one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Bob T Dwarf]

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZ!

 

She wasn't there. Even invisibly. How many cockamamie unsupported notions are you guys going to invent?

 

Inverted weaves; reversed weves; neither has been introduced yet. Moving masks of invisibility?!?!?!?!

 

I'd rather see you guys pin it on either being psychic or having X-Ray vision. Even a combined conspiracy between Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Something at least marginally believable if you're 4 years old.

[Graendals favourite]

Bob, you asked someone what is so hard to get about the weaves being different. I would ask what is so hard to get in that the weaves produce a gateway. Yes, Min cannot see weaves. She however can see. So if there had been a gateway, she would have seen it. There was none. Lanfear simply disappeared.

 

And inverted weaves had been used many times already.

 

You say it yourself, there's myriad ways for Graendal be undetected in the Palace. So it is completely possible.

 

I have proven it had to be Graendal who killed Asmodean, and you have failed in proving she couldn't be in Caemlyn to do it. I can state a number of ways for her to reach that garden. So, the case holds, unwavering, strong as ever, with Graendal the undoubted murderer. There's none else could do it, if you don't want to bring Mesaana or Semirhage into the picture.

[Graendals favourite]

And there's no matter of preference here. The meeting behind the door couldn't be an accident, because of Asmodean's pov. So it wasn't. So the murderer was the person who could be there without it being an accident, in the circumstances described in Glowing Embers. This person was Graendal, Mesaana, or Semirhage. So it is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer, that the killer was Graendal.

[SinisterDeath]

Speaking of graendal, do you think there is any relation to her, and the story of Bawulf? If so, I wonders how that could effect the theory she killed asmo?

 

If It werent for samuels "pov" I'd say it were him. :P

 

I think semi was to busy orchstrating her plans with the seanchan to give a hoot about asmo.. I don't think anyone cares about Mesaana enough to point it on it.. Ishamale was dead.. Lanfear was put out of the picture to the point it wouldnt make sense if it were her. She had motive? But no means.. I doubt moiraine would have done it, for same reasons as above, plus she can't really leave, as she's still inside...

 

So basically it narrows it down to, Graendal, Samuel *maybe he lies to himself?*, Bela, or lewis therin himself. =)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Bob' date=' you asked someone what is so hard to get about the weaves being different. I would ask what is so hard to get in that the weaves produce a gateway. Yes, Min cannot see weaves. She however can see. So if there had been a gateway, she would have seen it. There was none. Lanfear simply disappeared.

 

And inverted weaves had been used many times already.

[/quote']

 

Did anybody see any gateways when Baalzy and Rand disappeared into T'A'R in Tear? No. They just disappeared. They both "twisted reality" and went someplace else. Nobody saw anything that even faintly resembled a gateway.

 

Same with Lanfear. She simply stepped out of and back into T'A'R.

 

And, no, neither reversed nor inverted weaves had been introduced at the time of Asmo's death, so neither of those could have been used to get there, kill him, nor get away.

[havoc110]

And' date=' no, neither reversed nor inverted weaves had been introduced at the time of Asmo's death, so neither of those could have been used to get there, kill him, nor get away.[/quote']

 

What is the basis for this assumption? After all RJ says it is obvious using info up to and including TPoD, right?

 

(I'm not sure I have RJ's words right, so feel free to pile on if I have them wrong.)

[Bob T Dwarf]

What I believe Jordan said ( and, I may be wrong as well ), is that it should be intuitively obvious to a casual reader who the killer is at the time of the murder. His feeling was ( and still is, so far as I know ) that immediately upon reading of Asmo's death, the killer should be obvious to all of us.

 

Sometime after The Path of Daggers, he repeated that all the clues were there to solve the murder.

 

I take that to mean that all clues existed by the end of The Fires of Heaven, and that any additional information in following books only confirmed what was already known.

 

In terms of the immediate discussion, that means that anything, such as inverted weaves, that had not been introduced prior to the murder cannot be considered. Just as characters who have not been introduced yet cannot be considered, techniques that have not been introduced yet cannot be considered.

 

Think of it this way:

 

There are only 5 books in the series. Nothing more is written after The Fires of Heaven.

 

Who are the suspects then? Based only on what we know through The Fires of Heaven?

[Graendals favourite]

Bob, I really don't see what you're on about. I'll then follow with the next paragraph if it helps:

 

"Stepping through quickly, he loosed the weave and hurried away across the courtyard as the gateway vanished. Rahvin would halve felt that gate if he was close enough and trying. The fat little stone man did not mean he could stand and wait to be attacked."

 

Rand stepped through the gateway into Tel'aran'rhiod. There was a gateway, and rand stepped through it. The same thing Rand and Ishamael had done in Tear. And Min saw no gateways, and no stepping through.

 

And inverted weaves, the ability to use them, was known by the murder. Just look at fat, ugly Keille, a peddler who cannot channel. In reality she was Lanfear, one of the most beautiful women ever. She didn't do it by make up. She used the Power. Moiraine couldn't see she did. So she had somehow made it so that having the mask on couldn't be seen.

 

In Tanchico we're introduced to Moghdedien doing an invisibility on the seal. Neither could the Aes Sedai in the palace searching see those weaves. Nynaeve did not detect that Marigan, Nicola or Areina were actually someone else, and Nynaeve I tell you was able to recognise Moghedien by that point.

 

Bob, it is you who make unbased claims, while the contrary is supported by the books.

[Graendals favourite]

Sinister, I'm not aware of that story.

 

The proof makes Sammael impossible, because he no better than anyone else could have met Asmo behind the door by chance, and otherwise, it needed to be saidar used to get behind the door, because Asmodean in his pov could not possible have failed to feel saidin.

[Mugah]

New here. Hi. I ma on my third reading and have not acually read the newest book so sorry if i say something that has been proven wrong on that book.

 

This is a murder mystery and to solve it you examine the body to betumine the murder weapon. Can't do that. Next is means, motive and opritunity. Means and oppritunity can be guessed at for a great many people and those can be denied as there is litle proof. But motive is the only substantial thing we have so that is what ill talk about.

 

Anyone loyal to the Great Lord would want to kill the traitor as they know him. But we as readers know that Asmodean never chose to defect. He was forced into it by Lanfear. No one knows this exept the three conspiroters. If Asmodean were to die by anyway other than bailfire, he would be snatched up by the Great Lord. He would explain who really betrayed him at his first possible chance. This would of been very bad for Lanfear. she is the only person who would have used balefire. Any other of the Chosen would have delivered him to thier Lord. People that are saying that Lanfear has no motive to do so are forgetting that she very reciently had a drastic change of heart. She wanted to ally with Rand and overthrow both the Great Lord and the Creator. But when she found out that another woman had been with him she decided to kill Rand and rejoin the Great Lord. Thus the truth about what she had been doing needed to be covered up.

 

Note: I appoligise to anyone offended by my terminoligy. The baddies are refered to by different names depending on how the speaker thinks about them. The ones who fear and hate him call him the Dark One and those who fear and repect him call him the Great Lord. I dont hate the baddies so i use those terms. Flame away. I have thick skin.

[SinisterDeath]

Umm, we never said lanfear had no motive, just that she had no means of doing so. At the time, Everyone knew lanfear and Moiraine were dead.. There was no way, for us to know likewise. So its strikingly obvious it couldnt be them....

 

As for bob... It's pretty obvious that the forsaken knew how to use inverted/reversed weaves, as well as masking there "powers" to other people, Before we as readers were introduced to it. And you your self said, post fires of heaven, only adds to how/who/when the murderer happened. And reversed/inverted/hiding power only helps to say how it could have happened.

 

As for the gateway claims. I still stand, that RJ changes his DESCRIPTIONS all the time in the book. A gateway in book 1 will read differently then a gateway in book 8. So it is entirely reasonable, that they were infact gateways, and not something completely different. . . And the only reason they "apeared" differnet is this. You make a gateway, that is escentially going to the sameplace you are already at. You won't see any "rotating bar of light" becuase, whats behind it, is exactly what you would normally see behind it. It be like looking through a glass window. Or better yet, you slide a piece of glass in between a frame. If your looking through it, it almost apears as if nothing has changed. If you were a channeler you would notice the wave, but for non, it just looks like nothings there...

So can we please just stop argueing that these things are infact gateways, just that 2 things have happened. RJ's descriptions tend to change, and that the destination has changed slightly, from there reality to another, and that going from one place to another automatically changes the weaves minutely, where as going to a different reality, makes the weaves slightly more noticably different, but either way, they are still gateways. Just think of the nature of a gateway, Its not the same weave everytime, it changes, based on to where you are going....

[Guest cwestervelt]

Umm' date=' we never said lanfear had no motive, just that she had no means of doing so. At the time, Everyone knew lanfear and Moiraine were dead.. There was no way, for us to know likewise. So its strikingly obvious it couldnt be them....

 

As for bob... It's pretty obvious that the forsaken knew how to use inverted/reversed weaves, as well as masking there "powers" to other people, Before we as readers were introduced to it. And you your self said, post fires of heaven, only adds to how/who/when the murderer happened. And reversed/inverted/hiding power only helps to say how it could have happened.

 

As for the gateway claims. I still stand, that RJ changes his DESCRIPTIONS all the time in the book. A gateway in book 1 will read differently then a gateway in book 8. So it is entirely reasonable, that they were infact gateways, and not something completely different. . . And the only reason they "apeared" differnet is this. You make a gateway, that is escentially going to the sameplace you are already at. You won't see any "rotating bar of light" becuase, whats behind it, is exactly what you would normally see behind it. It be like looking through a glass window. Or better yet, you slide a piece of glass in between a frame. If your looking through it, it almost apears as if nothing has changed. If you were a channeler you would notice the wave, but for non, it just looks like nothings there...

So can we please just stop argueing that these things are infact gateways, just that 2 things have happened. RJ's descriptions tend to change, and that the destination has changed slightly, from there reality to another, and that going from one place to another automatically changes the weaves minutely, where as going to a different reality, makes the weaves slightly more noticably different, but either way, they are still gateways. Just think of the nature of a gateway, Its not the same weave everytime, it changes, based on to where you are going....[/quote']

 

Not everyone believed Moiraine and Lanfear to be dead after passing though the Ter'angreal. I never even considered her death a possibility.

 

Comparing gateways to Tel'aran'rhiod and within the real world is pointless. It is the proverbial apples to oranges. This is stated all within a single book.

 

In Lord of Chaos when Egwene opens the gateway to Tel'aran'rhiod, the we have

The air shimmered in the middle of the tent, along her weave, cloaking the other side in mistiness.

 

Then, when she opens the gateway to the Waste we have

This time she was not trying to touch the World of Dreams, but she expected something much the same if it worked. What she got was quite different.

 

The thin curtain she wove did not produce the shimmering effect, and it lasted only a moment before snapping together in a vertical line that was suddenly a slash of silvery blue light. The light itself widened quickly - or perhaps turned; it looked that way to her - into ... something. There in the middle of the floor was a ... a doorway, not at all the misty view she had had of Tel'aran'rhiod from her tent,

 

Based on the description of the Tel'aran'rhiod gateway, had Min not been looking straight at it, the shimmering being contained within a weave that Min couldn't see may very well not have been visible to her. Then, when Lanfear passed through, she would have simply appear to vanish.

[SinisterDeath]

Umm, the idea behind the lanfear/min thing, I think would have been, she was already beyond the gateway, and simply closed it, so apearing as if just, gone in a blink of an eye.. at least thats my take.

[Graendals favourite]

Hmm, I see, that way. Yea, I'm not sure if that can be ruled out. The entire meeting is (I'm getting to copyright things if I keep up with these.. but hopefully this isn't too much yet since it's discussed):

tGH: First Claiming:

"Not Rand al’Thor," said a musical voice from the door. "Lews Therin Telamon. The Dragon Reborn."

Min stared. She was the most beautiful woman Min had ever seen, with pale, smooth skin, and long, black hair, and eyes as dark as night. Her dress was a white that would make snow seem dingy, belted in silver. All her jewellery was silver. Min felt herself bristle. "What do you mean? Who are you?"

The woman came to stand over the bed—her movements were so graceful, Min felt a stab of envy, though she had never before envied a woman anything—and smoothed Rand’s hair as if Min was not there. "He doesn’t believe yet, I think. He knows, but he does not believe. I have guided his steps, pushed him, pulled him, enticed him. He was always stubborn, but this time I will shape him. Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do." Her finger brushed Rand’s forehead as if drawing a mark; Min thought uneasily that it looked like the Dragon’s Fang. Rand stirred, murmuring, the first sound or movement he had made since she found him.

"Who are you?" Min demanded. The woman looked at her, only looked, but she found herself shrinking back into the pillows, clutching Rand to her fiercely.

"I am called Lanfear, girl."

Min’s mouth was abruptly so dry she could not have spoken if her life depended on it. One of the Forsaken! No! Light, no! All she could do was shake her head. The denial made Lanfear smile.

"Lews Therin was and is mine, girl. Tend him well for me until I come for him." And she was gone.

Min gaped. One moment she was there, then she was gone. Min discovered she was hugging Rand’s unconscious form tightly. She wished she did not feel as if she wanted him to protect her.

 

Doesn't it come across that Lanfear was still by the bed, and didn't back away before disappearing?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Prior to the Cleansing, Rand keeps the access keys in a hole in the wall that he disguises. Nobody notices any weaves there either.

 

Any weave used to hide something that left a residue that was detectable by another channeler wouldn't be a very effective weave. That just means it's a weave used to hide something, not an inverted or reversed weave. Those are techniques that have not been revealed yet as of TFOH.

 

According to Jordan's own words, we should know, based strictly on what has been revealed through TFOH, who the killer is. That specifically means that once something like inverted weaves are revealed in a later book, we cannot then go back and say, "Ahhhh, so-and-so did it by using an inverted weave." We didn't know inverted weaves existed at the time of the murder. Thus inverted weaves cannot play any part in the commision of the murder.

 

As for how Lanfear vanished, we need to go back to the battle between Baalzy and Rand in Tear:

Ba'alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.

 

For a moment, Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of - folding - as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was.

 

A very different process from making a gateway for either Skimming or Traveling. Rand then follows, and the remainder of the battle occurs in T'A'R. Lanfear vanished in the same way. Since Min is not a channeler, she couldn't sense the twisting. All she saw was that Lanfear vanished. Just like Ba'alzamon vanished in Tear.

[Graendals favourite]

Well, ok, we can't call them inverted.

 

But we know the Forsaken can do what Lanfear did at the Waste, and Moghedien in Samara etc, that is disguise themselves so they can't have been recognised. I think invisibility is no different really, but I'll restrict that out if people find it "not-allowed".

 

However, Bob, the description there is different, but in fires of heaven, in that quote I put before, Rand is saying what he did in Caemlyn, he had done earlier in Tear. It was the same thing, so there were gateways in Tear too. And Rand did in Tear what Ishamael did, so Ishamael stepped through a gateway too.

[Graendals favourite]

:D , I found that inverting actually was already meantioned. Asmodean has taught it to Rand in Pale Shadows. His shield was inverted from female eyes. So we can say the Chosen could walk around with inverted disguises.

[SinisterDeath]

And like i've said man yt imes before Bob, RJ's descriptions from pre-book four, are different then the books after four. Hell you could say somethings are radically different things indeed by there descriptions, but they're infact the same.

 

*O, gonna comment on my "And" at the start of a sentence bob T dwarf? Further making the untopicness of this thread even more aparent? Btw, you can start a sentence with And, but the only rule is, you can't start a sentence with And to much.*

 

Anyways Bob, the thing you have to keep in mind is this.

 

RJ said something along these lines.

Everything you need to know about who killed asmo is in the book he died in. There are also further Clues in the later books, that help prove who did it, as well as how they did it.

So claiming that things newly discovered in the later books, are pointless. . . Is well Pointless! All we know is that it is possible for a female forsaken to Go into the palace undetected. They knew how to do reversed/inverted/hidingtherepowers. We as readers Did not know this, however later books shows that it, as a theory is Viable.

 

It's like claiming someone couldnt have died by poisoning because they got shot with a gun. We may not have known at the time that they were infact poisoned, but that doesn't mean they werent.

[Mugah]

Im gonna think about the Grendal thery. We think that she may have been spying on them phisically by way of invisability. Ok. Sure. She could have been doing this. But moveing while invisable caueses just a ripple that isnt that noticable out of the corner of the eye. So she follows Asmodean then gates infront of him instead of shooting him in the back. That can be rationalized too. Maybe she wanted him to know who was killing him so when the Great Lord grabed him he could tell who did the deed. I think it could of happened even if it seems a little silly to me.

The gate thing - it was argued about many pages ago that gateing in and rushing through is silly and it is but we know there is no need to actually walk through the gate. She\He\Whoever could have channeled a simple weave of air to crush his head and another to drag his body through the gate. Removeing the body to anywhere. The real question is how he was located so precisly at great distance.

 

The True Power or whatever it is called that Morry uses. While it is undetectable by others (maybe) I have no reason to think and highly dought it operates anything like saidin or saidar. It would even be stupid if it did. I think gates and balefire and simple weaves of air cant be done with it. It is undefined. I think ive read that it is directing the Great Lords power. I have no memery of where i got that. Many appoligy if i made a mistake. The Great Lord does other things that are possibly better. attacking playing card and never ending summer/winter Morridin could have just dicided to kill him and without moveing a mussle he did so. But umm this is silly too as i just made up an entire means from speculation. I should probably get to the end of my thoughts before i start typeing but i love debate.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well' date=' ok, we can't call them inverted.

 

But we know the Forsaken can do what Lanfear did at the Waste, and Moghedien in Samara etc, that is disguise themselves so they can't have been recognised. I think invisibility is no different really, but I'll restrict that out if people find it "not-allowed".

 

However, Bob, the description there is different, but in fires of heaven, in that quote I put before, Rand is saying what he did in Caemlyn, he had done earlier in Tear. It was the same thing, so there were gateways in Tear too. And Rand did in Tear what Ishamael did, so Ishamael stepped through a gateway too.[/quote']

 

The principal and technique for Travelling to Tel'aran'rhiod and for Travelling in the waking World is the same. This is proven by the passages from Lord of Chaos that I quoted earlier where Egwene does both.

 

Based on those passages, you can say that what Rand did in Caemlyn was the "same" as he did in Tear. In the same way that what Egwene did when going to Tel'aran'rhiod was the "same" as what she did opening the Gateway to the Waste. The destination being in a different World results in a visually different effect.

[Graendals favourite]

Ok, good, it's proven there. This pretty much means Lanfear went invisible at Falme, and moved around that way too. Min's description doesn't really allow a gateway. So it should be possible to do without the ripples, done correctly, which Rand perhaps wasn't able to do. Or perhaps it was because Rand tried to do it on Egwene, and not himself.

 

The possibility of invisibility as a disguise would make some things easier to explain. Take Graendal's taking Sammael's possessions from his chambers in Illian. It would be very difficult for her posing as anyone be there in/visit his former apartments without Rand or the Asha'man questioning her, even a standlamp that changes positions would be strange.

 

Now, being invisible is not very practical if there's a lot of people about, which explains why it hasn't been manifest at happening. It would be impossible to move in a crowd like that without drawing attention. But if there's not many people about, it is possible to evade them before they bump into you.

 

Just a possible tool for the Chosen, when they find it useful, and I think we've seen it used at Falme already. It should go without the ripples, because if Lanfear wanted to exit without drawing attention to herself, the choice of invisibility is good really only if it works without ripples. She could have posed as a random man, walking out, or made a gateway and left, but she chose to disappear. Perhaps to also spy on others after leaving Min and Rand.

 

Goes to tell you can never know when there's a Forsaken around. I suspect, and it is only my suspection, that Asmodean had noticed something of the like of a Forsaken being there in Cairhien. Not who, but someone doing tricks. This explains why he was suddenly so fearful of leaving Rand's presence, and when Rand did not allow him near, settled for Mat and Aviendha.

[Guest cwestervelt]

No, it isn't proven that she went invisible. The fact is that we have know way to know for certain what she did. Judging by the penchant shown in the next couple of books for the Foresaken to use Tel'aran'rhiod for meetings and such, the chances are just as good that she went there.

 

If Lanfear went to Tel'aran'rhiod, and she opened her Gateway between her and Min, we don't know that Min would see anything. She can't see the weaves, and since the space that Lanfear is now facing would be Tel'aran'rhiod, she may very well just appear to disappear to Min's eyes. We are't told what the back of the Gateway that Egwene created looks like.

[Jedimuppet]

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZZZZZZZZ!

 

She wasn't there. Even invisibly. How many cockamamie unsupported notions are you guys going to invent?

 

Inverted weaves; reversed weves; neither has been introduced yet. Moving masks of invisibility?!?!?!?!

 

I'd rather see you guys pin it on either being psychic or having X-Ray vision. Even a combined conspiracy between Santa' date=' the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Something at least marginally believable if you're 4 years old.[/quote']

 

Are you seriously equating believing someone used an inverted weave to Santa, x-ray vision, etc? Have you read your theories over? At least I haven't equated you to a four year old.

 

Please go back and read RJ's actual quote about the killer being obvious and known to us, and I think you'll see your own logical fallacies.

 

I think we've known that weaves could be hidden since almost the beginning of the books, even if we haven't known what to call them.

J

[Graendals favourite]

No' date=' it isn't proven that she went invisible. The fact is that we have know way to know for certain what she did. Judging by the penchant shown in the next couple of books for the Foresaken to use Tel'aran'rhiod for meetings and such, the chances are just as good that she went there.

 

If Lanfear went to Tel'aran'rhiod, and she opened her Gateway between her and Min, we don't know that Min would see anything. She can't see the weaves, and since the space that Lanfear is now facing would be Tel'aran'rhiod, she may very well just appear to disappear to Min's eyes. We are't told what the back of the Gateway that Egwene created looks like.[/quote']

 

Well, yea, not proven. I was more thinking, when I wrote that, of what you'd written. I'm trying to decide on whether it can be said she went invisible. Because of the what happened. (Wow, it's great to be studying tGH for still relevant issues.)

 

Lanfear first spoke from the door, and Min looked up. Then Lanfear came over to the bed and touched Rand's forehead. After that she revealed her name to Min, told her to take care of him for her, and disappeared.

 

There was no room between Lanfear and the bed for a gateway, of course. Had she already gone through, she of course couldn't have touched Rand.

 

I suppose Lanfear might then have backed off through a gateway, but the wording was: *she spoke* "and she was gone." Later, "One moment she was there, then she was gone." At least there was no mention of her backing away. I guess it's not enough for proof, but I can't fit the wording to her backing away and then disappearing.

 

(Hmm, it also happened, that Lanfear didn't appear until Egwene'd opened the door. Though that doesn't necessarily mean anything.)

[Jedimuppet]

No' date=' it isn't proven that she went invisible. The fact is that we have know way to know for certain what she did. Judging by the penchant shown in the next couple of books for the Foresaken to use Tel'aran'rhiod for meetings and such, the chances are just as good that she went there.

 

If Lanfear went to Tel'aran'rhiod, and she opened her Gateway between her and Min, we don't know that Min would see anything. She can't see the weaves, and since the space that Lanfear is now facing would be Tel'aran'rhiod, she may very well just appear to disappear to Min's eyes. We are't told what the back of the Gateway that Egwene created looks like.[/quote']

 

Well, yea, not proven. I was more thinking, when I wrote that, of what you'd written. I'm trying to decide on whether it can be said she went invisible. Because of the what happened. (Wow, it's great to be studying tGH for still relevant issues.)

 

Lanfear first spoke from the door, and Min looked up. Then Lanfear came over to the bed and touched Rand's forehead. After that she revealed her name to Min, told her to take care of him for her, and disappeared.

 

There was no room between Lanfear and the bed for a gateway, of course. Had she already gone through, she of course couldn't have touched Rand.

 

I suppose Lanfear might then have backed off through a gateway, but the wording was: *she spoke* "and she was gone." Later, "One moment she was there, then she was gone." At least there was no mention of her backing away. I guess it's not enough for proof, but I can't fit the wording to her backing away and then disappearing.

 

(Hmm, it also happened, that Lanfear didn't appear until Egwene'd opened the door. Though that doesn't necessarily mean anything.)

 

Also, the possibility has to be acknowledge that it's not something we're familiar with. Without a channeler seeing her to describe it, we're really groping in the dark.

J