 

My problem with this debate is that first of all you're lumping anyone who thinks it was Graendal together, as if GF and I agreed on much of anything except that she's the most likely candidate.

 

Second, none of you seems to understand most likely. Instead you take that as unyielding and unreasonable commitment to that possibility only.

 

Third when I clearly make points that have not been offered before, you ignore them and pretend that they were.

 

I just don't understand the need to insult people.

J

 

Sorry, but I have heard your points before several times as they have been discussed prior to your entrance. Frankly it's kind of insulting that you would bring the same points up and expect us to debate them as if they were the first time we have heard them.

 

You can't be unaware that we have been discussing these points. You have posted in the midst of it all. What remains under question is if you were paying attention or simply skimming the thread.

 

If you had been paying attention you'd know what my theory is.

 

The main point of my theory is that it is an unsolvable mystery as it is and the answer was always meant to be revealed by the end of the books. All of RJ's insistence that you can solve it given what was in the books up to the murder, that was a red herring.

 

I find it ironic you're using the word insulting for some perceived slight, when you out and out call people names, but again, whatever.

 

So Graendal doing it is the mark of an underachieving mind, but deciding it's unsolvable is what, sophisticated?

 

J

[Jedimuppet]

I've lurked a bit on this site but for this I feel that I must post another theory that is in my opinion feasible. Ironic as it may be I think that Asmodean may well have been killed by Mazrim Taim. He is a dark friend' date=' he has had contact with Asmodean and could know who he is, and Asmodean would surely have been shocked to face him. Also Asmodeans death would have made Taim more important as a teacher seeing as how they both used different spells.

 

I could ofcourse be way off, its been a while since I reread the books, but I would be interested in hearing your opinions.[/quote']

 

It's supposed to be a fun and lighthearted way to pass time til the new book comes out (long as that may be), so whether you're off or not shouldn't be an issue.

 

If you think you have a new perspective, you should share it.

 

J

[Jedimuppet]

What really gets me is no one responded to the notion that Asmodean was BF'd because the DO didn't bring him back. I was sure that would be controversial, but like I said before, I think he'd have been brought back mindtrapped. If he was indeed bf'd, I think that's a significant breakthrough.

 

J

[goldeneys]

If he was Bf'd, then wouldn't Rand have noticed, that much of the power could be sensed for quite a ways. Didn't it say he was stabbed? I haven't read it for a while, so I'm just asking.

[Inara]

nope it says his words hung in the air after he was gone...and they never found a body

i thought it was common knowlege that balefire was the most prefered method

i could be wrong, reading 65 or so pages is a little too much to ask

 

also, i dont know if anyone has mentioned this or not, i remember reading somewhere (WOTFAQ i think) that RJ had told someone that asmo's killer should be 'immediatly obvious' the moment he is killed

i remember because the comment was made that the word 'obvious' must have been used in the same context as when physics teachers use it...cracked me up

[Inara]

also, trickles of inverted balefire woulld have been invisible to him...not to mention saidar and the TP