A TG theory

[maryemi'jigede]

Did anyone else read this, from the Karatheon Cycle, and think of Aslan and the Stone Table?

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

I'm sure it's already been bandied about, but I'm a newbie so please forgive me if I am going over old ground. Have been a WOT follower since '97 but never bothered to check out the online community 'til now, for some reason. Am fascinated with everyone's theories - especially disappointed to see my Taimandred theory shot to smithereens, lol.

[Leyrann]

I can tell you that (nearly) everyone was convinced of Taimandred. I was too.

 

Can you please explain what "Aslan and the Stone Table" is?

 

I recognize Aslan from Narnia (could be you're talking about something different), but I've never really read the series. And I must say I've never seen this being mentioned before.

[FarShainMael]

I believe Aslan (who C. S. Lewis evidently intended to be a representation of Christ) went willingly to his death in place of Edmund, which involved him being sacrificed on a stone table.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aslan#In_The_Lion.2C_the_Witch_and_the_Wardrobe

[maryemi'jigede]

I can tell you that (nearly) everyone was convinced of Taimandred. I was too.

 

Can you please explain what "Aslan and the Stone Table" is?

 

I recognize Aslan from Narnia (could be you're talking about something different), but I've never really read the series. And I must say I've never seen this being mentioned before.

 

OK, I am a terrible waffler so I will to stick to the point (see, bad start already).

 

In CS Lewis' 'The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe', Aslan (a giant lion) was the equivalent of RJ's Dragon, the champion of Good. His nemesis was the White Queen, champion of Evil, who you could say was a super-Mordeth (she had a hand in the destruction of her original civilisation).

 

To pay for Edmund's sin of betrayal (I think it was restricted to that and not the sin of "all") the White Queen demanded that Aslan sacrifice himself on the Stone Table, as payment.

 

Aslan went voluntarily to the Stone Table (Shayol Ghul??) and allowed himself (seriously, seriously big Lion) to be used and abused by the minions of dark magic until the White b-uh, Queen, killed him with her special knife.

 

Lucy and Susan, watching, saw what seemed to them like the end of the world, and in the end Aslan was dead and cold on the table. They attend to his corpse and mourn him for hours (remember the reference to 3 women standing around Rand's corpse?? I think it was a Min viewing??)

 

But the White Queen didn't understand the "old magic". Because Aslan gave himself WILLINGLY, when she killed him on the Stone Table, the old magic of Narnia worked in Aslan's favour. As dawn broke, the Stone Table cracked and Aslan was reborn, shining with light.

 

This is what made me think of Aslan and his 'sacrifice' when I read the bit about "once for mourning and once for life".

 

Hope that makes sense??

[maryemi'jigede]

So I guess, my TG theory is:

 

Rand will be reborn after he sacrifices himself to seal the Bore, with the help of (forgot her name - TheWomanMinSaidWillHelpRandDie), and there will be two dawns on the day he dies, after he is mourned by his 3, possibly reduced to 2, wives (Lucy and Susan have often been compared to Mary and Mary Magdalene). One for mourning (not dying!) and one for birth.

 

And I have no facts to back this up other than a weak link between CS Lewis' Narnia and RJ's WOT. LOL. I don't know enough, but maybe RJ read CS Lewis too.

[Majsju]

the concept of a 'champion' (phaw, how I loathe that word) sacrifying himself one way or another is not exactly a new concept. There is however one huge difference between Aslan and Rand. Narnia, as good a story it is, is basically christian propaganda. Asalan is Jesus, ane his death on the stone table is lewis' version of the crucifiction.

 

RJ however draws from a multitude of stories, and several of the characters that influenced him are far less willing to just roll over and take it. Also, while RJ was a religious man, he was not interested in writing religious propaganda like Lewis did, he wanted to tell a good story. Which means the religious undertones are much weaker. (Even though parts of TOM are starting to make me a bit worried).

 

So, no, I don't see Rands coming death and undeath being much of a parallell to Aslan. And if it does end up that way, it would be the biggest mistake RJ ever did as a writer, as it would radically change the story we have been told so far.

[maryemi'jigede]

the concept of a 'champion' (phaw, how I loathe that word) sacrifying himself one way or another is not exactly a new concept. There is however one huge difference between Aslan and Rand. Narnia, as good a story it is, is basically christian propaganda. Asalan is Jesus, ane his death on the stone table is lewis' version of the crucifiction.

 

RJ however draws from a multitude of stories, and several of the characters that influenced him are far less willing to just roll over and take it. Also, while RJ was a religious man, he was not interested in writing religious propaganda like Lewis did, he wanted to tell a good story. Which means the religious undertones are much weaker. (Even though parts of TOM are starting to make me a bit worried).

 

So, no, I don't see Rands coming death and undeath being much of a parallell to Aslan. And if it does end up that way, it would be the biggest mistake RJ ever did as a writer, as it would radically change the story we have been told so far.

 

Oh, I'm sure RJ has not led us up the garden path to a sermon! I guess what I am saying is that the passage from the KC reminded me of the story of Aslan and his sacrifice (dying to save Edmund) and so I let my imagination run with it. Maybe, just maybe, RJ was inspired by it too, but I trust that he has messed with it enough to make sure it is not Christian propaganda-ish.

 

I guess I only make the link because it set my thoughts down this path... I think it could be possible that Rand will suddenly see that he really does have to die to save the world, which means the Foretelling (or was it Min's viewing, someone put me straight) about three women mourning over Rand's body, would fit in with this theory. And then he'll be re-born, and there'll be a lot of bright Light, yada yada.

 

Again - just a theory!!! :)

[FarShainMael]

It was certainly Lewis' intention to tell the story of Christ's redemption of humanity in a way accessible to children, and equally that was certainly not RJ's objective. Nevertheless, there are a lot of parallels to Christ in Rand. VoG could correspond to the Transfiguration, and also (IMO) the Resurrection, as I've suggested elsewhere. Rand Sedai is neither LTT nor TR-Rand, but a new, integrated entity that we haven't seen before. Moreover, he was away for three days between his aborted balefiring of Tam and his reappearance in Tear, as BS has Nynaeve comment (rather pointedly!) in ToM12. Christ's death and Resurrection spanned three days.

 

So although I expect to see Rand Sedai die in the body during TG, I don't expect a second rebirth: "Twice to live and twice to die". I think he's on his second life now. "Once for mourning, once for birth" I think is about something else.

 

(OOps.. got twice on the brain!! )

[FarShainMael]

the concept of a 'champion' (phaw, how I loathe that word)

 

Why on earth? Have a look at meaning 4 here:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/champion

[maryemi'jigede]

It was certainly Lewis' intention to tell the story of Christ's redemption of humanity in a way accessible to children, and equally that was certainly not RJ's objective. Nevertheless, there are a lot of parallels to Christ in Rand. VoG could correspond to the Transfiguration, and also (IMO) the Resurrection, as I've suggested elsewhere. Rand Sedai is neither LTT nor TR-Rand, but a new, integrated entity that we haven't seen before. Moreover, he was away for three days between his aborted balefiring of Tam and his reappearance in Tear, as BS has Nynaeve comment (rather pointedly!) in ToM12. Christ's death and Resurrection spanned three days.

 

So although I expect to see Rand Sedai die in the body during TG, I don't expect a second rebirth: "Twice to live and twice to die". I think he's on his second life now. "Twice for mourning, twice for birth" I think is about something else.

 

OK, so I totally get what you're saying! I think the whole Christ story is not original, in fact from very dusty memories of old lectures, the Christ story was modelled on pagan stories of "champions" of the gods (lol, there's that word again!). So I don't think RJ could be seen as using Christian themes IF the demise and rebirth of Rand just happened to have some similarities to the Aslan story, which was definitely Christ-modelled. So I totally agree with you there.

 

But my interpretation of the prophecy is different. Here it is in it's entirety (from the WOT encyclopaedia):

 

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth.

Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

 

To me, it seems the line "twice to live and twice to die" means "twice marked to live and twice marked to die" So not dying twice and living twice, if that makes sense?

 

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.

Once for mourning, once for birth."

 

To me, those two lines read like: there will be two dawns on the day he dies, the dawn of the day of the battle when he presumably dies ("once for mourning"), and the dawn that comes with his rebirth ("once for birth").

 

 

I don't know, am I reading it wrong?

[FarShainMael]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that. We've all got our own interpretations of those passages; we'll know next year which are correct (if any ) I would suggest that the emphasis on 'twice' is very significant, though.

 

(I've heard that about supposed pagan origins for Christian traditions. Some of those claims are interesting (Mithras?), some are inaccurate (Egyptian 'trinities'?), and some are downright silly - such as the circular shape of the Host making it sun-worship, rather than being a natural shape for a piece of hand-made unleavened bread! I'm RC myself, so it won't surprise you to hear that I have a different view to that of your lecturer.) /OT

[maryemi'jigede]

(OOps.. got twice on the brain!! )

 

LOL - s'OK, I knew what you meant!

[maryemi'jigede]

(I've heard that about supposed pagan origins for Christian traditions. Some of those claims are interesting (Mithras?), some are inaccurate (Egyptian 'trinities'?), and some are downright silly - such as the circular shape of the Host making it sun-worship, rather than being a natural shape for a piece of hand-made unleavened bread! I'm RC myself, so it won't surprise you to hear that I have a different view to that of your lecturer.) /OT

 

Honestly - can't remember the specific pagan cultures or myths that were discussed and I am too lazy to research tonight (lol). We are talking nearly 10 years ago now, my poor brain will explode if I try harder, maybe some of the other historians on DM can help out. I hope I don't sound like I am critical of Christianity, quite the opposite actually - I guess you could call me a very broad-minded Christian, lol.

 

Going back to the theory that Rand may be re-born (Aslan and Christ theories aside) and only be re-born because he did it willingly... the more I think about it, the more it makes sense!!! But like my beloved Taimandred theory I am sure it will be shot down!!! :)

[FarShainMael]

Wait until you get on to Olver and Gaidal Cain..

 

I (like a lot of people) thought Olver was GC reborn. He isn't. He's too old; GC was spun out no more than a couple of years ago, and Olver is nine or ten roughly.

 

Oddly, I just cannot whip up any interest in Demandred. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mat do a Couladin to him!

 

Your point about Rand being a willing sacrifice I think may be crucial, now that I think about it. Otherwise the DO may grab his soul as he dies. I think it's been mentioned somewhere that self-sacrifice protects against that. Was it Ingtar that was about?

[tlburchhardt]

To me, those two lines read like: there will be two dawns on the day he dies, the dawn of the day of the battle when he presumably dies ("once for mourning"), and the dawn that comes with his rebirth ("once for birth").

 

I am curious what will happen with Rand's bonds when he goes in to Shayol Ghul. What if all his ladies can't sense him anymore? They may all assume that he is dead. After he kicks some butt he then walks out of Shayol Ghul and everyone is like, "Oh cool, he's not dead!"

 

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow

 

Also, as a side note, everyone was freaking out about 13x13 for a while, but it sounds to me like Rand will be able to fix it.

[mb]

As far as I recall, this is the first thread comparing Rand to Aslan.

Though there have been posts of comparing Rand with Christ/Jesus.

Do recall other-site pages comparing Aslan with Christ/Jesus.

 

Do agree with the similarities of Rand and Aslan.

 

Not sure about the similarities of their respective death scenes.

-their death was prophecied, but the prophecy for Aslan's was not specifically for Aslan.

-Aslan's was to pay for 1 person; Rand's will be for the whole world.

[baalsmistress]

I've always thought "Eclipse"

[maryemi'jigede]

Not sure about the similarities of their respective death scenes.

-their death was prophecied, but the prophecy for Aslan's was not specifically for Aslan.

-Aslan's was to pay for 1 person; Rand's will be for the whole world.

 

Agreed!

 

Other thoughts:

 

Aslan went to his death trusting in the old magic, whereas Rand may go to his death trusting in the prophecies or his own faith in the Light (sorry, I know this is coming very close to the Christ debate again).

 

I think the part of the Narnia-WOT link that I am most interested in is the part of Aslan's willing sacrifice and then his rebirth...in CS Lewis' sotry, the rebirth couldn't happen unless Aslan went willingly. With all the hints about Alivia helping Rand to die (maybe because none of his other women will do it???) this inspired tmy little theory that at the last moment Rand will suddenly realise he has to die to live. Also, the way CS Lewis writes, it's as if Aslan's coming brings the dawn, rather than Aslan returns with the Dawn. Which makes me think of Rand's titles - Prince of the Dawn...Lord of the Morning... LOTS of cool little similarities in the two the more I think about it. :) If anything it's just fun to make the comparisons!!

 

Also I think that it would be unfair to lump the WOT story with a religious propaganda argument - the champion's story is not a purely Christian concept, it's just such an old (but good!) formula. Evil forces, a champion who has to put everything he treasures, including his life, aside to make sure the world survives, and is rewarded for his selflessness by a chance at a new life. It's just a good formula, used in lots of great tales, myths and legends over the years and in many cultures. It's a "human" story and I don't think RJ should be criticised for using such a good formula, just because the Bible happens to use the same one.

 

I'm not saying that Rand is no more than a re-hashed copy - RJ's taken the champion concept and made it his own. Rand is the ultimate champion; flawed and full of doubt, but completely awesome, and in the end he will kick butt and be rewarded for it....otherwise I will be seriously, seriously bitter!!!

[LeeM.Erickson]

I'm RC myself...

 

Rosicrucian? I'm into Western Hermeticism as well.

 

As for the actual topic...yeah, there's many, many theories about the twice dawning day.

 

I like that you referenced the "Twice and twice" prophecy as possibly meaning "Twice and twice shall he be marked, [he will be marked] twice to live, and twice to die" instead of the more popular idea that he will be live twice and die twice.

 

I don't know which is the right answer, but it goes to show how the prophecies can be interpreted in so many ways.

[FarShainMael]

I'm RC myself...

 

Rosicrucian? I'm into Western Hermeticism as well.

 

As for the actual topic...yeah, there's many, many theories about the twice dawning day.

 

I like that you referenced the "Twice and twice" prophecy as possibly meaning "Twice and twice shall he be marked, [he will be marked] twice to live, and twice to die" instead of the more popular idea that he will be live twice and die twice.

 

I don't know which is the right answer, but it goes to show how the prophecies can be interpreted in so many ways.

 

What under the Light is Rosicrucian/Hermeticism? RC is a common abbr for Roman Catholic.

 

Was the second part of your post to me or to Marye? I go with the 'twice living and twice dying' interpretation myself.

[LeeM.Erickson]

 

What under the Light is Rosicrucian/Hermeticism? RC is a common abbr for Roman Catholic.

 

Was the second part of your post to me or to Marye? I go with the 'twice living and twice dying' interpretation myself.

 

Haha, sorry, I've seen RC for Rosicrucian before. Roman Catholic is much more common :P

 

Yeah, I go with twice living/twice dying instead of "marked twice to live/die" as well, but I did consider the other as misinterpreting prophecies is pretty common, and the wording could lend itself to either.

[maryemi'jigede]

Yeah, I must say I just can't see past the twice marked rather than twice dying and twice living. Only because the whole first part of the prophecy is talking about the marks. But if I read the line on it's own and out of context, I would definitely think it meant he would die twice and live twice.

[FarShainMael]

Yeah, I must say I just can't see past the twice marked rather than twice dying and twice living. Only because the whole first part of the prophecy is talking about the marks. But if I read the line on it's own and out of context, I would definitely think it meant he would die twice and live twice.

 

I read the second line as the reason why he's twice marked.

A total of four marks, four 'life events'.