one word....Asmodean..... ;-)

[Talya]

Weel the new boards just wouldn't be the same without this thread.....its a good place to rant after a day at work...lol

 

Anyway my vote is in.....Lanfear of course

 

Majsju

The point against Moiraine is not that she is supposed to be dead, but that she's gone. She's held by the finns, just like Lanfear was. And being held usually means you're not allowed to come and go as you wish, even if you only feel you must go and kill someone.

 

 

Thats just it though maj they can wish.... :D

[Jason Denzel]

This thread officially makes these forums a "Wheel of Time" forum. No WoT forum is complete without an over-played Asmodean disucssion

 

:)

 

J

[Guest Egwene]

lol...thanks for the endorsement, Jason :D

 

(By the way, why is that egg of yours not hatching???)

[Guest Majsju]

Thats just it though maj they can wish.... :D

 

A wish still means inventing the entire scenario with any of them first being released, managing to sneak into the palace without being seen, a palace full of Aiel who are describes as hearing and seeing better than any other folks, and then returning volunteerly to being imprisoned.

 

Granted, it could work with Lanfear, since most things hints at her dying at some point, she could have dropped dead after disposing of the body. Of course, that's also inventing stuff.

[Graendals favourite]

Besides, Majsju, in WH Lanfear thought of having been held by the Aelfinn AND the Eelfinn. Even had Lanfear had any wishes after bringing fire to the place, she was held by also the snakes.

[Guest Egwene]

ok...I am getting exited here...just read Mat's doorframe adventure again. I knew that something about what everyone's been posting kept bugging me.

 

It is not a question you are allowed to ask. You have to state your Need!! So Moiraine being asked 'What is it you need?' ....wouldn't she have said: a)to defeat the shadow...or b)to help the Dragon Reborn....

 

and the Finns could have interpreted this in many different ways.....

 

PS.: having had visions about it....maybe c)to be left in the tower of G...?

[Guest Majsju]

ok...I am getting exited here...just read Mat's doorframe adventure again. I knew that something about what everyone's been posting kept bugging me.

 

It is not a question you are allowed to ask. You have to state your Need!! So Moiraine being asked 'What is it you need?' ....wouldn't she have said: a)to defeat the shadow...or b)to help the Dragon Reborn....

 

and the Finns could have interpreted this in many different ways.....

 

PS.: having had visions about it....maybe c)to be left in the tower of G...?

 

 

Still invention. Nothing says she ever was allowed to make any request, which seems very doubtful in itself, considering the way she and Lanfear entered. Then there's the motive, if she could ask almost anything she wanted, why the heck ask for being allowed to kill a domesticized, helpless forsaken who can be useful to Rand? Instead of asking for the ability to kill one of those remainign forsaken who actually pose a real threat to rand. Like Sammael, who Moiraine had been quite insistant on Rand attacking. She may not approve of Asmo, but at least that's a forsaken who's been somewhat tamed, who Rand knows where he is, and who Rand apparently knows how to deal with.

[Guest Egwene]

We don't know that their mode of entry would have affected/bothered the Finns. They seem to be fairly desperate for visitors and it seems that they only get whatever it is they want when their 'guests' actually give answers.

 

I specifically did not suggest that Moiraine wished/wanted/needed Asmodean dead. If her answer to 'what do you need' was 'to defeat the shadow' it could have let to 'need to help Rand' and the Finns interpretation could have been to eliminate the shadow closest to Rand.

 

All I am trying to do is put Moiraine into Mat's situation and trying to substitute his words with what she might have said....

[Guest Majsju]

Ie inventing stuff.

[Graendals favourite]

But we know the finns cannot be trusted, and that the wishing is a trade. Since Moiraine and Lanfear had already violated the terms, not to bring fire, there would be no reason not to keep them as slaves, especially since they had ensured no one else was coming in from that door anymore.

 

In a scenario, it would even be logical for Moiraine, who had hope, to survive, and Lanfear, who didn't, to die in an escape.

[Guest Egwene]

Maj, I am not sure what it is that I am supossedly inventing....everything is based on information contained in the books. If what I am doing is inventing than every Graendal thread I have ever seen is equally 'invented'.

 

As for them bringing fire...His guide asks him if he carries iron, or instruments of music, or devices for making light. Where does fire come into it?

[Graendals favourite]

Aah, sorry, I'd remembered it was fire they didn't like for burning, instead of making the light. But, I read the passage with Moiraine and Lanfear disappearing, and: The doorway made bright light. A flash of white light that did not stop and lightnings.

 

But about the inventing-- Graendal doesn't need any inventing, only sound conclusions of how the murder must have happened to make sense.

[Guest Egwene]

Beauty and sound conclusion lie in the eyes of the beholder....... :lol:

 

Alas, I have to go to bed...but I am looking forward to coming back and see if you've come up with lots of non-invented stuff....

[Guest Majsju]

Maj' date=' I am not sure what it is that I am supossedly inventing....everything is based on information contained in the books. If what I am doing is inventing than every Graendal thread I have ever seen is equally 'invented'.

 

As for them bringing fire...His guide asks him if he carries iron, or instruments of music, or devices for making light. Where does fire come into it?[/quote']

 

You're inventing how Moiraine or Lanfear could get to Caemlyn, and how they got back to finnland. From the info we have, the only entrance/exit is through the doorways or the tower of Ghenjei. The doorway from Rhuidean is destroyed,we don't know if there's any connection between the finns so that the doorway in Tear can even be used.

You're inventing motive, both Lanfear and Moiraine would have other targets if they got the chance to kill one person of their own chosing. Any of those two as the killer would most certainly require that they went there with the intent to kill Asmo. That does not fit with any of them.

 

Motive and possibility are fundamental when solving a murder case, Lanfear and Moiraine requires inventing information to reach that.

[Graendals favourite]

Alas, I have to go to bed...but I am looking forward to coming back and see if you've come up with lots of non-invented stuff....

 

To bed I'll go too, but here's the non-invented stuff:

 

It doesn't make sense for a forsaken to go about in the Palace unmasked. For a forsaken it doesn't make sense to kill Asmodean without knowing whether he's alone, let alone drop the mask when Asmodean enters. Even if a forsaken should be temporarily unmasked and surprised, it does not make sense for him or her to risk all his plans for a chancy thing of fighting Asmodean AND the Light knows who at the same time.

 

For non-channeller, it doesn't make sense to be able to kill asmodean in that configuration, being as surprised as Asmodean and not near enough for physical contact in that time.

 

For a channeller not able to mask, it is still not sensible to risk his or hers plans engaging in a fight with one of the Forsaken, instead of trying to flee.

 

That covers everything except a person who already knew Asmodean was coming, and coming alone. The only people who could have possibly known that were Graendal, Mesaana, and Semirhage, the available female Forsaken. This they could have known by an indeed very sensible ambush plan, which also suggest Graendal because of the psycological factor. Since Mesaana and Semirhage have had nothing to do with matters relevant, Graendal is manifestly the killer.

[Jbw]

:shock: God damn, three pages already.

[JakeBarnes]

The key factor that anyone who believes Graendal is the killer needs to remember is that the killer is "intuitively obvious" at the moment of Asmodean's death.

 

Graendal had been hardly mentioned at the time and we had no reason to believe she would "toast" Asmodean.

 

Think back to when you first read TFoH. Can anyone say, honestly, that their reaction was "That damn Graendal." Seriously, folks.

 

The first time I read the sequence I was filled with joy. Because at the moment that Asmodean said "You??" I knew that Moiraine and Lanfear were both still alive.

[Jbw]

Thats why the whole "intuitvly obvious" thing is BS. The first time I read TFoH, I thought it was slayer.

[BenTGaidin]

I know he wasn't introduced yet, but we all know by now that Ishy _was_ introduced, and RJ had already established a habit of him not staying dead.

 

Additionally, his True Power habit would insure that he would have no difficulty being unnoticed as he killed Asmodean, and his possessiveness towards Rand gives him ample motive for offing another Forsaken.

 

 

Ben T-Gaidin

http://www.geocities.com/BenTGaidin/Asmodeansdeath.txt

[Toman Zahere]

Pleased to see that this thread has been started already and that it's already 3 pages. :lol:

It's a laugh just reading through the posts to see the various sides battling each other. Each totally committed to their arguments and not willing to give any ground.

Now to cast my vote.

[Guest Egwene]

Majsju wrote:**You're inventing how Moiraine or Lanfear could get to Caemlyn, and how they got back to finnland. From the info we have, the only entrance/exit is through the doorways or the tower of Ghenjei. The doorway from Rhuidean is destroyed,we don't know if there's any connection between the finns so that the doorway in Tear can even be used.

You're inventing motive, both Lanfear and Moiraine would have other targets if they got the chance to kill one person of their own chosing. Any of those two as the killer would most certainly require that they went there with the intent to kill Asmo. That does not fit with any of them.

 

Motive and possibility are fundamental when solving a murder case, Lanfear and Moiraine requires inventing information to reach that.**

 

I am concluding from the available information that it is possible L&M could have been in Caemlyn . Same as the Graendalonians are concluding that she could have been about. If one is an invention than so is the other. It is very clear from Mat's observations that 'Finnland' is in a state of flux. Doorways all over...seemingly his but always in a different place. It is very obvious the Finns are really desperate to have visitors and get the exchange of need v price. It suggests to me that this would override any problem about their 'entry style'. Are you telling me I shoul totally disregard Mat's visit as a guide to what might happen in Finnland?

 

My point was that Asmodean was not neccessarily what either of them had in mind....however the fact is....both times Mat went through a doorway the interview did not go as he planned it. I am saying that it is a fact that unless you phrase your question/need in a very exact manner, the result might not be what you intended. It depends on how the interpretations of the Finns.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You mean I just got here are am already 4 pages behind in the discussion? Guess I had better get caught up.

[Guest cwestervelt]

The first time I read the sequence I was filled with joy. Because at the moment that Asmodean said "You??" I knew that Moiraine and Lanfear were both still alive.

 

I have always been surprised that wasn't an immediate reaction of everyone to that passage. It seemed so blatantly obvious to me. It must have been my frame of mind the first time reading FoH. After the docks scene, I just sat there thinking, "Moiraine can't be dead, she can't be dead..." Then, I read Asmodean's death and it was an immediate, "Aha, Moiraine is alive." From that point on, I started every book speculating if that would be the one in which RJ was going to let Randland know that Moiraine was still alive. I even found Asmodeans death to have been foreshadowed by the death of Bel'al. About the only difference is that when Bel'al became aware of Moiraine, he didn't say "You? No!", he just turned to her and then said "No!"

 

Moiraine (ok, maybe Lanfear, but I doubt it as she did have a bit of a being dead problem) did it and the "intuitively obvious to the casual reader" is not "BS". I read because I enjoy doing so, and don't consider myself to be anything other than a "casual reader." That Moiraine killed Asmondean was an immediate, instictual reaction (gut reaction if you prefer), and that fits well with something that is supposed to be intuitively obvious.

 

People say that "intuitively obvious" is a lie because there was nothing up to that point that would make give you reason to think of Graendal. She was, and for the most part is, a minor character. It is unlikely for her to be anything more than that as she's so hedonistic she is incapable of doing anything of significance. Minor characters are not inuitively obvious.

 

Slayer has the same "minor character" problem. His scenes were mostly coupled with Perrin, and that simply because Fain was operating in the Two Rivers at the time. Since he was assigned to take out Fain, and hadn't yet succeeded, he most likely would have been concentrating on that rather than taking new contracts.

 

Moiraine had the means: Balefire was another intuitively obvious to me.

Moiraine had the motive: She knew Asmodean was a Foresaken. She couldn't act earlier because she didn't want to do anything that would result in either of the other possible results of the docks occurring.

Did Moiraine have the opportunity: That is the only piece we are being accused of "inventing."

 

What I find interesting is the anti Moiraine/Lanfear people are doing nothing but whining about pro Moiraine/Lanfear people "inventing" things to fit. No matter who you want to put forward as a suspect, you need to do some "inventing" or we would have been told straight out who did it during the scene. For Moiraine and Lanfere, there are 2 speculations required, and that is either of them wishing for something that would cause the Finn's to send them to a point were they could kill Asmodean, and the second that the Finn's could do it.

 

Their support of Graendal is based entirely on speculation so saying you are not inventing anything is either a lie, or an indication the the speaker is delusional. There was nothing to support her being in Caemlyn. There was nothing to support her having a desire to see Asmodean dead. The biggest arguement it every had was that she was acting on orders, which she wasn't, and that was also invention. If you start trimming away assumptions, you have nothing left of the "Graendal Did It" theories.

 

If you wan't people to believe you, put forward some evidence. You won't convince anyone by simply claiming what others are saying is invention or.

 

Let's see some evidence that Graendal did it. In four pages of discussion, you have failed to present any. To me, and probably others, that says you have none that you know will hold up to inspection. If the best you have to offer is that I am "inventing" things to prove Moiraine did it, I will consider Graendal eliminated as a suspect do to lack of evidence. As Sherlock Holmes has said, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbably, must be the truth." --Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (The Sign of Four)

[Guest cwestervelt]

And on an official note, I have cast my vote for Moiraine. One of only 2 people to see the truth. :P

[Guest Winespring Brother]

The thing with this discussion that always strikes me as odd is that nearly everyone (and I have read 100s of pages on who killed Asmo) spends so much time considering motive. You get loads of comments about how Moiraine would have wanted to seperate Rand from a dubiously tamed Forsaken, or how Greandal did not have any real reason to take out Asmo etc. But it all seems to me to be missing the point somewhat. I don't think there is any real need to consider motive, because I don't think the killer really had any other than to keep hidden.

Asmodean was on his way find some wine, but he was hardly walking with a purpose. He was speculating about his situation whilst wandering around a palace he had never been to before, hardly knowing where he was going. He opens up this small door, without really knowing what may be behind it, but thinking it could be a likely place for a pantry. Wham Bam, he's dead.

If someone was setting out to kill Asmo, why oh why would they be standing in a little pantry? Are they that clever that they know where Asmo will be before he knows where he is going? Did they think, hmm, if I stand for long enough in my true form Asmo is sure to walk into this pantry above all the others in the palace? I have to say I doubt it.

I think if there is someone standing in a pantry just after all the turmoil that has happened in that place, when all the palace staff have fled, they are probably there because they want to avoid notice. So Asmo walks in, recognising them, the instinctive thing to do is kill him to cover your tracks.

Thats what makes me think it is Greandal. We see from her conversations with Sammael that she keeps pretty close tabs on what Rand is doing, and it is not inconceivable that she would come to the palace to see Rhavin. Asmo found her, so she kills him.