Mattin Stepaneos

[cloglord]

"...,how hard can it be to locate a ta`veren? Verin could visit maybe 10 cities, or towns a day by Travelling, so it shouldn`t take her long to hear rumors, that will lead her to Mat.

 

And since she will start looking for Mat from the Tower, she is likely to ask Egwene where he is. Egwene can tell her that he was in Ebou Dar last time she heared anything. If Verin start looking for him in Altara, she`ll find Mat in no time."

 

In answer to your question it is so hard to locate ta'veren that only Ishmael and Lanfear knew how to do it outright. Also Mat has been assiduously avoiding leaving rumors of himself since leaving Ebou Dar, which I might add is a major seaport, and any reasonable person looking for him there would have to conclude that he could have gone anywhere from Ebou Dar without leaving so much as a trace of himself. That of course is leaving out the fact that he will presumably be in the tower of ghenji before too long. The chances that anyone could find Mat right now are about nil, in my opinion.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Secondly if the king of Illian did return to hyis homeland it would strengthen RAT's hold on that country as an ally. His return would also act as a morale booster for the troops preparing to face the a possible Seanchan attack. It would also weaken the authority of Aes Sedai trying to influence events, their credibility would be extinguished.

 

I disagree with this statement strongly. Having two claimants for one throne never strengthens one's position. Illian is not like Cairhien, or Tear, where Rand took over but never claimed the throne. He was actually crowned King of Illian. Mattin Stepaneos return only weakens his position politically.

[cloglord]

Why would Rand want to be king of anywhere? He hasn't seemed inclined to want that for himself. In fact he seems to be actively trying to give away every kingdom he conquers, including Illian. If I am not mistaken Gregorin den Lushenos has been named steward for the Lord Dragon in Illian. Dobraine in Carhien, Darlin in Tear, (Now king.) He leaves Andor for Elayne. Rand is not the slightest bit interested in being the king of anywhere. The reason he took the crown of Illian is because it was the first, (and last,) country to offer him the crown, and if you re-read the section at the end of the CoS you will see that the offer is only made after it is assumed that Mattin Stepanos is dead at the hands of "Lord Brend."

 

Rand would lose nothing, nothing, politically if Stepanos were to willingly be restored as king and steward for the lord Dragon, instead of Lushenos. In fact, it would help to quell the rumors that Rand killed him. Think about it this way, right now stepanos is prisoner to the 2nd most powerful political force in Randland. THe most powerful political force in randland is currently sitting in his chair. What hope does Stepanos have of reclaiming his desires and reclaiming his throne?

 

None, is the short anwer. Unless one of two things happen. One, he could find the horn and return to Illian with it. According to Moraine, one of the keenest poitical minds of Randland, the Illianers would follow the Bal' alazmon if he came with the horn. If the former king showed up with it, i'm sure that they would throw over Rand, and proclaim him king instead.

 

Now I know not everyone agrees with this, so I'll put forward the second scenario that I can envision Mattin stepanos regaining his throne. Rand finds out that a major world figure has been kidnapped by the white tower for the gain of the tower. Given Rand's feelings towards kidnappings by the tower, he rescues Stepanos, and decides that since Stepanos was never dead, he is still the rightful king of illian, and would be a fine king & steward for the Dragon. Rand kills two birds with one stone, he angers the Amrylin, clears his name of the murder of Stepanos, and cements the loyalty of Illian with a steward/king entirely beholden to him.

 

I'm sure that some of you like the second scenario better, (not discounting those of you who still think im full of $hit, ) but what if both scenarios were to happen? Verin gives Stepanos the horn and helps him escape downriver. Stepanos proclaims his imprisonment and the return of the horn. Rand hears about it, and offers to let Stepanos rule Illian in his name, (like he has offered in every other country he has conquered.) Stepanos and the horn return to illian triumphant, the hunters of the horn gather, and Mat knows exactly where to go when the time comes. This even fulfills my Law of the Last Book, as it neatly wraps up several things at once.

 

Of course I understand that I will not convince most of you, but I am content to wait and see if I am proven correct. The problem being of course, that by the time we RAFO there will be little need for a forum discussing our theories for the next book. That will for me one of the hardest parts to the end of this series, as I have found myself passing the time between books, enjoying the hunt for, the debate of, and the answer to the next big theory.

[DemandredFO]

Carai'eil; I think the prophecy about the Wolfking is in KOD or COT when Tylee meets Perrin she thinks he will proclaim himself the Wolfking because the redwolfshead banner and probably his eyes oh and his hammer(sorry don't have my books in front of me) if someone could find that quote I'd be much obliged, I have the books on CD so I can't refer immediately to it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What hope does Stepanos have of reclaiming his desires and reclaiming his throne?

 

None, is the short anwer.

 

and

Rand would lose nothing, nothing, politically if Stepanos were to willingly be restored as king and steward for the lord Dragon, instead of Lushenos

 

and then:

 

According to Moraine, one of the keenest poitical minds of Randland, the Illianers would follow the Bal' alazmon if he came with the horn. If the former king showed up with it, i'm sure that they would throw over Rand, and proclaim him king instead.

 

Please explain to me how those statements fit together.

 

Rand hears about it, and offers to let Stepanos rule Illian in his name, (like he has offered in every other country he has conquered.)

 

However, Illian is already unlike the other lands that Rand has conquered. He never claimed the thrones of Andor, Cairhien, or Tear. But he has been crowned King of Illian. That makes the situation unique, and Verin is well aware of that. Besides, why would she entrust the Horn to a man who has no current allies, forces to draw on, or means to defend himself against the Shadow, and sent him halfway across the world alone? Or, if she is going with him, then why bring him at all?

 

It just doesn't make sense.

[cloglord]

Simple answer, the first three posts mean this. 1. From Stepanos' POV he has no hope of reclaiming what he lost, except the 2 possibilities mentioned later in that post. 2. Rand has no motive NOT to make the switch from Gregorin to Mattin, either works for him. 3. There is no doubt that were the horn in Mattin's possession that he would be accepted by the Illianer people.

 

Motive and means.

 

"However, Illian is already unlike the other lands that Rand has conquered. He never claimed the thrones of Andor, Cairhien, or Tear. But he has been crowned King of Illian. That makes the situation unique, and Verin is well aware of that."

 

If you re-read carefully, you will notice that I did mention that Rand was crowned king of Illian on the assumption of Stepanos' death. So my question is this, when stepanos does show up, which he will in some form, what will Rand do? Exile him and wait for him to make a coup attempt? Kill him outright? That ought to go over well with the people he's ruling. So, if you don't think that Stepanos will return as king, what do you think will happen to him? Please, come up with something more plausible, I'm listening.

 

On your last question, as to why Verin would give the horn to Stepanos, I will reiterate my answer. First, it allows her to quickly get the word out to Mat where the horn is. The horn's return to Illian is the type of news that moves FAST. Secondly, the ceremonious trip from Tar Valon to Illian allows the hunters of the horn to gather. I know that not everyone believes that the hunters will gather, but Moraine believed that they would, and that's good enough for me. Simply, Verin would give the horn to Stepanos to make sure that Mat knew where it was when he needed it, and to deliver yet another army into the control of the forces of light. I can't say it any simpler.

[caraieil]

Thanks DemandredFO, I'll have a rummage through those two books again and see what crops up.

Wouldn't Verin just keep the horn? With her if she can get to the rebel Aes Sedai she can get to Rand and that is where the horn will be best placed,

I believe that rand should be able to find Mat somehow using the ta'veran connection. The horn could be better protected than by mattin and would be handy for the last battle so,

 

I'm with Robert though, Mattin with the horn in Illian would be a mattin with ower, and he could turn Ilian against rand, is rand prepared to take that risk as TG draws closer?

For that matter if verrin takes the horn to rand, he can travel to Illian and reinforce his control over that land which would be useful, considering TG's approach. Then the Illianers wouldn't care whether he had killed mattin or not.

 

The news would spread and more and more men would rush to the banners of the light and the dragon. Finally i don't see mattin as that bigger thread of the Novels to be cleared up, at the most I see him playing a small art in Elaida's downfall.

[DemandredFO]

I am not convinced that Verin has gone to get the Horn but let's assume for the moment that I do. I agree with all those saying Mattin will NOT get it. Verin, who wasn't even in the room with Gitara when she Foretold the Dragon's Rebirth, was not with Rand in the Eye of the World, put pieces together, like Thom, and formed the correct picture. I forget if she was there when Moraine made the Balzemon statement but I submit that she is smart enough to know that. Why would she then give the Horn to Mattin and thereby destabilize Rand? Answer, she wouldn't.

[RobertAlexWillis]

From Stepanos' POV he has no hope of reclaiming what he lost, except the 2 possibilities mentioned later in that post.

 

I agree with that

 

Rand has no motive NOT to make the switch from Gregorin to Mattin, either works for him.

 

Except loyalty to the first people to willingly accept him as their leader.

 

There is no doubt that were the horn in Mattin's possession that he would be accepted by the Illianer people.

 

If that's true, its all the more reason for Verin, who is oathbound and loyal to Rand, to not give him the Horn.

 

Motive and means.

 

Actually, it's just motive. Verin has the means.

 

If you re-read carefully, you will notice that I did mention that Rand was crowned king of Illian on the assumption of Stepanos' death.

 

Yes, I made my statement in response to your assumption that Rand would treat Illian the same way he has treated other conquered nations, to point out that Illian is a different case.

 

So my question is this, when stepanos does show up, which he will in some form, what will Rand do? Exile him and wait for him to make a coup attempt? Kill him outright? That ought to go over well with the people he's ruling. So, if you don't think that Stepanos will return as king, what do you think will happen to him?

 

If Rand exiles him, how is he going to make a coup attempt? The other rulers of Illian (Council of Nine) weren't exactly shedding tears of sorrow when they told Rand he was gone. Mattin Stepaneos, if he is returned to the throne of Illian at all, is likely to be returned to it by Egwene al'Vere, as the Amyrlin seat, after Tarmon Gai'don, when Rand is dead. Rand will not allow his claim to the rulership of Illian become in any way clouded before then. Even if Mattin Stepaneos swore fealty to Rand, his claim to the Illianer throne would be independent of Rand's political power, and so would weaken Rand's position.

 

First, it allows her to quickly get the word out to Mat where the horn is.

 

She knows Rand can find Mat. She doesn't have to let the whole world know in order to get it to him.

 

Secondly, the ceremonious trip from Tar Valon to Illian allows the hunters of the horn to gather. I know that not everyone believes that the hunters will gather, but Moraine believed that they would, and that's good enough for me.

 

A "ceremonious" public trip from Tar Valon to Illian would be like an engraved invitation to the Shadow "please come and take the Horn so we can't use it". Verin isn't even close to that stupid. And if she were going to use the Horn to give Rand an army, she would have done it after Mat was Healed in Tar Valon, when Rand had no army at all, rather than waiting until he ruled half the world, and had the entire Aiel nation as an army. The Hunters for the Horn are, for the most part, individual egomaniacs seeking personal glory. Even if they did gather, they would make a horrible army.

[cloglord]

She does not know that Rand can find Mat. If you want me to believe this, you'd better find some pretty concrete citation.

 

Verin DOES have motive AND means.

 

Motive = She needs to make sure that Mat knows where the horns is. She MAY think that it would provide another army of hunters for the horn for the side of the good. She May also think that the horn must be brought to illian in fulfillment of prophecy.

 

Means = She can get to the horn, noone knows that she has access to it in order to stop her.

 

 

A ceremonious trip might seem like an engraved invitation, but so is a great holding in tear, the courtyard in rhuidien, the stuff that Elayne took from Ebou Dar, the wagons of rhuidien relics in Carhien, and until recently Callanor itself. Just because the shadow knows where something is, doesn't mean that they can get it.

 

You seem to be working under the impression that Rand wants to be king of Illian. Until you can give me something more solid than your assumptions, I will go on the assumption that Rand doesn't care whether Gregorin or Mattin rules in his name, and would have a problem keeping a crown he inherited from a deadman who wasn't really dead. A little background reading on the politics of Illian will remind you that besides the king, and the council of nine there is a third equally powerful political body, the assemblege, (made up in part of commoners.) Illian is not a dictatorship, never was. Rand rules in Illian in name only already. Saying that they gave him the crown at most imparts to Rand only 1/3rd power in the Illianer government, subject to the will of the other two bodies. It is possible that a refusal to treat stepanos fairly, could in fact result in a political backlash against Rand regarldess of whether stepanos resurfaced with the horn.

 

Lastly, the hunters might make a horrible army, but they will still likely show up wherever the horn is found. I mean who dedicates their lives to the finding of something, and then just gives up and goes home when its found?

[DemandredFO]

A few problems with cloglord's statements

 

A. Verin is VERY smart she will know that the Horn does not need to go to Illian

B. Rand has most of the Aiel +Andor, Cairhein, Tear and Illian without the horn and he will have the Seanchan. As someone said the Hunters are individualists I believe they will NOT come to the Horn

C. Gregoran(sp) has reason to be loyal to Rand, Stephaneas doesn't. After Rand killed "Lord Brend" Rand was crowned king, they did not try to throw Rand out. Moraine said the Illianers would follow Bal'zemon if he had the Horn, so as I stated CLEARLY in a previous post ALL giving the Horn to Stepheneous would do is destabilize Rand.

 

If I think of more reasons I will post them

[RobertAlexWillis]

You seem to be working under the impression that Rand wants to be king of Illian. Until you can give me something more solid than your assumptions, I will go on the assumption that Rand doesn't care whether Gregorin or Mattin rules in his name, and would have a problem keeping a crown he inherited from a deadman who wasn't really dead.

 

OK. Here you go:

 

How long ago had he commanded the Tairens to sell grain to their ancient enemy, sell it or die for refusing? He had not realized they kept on after he began preparations to invade Illian. Maybe they feared to bring it up, but they had feared to stop, too. Maybe he had earned some right to this crown, too.

 

A Crown of Swords, chapter 41, A Crown of Swords

 

That is Rand's POV in response to Gregorin's answer as to why they gave offered him the throne. Earlier in the same POV, Rand thinks deliberately on the differences between his reception in Illian and the rebellions he still faced in Tear and Cairhien.

 

With Tarmon Gai'don looming, and Rand trying to secure a hold on the whole world, or a treaty with the Seanchan, he is not going to countenance a potential rival, which is how he would have to view Stepaneos if the former King showed up in Illian with the Horn. The only way that would have any chance of working is if Mattin came to Rand with the Horn, and let Rand put him in place as Steward in Illian, like Darlin in Tear. Which would kind of be a slap in the face to Gregorin, who has supported Rand from his first day in Illian.

 

She does not know that Rand can find Mat. If you want me to believe this, you'd better find some pretty concrete citation.

 

Verin isn't stupid. When Rand sees Mat and Perrin through the colors in A Knife of Dreams, chapter 18 News for the Dragon, Cadsuane notices that he seems sure they are all right, and Verin is right there in the room. The only logical conclusion that can be reached from that is that Rand has a way to contact them, otherwise how could he know? I repeat, Verin isn't stupid, and she picks up on things like that. Besides, she's watched Rand's ta'veren powers working at close range. If she brings the Horn to him, and he needs Mat to blow it, she knows he'll find a way to get to Mat, or bring Mat to him. Rand's ta'veren-ness is alot more reliable than Mattin Stepaneos, whose motives have to be in question, considering the company he's keeping.

 

Lastly, the hunters might make a horrible army, but they will still likely show up wherever the horn is found.

 

Even if they did, adding a crappy, unorganized horde of individualists to an organized effective army weakens the overall force. How many Hunters are there, really? Maybe ten thousand? Rand has hundreds of thousands of Aiel. An army of Hunters would be counterproductive.

 

I mean who dedicates their lives to the finding of something, and then just gives up and goes home when its found?

 

How about anyone who is seeking that object for personal glory? Like pretty much all the Hunters?

[caraieil]

There is no reason to give mattin the crown back. Rand with the horn would be totally accepted as the one ruler of Illian which would be helpful in TG regardless of whether he has shown any inclination to become king or not.

 

The forsaken might not consider the holding in tar worth attacking Bel'al would have removed anything of any use already and there could be wards around it. For similar reasons they might not waste time gong after the other ter'angreal and couold instead be searching for the other male Sa'angreal lanfear mentioned.

 

The horn of valere however brings forth a hundred heroes, who cannot be killed or touched by the power, and who display supernatural properties. Removing this toy from the light would be worth a couple of forsaken to the DO at least and would warrant an all out attack on the horn and it's guardians. Something rand does not want to spare time and resources transporting and protecting.

 

Judging from what is said of the hunters and what we've seen rand would be better off without them, sowing discord and spreading conflict through his camp is the last thing he'd want. I still don't see thta verin has a motive, as you say no one else knows where the horn is it's safest left there untill the last possible moment when rand can travell with verin to the WT and retrieve. Secrecy is the best armour, anonimity the greatest camoflauge (spell). Mat can be found by rans so that is no problem either.

[Mat is the Boss]

People seem to forget hat Mat knows that the Horn is in the Tower, its probably the first place he will look for it. I expect him to go to the Tower, and ask Egwene for it(she`s probably Amyrlin by now), and find that Verin is waiting for him with the horn.

 

Or Verin is trying to locate Mat now, and after she finds him, she bring him to the Tower and give him the Horn.

[Master of the Blades]

I disagree with the idea that Rand wants any throne. He has steadfastly refused the thrones of the countries he has brought her his alliance, be it Cairhien, Andor, Tear, or even Arad Doman. He seeks out the existing rulers and brings or looks for a successor to rule those countries whether is is Elayne Trakand, Alsalam or Darlin Sisnera.

 

If and when Rand finds Mattin Stepanos he will relinquish the throne.

[cloglord]

Thank you master'o'blades, finally a little sanity. It seems like everyone else on this board has a case of " I don't want it to happen that way," denial. :?

 

DemandredFO,

 

YES you DID state very CLEARLY your OPINION, but you FAILED to support IT.

 

 

For Mattheboss,

 

Mat might think that the horn is in Tar Valon, but why would he think that he could just walk in and take it? Even if Egwene were raised, would he trust even Egwene not to try and use him in a nefarious aes sedai scheme? Besides this, does Mat even remember that the horn made the trip back from Toman Head with Verin and Co.? Did Verin share that with anyone, or did she just let everyone assume that the horn stayed with Rand and Moraine? Can anyone come up with chapter and page that tells us who knew that the horn was in that leather sack, that Verin had with her?

 

Robert,

 

Rand might have felt SOME right to the crown of Illian, but would that extend to the right to deny the rightful king of illian his throne back? It is one thing to say that Rand felt he deserved the crown, another to say he felt like he deserved it more than the rightfully elected king. Further, your assumption that it would be a slap in the fact to Gregorin assumes that gregorin is in this for personal power, which the fact that he willingly offered the crown to a guy he'd never met, would seem to contradict. Illian is the most democratic of all of the major nations. It would be like the speaker of the house hearing that the president and vice president were dead, assumed power, and then being pissed off when it turns out that the president isn't dead after all. Illian is not a straight monarchy, there is no succession, if the king dies, they elect a new one, if it turns out that the king wasn't dead, why would that destabilize anything?

 

Besides all this, if you remember my earlier posts you'll remember that I mentioned 2 ways that Stepanos could regain the throne. I specifically mentioned that the combination of the two possibilities would be the most likely. Verin and mattin escape from the tower with the horn of valere, and contact Rand. Stepanos holds no animosity towards Rand, because rand sent Tairen grain to help Illian, and Rand feels no animosity towards Mattin as a fellow kidnapee of Aes Sedai. Rand restores the rightful king of illian to his throne, and allows him to announce the end to the great hunt for the horn. AND to those who keep echoing the destabilization mantra, I have this to say. Did it make sense for Rand to appoint the former rebel high lord Darlin to the throne of Tear? Time and time again, Rand finds a native of the land to rule in his name. THAT makes sense. Illian led by a Illianer, Tear led by a Tairen, Carhien led by a carhienen, Andor led by Andorans. Why did Rand leave andor to Elayne? To avoid rebellion. what happened in carhien when he left it in the hands of a mayener and an aiel? Rebellion. What happened when he left Tear with only himself above the high lords? Rebellion. What do you think it will do to Illian if they find out that thier rightful king is alive, and Rand shuts him out?

 

Robert you posit that Cadsuane, noticing that Rand seems sure the Perrin and Mat are alive = Verin knowing Rand has a way to contact Mat. First, even if she assumed that, she would still be wrong, and Rand only seems to know what each of them is doing, not where they are. It's like saying that you could look at a picture of me and know where I am. Barring Mat beings somewhere near an identifyable landmark, Rand does not have any way to locate either of the others via the colors. Secondly, you make the assumption that there is no othe logical conclusion for Verin to reach but the incorrect assumption that Rand has a way of finding Mat. A few othe logical conclusions might spring to mind as well. Maybe Rand is mistaken, that seems like a likely alternative to telepathic homing signals, doesn't it? Or maybe he's a little crazy. Could it be possible, from Verin's POV, that chnneling enough of tainted Saidin to destroy the world, could have screwed Rand up in the head a little? Wouldn't that be a possible logical conclusion? I must say that I was a little disapointed to read this section of your post, as you have been doing a fair job of articulating and defending your points thusfar, but the cadsuane notices = verin notices = verin quesses that Rand is telepathically linked to Mat is pretty weak.

 

Lastly, I do not dispute that the mojority of the hunters we have seen thus far are self righteous prigs. One other that I can think of, Faile, seems very capable and noble minded. Even if we assume that every hunter was just in it for adventure, glory, and wealth, I have to point out that those are the same characteristics that make up the average soldier in the band. The hunters swore, so that they could be part of an epic tale, the newest cycle of the Hunt for the Horn, why would they stop just when things started getting good? As a last aside, even the wrost of the hunters seem to know their way around a fight. Does it matter if they are jerks if they take out 5 or 10 trollocs before they die?

[caraieil]

Okay so mattin can be returned the crown of swords, I agree that there is little to suggest rand wouldn't do that. However I still do not see why that is any reason to give him the horn and to carry it off to Illian.

Mat now has a medallion which protects him from direct weaves of the one power, and he is travelling with three (?) Aes sedai currently. While he is still warey of aes sedai manipulations I do not see him being afraid of approaching the tower under egwene and he would most likely see it as his duty to try and persuade her to leave the tower completely, not forgetting he will most likely have moiriane in tow.

 

If egwene is amrylin then suian will be in the tower anyway, the only other person who knows the location of the horn. It is possible for egwene to contact mat in his dreams and tell him to head to the white tower, an omen he will probably not ignore. he will also most likely head for the tower if and when it is attacked by the seanchen in order to attempt to save egwene etc. RAFO

[cloglord]

I can think of one good reason for the horn to end up in Illian. Everyone who might potentially have access to the horn, seems to think it will end up in Illian.

 

Why would RJ go to the trouble of writing in detail about the hunt for the horn of valere, its associations with Illian, and the numerous minor hunter characters, obstensibly AFTER the horn had been found in the books, if he did not have a purpose for the hunt and the hunters? Why does RJ always associate the hunt with Illian if it has nothing to do with the horn prophecy? I suppose it could be argued that its all been a ruse by RJ to make me, as I am apparently the only one to have fallen for it, belive that the horn and Illian have something to do with one another. Then again, if it looks like the horn is associated with illian, and it sounds like the horn is associated with Illian, maybe, just maybe, RJ intends for all the work he has done outlining the hunt, the hunters, and the backstory in Illian to come to something.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Obviously we disagree, and neither of us will change our opinions. So, I guess we wait and see.

[cloglord]

What's the matter Robert? Tired?

[Reptile111]

although he might have a momentary regret. Stepaneos is an honest man, reasonably competent. Also, Rand's father, Tam, used to be the # 2 person in the Illianer army, probably knows Tam in at least a passing fashion.

 

Would unite the Illianers even further in preparation for the Last Battle. And it would scotch all sorts of rumors that Rand was the cause of Mattin's problems. Also, if Egwene takes over in Tar Valon, this gives Stepaneos another tie to Rand and company.

 

And for all we know, Cadsuane might have paddled HIS bottom when Mattin was much younger. Who knows, maybe she would recruit him for a warder. Would make quite a team.

 

I'm like some others, never understood what the relationship of the Horn to Illian was. Maybe something in the Prophecies has not been revealed to us yet. If it is important that the Horn go at some point to Illian, then Mat will end up there also, if only briefly. I agree that Verin is headed off to Mat, directly or indirectly. Perhaps the Horn is part of the role. Though it is not logically required, Verin has already spent a lot of time with all three of the boys.

[DemandredFO]

Cloglord, I agree with Robert. However, what did I miss in my arguement

[RobertAlexWillis]

What's the matter Robert? Tired?

 

Well ... you asked for it. :D

 

Rand might have felt SOME right to the crown of Illian, but would that extend to the right to deny the rightful king of illian his throne back?

 

Yes. If Rand was inclined to bow to legal claims on the throne of countries he had conquered, he would had to have allowed Colavaere to keep the Sun Throne, which she obtained legally. She even maintained Rand's laws and openly proclaimed her allegiance to him. And the only reason he didn't execute her was because she was a woman. Mattin doesn't have that advantage, and is coming from the Tower under Elaida, who is Rand's enemy. Rand isn't letting him anywhere near the Laurel Crown.

 

Illian is not a straight monarchy, there is no succession, if the king dies, they elect a new one, if it turns out that the king wasn't dead, why would that destabilize anything?

 

Because some people would follow Rand, and some would follow Stepaneos. Name one, even one historical situation in which rival claimants to a single throne have resolved their differences without one of the dying or being exiled, or a civil war. I'll be waiting.

 

Verin and mattin escape from the tower with the horn of valere, and contact Rand. Stepanos holds no animosity towards Rand, because rand sent Tairen grain to help Illian, and Rand feels no animosity towards Mattin as a fellow kidnapee of Aes Sedai. Rand restores the rightful king of illian to his throne, and allows him to announce the end to the great hunt for the horn. AND to those who keep echoing the destabilization mantra, I have this to say. Did it make sense for Rand to appoint the former rebel high lord Darlin to the throne of Tear? Time and time again, Rand finds a native of the land to rule in his name. THAT makes sense. Illian led by a Illianer, Tear led by a Tairen, Carhien led by a carhienen, Andor led by Andorans. Why did Rand leave andor to Elayne? To avoid rebellion. what happened in carhien when he left it in the hands of a mayener and an aiel? Rebellion. What happened when he left Tear with only himself above the high lords?

 

In response to this, allow me to quote myself:

 

The only way that would have any chance of working is if Mattin came to Rand with the Horn, and let Rand put him in place as Steward in Illian, like Darlin in Tear. Which would kind of be a slap in the face to Gregorin, who has supported Rand from his first day in Illian.

 

When Rand chose Darlin Sisnera and Dobraine Taborwin, he didn't use them to replace another loyal native. Rand already has a high ranking native Illianer as his steward: Gregorin Panar den Lushenos, Head of the Council of Nine. I doubt that there is time, between now and Tarmon Gai'don, for Rand to become convinced of Stepaneos' loyalty, and no reason for Rand to need Mattin to return.

 

I must say that I was a little disapointed to read this section of your post, as you have been doing a fair job of articulating and defending your points thusfar, but the cadsuane notices = verin notices = verin quesses that Rand is telepathically linked to Mat is pretty weak.

 

By itself, it is weak, I admit. It is only in the context of everything else, and with the ability we have seen Verin use in the past to make concrete connections from tenuous evidence, that it becomes tenable. Even so, she knows that Rand is much more likely to be able to find Mat than Mattin Stepaneos. He can Travel, for one thing. And, Rand can raise the Horn in Illian as well as Mattin, without introducing a rival for power. There is no reason for her to include Mattin in her plan (assuming that she actually is going for the Horn.)

 

Even if we assume that every hunter was just in it for adventure, glory, and wealth, I have to point out that those are the same characteristics that make up the average soldier in the band.

 

Um, no. The average soldier in the Band came from the armies of Tear or Cairhien or Andor (or Murandy or Altara now), and joined up to be part of someone else's army, because they believed in Mat and his luck.

 

The hunters swore, so that they could be part of an epic tale, the newest cycle of the Hunt for the Horn, why would they stop just when things started getting good?

 

The Hunters didn't just want to be part of a new cycle, they wanted to be the focus of the new cycle. They wanted to be the one to find, and maybe to blow, the Horn, not just be a scrub soldier in one army among many.

 

As a last aside, even the wrost of the hunters seem to know their way around a fight. Does it matter if they are jerks if they take out 5 or 10 trollocs before they die?

 

Yes. A lack of discipline is more damaging to an army than skill in fighting benefits it. Ten organized disciplined fighters will trounce 50 individualists. The armed forces don't instill discipline before weapons training by accident. If they kill 2 or 3 Trollocs (which they would be lucky to) and draw a troop of 10 or 12 humans out of position so they get slaughtered and alter a battle plan, then yes, it matters.

[cloglord]

Okay first things first.

 

DemandredFO, in answer to your question. You assert that Verin knows that he horn does not need to go to Illian. Please tell me, based on observations from the book, how you have come to this conclusion. You believe that the hunters will not come to the horn. I do not take issue with your beliefs, please explain why you believe this. Lastly, you claimed in your last post, and at least one post previous to this that "ALL giving the Horn to Stepheneous would do is destabilize Rand." Robert and I have been having this very debate, and as Robert has yet to persuade me with his various approaches, it seems that you will have to better than just issuing statements to compete. If you are sure of this, please, tell us why, that is unless Robert beats you to it.

 

Okay, now Robert.

 

I'm glad to see you haven't quit on me, I'm having a pretty good time with this.

 

On the point of Rand bowing to other legal claimants to thrones. I would subit that Rand was not angry with Colvalere for overstepping herself. He was angry because, A. She aligned herself with the AS who had just kidnapped him, B. She took a crown that he intended to go to his sweetie pie Elayne, and C. (The most important reason,) she had committed murder several times over. It was the murder, that was met with harsh judgement by Rand, not her crowning. For an example of Rand leaving a crwon vacant in favor of a rightful heir, look to the case of Andor. For an example of a noble thumbing his nose at rand's orders and going unpunished, we can cite a few, including Weiramon, Caroline Damodred, and King Darlin.

 

More importantly, it is not the legal claim that I think will prove important to Rand, it will be the moral claim. Rand still tries to do what is right when possible. Inheriting something is a whole different proposition than stealing it. Since I can find no convincing argument that Stepanos as king would effect the outcome of TG, I conclude that Rand cares more about doing the right thing than he does about who rules in his name.

 

I can name a few powershifts without war or deaths. Queen Alliandre of Gheldean, assumed the throne after political pressures caused her predecessor to voluntarily vacate the throne. She then voluntarily gave up her power to a representative of the Dragon Reborn. She is still the Queen and rules in Gheldean, yet she answers to Rand through Perrin. A similar occasion occured with Tylin. She was queen of a conquered nation, yet she gave up soverignty to the Seanchan, in the best interests of herself, her family, and her country. She ruled the nation, but her nation was part of a bigger empire. I see Illian in much the same way. Illian is a larger and more powerful country than either of the above references, but the King of Illian is still a weak ruler, as he is only one third of the triumvarate that makes up the government. Gregorin is not king of Illian, yet Rand cares so little for the ruling of Illian, that he left Gregorin to do it. He has left Illian kingless. This situation might work for a while, so long as nothing major comes up, but when Illian needs to marshall and command its armies for TG, do you think Rand will be there to do it? Illian needs it assembly, its council of nine, AND a king to run like Illian is used to. Illian NEEDS a king, just like Andor needed a queen, just like Tear needed a king, just like Carhien will need a queen. Rand can not rule countries and do what needs done.

 

And while it is not a perfect realworld example,

 

King Gyanendra of Nepal, gave himself absolute power, in Feb 2005,in order to combat a pre-existing Maoist insurgency in that country. After a period of inefectual rule, where no real progress was made to end the war, King Gyanendra recently ceded power, under popular pressure, back to the elected democratic bodies of his counrty. Granted there were large scale protests. There were riots where 14 people lost their lives, but I would contend that it fell short of war, and king Gyanendra was not exiled or killed. In fact, the riots against King Gyanendra seemed to bring the people of Nepal closer as neither the citzenry loyal to the government, nor the maoists were happy with the king. In fact it seems possible that the two sides' cooperation in forcing King Gyanendra's retreat, might help them to find a solution to their civil war

 

I am glad to see that we CAN agree on something. The most likely scenario is that Rand and Stepanos work together to restore him to the throne. I disagree that it would be a slap inthe face to Gregorin. Gregorin is not king, he's the leader of the Council of Nine. He has duties there. If Rand doesn't want to be king of Illian, what's it to him? Apparently the council of Nine gets to chose who is king, even if they had a problem with the way Stepanos ruled under Sammael, would they be able to turn away the guy who brings the horn to Illian? According to Moraine, no.

 

On the subject of Verin being ubersmart, you need to be very careful Robert. If you recall, I started commenting on this thread, using the assumed prophecies and Verin's smarts to argue that the Horn must go to Illian. If Verin is smart enough to infer the existence of a non-insanity induced telepathic link, then the question must be asked, why she hasn't correctly interpreted horn prophecy and then supported or corrected the current Randland worldview that it is connected to Illian. I have recently left the prophecy angle out of this debate, until I can find some concrete connection between the horn and illian, but if we are going to venture off into the realms of tenous to tenable, be ready for what you get. :)

 

The average soldier in the band did come from those counrties' armed forces as you point out, but they did so because they wanted to be on the winning side. There is little glory, wealth, or adventure in dying. If you were a hunter for the horn, would you want to be in the army where dead heroes are fighting for you, or not? If you can't be the guy who found the horn, then at least you could say that you fought alongside Artur Hawkwing? Boasting is boasting, and the second best boast is still better than none at all.

 

I agree that a lack of discipline is bad for an army, but so is being understrength or outnumbered. There is no rule that says that Mat has to take all of the hunters. If there is one battle leader charismatic enough to get hunters to toe the line, it is Mat. There is one battle leader, who with horn in hand, is charasmatic enough to get a bunch of glory grabbing hornsoundre wannabe's to sign up and follow. I'm not saying that it WILL happen this way, but I do not see the attitude of the few hunters we have seen in the series being an absolute barrier to their formation as a viable army.

 

There, back to you and then some. :)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ok ... lets address why having Mattin Stepaneos return as the King would be a destabilizing factor for Rand. He has a claim to the throne independent of Rand al'Thor, and Rand al'Thor has actually been corwned King (a difference between his positions in either Tear or Cairhien). Therefore, unless Mattin goes to Rand first, he becomes a rival. Given that, my previous statement remains both valid and unaddressed by you:

 

Because some people would follow Rand, and some would follow Stepaneos. Name one, even one historical situation in which rival claimants to a single throne have resolved their differences without one of the dying or being exiled, or a civil war. I'll be waiting.

 

Now, you have said that Mattin might go to Rand, and thus be reinstated. And I have said that is the only possible way this could work, but that it is still highly unlikely. This is why. It does not benefit Rand al'Thor in any way. His situation is not any better or stronger with Mattin Stepaneos than it is with Gregorin den Lushenos, and Mattin Stepaneos' motives and contacts are suspect. He's living with Rand's enemies right now. Why would Rand trust him? And why, by extension, would Verin trust him? What you're propopsing requires positive action by Verin and Rand, so there would have to be some motivation for them to take that action. I can see none.

 

Rand is not going to let moral considerations stop him at this point from doing what he feels he must to win Tarmon Gai'don, which is imminent. He's willing to leave women leashed to get what he feels he needs ... thats a big change in his tune, considering the problems he's had with allowing harm to come to any women in the past. He has no reason to restore Mattin (doesn't make his position any stronger) and several reasons not to (Mattin's loyalties are at best questionable, there's not alot of time to get to know him, and Mattin is as much a potential rival as an ally).

 

She then voluntarily gave up her power to a representative of the Dragon Reborn. She is still the Queen and rules in Gheldean, yet she answers to Rand through Perrin.

 

Seeing as how Rand doesn't even know about that yet, you can hardly use it as a basis for his actions ...

 

A similar occasion occured with Tylin. She was queen of a conquered nation, yet she gave up soverignty to the Seanchan, in the best interests of herself, her family, and her country. She ruled the nation, but her nation was part of a bigger empire.

 

Again, Rand is totally uninvolved in that case.

 

Illian NEEDS a king, just like Andor needed a queen, kust like Tear needed a king, just like Carhien will need a queen. Rand can not rule countries and do what needs done.

 

Gregorin is entirely capable of ruling Illian as Steward. Illian will need a King, future tense, after Tarmon Gai'don, just like Cairhien. The only reason Tear needed a King now was to stop a rebellion of the other High Lords and Ladies, a problem which has been settled in Illian. Sorry, Rand can do what he needs and leave Gregorin in charge with no meaningful problems. Rand doesn't even know Mattin Stepaneos is out there, so its not like he's waiting around for him. If he really thought Illian needed a King other than himself, he would already have named someone.

 

If Verin is smart enough to infer the existence of a non-insanity induced telepathic link, then the question must be asked, why she hasn't correctly interpreted horn prophecy and then supported or corrected the current Randland worldview that it is connected to Illian.

 

Um, because she doesn't give away information that would be beneficial to Rand's enemies?

 

I have recently left the prophecy angle out of this debate, until I can find some concrete connection between the horn and illian, but if we are going to venture off into the realms of tenous to tenable, be ready for what you get.

 

Weak and tenuous objections? I can deal with that. :D

 

I agree that a lack of discipline is bad for an army, but so is being understrength or outnumbered.

 

That objection would be valid, if the total number of Hunters would add meaningfully to Rand's armies. But they wouldn't. The Band has more people than the total number of Hunters, and Rand has close to a million (at least) effective and organized boots he can put on the ground, not to mention all the channelers he can count on. Chucking at best 10,000 Hunters into the mix would provide no signifigant benefit at this point. When Moiraine proposed that plan in The Great Hunt, Rand had no army at all, just a troop of Shienarans. So, ten thousand troops, even egomaniacs, would have been better than nothing. But now, when he has nations under his command, they would be an unnecessary annoyance, nothing more.

 

There is no rule that says that Mat has to take all of the hunters. If there is one battle leader charismatic enough to get hunters to toe the line, it is Mat. There is one battle leader, who with horn in hand, is charasmatic enough to get a bunch of glory grabbing hornsoundre wannabe's to sign up and follow.

 

While it is possible that would work, the benefit gained would not be worth the time and effort it would take.

 

Look, this whole plan would take as much as a year to unfold. First Mattin has to get to Rand, and convince him of his loyalty. Rand's a bit busy at the moment, so that could take at least weeks, maybe months (Mattin can't Travel, remember?). Then word has to go out, as one rumor among a thousand, that the Horn is found and is in Illian (several weeks at best). Then the Hunters have to, on their own, gather to Illian (months of travel for many of them). Then Mat has to winnow through them, figuring out who will be helpful, and who will get his men killed. All to add, what, a couple thousand men to the Band? The effort is not worth the return.

 

I think Jordan has kept Mattin around to return to the throne of Illian after Tarmon Gai'don. Restoring him to his throne will be one way that the new Amyrlin, Egwene al'Vere, gains the trust of rulers in starting to rebuild the post Tarmon Gai'don world.