Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)

[Eht Slat Meit]

Knowing how to cut saidin weaves wasn't really necessary to defeat Rahvin. As I said like a dozen pages back, it would've been pretty simple for the Supergirls to disguise themselves, get near him and balefire him into oblivion. He wasn't prepared for an attack by female channellers. Plus, when both sides are ready to use balefire, against which weave cutting doesn't work, it's not decisive by any means.

 

A violent sneak attack like that might succeed, but it also ends up with a dead Elayne and Nynaeve. Because even if they suceed, what they just did amounts to assassinating the crowned king of two nations, and they'd be killed in retaliation on the spot by his loyal retainers. Unless they have the .... cuendillar... necessary to murder every last guard standing between them and escape. Why? Because they don't have Traveling. This also assumes that they actually got the necessary weaves from Moghedien, which might never happen in this scenario. Normal disguises might work on Elayne and Nynaeve, but not on a normal Aes Sedai.

 

And given the epic failure of the Forsaken at the Cleansing, it's completely implausible to me that Rahvin would've had any chance against a full circle of 13 including Elayne and Nynaeve. Going into hiding and attacking from the shadows is not something I see Rahvin doing either, he was no Moggy.

 

Defensive ground advantage. Sneaking a circle of 13 into hostile enemy territory is no small thing, and even a far less nasty Rand was effective about keeping them at bay until the Box incident. There's no way they'll sneak up on him like that, because the ageless thing is a dead giveaway and only a complete moron would retain guards who are dumb enough to let women with concealed faces in "disguise" walk in unannounced. They'd possibly make it through the gates, but Rahvin once finds out they're coming.... And he will, because there's nothing that would delight the Forsaken more than taking down not only one of their own, but a circle of 13, and the entire reputation of the Aes Sedai burned to the ground along with the Caemlyn palace.

[Suttree]

A violent sneak attack like that might succeed, but it also ends up with a dead Elayne and Nynaeve. Because even if they suceed, what they just did amounts to assassinating the crowned king of two nations, and they'd be killed in retaliation on the spot by his loyal retainers.

 

You seem to be throwing out a good deal of absolutes. I find it very unlikely that Andorans no matter how unsavory in Gaberils service, would murder the Daughter Heir on the spot. They are liberating the country, same as Rand did. The results after would be much the same until their could be a claim put forth.

[MasterAblar]

You seem to be throwing out a good deal of absolutes. I find it very unlikely that Andorans no matter how unsavory in Gaberils service, would murder the Daughter Heir on the spot. They are liberating the country, same as Rand did. The results after would be much the same until their could be a claim put forth.

 

The ones that attacked Rand were led by a Fade. Andoran or not, if they're working for the Shadow they won't give a fig that Elayne is the Daughter Heir.

[Eht Slat Meit]

A violent sneak attack like that might succeed, but it also ends up with a dead Elayne and Nynaeve. Because even if they suceed, what they just did amounts to assassinating the crowned king of two nations, and they'd be killed in retaliation on the spot by his loyal retainers.

 

You seem to be throwing out a good deal of absolutes. I find it very unlikely that Andorans no matter how unsavory in Gaberils service, would murder the Daughter Heir on the spot. They are liberating the country, same as Rand did. The results after would be much the same until their could be a claim put forth.

 

I see it as an -absolute- because for certain actions, there are natural opposing reactions. Violence begets violence.

 

Firstly, we're not talking about "unsavory". We're talking about Rahvin's -loyal- retainers, quite probably darkfriends.

 

Secondly, that's only a small part of the problem. You already alluded to the bigger problem, the disguise. Two Aes Sedai assassins just killed the sitting king, then suddenly one drops her illusion weave and turns into Elayne Trakand? Would you believe it, and just let her walk, or declare herself queen, knowing perfectly well that your head is on the chopping block?

 

Guardsman, no matter how many ridiculous fantasy tropes there are out there, aren't so stupid in RJ's world. I don't think they'd even get to the point of having to reason it out though; Nynaeve unleashes balefire, they attack in an act of self-preservation.

 

What one person calls "liberating" the country, another calls a vile act of assassination by Aes Sedai witches. There's a reason Rahvin substituted his own people for Morgase's. Guess who controls the PR here? Not us loyal readers, the Andorans, or the upstanding members of the Forsaken-manipulated White/Little Towers. After all, one of those Towers needs to explain why a pair of Aes Sedai (whether Nyn/Elayne are or aren't isn't really relevant) just broke centuries of trust by publicly killing a nation's leader.

[David Selig]

What chance do non-channellers (except a gholam) have against Elayne and Nynaeve alert and ready for battle? It would be target practice for them against Trollocs, Darkfriends or even Fades. And what Darkfriend would be crazy enough to attack a channeller who just killed a Forsaken? They are too selfish for that.

 

Rahvin had wards up by the end of tFoh, and the supergirls could not have attacked him before then. How could they get near him?

he had wards to detect men's channelling, because he expected Rand's attack. We have no idea whether he had wards for saidar - he didn't have them at the start of the book when Lanfear open up a gateway in the heart of the palace and was not detected. And even if he did had wards - it doesn't really matter since the Supergirls didn't know Travelling at this point, and the only Channelling they need to do close to Rahvin was to balefire him.

 

Again I am not saying the plan was sure to succeed, far from it, but IMO the chance is pretty good.

[Suttree]

After all, one of those Towers needs to explain why a pair of Aes Sedai (whether Nyn/Elayne are or aren't isn't really relevant) just broke centuries of trust by publicly killing a nation's leader.

 

Much the same way Rand did, in showing that he was Forsaken. The PR would be much worse for an insane male channeler than AS. They can use as proof the multiple DFs captured in the scenario you use in which normal humans come against the channelers who just took out a forsaken and are easily defeated. Not to mention stating it plain out in conjunction with their oath. You are acting as if Gaebril was some beloved monarch of many years instead of a random who had very recently risen to power.

 

We know how the nobles and commoners felt about the Aiel and DR in Andor after Rand beat him, they are much more likely to react positively and except Elayne in that scenario. Hell if she saves the country we might be able to skip the whole succession plotline!

[Eht Slat Meit]

After all, one of those Towers needs to explain why a pair of Aes Sedai (whether Nyn/Elayne are or aren't isn't really relevant) just broke centuries of trust by publicly killing a nation's leader.

 

Much the same way Rand did, in showing that he was Forsaken. The PR would be much worse for an insane male channeler than AS. They can use as proof the multiple DFs captured in the scenario you use in which normal humans come against the channelers who just took out a forsaken and are easily defeated. Not to mention stating it plain out in conjunction with their oath. We know how the nobles and commoners felt about the Aiel and DR in Andor after Rand beat him, they are much more likely to react positively and except Elayne in that scenario. Hell if she saves the country we might be able to skip the whole succession plotline!

 

Rand got slack because he is the Dragon Reborn. Unlike the Aes Sedai, who have sworn oaths that are supposed to protect the world from them, (no lying, no killing anyone but darkfriends and shadowspawn, etc), the Dragon is here to break the world, to bring death and misery, severe all ties, and so forth. He gets away with it because it's part of his job description, and what he's been doing in every book since TEoTW. Gaebril wasn't completely outed as a Forsaken to the public, which is why there are a thousand different rumors, including those suggesting that Rand murdered Morgase.

 

More importantly, were such a sneak attack performed successfully (unlike Rand's battle royale), it would literally be the word of two dead Aes Sedai assassins against the men who actually witnessed the attack.

 

Rahvin's "loyal retainers", probably darkfriends. These people aren't your average Andoran, and knowing perfectly well they're responsible for that Forsaken's presence on the throne, they're going to die if they don't immediately put a sword in these two women that killed him. Nynaeve and Elayne would be dead, with Dyelin probably taking the throne after a bloody revolt against Rahvin's surviving lackies.

 

The crucial point though, is Rahvin's retainers. These people are not going to react positively to an Aes Sedai killer in a magical disguise that claims to be Elayne Trakand!

[David Selig]

Remember that Moiraine killed Be'lal with plenty of Tairen soldiers watching, and this didn't cause any PR problems for the Aes Sedai at all.

 

And again - how the hell would Rahvin's guardsmen kill two powerful channellers who would be prepared and ready?

[Eht Slat Meit]

What chance do non-channellers (except a gholam) have against Elayne and Nynaeve alert and ready for battle? It would be target practice for them against Trollocs, Darkfriends or even Fades. And what Darkfriend would be crazy enough to attack a channeller who just killed a Forsaken? They are too selfish for that.

 

Neither Nynaeve nor Elayne are skilled enough in balefire to take out a room full of bodyguards, retainers or whatever. As for which DF would do it? Any one that realizes that if this really IS Elayne Trakand and not some Aes Sedai imposter, they're going to be executed for assisting a Forsaken. Assuming they're not under Compulsion, in which case they'll do it no matter what second thoughts they have. Rahvin's noted for Compulsion, as I recall.

 

 

Again I am not saying the plan was sure to succeed, far from it, but IMO the chance is pretty good.

 

Personally, I think that of the two Rahvin Hypotheticals, Nynaeve/Elayne ambush versus Circle of 13 assault, the former has a far greater chance of "succeeding". I'm qualifying that with quotes because I believe that they'd kill Rahvin and die in the process. The Circle of 13 is too likely to get busted sneaking in.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Remember that Moiraine killed Be'lal with plenty of Tairen soldiers watching, and this didn't cause any PR problems for the Aes Sedai at all.

 

And again - how the hell would Rahvin's guardsmen kill two powerful channellers who would be prepared and ready?

 

They weren't "watching", they were too busy being slaughtered by the Aiel to watch anything except their own throats being cut:

 

Shouts echoed among the columns, screams, the clash of steel, but Rand barely heard. He and Be'lal were no longer alone in the Heart of the Stone. Men in breastplates and rimmed helmets fought with swords against shadowy, veiled shapes that darted among the columns with short spears stabbing. Some of the soldiers formed a rank; arrows flashing out of the dimness took them in the throat, the face, and they died in their line. Rand hardly noticed the fighting, even when men fell dead within paces of him. His own fight was too desperate; it took all of his concentration. Wet warmth trickled down his side. The old wound was breaking open.

 

Couple the Aiel with the fact that you've got the Dragon Reborn standing right there, and suddenly Moiraine stops being even remotely comparable to Nynaeve and Elayne running off to whack Rahvin by themselves in disguise.

 

As for your other question, tell me: do Nynaeve and Elayne have the skill and willingness to slaughter an entire palace full of people, not all of whom are necessarily evil, but simply staving off an assault per their job? There is no chance in a situation to stop and ask if, perchance, that lazer-wielding Aes Sedai killing all the gaurds is really the Daughter-Heir, who just killed a Forsaken. I don't think they could pull it off.

[MasterAblar]

He had wards to detect men's channelling, because he expected Rand's attack. We have no idea whether he had wards for saidar - he didn't have them at the start of the book when Lanfear open up a gateway in the heart of the palace and was not detected. And even if he did had wards - it doesn't really matter since the Supergirls didn't know Travelling at this point, and the only Channelling they need to do close to Rahvin was to balefire him.

 

Again I am not saying the plan was sure to succeed, far from it, but IMO the chance is pretty good.

 

At the beginning of the book, Rand was in the Waste, and was no danger at all to Rahvin. Once he came in to Cairhien, he became much more of a threat to him. That said wasn't the Forsakens' plan for Rand to attack Sammael, and the Lanfear, Graendal, and Rahvin would ambush? In that case Rahvin needn't have expected Rand to attack him. And if he's going to set up wards against Rand and male channellers, he might as well do the same against female channellers. That doesn't mean he did, but it would smart to do so. Also, why would the supergirls not know travelling at this point? They wouldn't have had the time to attack Rahvin (it isn't even clear at what point they learned Rahvin was in Andor), before Egwene returned with the knowledge of travelling. Even if they did not channel once before attacking Rahvin, there were shadowspawn lying in wait. If the wards don't catch them the shadowspawn will. Rahvin is unlikely to allow several unknown women in his presence without taking his precautions. Egwene and the supergirls, apart from Aviendha, are not Aiel who will be able to sneak around the palace without being noticed. Even if they were disguised as servants, Rahvin doesn't come across as being very trusting to me. The chances of getting an opportunity to take him out would be very small, and if they remember what happened in Tear and in Tarabon, they'll be very weary of being in the same city as a Forsaken. Combined with their complete lack of information on Rahvin (think of what would have happened to Rand if he had not know what to expect from Sammael, or simply what happened to Aviendha. Rand only survived because he was able to react fast enough thanks to sensing saidin), the unlikelyness of being able to defend against him if they fail to take him out in one blow, and quite simply his superiority in more or less every area, how likely is it they'll go attack him alone instead of asking help from Rand or the WT?

[Suttree]

Neither Nynaeve nor Elayne are skilled enough in balefire to take out a room full of bodyguards, retainers or whatever. As for which DF would do it? Any one that realizes that if this really IS Elayne Trakand and not some Aes Sedai imposter, they're going to be executed for assisting a Forsaken. Assuming they're not under Compulsion, in which case they'll do it no matter what second thoughts they have. Rahvin's noted for Compulsion, as I recall.

 

They don't need balefire. Split flows and wrap them up with air, etc. There many ways for them to do it. If they manage to beat Gaebril they would not be killed by non channelers. Your claims on that mark are a huge stretch. After that AS can't lie so there is no PR problem if they say it straight out. Elayne would be hailed as savior.

 

Remember that Moiraine killed Be'lal with plenty of Tairen soldiers watching, and this didn't cause any PR problems for the Aes Sedai at all.

 

And again - how the hell would Rahvin's guardsmen kill two powerful channellers who would be prepared and ready?

 

They weren't "watching", they were too busy being slaughtered by the Aiel to watch anything except their own throats being cut:

 

Which has zero bearing on the effect of later negative PR. If it didn't happen in a country like Tear it certainly wouldn't in Andor.

[lord of madness]

my most hatted charcter is bazlmon(mordin before he was killed by rand) though suprisliy I like mordin as one of the best

[Eht Slat Meit]

They don't need balefire. Split flows and wrap them up with air, etc. There many ways for them to do it. If they manage to beat Gaebril they would not be killed by non channelers. Your claims on that mark are a huge stretch. After that AS can't lie so there is no PR problem if they say it straight out. Elayne would be hailed as savior.

 

Firstly, there's only one girl weaving, remember? They're linked, which iirc, allows only one person to weave. Nynaeve/Elayne may be good, but she's not -that- good, nor has she demonstrated that level of skill.

 

As for the PR problem, sure they could say it straight out. Who says they'll do that, though? The WT is run by the Black Ajah/Mesaana, the LT is nearly as corrupted. Tell me, what would people think if the WT (per Elaida's delusions) insisted that no such Forsaken existed, while the other insisted that it was a Forsaken. Both cannot lie, both believe they are telling the truth, so what does that do to public perception? Yeah, wrecks it even further, because either these wimmenz be crazy or lying. Field day for the Forsaken.

 

 

Which has zero bearing on the effect of later negative PR. If it didn't happen in a country like Tear it certainly wouldn't in Andor.

 

Of course it has no bearing on that; I was referring to the idea that the Teirens did nothing to Moiraine because she would have killed them. None of them survived to threaten her.

 

Now far as Tear vs Caemlyn, You're suggesting that PR at Tear has nothing to do with the fact that the events at Tear that were pure fulfillment of prophecy, meant to be recognized as such world over? Exactly which prophecy are Nynaeve and Elayne fulfilling again? And really, how many people have any idea that Moiraine is the one that killed Be'lal, not Rand? The Aiel and Rand? The Teirens died.

[MasterAblar]

my most hatted charcter is bazlmon(mordin before he was killed by rand) though suprisliy I like mordin as one of the best

 

Hahaha, at first when I read your post I was like "what the hell is this guy talking about". Then I remembered the title of the thread and I was like "oh yeah that's what we're supposed to be talking about". This thread has really been derailed (myself being one of the primary culprits).

[Eht Slat Meit]

Hahaha, at first when I read your post I was like "what the hell is this guy talking about". Then I remembered the title of the thread and I was like "oh yeah that's what we're supposed to be talking about". This thread has really been derailed (myself being one of the primary culprits).

 

Oh.

 

Uh, whoops.

 

*quietly tucks away discussion for different thread*

[Suttree]

And really, how many people have any idea that Moiraine is the one that killed Be'lal, not Rand? The Aiel and Rand? The Teirens died.

 

Really? Eveyy Tairen involved that day died and didn't live to tell the story? Think you need to go back and read the passage again. You make a good deal of assumptions in your posts that deal in absolutes, ie "the girl would be dead", "the tairens died" etc...

 

In terms of PR for the AS the only one that really needs to say it is the Daughter Heir. Have her take the oaths and make a proclamation to the world and btw no the LT is not nearly as corrupted.

 

Edit: It's almost comedy at this point, people keep creating more and more far fetched reasons for them being unable to pull it off, meanwhile the longer this debate goes on the more obvious it becomes that its not really a stretch that they would succeed in the slightest.

[David Selig]

They weren't "watching", they were too busy being slaughtered by the Aiel to watch anything except their own throats being cut:

 

Couple the Aiel with the fact that you've got the Dragon Reborn standing right there, and suddenly Moiraine stops being even remotely comparable to Nynaeve and Elayne running off to whack Rahvin by themselves in disguise.

Nope, the fighting stopped right when Be'lal died, clearly because the fighting men saw it and it shocked them.

There was silence in the chamber as that bar of light vanished, silence except for the moans of the wounded. The fighting had stopped dead, veiled men and men in breastplates alike standing as if stunned.

A lot of Tairens were still alive and fighting in the Heart of the Stone when Rand killed Ishy and stopped the fighting, so most likely there were a lot of them survining who witnessed Moiraine kill Be'lal.

 

As for your other question, tell me: do Nynaeve and Elayne have the skill and willingness to slaughter an entire palace full of people, not all of whom are necessarily evil, but simply staving off an assault per their job? There is no chance in a situation to stop and ask if, perchance, that lazer-wielding Aes Sedai killing all the gaurds is really the Daughter-Heir, who just killed a Forsaken. I don't think they could pull it off.

Again - they don't have to kill an entire palace, far from it. Very few people are stupid enough to engage channellers in open battle. Running away is the most logical course of action for the Darkfriends among the Guardsmen, and the others had no love for Gaebril would probably be relieved he's gone.

 

Firstly, there's only one girl weaving, remember? They're linked, which iirc, allows only one person to weave. Nynaeve/Elayne may be good, but she's not -that- good, nor has she demonstrated that level of skill.

 

As for the PR problem, sure they could say it straight out. Who says they'll do that, though? The WT is run by the Black Ajah/Mesaana, the LT is nearly as corrupted. Tell me, what would people think if the WT (per Elaida's delusions) insisted that no such Forsaken existed, while the other insisted that it was a Forsaken. Both cannot lie, both believe they are telling the truth, so what does that do to public perception? Yeah, wrecks it even further, because either these wimmenz be crazy or lying. Field day for the Forsaken.

The link can be released immediately after Rahvin is dead. besides, for the "sneak in disguised and balefire" plan, linking doesn't make sense anyway, a weaker balefire kills just as effectively, and it's much harder to defend against 2 streams of it than one.

 

Anyway, even if people don't believe Gaebril was a Forsaken, so what? He was still an usurper of the Lion Throne, believed to have killed Morgase and he was wildly unpopular due to the increased taxes and the war he started, and he has also alienated the most powerful nobles. Nynaeve and Elayne were not full Aes Sedai at this point, so they haven't sworn oaths not to use the power as a weapon. They will be seen as heroes in Andor.

[Eht Slat Meit]

If we're allowed to keep on with the off-topic thread, gravy, I've still got more to say.

 

Really? Eveyy Tairen involved that day died and didn't live to tell the story? Think you need to go back and read the passage again. You make a good deal of assumptions in your posts that deal in absolutes, ie "the girl would be dead", "the tairens died" etc...

 

What you don't seem to get is that this whole sub-thread, the entire Rahvin Hypothetical is nothing but assumption and speculation. We have nothing more than our guesses of what MIGHT have happened if Nynaeve and Elayne had taken on Rahvin alone. We reason them out as well as they can, and I believe based on the way I read this, that they could indeed have killed him, but paid a price for it with their lives. RJ deliberately set up the story to give the Shadow an overwhelming advantage that could only be defeated with the aid of three powerful ta'veren and every other SFC and SMC (strong female/male characters) caught up in the web of their ta'veren nature. An unfair advantage, one that cannot simply be defeated with cheap pulp fantasy resolutions like a pair of half-trained young women sneaking disguised into a fortified palace occupied by evil people, whack the leader in front of them and prance right back out again, savior and hero to the masses. I'm speaking in absolutes, because I believe it's unreasonable to expect they could have done that.

 

To suggest otherwise indicates that the ta'veren nature is almost worthless, that the Dragon is a buffoon that got his friends and allies killed even with the help of Heroines far more talented and less powerful than he, simply because he was to ignorant to "sneak in, kill the bad guys and walk away". That's unreal to me. That alternative makes this into a story other than what it is, the Dragoness(es) Reborn, not just supergirls, but mini-goddesses who can wave their hands and trounce age-old evil with their sparkling fingers. Not a one of the Forsaken who knows about their actions would do a thing against them, Rahvin too incompetent and unskilled to see it coming, not a single threat to them that they can't simply subvert with a disguise and balefire.

 

That might sound reasonable to you, but it does not to me.

 

In terms of PR for the AS the only one that really needs to say it is the Daughter Heir. Have her take the oaths and make a proclamation to the world and btw no the LT is not nearly as corrupted.

 

That assumes she's even still alive, which you haven't made a case for. Assume that she is though. How does her word stand up against the White Tower's? One insists that there are no Forsaken, while the uncrowned Daughter-Heir insists, supposedly under an oath rod to a Tower that isn't officially recognized, insists she did. Even IF she was believed, there's the matter of the Tower's authority being damaged even further. Forsaken Field Day.

 

Edit: It's almost comedy at this point, people keep creating more and more far fetched reasons for them being unable to pull it off, meanwhile the longer this debate goes on the more obvious it becomes that its not really a stretch that they would succeed in the slightest.

 

Seriously dude, my responses to your posts have been no more "farfetched" than your insistence that Nynaeve and Elayne could have done alone without danger what was deadly to the point of costing Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean their lives for the Dragon Reborn, a second ta'veren and a horde of Aiel helpers, not to mention Nynaeve and her pet Forsaken. Unreal.

 

Like I said, they might certainly have killed Rahvin, but to suggest they could do so without an incredibly high chance of death? Why ignore the real threats that existed before, or act as if the girls are trained in Linked Battle?

[Luckers]

Alright, this is where everyone gets the calm down nod.

 

I'll throw in a 'get back on topic' glare while I'm at it. :)

[Suttree]

What you don't seem to get is that this whole sub-thread, the entire Rahvin Hypothetical is nothing but assumption and speculation. We have nothing more than our guesses of what MIGHT have happened if Nynaeve and Elayne had taken on Rahvin alone.

 

What I get is while arguing your point of view you are speaking in absolutes such as "were such a sneak attack performed successfully (unlike Rand's battle royale), it would literally be the word of two dead Aes Sedai assassins". Or even worse making untrue claims about the books like "the tairens died" and earlier taking about how they would be murdering the owner of "two nations". Attempt to prove your point but don't base them off false claims or assumed absolutes.

 

Seriously dude, my responses to your posts have been no more "farfetched" than your insistence that Nynaeve and Elayne could have done alone without danger what was deadly to the point of costing Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean their lives for the Dragon Reborn, a second ta'veren and a horde of Aiel helpers, not to mention Nynaeve and her pet Forsaken. Unreal.

 

Please show me where I have stated anything of the sort happening without danger? There is a far gap between that and certain death(even certain death at the hand of non channelers after they win apparently ) Also why are you all of a sudden talking about only Elayne and Nyn? No one ever limited things to those two. This is what I am talking about above. You keep trying to put conditions to make it more difficult. Things like all the women in the attack would be linked so they can't split enough flows to capture assailants, they don't know travelling, killing a forsaken = PR disaster. All false and that is why its getting more far fetched. Instead of presenting realistic points you are fabricating excuses. I think it is likely they could defeat him in a scenario so different to the one above that it is rather pointless to compare the two. The other multiple posters that feel the same way have been IMO clearly presenting the winning side in this debate hence my statement in the previous post.

 

As for the topic of the thread. Is it about least favorite character? I'll go with Perrin.

[Kahsm]

All I know is that Egwene could kill him solo.

[Guest PiotrekS]

All I know is that Egwene could kill him solo.

 

Thank you

[MasterAblar]

Please show me where I have stated anything of the sort happening without danger? There is a far gap between that and certain death(even certain death at the hand of non channelers after they win apparently ) Also why are you all of a sudden talking about only Elayne and Nyn? No one ever limited things to those two. This is what I am talking about above. You keep trying to put conditions to make it more difficult. Things like all the women in the attack would be linked so they can't split enough flows to capture assailants, they don't know travelling, killing a forsaken = PR disaster. All false and that is why its getting more far fetched. Instead of presenting realistic points you are fabricating excuses. I think it is likely they could defeat him in a scenario so different to the one above that it is rather pointless to compare the two. The other multiple posters that feel the same way have been IMO clearly presenting the winning side in this debate hence my statement in the previous post.

 

As for the topic of the thread. Is it about least favorite character? I'll go with Perrin.

 

There have been multiple posters on both sides actually.

 

As for least favorite character, that can only go the greatest tool of all, the not-so-awesome Elaida.

 

All I know is that Egwene could kill him solo.

 

Kael, you know you don't want to get into that.

[Tom Sawyer]

The one I hate the most is Tuon. I just find the character so two-dimensional and poorly written. Even worse, she drags down Mat in every scene that she's in with him. Reading about her is like having someone drag their fingernails down a chalkboard.

 

Also, Gawyn's a bonehead.