one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Good questions.

 

I agree, a chance meeting could apply to Graendal, just as it could apply to anyone else.

 

 

1) Where did the DF come from?

 

We don't know for sure. It could be somebody who came in with Bashere. It could be one of Rahvin's toadies like Mellar.

 

2) How did he recognize Asmodean?

3) How did Asmodean recognize him?

 

The only possible way is if they had met before under circumstances where each was known as themselves.

 

4) Why did Asmodean immediately equate this DF's presence with the end of his life?

 

I'm not sure he did. Seeing him was a definite, "Oh snap!" moment, but I'm not sure that Asmo knew he was dead, just that he was in deeeep do-do.

 

5) How did the DF do the deed?

 

My guess is a dagger.

 

6) Why was the DF in the area?

 

Unknown. Depends on who it really was.

 

7) How does this theory tie in with the idea of "further hints" in following books and with the idea that the killer should be obvious by the end of TPoD (both of which were stated by RJ since TFoH)?

 

I think the "further hints" have come in the form of disqualifying statements.

 

Demndred's POV where he admits not knowing Asmo was dead until the DO told him, and gives Graendal her alibi due to the meeting with Moghedien. Sammael's meeting with Graendal where he wants to know if she's managed to find out where Asmo is hiding yet. etc. Jordan is showing us who the killer has to be by gradually eliminating all the people whom it is not.

 

Yes, Graendal might lie to Sam as part of her ploy to goad him into attacking Rand. But, what is a more effective goad? Making Rand seem really fearsome by having killed Asmo, Lanfear, and Rahvin all on the same day, or saying, "Yeah. I found the little twerp hiding in Caemlyn with al'Thor, and got rid of him. Why weren't you able to do that?" She wants Sam so angry that he shoots himself in the foot by going after Rand in a rage. Ridiculing him for being cautious unto cowardly seems like a better way to accomplish that.

[Kinslayer_Gaidin]

I really can't read all 39 pages, but it seems Greandal killed him. It can't be any other...

[Paradoxic]

Hiya Kinslayer_Gaidin, here's your "Graendal Dunnit" jersey and cap... Monthly dues are $120 payable in small non-sequential bills directly to me.

 

1) I'd be reticent of assuming it to be anyone already in Caemlyn since it is highly unlikely that Asmodean was ever there before (given Rhavin's territorial nature).

 

2&3) Agreed... but what kind of circumstances would bring that about? The Forsaken do not appear flaunt their identities.

 

4) That 'No!' really made it seem like he knew he was going to die.

 

5) How clever, heh. However, mundane weapons shouldn't have worked against Asmodean. As I've stated before, he could grab enough of the source to fight with (from what Rand says in his POV after the battle) and has been channling long enough to make the entire process instantanous and reflexive, like a part of his body. We know that channelers can go from zero to stopping a dagger in mid air before said dagger could reach the target.

 

6) True... but a valid question none the less.

 

7) Interesting take on 'further hints'. If we assume this, though, we don't end up with the obvious killer by the end of TPoD. We simply end up with all the obvious killers disqualified and no one left who could take the crown by default.

 

Regarding Graendal's goading: she'd not have wanted to anger Sammael personally in such a fashion. She was making jabs, true, but to call into question his ability to kill Asmodean AND state that it was so easy for her to do would most likely have brought Sammael's ire down upon her instead of Rand. She doesn't want to appear a threat so that she can remain close to Sammael while he goes off and gets himself killed... this way she's in a perfect position to take over what is left of his work and use it for herself. Even if she didn't kill Asmodean, that much would be true.

[Bob T Dwarf]

1) I'd be reticent of assuming it to be anyone already in Caemlyn since it is highly unlikely that Asmodean was ever there before (given Rhavin's territorial nature).

 

A DF like Mellar is simply too poisonous to remain in one place for very long. He has most likely been everywhere at one time or another. He's not the only one like that. The gathering we see in the Prologue to TGH may have been a one-time event or it might be something that happens from time-to-time. Kadere's flight from Saldaea is another.

 

Point being that the nastier DF's tend to get around.

 

2&3) Agreed... but what kind of circumstances would bring that about? The Forsaken do not appear flaunt their identities.

 

As we see with Carridin' date=' multiple Forsaken ( and SH as well ) can utilize the same DF for various purposes. Whoever it was could easily have been someone Asmo encountered at any time and virtually anywhere since becoming active.

 

4) That 'No!' really made it seem like he knew he was going to die.

 

Or, possibly that he'd attempted to channel and either been blocked, or had the weave unravel, ala a gholam or Mat's medallion, or Cadsuanes little ornament. Or, as we see later, Shaidar Haran.

5) How clever, heh. However, mundane weapons shouldn't have worked against Asmodean. As I've stated before, he could grab enough of the source to fight with (from what Rand says in his POV after the battle) and has been channling long enough to make the entire process instantanous and reflexive, like a part of his body. We know that channelers can go from zero to stopping a dagger in mid air before said dagger could reach the target.

 

See Ceanne's death in KoD. Vandene was shielded and bound, yet she still plunged a knife through Ceanne's heart. If a little old lady can do it, so can any other motivated killer.

6) True... but a valid question none the less.

 

7) Interesting take on 'further hints'. If we assume this, though, we don't end up with the obvious killer by the end of TPoD. We simply end up with all the obvious killers disqualified and no one left who could take the crown by default.

 

Regarding Graendal's goading: she'd not have wanted to anger Sammael personally in such a fashion. She was making jabs, true, but to call into question his ability to kill Asmodean AND state that it was so easy for her to do would most likely have brought Sammael's ire down upon her instead of Rand. She doesn't want to appear a threat so that she can remain close to Sammael while he goes off and gets himself killed... this way she's in a perfect position to take over what is left of his work and use it for herself. Even if she didn't kill Asmodean, that much would be true.

 

Yes, I feel confident she wants to pick up the pieces after Sam dies. She really doesn't need to fear Sam though. Firstly they are on her turf. She's surrounded by her people and her Wards and the traps she's laid against treachery by another Forsaken. Second, Sam has his hands full. Rand is headed his way. If not today, then surely tomorrow. He's not in a position to fight a two front war, and any move against Graendal will buy him a whole lot of that. She's also his only ally. He might not trust her much, but, he trusts her more than he does any of the others ( poor sap ).

 

When either he attacks Rand or Rand attacks him, whichever one wins will take care of the problem of Sammael for her. If Sam wins, Moridin, Demandred, and the DO to name three, will not be pleased. That will prove fatal for Sam. So, no matter who wins, Sam becomes a former inconvenience.

[Graendals favourite]

I'll clarify on the misconceptions, since they seemed to spring up again. I think it's a misconception the meeting could have been a chance encounter. No way would a chance encounter have led to the events in that paragraph. Be it a closet, hallway, swimming pool, anything. So the encounter happened the only way it could have been something else than chance. As it happens, that points to Graendal. No 'magic', Bob, just follow and ambush by travelling. That's the only way, but it is a good way.

 

Kinslayer_Gaidin, good for you. I will give generous discount on the cap, by the way . In fact, free of charge this time around...

[Bob T Dwarf]

If it were an ambush, Jordan would not have described Asmo as roadkill. Roadkill is what happens when the movable object accidentally meets the irresistable force.

[Graendals favourite]

The roadkill alludes to the psychological factor Graendal used to effect the kill, that is why she ambushed him instead of shooting him from a rooftop. Also, Graendal didn't push the break in this roadkill, she accelerated.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All of you Graendal enthusiasts forget the simple, but, inconvenient facts.

 

1. She had to get there. Rahvin was paranoid. He had Caemlyn trapped to a fair-thee-well. She cannot assume she can get in safely. Even if she somehow knew that Rand had won, and Rahvin's traps had all been disarmed, she could not assume that Rand hadn't set Wards and traps of his own. Callandor and the *'angreal he had taken from Rhuidean and hidden certainly point out that he had the knowledge and ability to do that.

 

So, she has to Travel into the palace. She has to Travel to the point of ambush. She has to balefire Asmo. Then she has to Travel away. All without setting off any alarms or tripping any traps.

 

2. She would need to be either psychic, or have X-Ray Vision. An ambush requires knowledge of where the target is headed. If she observed him in the garden it almost had to be from a higher floor. Too much chance of being seen through a window on the same level. Asmo gets up, walks through the exterior door into the palace... down an interior hallway, not an exterior gallery. Balefire requires that the place where the killing occurs is far enough from that garden that Mat and Aviendha would not notice the flash. How far down an interior hallway, behind an exterior door can one see from a higher window on the other side of the garden? Not very far at all. So, which is it? Is she psychic? Or, does she follow his progress with X-Ray vision?

 

It must be psychic, because he shivers just after entering the hallway, so she must have known where he was headed before he made any concious decision about opening that particular door, which had to be far enough away that the balefire couldn't be seen or detected.

 

Unless, of course, he simply shivers because he's got the willies and needs a good stiff drink to settle his nerves.

 

The encounter was not planned. It was accidental.

[Jedimuppet]

All of you Graendal enthusiasts forget the simple' date=' but, inconvenient facts.

 

1. She had to get there. Rahvin was paranoid. He had Caemlyn trapped to a fair-thee-well. She cannot assume she can get in safely. Even if she somehow knew that Rand had won, and Rahvin's traps had all been disarmed, she could not assume that Rand hadn't set Wards and traps of his own. Callandor and the *'angreal he had taken from Rhuidean and hidden certainly point out that he had the knowledge and ability to do that.

 

So, she has to Travel into the palace. She has to Travel to the point of ambush. She has to balefire Asmo. Then she has to Travel away. All without setting off any alarms or tripping any traps.

 

2. She would need to be either psychic, or have X-Ray Vision. An ambush requires knowledge of where the target is headed. If she observed him in the garden it almost had to be from a higher floor. Too much chance of being seen through a window on the same level. Asmo gets up, walks through the exterior door into the palace... down an interior hallway, not an exterior gallery. Balefire requires that the place where the killing occurs is far enough from that garden that Mat and Aviendha would not notice the flash. How far down an interior hallway, behind an exterior door can one see from a higher window on the other side of the garden? Not very far at all. So, which is it? Is she psychic? Or, does she follow his progress with X-Ray vision?

 

It must be psychic, because he shivers just after entering the hallway, so she must have known where he was headed before he made any concious decision about opening that particular door, which had to be far enough away that the balefire couldn't be seen or detected.

 

Unless, of course, he simply shivers because he's got the willies and needs a good stiff drink to settle his nerves.

 

The encounter was not planned. It was accidental.[/quote']

 

Graendel ran into Asmo accidentally while lurking in Caemlyn for her own reasons. *shrug* since when has she been a wimp? We have a fair idea that she pulls some dangerous moves when she thinks it necessary, and I think she thought something was that necessary. She's got a very strong will, and I'm not sure how anyone could think she'd be afraid.

 

I also think she knew Rahvin was a goner, and that his traps had been disarmed. I think she was willing to take her chances that Rand would be too busy consolidating his people to lay traps so readily. A risk, but a calculated one.

J

[Graendals favourite]

Bob, the first one I consider less consequetial, but i'll asnwer both.

 

1. There are numerous possible ways of getting there. She could just as easily Travel to Caemlyn and walk up to the Palace, the same as Bashere. There are many ways, whichever she would consider most prudent.

 

Once seeing Rand, it will be safe to say the traps are off. Rahvin is obviously dead. Going to Caemlyn can serve no purpose without finding those things out. I don't get this insistance of balefire, just whatever she wanted to kill him with. She is just as able to Skim away with the body as of Balefire. Whatever she chose.

 

2. Certainly though, she wouldn't be stupid enough to go there as herself. There's no reason not to appear as someone else. It may even be possible to go there invisible, which is less inconvenient when less people are around.

 

Be the shiver what it may. However, when you approach a door, it is seen before you take it. There's no indication, nor is it likely, that Asmo would've made a suddenly lunge at a door. Enough time to Travel. And what matter it if she was seen masked. I have to read Lanfear at Falme again to see if it appeared Lanfear was moving invisible.

 

There's loads of ways how this works. The other, the chance encounter doesn't work, however.

 

Edit: Yes, Lanfear moved invisible. tGH: First Claiming:

"Lews Therin was and is mine, girl. Tend him well for me until I come for him." And she was gone.

Min gaped. One moment she was there, then she was gone. Min discovered she was hugging Rand’s unconscious form tightly. She wished she did not feel as if she wanted him to protect her.

 

So that is how Graendal took those things from Sammael's chambers with Rand and the Asha'man about as well.

[Sweet 666]

Give me four weeks, six pounds of butter, a bug lamp, and a pair of slightly used stilts. I will have it all figured out. 8)

[Bob T Dwarf]

What makes any of you think all of Rahvin's traps had been disarmed?

 

Rand's experience in Illian shows that there are some traps that are one-shot affairs. His experience with Callandor shows that there are others that renew or reset. Or, did you all think that Callandor had sat in the Heart of the Stone for 3,000 years unmollested? If it were as simple as springing a trap that never reset, Callandor would have disappeared 2,999.9 years ago.

 

She can have no notion of what type of trap Rahvin had set. She can only be pretty confident that he'd set many. Caemlyn was not a safe place for any channeler.

 

The visit from Lanfear that you mention most likely was a case of stepping into and out of T'A'R in the flesh. Something else that Rahvin would have trapped for, since he was more afraid of treachery from the other Forsaken than he was of an attack by Rand.

 

Graendal has motive. She suffers from a massive and irreconcilable lack of undetectable means and opportunity.

[Graendals favourite]

Hahhah... *smiles a knowing but victorious smile*

 

FoH: To Caemlyn:

"Words spilled from Moghedien's mouth, and her tongue flickered out to wet her lips continually. "Al'Thor means to go after Rahvin. Today. This morning. Because he thinks Rahvin killed Morgase. I don't know whether he did or not, but al'Thor believes it. But Rahvin never trusted Lanfear. He never trusted any of them. Why should he? He thought it all might be some trap set for him, so he has laid a trap of his own. He has set Wards through Caemlyn so if a man channels a spark he will know. Al'Thor will walk right into it. He almost certainly already has. I think he meant to leave Cairhien right after sunrise. I had no part of it. It was none of it my doing. I—""

 

It is wards, attuned to men... And if she didn't know of them, which I wouldn't bet on since Moggy knew, she wouldn't need to fear them either. She has travelled there before, witness the teaparty early in the book.

 

And as for the other, it is clear from Egwene, though that happened after FoH, that Tel'aran'rhiod is accessed through a gateway, in the flesh, and indeed Rand had just been doing that all day. Shall I find the quote... Well, it is in The Threads Burn, page 863 in paperback.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Do you see the word "only" anywhere in there? I don't.

 

What I see is, "But Rahvin never trusted Lanfear. He never trusted any of them. Why should he? He thought it all might be some trap set for him, so he has laid a trap of his own."

 

If he doesn't trust Lanfear specifically, and all of them in general, he'd be pretty stupid to only set Wards and traps for a man.

 

Go back to the Prologue. "If you want to speak with me, send an emissary, and I will decide when and where. And, if." They'd all been put on notice that they were not to approach him themselves.

 

And, it's clear from Rand's pursuit of Baalzy in Tear that there are other methods to enter T'A'R as well. Ballzy certainly didn't open anything identifiable as a gateway, and neither did Rand when he pursued him.

[Graendals favourite]

Not only, but if you're gonna get out of the door, you can't fear a meteor is going to hit you when you first leave the house. This is becoming quite something of a trivial pursuit quiz of knowledge of the world. There are numerous wards that you cannot do anything else while they are in place.

 

And where do you get that there were traps? It is much clear that Rahvin orchestrated the show himself, which was easy indeed since he had warning from the wards. But there was no traps sprung there, else they'd have been sprung immediately after the gateway was opened.

 

Graendal has much better knowledge of the world than we, though.

 

Perhaps Graendal would not fear to break the admonishment, especially since Graendal and Rahvin had to have some coordination of their actions, whether to prepare for Illian or Lanfear's imminent betrayal. Not that they'd trust each other any more than Lanfear.

 

Rand didn't know much of what he was doing. I'm actually susprised Ishamael used saidin, and not the True Power then. But there was clear indication of a gateway all the same. Rand "twisted reality to make a door to somewhere else."

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, he did. Note how the description differs from a gateway though. No slash in the air. No rotating open. They both just "twisted reality" and vanished into T'A'R. Nothing opened. Nothing closed. Just twist and vanish.

 

Then, once Baalzy was dead, both Rand and the body popped back into the real world all on their own.

[Graendals favourite]

... I should have posted the quote earlier, only it's long so I decided against it. However, before the Tear quote, Rand it is said clearly that Rand did what Ishamael did, and that is how he knew how to do it.

 

The quote: "Rahvin had not gone that way, though, and he had not died in that blast of balefire. A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognised it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel--he knew now that was what he had done--into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.

He wove another now. A gateway, an opening at least, a hole in reality. It was not blackness on the other side. In fact, if he had not known the way was there, if he could not have seen the weave of it, he might not have known. There before him were the same arches opening onto the same courtyard and fountain, the same columned walk. For an instant the neatly rounded holes his balefire had made in arch and column wavered, filled, then were holes again. Wherver that gateway led, it was to somewhere else, a reflection of the Royal Palace as once it had been a reflection of the Stone of Tear. Vaguely he regretted not talking to Asmodean about it while he had the chance, but he had never been able to speak of that day to anyone. It did not matter. On that day he had carried Callandor, but the angreal in his pocket had already proved enough to harry Rahvin."

 

So there, Rand and Ishamael used a gateway in Tear.

[Bob T Dwarf]

And where do you get that there were traps? It is much clear that Rahvin orchestrated the show himself' date=' which was easy indeed since he had warning from the wards. But there was no traps sprung there, else they'd have been sprung immediately after the gateway was opened.[/quote']

 

That's pretty much how it went. Rand and those around him were the first off the platform. The lightning struck before Rand could get a shield fully formed.

[Graendals favourite]

What? Rand opened the gateway, then the five hundred or what Aiel went out before him and spread out, before he came out into Caemlyn and closed the gateway. Only then did anything happen.

[Bob T Dwarf]

" A residue hung in the air' date=' a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognised it. [b']Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel[/b]--he knew now that was what he had done--into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.

He wove another now. A gateway, an opening at least, a hole in reality. It was not blackness on the other side. In fact, if he had not known the way was there, if he could not have seen the weave of it, he might not have known. There before him were the same arches opening onto the same courtyard and fountain, the same columned walk.

 

They used something functionally equivalent to a gateway in that it connected two places. But physically it is different from both a Skimming Gateway and a Travelling Gateway. Egwene only knows what she imagines a gateway would look like and do.

[Graendals favourite]

Underline the gateway there too. Rand knows what a gateway is, and a gateway is involved. So you cannot simply vanish from his world and appear in the World of Dreams, but you open a gateway there.

 

It is a different thing, understandably, since The World of Dreams is not in this world, exactly, but going there involves a gateway.

 

So Lanfear couldn't simply vanish into Tel'aran'rhiod, she wove a mask of invisibility, inverted it, and left Min.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What? Rand opened the gateway' date=' then the five hundred or what Aiel went out before him and spread out, before he came out into Caemlyn and closed the gateway. Only then did anything happen.[/quote']

 

That could go either way.

 

A Ward would certainly trigger an alarm as soon as the gateway formed. A trap might be triggered when the gateway closed. Be kind of silly to fire your artillery onto open ground before the enemy steps out of the gateway. He's not rigging a scarecrow to frighten his enemies away, he's rigging a trap to kill them as soon as they step onto the battlefield. But, I can see how it could also be interpreted as Rahvin firing the lighning manually.

[SinisterDeath]

Umm, bob you do realize, that the first 3 books, and the last 8 books, are rather different in there descriptions of the one power right? Those were gateways/skimming that were used, not something completely different. It just happens that RJ has changed his descriptions of them. There are numerous cases of this through out the series, that I don't feel the need of proving, since it should be self evident.

[Graendals favourite]

I think somewhere it's stated that having such wards you can't have something else there too, or was it just different wards. I know Moiraine's wards in Shadar Logoth and Malkier were such.

 

Sammael's wards were the like of Rahvin's, and Rand didn't fear to go to Illian because of that effect of there then not being traps, but I don't remember an exact mention now. (If there were better ones, Sammael would've used those.)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Umm' date=' bob you do realize, that the first 3 books, and the last 8 books, are rather different in there descriptions of the one power right? Those were gateways/skimming that were used, not something completely different. It just happens that RJ has changed his descriptions of them. There are numerous cases of this through out the series, that I don't feel the need of proving, since it should be self evident.[/quote']

 

What part of, "Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel." is giving you trouble?