one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Guest cwestervelt]

Regarding the three oaths: This question was discussed in the FAQ as well and they found this quote from Alanna Mosvani, whose Warder Owein was murdered by White Cloaks (she's talking to Perrin): "'Had I been there, I could have defended him, and myself, with the Power... the Children are very nearly as vile as men can be, short of Darkfriends, but they are not Darkfriends, and for that reason they are safe from the Power except in self-defense'" [TSR: 31, Assurances, 347]

 

I knew there was a point in the book that had an Aes Sedai specifically include Darkfriends as a valid target for the power as a weapon... :D

 

The fact that Alanna said it explains why I couldn't find it. I was looking a Bera/Kiruna statement in the Dumai's Wells aftermath. I didn't want to count the Shaido instance as it was a Rand PoV with no verification from Moiraine. That is why I went with the Question of the Week where RJ himself says "Shadowspawn or Darkfriends". All together it is quite conclusive that there is nothing to prevent bushwhacking when dealing with the Foresaken and Asmodean was fair game for any Aes Sedai that would see and recognize him.

[JRJ]

Asmodean does not know who Taim is.

 

And that is based upon what besides your opinion?

 

Asmodean has no reason to fear Taim even if they had met before.

 

Could you explain your reasoning? Why wouldn't Asmodean fear a Dreadlord with enough power to crush him at the moment? Afterall' date=' he should have assumed that word of his betrayal would filter down eventually...

 

The Dark One never ever ordered Asmodean's death according to Robert Jordan so how would Taim know where to go and who to kill?

 

Taim followed Bashere to the wine pantry. After Bashere left, it was completely by accident that Asmodean walked in through the same door.

 

There was no DO involvement at all.

 

If you want more hard questions to answer, read this: http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html#taim because I don't feel like cut'n'pasting them myself.

 

Good, because quoting the FAQ for a debate is pretty classy. :roll:

[Guest cwestervelt]

Asmodean does not know who Taim is.

 

And that is based upon what besides your opinion?

 

Asmodean has no reason to fear Taim even if they had met before.

 

Could you explain your reasoning? Why wouldn't Asmodean fear a Dreadlord with enough power to crush him at the moment? Afterall' date=' he should have assumed that word of his betrayal would filter down eventually...

 

The Dark One never ever ordered Asmodean's death according to Robert Jordan so how would Taim know where to go and who to kill?

 

Taim followed Bashere to the wine pantry. After Bashere left, it was completely by accident that Asmodean walked in through the same door.

 

There was no DO involvement at all.

 

If you want more hard questions to answer, read this: http://www.darkfriends.net/wheel/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html#taim because I don't feel like cut'n'pasting them myself.

 

Good, because quoting the FAQ for a debate is pretty classy. :roll:

 

The burden of proof isn't on proving that Asmodean and Taim didn't know each other, it is on proving that they did. Barring evidence which indicates they did know each other, and there isn't any, it is perfectly acceptable and logical to assume they did not. Furthermore, Kadere, who was actually travelling with Asmodean for several months had no knowledge of Asmodean's true identity and status as a Foresaken. Asmodean wasn't advertising.

 

Asmodean had no reason to fear Taim because, contrary to your assumption, there is no validated proof that Taim is a Darkfriend let alone a Dreadlord. (If you wish to debate that, then please do so under the "Dreadlord's" thread where such a debate already is taking place. I only mention it here in rebuttal of your statements.) We don't even know that Asmodean had any reason to suspect that Taim was a Darkfriend. Rand and company (Asmodean included) are already in the waste before we learn that Taim is freed from Aes Sedai custody.

 

There is no evidience that Taim was in Caemlyn at the time, let alone following Bashere around. All evidence is that he didn't arrive in Caemlyn until that point. Taim is never even seen on screen until the next book, after Asmodean is dead.

 

Also, as has been stated before, we do not know that Asmodean was ever in the same part of the palace as Bashere was. Bashere had wine and glasses yes. Asmodean was looking for the pantry and wine yes. That is all we know. There is nothing that says Asmodean ever found the pantries.

[Paradoxic]

Well, lets try a different path, huh?

 

Up to the point in FoH when Asmodean dies, why do you think that Asmodean is a Dark Friend? We have no first hand encounters with him. We have nothing supporting the idea that he is evil... he did nothing better or worse than any other false dragons, such as Logain.

 

Another point - over a month pass between Asmodean's death and Taim's first appearance. That's a long time to hang around doing nothing, isn't it?

 

Lets also ask how Taim and Asmodean met? That's an interesting issue, right?

 

Also, why would Asmodean fear Taim? The only way for Taim to know Asmodean is if they met and he, for some crazy reason, told Taim his identity (something he doesn't do with Kadere, by the way). IF we assume that Taim is a darkfriend, why would Asmodean fear him? As far as Taim could know, Asmodean is doing his own thing. Why would a darkfriend attack a Forsaken? More importantly, why would the Forsaken assume the Darkfriend is going to kill him on sight? That's what I meant by "why would Asmodean fear Taim".

 

As for quoting the FAQ... have you read it? People seem to assume the FAQ is a piece of junk that some crackpot put together. It is, infact, a collection of theories and quotes from the books regarding a huge range of topics. It was formed from the discussions of the Robert Jordan USENET group... a forum that has been around long enough to have had this same argument since FoH came out. You can argue with their theories all you want... but you can't argue over the quotes from the book and they use them quite a lot.

[ronoc/booms]

 

We know that Aginor and Balthamel are among the first Forsaken that we meet. We know nothing about the order in which they awakened and became active. Anath/Semirhage was in place as Tuon's Truthspeaker before tEotW started. Sammael may have been active for some time by then' date=' as well.

[i']

Demandred is perfectly willing to do whatever creates the most chaos.[/i] False Dragons are good for doing that.

 

]

 

 

this is untrue, we are told that aginor and balthamel were the first to awaken because, they were at the shallowest point of the bore, we see this as they are the only forsaken to age, and its mentioned they were able to see the world in their sleep though only certain parts at certain times.

 

i [/i]personally[/i] think this is unlikely, as because of all the forsaken it is always Demandred who[/i]hated Lews Therin, and we know that the forsaken have many flaws in character, i don't think demandred would be able to swallow his pride enough to be able to pose as Taim. but saying that i would think Taim was Demandred too if RJ hadn't said he wasn't

[SinisterDeath]

Wasn't Ishmale partially free/containted at the same time? So, in a way, techincally the first one out?

 

Anywho.... Completely crack pot Idea here...

What If, It was Lewis Therin, who killed Asmodean? Who better to freak asmo out, and leave no evidence behind?! If you saw, "your" old rival from 3000 years ago, whom you thought was long dead, and reborn, wouldnt you be a bit freaked out?

Though of course, that can't be true, unless it was an Illuion!

[Jellybelly]

I am glad you modified that post... There is no way in hell Lews Therin could have done it, since he has no body of his own.

[SinisterDeath]

ehh, that was what I had orginally intended to say, but I hit enter to fast with out re-reading it. :P

Also, the "illusion" would be made by Bela. You DONT want to know how Asmo died in that theory!!

[Guest pheobe sedai]

asmodean became one of the forsaken did he not? therefore that spells darkfriend to me and there is only one faint posibility that it could have been lews therin who took him out...

only on the condition that he was actualy able to wrestle the the one power away from rand in a weak moment and take over the body that happens to house both of their minds

[Bob T Dwarf]

How do you figure that? Bel'al' date=' Sammael, and Rahvin, all showed up post [u']The Eye of the World[/u] and were already in full control or their country of choice be the time the Dragon Reborn occurs.

 

High Lord Whosis ( Bel'al ) and Lord Brend ( Sammael ) both are mentioned as arriving suddenly and rising to prominence over about a 6 month period of time. Rahvin doesn't show up until after Rand's first visit to Caemlyn.

 

As far as Anath goes, see: http://www.sevenspokes.com/chronology/3rd-ne.html the first entry for 998 NE. Semirhage would have needed some setup first. You don't just wander in to see the Empress. She would have needed bona fides in order to be allowed into her presence. Once she got in, Compulsion may not have been as easy as you imply. Without proper preparation Semi might have found herself compelled instead. The Crystal Throne itself is described in such a way that it is obviously a Compulsion angreal. Semi doesn't just blast her way in until she decides to do away with the entire Imperial Family and install Suroth in their stead. While compelling someone to provide the introduction and bona fides is realatively easy for someone like Semi, it would have needed to be done before Neferi died.

 

Semirhage has been awake and active for far longer than you think.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

this is untrue' date=' we are told that aginor and balthamel were the first to awaken because, they were at the shallowest point of the bore, we see this as they are the only forsaken to age, and its mentioned they were able to see the world in their sleep though only certain parts at certain times.

[/quote']

 

We are "told" no such thing. That is merely your inference from their description of being nearest the surface and the most timeworn.

 

We know nothing about who awakened when, except the trail their alter egos leave behind.

[Guest cwestervelt]

With regards to the crystal throne are you referring to the statements that talk about the how it inspires awe and wonder in the people who sit on it? I don't see where that provides a defense against Compulsion by a powerful person. Especially not when the evidence, an untrained person being appointed when there is already a trained replacement ready is there. We already know that the Foresaken can move around just about anywhere without being see, so she wouldn't have much problem getting access to the Empress either.

 

Circa: Neferi, High Lady Tuon's Soe'feia, dies unexpectedly in an accident. She is replaced by Anath, who is chosen by the Empress herself. [WH-H-323]

 

Did you notice the "circa" at the start of text. Its just an approximation, not a definite. They have it at the earliest it could have occurred, based on Tuon's statement of "less than 2 years" but that doesn't say it did occur then.

 

While ronoc/booms may have exagerated a little by saying we were told that Aginor and Balthamel were released first, we were told enough to determine that. RJ even states in his blog that they were trapped nearer to the surface than everyone, near enough that they had an intermittent view of the world outside. Because of there position, they would have had the easiest time breaking free, so they would logically be the first to emerge.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't think logic plays much part.

 

All 13 of the Trapped Forsaken were in the Pit of Doom when the Bore was sealed. Aginor and Balthamel were somehow "trapped near the surface". Ishamael was somehow not trapped completely... kinda like being stuck in a revolving door. Never really completely inside and never really completely outside.

 

Personally, I don't care who awoke when. I'm just relating the facts reported in the books.

 

Neferi died a fair while before the Seanchan launched their invasion. Anath was appointed Tuon's Truthspeaker shortly after Neferi's death. Getting into position to do that took some lead time. These are greedy, stupid people, not gods. They can't snap their fingers and immediately make the world the way they want. They have to do a certain amount of grunt work first.

[SinisterDeath]

Who is to say, they werent able to set these motions into motion, while they were trapped?

[JRJ]

The burden of proof isn't on proving that Asmodean and Taim didn't know each other' date=' it is on proving that they did.[/quote']

 

To what end? I'm not trying to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Taim killed Asmodean. There is obviously no way anyone could do that for any suspect. Heck, most Graendal supporters will tell you that Graendal's best virtue as a suspect is that she has nothing against her. To condem Taim soley because we can't prove that something happened off screen is just plain wrong.

 

Afterall, the murderer was not revealed, so why not in cover-up of a relationship by RJ? I'd rather have SOME reason for Jordan to have concealed Asmodean's killer and lead to this chase.

 

Barring evidence which indicates they did know each other, and there isn't any, it is perfectly acceptable and logical to assume they did not.

 

You can believe that if you want. I just happen to believe that it is perfectly acceptable and logical to assume they did. If Taim were the actual killer, I would say that the murder would be proof of a prior relationship, in addition to other things.

 

Furthermore, Kadere, who was actually travelling with Asmodean for several months

 

Heh. You are way off. Most Taim theories suggest that Asmodean TAUGHT Taim. I don't really believe that, but Taim is no ordinary Darkfriend.

 

Asmodean had no reason to fear Taim because, contrary to your assumption, there is no validated proof that Taim is a Darkfriend let alone a Dreadlord. (If you wish to debate that, then please do so under the "Dreadlord's" thread where such a debate already is taking place. I only mention it here in rebuttal of your statements.)

 

I sure hope you are joking. Taim's darkfriend status has been proven, unless you are taking about pre-LOC? Pre-Loc you can see a pattern begining, as I have mention in my previous posts.

 

We don't even know that Asmodean had any reason to suspect that Taim was a Darkfriend.

 

Lol. I doubt that very much. Knowing all we know now, he would have almost had to have known about a new Dreadlord, or at least one that was working for Moridin. Asmodean should have known that the Dark setup Taim in Saldaea at the very least.

 

Rand and company (Asmodean included) are already in the waste before we learn that Taim is freed from Aes Sedai custody.

 

How does that even matter? Up until Asmodean was defeated in Rhuidean, he could use TAR to meet with other Forsaken and learn about Black Ajah plots.

 

There is no evidience that Taim was in Caemlyn at the time,

 

Ah, but there is solid evidence that Taim was in Andor at the time. Certainly, that makes him a better suspect than Graendal, Sammael, Lanfear, Moiraine, Belal, Chuck Norris, etc.

 

let alone following Bashere around.

 

Just a theory based upon following clues. Bashere had some wine, Asmodean was looking for wine. Isn't it possible they came through that same door within a reasonably short time frame?

 

All evidence is that he didn't arrive in Caemlyn until that point.

 

No, there is no evidence at all. I asked Jordan personally wiether or not he could tell us ANYTHING about what Taim did before meeting Rand for the first time. He said categorically no. And then smiled.

 

There is absolutely no evidence either way, and I think that is because Jordan wanted to conceal Taim as a Darkfriend during that time period. Jordan is also a master at the art of suspense.

 

Taim is never even seen on screen until the next book, after Asmodean is dead.

 

So what?

 

Also, as has been stated before, we do not know that Asmodean was ever in the same part of the palace as Bashere was.

 

Asmodean certainly wasn't looking through the servant's quarters to get some wine. Asmodean was feet away from Rand when he died, and Bashere had to have come from the gate, get the wine from the pantry, go up the stairs to the entrance of the throne room ~ supposedly facing towards the main gate. That places it within reason, so it's possible.

 

How many other suspects can you honestly say have a solid motive to accidentally walk into Asmodean?

 

Bashere had wine and glasses yes. Asmodean was looking for the pantry and wine yes. That is all we know. There is nothing that says Asmodean ever found the pantries.

 

It's up to you wiether or not you connect the dots. I think it is MUCH better than anything else we have.

[JRJ]

Well' date=' lets try a different path, huh?

 

Up to the point in FoH when Asmodean dies, why do you think that Asmodean is a Dark Friend? We have no first hand encounters with him. We have nothing supporting the idea that he is evil... he did nothing better or worse than any other false dragons, such as Logain.[/quote']

 

Joiya states that Taim is to be broken free, and he is. There is also correlary information in : Moraine's original seriousness at hearing Joiya's information, the 3 letters she sent to the WT, the fact there is no knowledge of the Black Ajah plot in the WT suggesting BA censorship of those letters, the unusually high amount of Trollocs in Saldaea at the same time Taim is causing trouble, the fact that Mazrim Taim disappears in Gaebril (Rahvin) controlled Andor.

 

Another point - over a month pass between Asmodean's death and Taim's first appearance. That's a long time to hang around doing nothing, isn't it?

 

He wasn't 'hanging around.' He fleed Caemlyn and Rand until he was told by the Dark to go back to Caemlyn for amnesty. He was then given the Seal to gain Rand's trust, the Dark hoping Taim would be able to get close to Rand ... ala Asmodean, but not in betrayal.

 

I think Taim is surprised at just how well it worked.

 

Lets also ask how Taim and Asmodean met? That's an interesting issue, right?

 

I'm glad you do ask :) I think Asmodean was in Saldea before coming to the Aiel Waste, directing added Trollocs to attack in coordination with Taim's False Dragon. I think it was part of the Dark's plot to bring the Borderlands into chaos, and it almost worked.

 

Also, why would Asmodean fear Taim? The only way for Taim to know Asmodean is if they met and he, for some crazy reason, told Taim his identity (something he doesn't do with Kadere, by the way). IF we assume that Taim is a darkfriend, why would Asmodean fear him? As far as Taim could know, Asmodean is doing his own thing. Why would a darkfriend attack a Forsaken?

 

He would fear any agent or pawn of another Forsaken. His own pre-death thoughts revealed that he knew the dark would kill him.

 

Speaking of which, Taim was definately linked to someone higher up, like Moridin. Asmodean must have thought that messing was Taim was a bad idea ~ to say the least. If he knew what Joiya knew, he would have stayed clear of Taim even if he had just saw him at a Darkfriend social ~ ala Great Hunt prologue. He would have known that Taim was NOT to be messed with.

 

More importantly, why would the Forsaken assume the Darkfriend is going to kill him on sight? That's what I meant by "why would Asmodean fear Taim".

 

I understand what you mean. I just think that Asmodean would have known much more about what was going on in the Dark than you are giving him credit for. Asmodean should have clearly known that Taim was Ishmael's pet project.

 

The only question I see is if Asmodean ever helped Taim directly in Saldaea. Perhaps he coordinated Trolloc attacks to aid Taim? A 2 front war would increase the likelihood that Taim would win.

 

As for quoting the FAQ... have you read it?

 

Yes, many times.

 

People seem to assume the FAQ is a piece of junk that some crackpot put together.

 

Honestly, that is the best description yet :lol:

 

It is, infact, a collection of theories and quotes from the books regarding a huge range of topics. It was formed from the discussions of the Robert Jordan USENET group... a forum that has been around long enough to have had this same argument since FoH came out. You can argue with their theories all you want... but you can't argue over the quotes from the book and they use them quite a lot.

 

Well, good for them.

[Graendals favourite]

To what end? I'm not trying to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Taim killed Asmodean. There is obviously no way anyone could do that for any suspect. Heck, most Graendal supporters will tell you that Graendal's best virtue as a suspect is that she has nothing against her. To condem Taim soley because we can't prove that something happened off screen is just plain wrong.

 

kröhöm (or whatever clearing the throat is in english), that isn't what I've done, though I'd be surprised if there was something against Graendal.

 

*presses play*

*picks up the posters*

*Opens curtains; No-accidental-encounter-result-in-that-death; waves hands; Must've-been-ambush; more hand and foot waving; It-must've-been-Graendal-Travelling; strips naked to ensure maximal artistic effect; runs around jumping like a madman till he annoyingly long song ends; bows and draws curtains*

[Guest cwestervelt]

I sure hope you are joking. Taim's darkfriend status has been proven, unless you are taking about pre-LOC? Pre-Loc you can see a pattern begining, as I have mention in my previous posts.

 

I repeat, please read "The new dreadlords" thread.

 

For the rest, I don't even know where to begin. You've got quite an impressive series of unprovable (and unfounded) events there.

 

Lets just take one point.

 

I'm glad you do ask I think Asmodean was in Saldea before coming to the Aiel Waste' date=' directing added Trollocs to attack in coordination with Taim's False Dragon. I think it was part of the Dark's plot to bring the Borderlands into chaos, and it almost worked. [/quote']

 

What makes you think that Asmodean had anything to do with the increased Trolloc activity in Saldaea? Asmodean wasn't a general, he was the administrative type. We don't even have anything, beyond your speculation, that puts him anywhere near the Borderlands.

[Bob T Dwarf]

During the entire winter that is just ending when tEotW begins there was unprecedented Trolloc activity throughout all of the Borderlands, not just Saldaea.

 

We've never learned why. Saying that it was all in support of Taim seems to be stretching things a goodly might. It was likely only being done to ratchet up anxiety in the world. To prepare the ground for the larger coming conflict.

 

Saying that the BA would only try to break free a False Dragon who was already a DF is also a stretch. They'd support anyone who increases the level of chaos in the world.

 

Making Taim Ba'alzamon's protege is also a stretch. IF Taim is Dark, he's more likely to be a protege of Demandred than Baalzy.

 

Making someone who has not yet made an entrance onstage the "intuitively obvious to a casual reader" killer isn't even in it. None of those we hadn't yet met is any more intuitively obvious than any of the others. Thus, all such are disqualified.

 

Otherwise, let's make it Santa Claus/Kris Kringle/Father Christmas. We haven't met him yet either, but Santa is given. He's universal to every Age. There will always be a Santa. Asmo had been a very bad boy after all. A lump of coal in his stocking just wasn't gonna cut it. Santa really needed to send a message to all the misbehaving children that they needed to shape up, OR ELSE. Therefore, Asmo had to go. Distateful as that was, Santa knew he was the only man/elf for the job. He could get in and out totally undetected.

 

Yup, Santa did it. :roll:

[JRJ]

For the rest' date=' I don't even know where to begin. You've got quite an impressive series of unprovable (and unfounded) events there.

[/quote']

 

That is why it is called a Theory and not a Fact.

 

I don't care about how Taim met Asmodean nearly as much as how Taim ended up killing Asmodean. If you have no counterargument for Taim killing Asmodean, then so be it.

 

We've never learned why. Saying that it was all in support of Taim seems to be stretching things a goodly might. It was likely only being done to ratchet up anxiety in the world. To prepare the ground for the larger coming conflict.

 

Whatever. You can choose to see it as a possible clue or not.

 

As long as it's possible for Taim to have met Asmodean' date=' that is all that matters.

 

Saying that the BA would only try to break free a False Dragon who was already a DF is also a stretch. They'd support anyone who increases the level of chaos in the world.

 

Bull. They didn't try to free Logain.

 

Making Taim Ba'alzamon's protege is also a stretch. IF Taim is Dark, he's more likely to be a protege of Demandred than Baalzy.

 

Based upon what evidence?

 

I feel it more likely that Taim was training before the rest of the Forsaken were released, and that leaves only Ishy. Why do you think Demandred had anything to do with Taim before LOC?

 

Making someone who has not yet made an entrance onstage the "intuitively obvious to a casual reader" killer isn't even in it.

 

You are misinformed then. Jordan never said it was "intuitively obvious to the casual observer" until TPOD. Certainly, Taim has been on stage by that point.

[Guest cwestervelt]

For the rest' date=' I don't even know where to begin. You've got quite an impressive series of unprovable (and unfounded) events there.[/quote']That is why it is called a Theory and not a Fact.

 

I don't care about how Taim met Asmodean nearly as much as how Taim ended up killing Asmodean. If you have no counterargument for Taim killing Asmodean, then so be it.

 

The "how Taim met Asmodean" is rather important to the "how Taim ended up killing Asmodean." Or are you now saying that Taim is just a sociopath that routinely kills people for walking through doors?

 

You are not presenting a theory. A theory is a reasonable assumption that based on verifiable facts but where the available data is insufficient to come to a definite conclusion. You don't have a single fact that you are using as a basis for a connection between Asmodean and Taim.

[Jellybelly]

No, you are misinformed, JRJ. Jordan has said that all the clues we need are included up to The Fires of Heaven.

 

And second, I thought it was common knowledge to any educated person that a theory has to be founded on evidence, not on fancy.

[ronoc/booms]

eggwene, you've set match to dry grass!

 

ok, so maybe i did go a bit over board, but that Demandred has ALWAYS been Taim is just unlikely! now, santa....you could be on to something there...

 

now, i know that JRJ, and Bob are going to take my head off, but, could it have possibly been Lews Therin?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Wellllllllllllllllll....

 

It's a known fact that Lews Therin is as mad as a March Hare. He thinks he IS Santa Claus. He has the red suit and everything. He can wield the OP like nobody before or since.

 

So.... it could be that it really was LTT during one of his dress-up delusionary periods.

[JRJ]

No' date=' you are misinformed, JRJ. Jordan has said that all the clues we need are included up to The Fires of Heaven.[/quote']

 

Wow, you are dense. All clues that are needed and what is obvious is two different things.

 

And second, I thought it was common knowledge to any educated person that a theory has to be founded on evidence, not on fancy.

 

It is. It's founded on Taim being the only suspect in Andor with means and motive to kill Asmodean.