Mattin Stepaneos

[cloglord]

Finally! Another Valid reason for RJ to have kept Mattin Stepanos around. It very well Could be that Stepanos' purpose is a post TG purpose.

 

"Mattin Stepaneos' motives and contacts are suspect. He's living with Rand's enemies right now. Why would Rand trust him? And why, by extension, would Verin trust him? What you're propopsing requires positive action by Verin and Rand, so there would have to be some motivation for them to take that action. I can see none."

 

Rand learned not to trust Aes Sedai in a box during his kidnapping. Who better to trust than someone kidnapped by Aes Sedai. Stepanos is the one person Rand CAN trust not to have AS strings tied to him. Verin would trust him, because she is very smart, (see I told you,) and probably understands his motives. Verin would likely assume that Stepanos would announce the end to the hunt for the horn, thereby gathering the hunters and notifying Mat to its whereabouts. Further, she knows firsthand that Mattin can blow the horn from here to Timbuktu, and it won't do him any good. So, postive actions in favor of Stepanos include, rescuing a fellow kidnapee of Aes Sedai, doing the right thing and returning a throne to a man assumed dead, and making the horn accesible when needed. From Verin's POV she would be notifying Mat of the horn's whereabouts, gathering the hunters under illian's and thus Rand's banners, and possibly fulfilling prophecy of the horn being brought to Illian. Both Rand and Verin have motives that make a positive move in Stepanos's favor likely. If you want to throw tenuous viewings into it, we know that Rand will confront Egwene about something and make her very angry. Can't you see Rand being pretty bullheaded about kidnappings by the WT? COuldn't you see Egwene being pretty pissed about Rand breaking Stepanos out, weakening her position, and forcing her to choose between upholding the tower, and its bad choices, or as seeming weak? I could very well see a confrontation between Rand nad Egwene over who gets to set up stepanos as king fulfilling this foretelling.

 

I agree that Rand will not let moral objections stop him from doing what is nessecary for TG. I do not see the harm in appointing the rightfully elected king of illian rule for him instead of some Gregorin, who he has not known much longer. In fact the kinship Rand would feel as a fellow kidnappee of Elaida would probably cause Rand to trust Stepanos even more.

 

The examples of Tylin and Alliandre were not introduced as being factors in Rand's desicion making. You asked for examples of rival claimants to thrones being able to work things out without war , exile, or death. Later I edited my post to include the real-world example of King Gyanendra of Nepal, and his voluntary ceeding of authority back to the deomcratically elected bodies of Nepal. These were intended to be examples of peaceful power transfers. One could even go one step further, and argue that given the democratic nature of Illian's politics, that a peaceful transfer of a contested kingship in Illian would be no more astounding than the peaceful transfer of power from Bill Clinton to George W. Bush. That race was hotly contested, and for a while it seemed that either Al Gore or G.W. could have been seen as rival claimants to executive power in the US. However, other government bodies, IE the supreme court made their desicion, and the US did not witness civil war, the exile of Al Gore, or the assasination of either man.

 

Gregorin IS, as you pointed out, capable of ruling Illian as steward, but that means that the council of nine is effectively now the council of eight. What does that do to Illianer political stability?

Are there conflicts of interest, how do the othe reight feel about this? How does the assemblage feel about 2/3rds of the covernment being run by the council of 9? These are all important political questions to be concidered if you claim that Steoanos would be a destablizing force. It would seem to me that a duly elected king, and full, and unconflicted, council of nine, and an assemblage that retains its 3rd of the powerbase is more politically stable than what is currently the case in Illian. And if we are underthe assumption that Rand and Stepanos would have to be in agreement for this scenario to work, why would Stepanos be a rival? He would in fact be beholden to Rand as his rescuer, the provider of tairen grain, the liberator of Illian from Sammael, and the provider of the horn of valere, (through Verin, Rand's liegewoman.)

 

 

"Look, this whole plan would take as much as a year to unfold. First Mattin has to get to Rand, and convince him of his loyalty. Rand's a bit busy at the moment, so that could take at least weeks, maybe months (Mattin can't Travel, remember?). Then word has to go out, as one rumor among a thousand, that the Horn is found and is in Illian (several weeks at best). Then the Hunters have to, on their own, gather to Illian (months of travel for many of them). Then Mat has to winnow through them, figuring out who will be helpful, and who will get his men killed. All to add, what, a couple thousand men to the Band? The effort is not worth the return."

 

Rand could go to Mattin, or Verin could come back and tell Rand about Mattin's situation.

 

It took a winter for Verin to make it to Tar Valon from Toman Head, through snow, and no roads. Yet rumors that Rand had battled Balazamon and declared himself the dragon had receeded them. The trip from Tar Valon to Illian by way of Tear can be managed entirely by river/sea routes. All roads lead to Tar Valon, and rumors fly fast when they are about things as important as the Horn of Valere.

 

 

Word would go out fast. It would not be a rumor, it would be an official announcement from the King of Illian that the horn had been found.

 

Hunters travel fast. By the time that Rand makes it to Carhien from Shienar in TGH there are already hunters there. Any hunters in the north can take the same river routes as Stepanos, a matter of weeks to get to a coast or major river, weeks more for a trip to Illian.

 

It is an unfounded assumption, based on the observation of two groups of boasting braggart hunters for the horn that all hunters are greedy, glory hungry, buttholes. It is presumptive to expect all hunters to act stereotypically based on our limited knowledge of them. It is like the US military's history of excluding black soldiers for combat duty, based on an unfounded assumption of their worth.

 

Lastly, as to the relative worth of just a few extra folks on your side, all we have to do is look at the trolloc attack on camp Rand in KoD. They weren't turing their noses up at a little extra help, and a good thing too.

[Master of the Blades]

I dont see any evidence that following quotes have any significance.

 

Ok ... lets address why having Mattin Stepaneos return as the King would be a destabilizing factor for Rand. He has a claim to the throne independent of Rand al'Thor' date=' and Rand al'Thor has actually been corwned King (a difference between his positions in either Tear or Cairhien). Therefore, unless Mattin goes to Rand first, he becomes a rival. Given that, my previous statement remains both valid and unaddressed by you:

 

Why would it be detabilizing for RAT? It would most certainly be destabilizing for Elaida and the WT for the world to find out the truth that the DR had not killed the King but he was abducted by AS. Kings and Queens can abdicate. Think of how Alliandre came to be Queen. The Illinianers are grateful to the DR for feeding them throught Tear during the siege. When Illian was conquered they put up little resistance as soon as they realized it was. Reread ACOS both Bashere's and Gregorin's statements. They would welcome the idea that the Dr would not rule them directly as much as they would in all the other countries. There is no rivalry as such Rand accepted the Crown on the basis that the king was dead.

Just as he had in Andor and Cairhien, Tear, and Ghealdean. The DR had only interfered when the Forsaken took control of a nation else he has allowed those nations to decide their own fate.

In KOD Rand asks if Dobraine can act as regent his until Alsalam or some other Domani can be found and take control of the nation.

 

Because some people would follow Rand, and some would follow Stepaneos. Name one, even one historical situation in which rival claimants to a single throne have resolved their differences without one of the dying or being exiled, or a civil war. I'll be waiting.

 

They would follow both for different reasons. The king rules the land and the DR is their hope of salvation. In the same way people follow the leadership of their governments and their religious leaders for different motives. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

IMO the return of Mattin Stepanos would have a significantly positive bearing of the perceptions the world has of DR. It might humanize him in the eyes of those who perceive him as a threat and allay any fears he will emulate Hawkwing and swallow up all the nations in Randland.It would also reduce the power the AS have created since the Breaking of the World and lead them to fulfill the role destined for them which Servants to All.

[Mat is the Boss]

Why does Mattin need to play a role in aMoL at all? RJ are going to tie up the loose ends, not starting another plot. I believe Mattin was introduced in KoD for this reason. It answers the question of what happened to him, and aids Egwene in her struggle to unite the Tower. Thats two birds with one stone...

 

And rumors that the Horn has been found, and brought to Illian will be dismissed by Mat, since he knows it is in the Tower.

 

RJ needs to end as many storylines as he can in one book, which is going to be difficult enough without adding some more.

 

I don`t think RJ is going to waste more then 50 pages on Gwayn AND Galad, so why bother with the former king of Illian...? I may be wrong, perhaps RJ is going to write 10 000 pages.... :D

 

Anyway there isn`t enough time to give Mattin any plot, Tar`mon Gaidon is imminent. My quess is that no more then a week after KoD, trollocs will be invading Randland.

 

Anyone who agrees?

[cloglord]

Mat'da'boss,

 

Why does Mattin have to be relegated to obscurity in order to tie up loose ends? What help could Mattin offer Egwene? He can't even help himself.

 

If you truly are interested in tying up loose ends, try this on for size. Rand hears Mattin Stepanos was kidnapped by Elaida. He confronts Egwene, as prophesized, he reinstates Stepanos as king. Stepanos procaims and end to the hunt for the horn. Mat finishes his buisness in Northern Andor, sails downriver towards the band, and hears that the horn is in Illian, a few days journey further south, instead of halfway across the world. He gets to Illian just in time for the scheduled meeting between the seanchan and Rand. He helps bind the nine moons to Rand, but in order to do so he has to lose an eye in some wierdo Seanchan eye ritual. I'd say that wraps up a bunch of loose ends wouldn't you?

 

I'm not saying this is how it will happen, I'm just saying that just because we don't think we can see a way for something to happen doesn't mean it won't. I didn't think it would take 3 books to rescue Faile, but it did, who knows the mind of RJ?

[DemandredFO]

I have a question since we must agree to disagree on the Horn thing. Where does the Tower of Ghenji and Finnland come into your theory?

[cloglord]

DemandredFO,

 

I am afraid that I do not agree that we must agree to disagree. On what basis do you assume that I am that agreeable? In case you have not noticed I can not abide anyone disagreeing with me, and so I must disagree with agreeing to disagree.

 

The mention of Mat, the tower and Illian, was merely pointing out that the fasted way for Mat to reach the tower is by river, the Manetherendrelle. Coincidently, Illian is directly downriver from the tower of Ghenji. Mat going to Illian makes more sense to me than a 2 month trek across uninhabited wilds to Tar Valon. If we assume that Mat is going to get the horn, it seems the fastes way would be for the horn to come to him, and not he to it. Since he is currently upriver from Illian, and legend suggests that the horn will end up there, I am simply putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with the simple solution that wraps up the most loose ends. I believe, in the interest of wrapping up the last book, (not to mention good writing,) the horn and Mat will wind up in Illian.

[DemandredFO]

Unlike you I am open to new ideas and can change my opinion. I WILL concede that Mattin Stephaneos MAY be made king by Rand if he gets to Illian but I RESTATE as Moraine said the Illianers would follow Bal'zemon if he came with the Horn. The Illianers will flock to Stephaneos if he has the Horn and throw Rand overboard. THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN, NOR DO I THINK STEPHANEOS WILL BECOME KING AT ALL. Now we must disagree to disagree on this point so what else do you need me to clarify.

[Mat is the Boss]

I don`t think Mat is going to ride all the way to the Tower of Ghenjei, but to Caemlyn instead(which is along the route anyway), where he get someone to Travel to the Tower of Ghenjei with him, Thom and Noal.

 

When he returns from Finnland he will once again Travel to where he wants to go. Maybe back to Caemlyn, maybe looking for Rand, or maybe to Tar Valon to pick up the Horn.

 

There`s not enough time left for Mat to ride all the way to the Tower of Ghenjei, do what he needs to do in Finnland, and then sail downriver to Illian before the Last Battle.

 

I will admit that Mattin Stepanos may have a major role in the last book, only RJ knows.

 

I just don`t think that it`s very likely, and would be surprised to read about it.

[cloglord]

Mat'da'boss

 

If you look at the map, Mat is nearly to the river, in the company of the man who originally captained the boat that originally took him past the tower. He won't ride, he'll sail.

 

Demandred,

 

Toungue in cheek does not translate well, apparently. However, I do take issue with the fact that you seem to think you know me well enough to claim that I am not open to new ideas, or am unable to change my opinion. My advice to you would be to stop taking yourself so seriously. It is a great series of books, but is not worth getting worked up over. I am merely defending my theory against many well thought out rebuttals, I do not nessecarily claim to know that my theory is 100% true, I am simply having fun debating these points with people who share an interest.

[Mat is the Boss]

Mat is riding north along the Lugard road along with 8000 men, determinded to put as much distance between himself and the Seanchan as quickly as possible. I don`t think he will stop at the river and wait for a boat that is sailing upriver.

 

But I take your point, and admit I can`t say how he will get to the Tower of Ghenjei. He might even run into Verin, which may have been looking for him for a time already. We just have to RAFO

[cloglord]

Yes, and the lugard road crosses the Manatherendrelle. Mat is traveling with Bayle Domon, who owns several triver ships that travel the Manatherendrelle. Mat also has promised to go to the Tower of Ghenji, which is also on the Manatherendrelle. If Mat takes the band back into Murandy he risks the war with King Rhoedran that forced the band to leave in the first place. That leaves the band stuck between The Moldive Gap and the border of Murandy, that is unless they head north into Andor, where it has been made clear that they aren't welcome, or South into Illian. So, if the band can't stay were they are, and they can't head into Andor or Murandy, it leaves them only one place to go. Illian. The band goes south, Mat goes north, and when he's done he heads downriver to Illian to meet back up with the band. That's seems to ty up a few loose ends doesn't it? Especially if the horn ends up in Illian, like RJ has been hinting at the whole series.

[Master of the Blades]

Question? Is this thread not about Mattin Stepaneos?

What does speculation about how Mat will travel to the Tower of Ghenjei have to do with Illian?

[cloglord]

Great question Master'o'blades, let me explain, no no there is too much, let me sum up.

 

The topic of this thread took the course of discussing wether or not Mattin Stepanos would end up playing any part in bringing the horn to Illian, (or if it would even end up in Illian at all.) The point was made that there was not enough time in the books for the theory that I set out, and that RJ would have to tie up loose ends. The inference being that my theory caused more loose ends than it tied up. My point was that if we assume that MAt needs to end up with the horn by TG, and if he needs to make a trip to the tower of ghenji before the TG, it follows that he will of a nessecity, need to get to the tower of ghenji quickly, and then shortly after that reunite with the horn. I was merely pointing out that my theory would in fact expedite that process, by bringing the horn to Illian, a short trip downriver from the tower of Ghenji, and thereby tie up loose ends, instead of causing them.

 

 

I hope that catches you up.

[RobertAlexWillis]

let me explain, no no there is too much, let me sum up.

 

Ah, The Princess Bride ...

 

I think I'll go watch it again. :D

 

Oh, and the Horn isn't going to Illian ... hahahaha.