Something of an experiment: Success (in my view)

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers -

 

I still have no idea where you get the notion that Graendal and Rahvin were waiting together in Caemlyn.

 

They had an agreement that when Sammael was attacked they would respond as individuals and as a group of individuals defeat Rand. There would be no circle. None of them trusted each other enough to allow anyone to lead or control a circle. They had no idea specifically when Rand would attack. They had no specific knowledge about everything he considered necessary to launch such an attack, nor did they know how far along those preparations were. All they knew was that it sould be sometime fairly soon.

 

None of them are thumb twiddlers. They're not going to huddle together as a group and wait patiently for "sometime fairly soon" to get there. They all have other plans afoot, and their own gardens to tend. Until "sometime" gets there, and the alarm goes out, they would be tending to those gardens. Graendal, in particular, is not going to abandon her little garden of fleshy delights to spend time with somebody as thoroughly disagreeable as Rahvin. Rahvin wouldn't let her even if she were willing.

 

One thing that Jordan has clearly established is that while the Forsaken hate everyone and everything, they hate and fear each other most. Rahvin and Graendal were not holding hands and singing, "We Shall Overcome" while waiting for Rand to attack Sam.

[Cybertrolloc]

Luckers -

There would be no circle. None of them trusted each other enough to allow anyone to lead or control a circle. They had no idea specifically when Rand would attack.

Explain Sam linking with Graendal, or is that something that has to be explained away even though it's crystal clear what's going on in the text? :P

[Jonn]

Luckers -

There would be no circle. None of them trusted each other enough to allow anyone to lead or control a circle. They had no idea specifically when Rand would attack.

Explain Sam linking with Graendal' date=' or is that something that has to be explained away even though it's crystal clear what's going on in the text? :[/b']

 

That is a totally different situation. Sammael basically forced Graendal to link with him and this was long after the accord between the four had fallen completely apart.

 

Graendal yielded to Sammael because she somehow thought that he had been promised naeblis (even though he had not been).

[RobertAlexWillis]

They had an agreement that when Sammael was attacked they would respond as individuals and as a group of individuals defeat Rand. There would be no circle. None of them trusted each other enough to allow anyone to lead or control a circle.

 

Ahem ... allow me to quote:

 

From, A Silver Arrow, chapter 43 of The Fires of Heaven:

 

"He will concentrate on you," the big man [Rahvin] said in a deep, voice. "If need be, one close to him will die, plainly at your order. He will come for you. And while he is fixed on you alone, the three of us [Lanfear, Graendal, and Rahvin], linked, will take him. What has changed to alter any of that?"

 

That is from the scene where the four Forsaken are seated on their ornate Tel'aran'rhiod thrones, discussing their plan, which plainly involves linking. Since Graendal, Rahvin, and Lanfear were to link, and Caemlyn is the only place where we have seen them all, there is your reason for Graendal to be in Caemlyn. Rand deliberately let it be known he was doing "something" big the day he went after Rahvin. He knew Sammael had been baiting him. He let it be known he was doing "something" big so that the Forsaken (who have very quick means of gathering information) would think he was going for Sammael, and then he would surprise Rahvin. It worked. Rahvin was surprised, but if they thought he was going for Sammael, then Graendal would have come to Caemlyn to prepare for the link, specifically mentioned in their planning.

[Jonn]

Jonn, take a deep breath. It's just a story, and Asmodean's just a dead character in it. It's okay to be flippant about fiction, for crying out loud, and it's Robert's thread; he can be crass if he wants. :) For my part, I apologize; it was an unnecessary comment, but not one that was meant to offend. Still, I retract the monkey remark.

 

Graendal is a good choice because she seems to know that Asmo's dead, and just because Rahvin didn't run around bragging about a stash doesn't mean he didn't have one! Graendal found a stasis box all by herself (that's where that streith gown came from) long before she looted Sammael, and for all we know, she found it in Rahvin's hall closet.

 

Graendal also seems to know that Lanfear is dead too. How do you explain that?

 

I know how. It's in Lord of Chaos. She met with Mesaana, Semirhage and Demandred and Demandred told them. How Does Demandred know? He was told by the Dark One.

 

Let me get to the counter before you do if you would indulge me.

 

She could guess that Lanfear is dead because she never showed up or let anyone know about Rand attacking Caemlyn. Lanfear never gave the signal. She was after all the one who was imbedded with Rand's group ever since the Waste. Lanfear is AWOL...but then, she is Lanfear. She has a known history of playing her own game. She was in love with Lews Therin. For all anyone knew, Lanfear was setting THEM up. Her absence could have easily been taken as her being her.

 

No, but Graendal is equally SURE that Lanfear is dead. As sure as she is about Asmodean being dead...

 

The best explanation is that she is simply giving Sammael AN answer. He had duped her, rather easily into thinking that he had the advantage, and so she made as if to cough up what she knew. Everything she told him is pretty much the same as what she might have heard from Demandred at the meeting. Sammael might have heard the same if he had actually attended, but it's his loss that he has to hear it third hand from Graendal and she was able to use that information as some sort of morsel to stall Sammael.

 

Finally, about speculating what Rahvin had and did not have...that is a false trail. It's not even suggested in the text that Graendal got anything out of Caemlyn. There isn't anything she could have gotten there that she couldn't have gotten somewhere else and easier. Tanchico comes to mind, for instance. Much closer to her base of operations and contact with Moghedien could have given her the idea to look there. No rival around either to shoo her away from looking unimpeded.

 

No, it's rather clear that the only thing of interest in Caemlyn is that it is the seat of power for the largest and probably the most influential country in the known continent.

 

Unless Graendal had a plan to seize the throne of Andor, there was no real reason for her to venture into Caemlyn.

 

Illian? Yes. Sammael had played her, and he had tipped her off into thinking that there was a cache in Illian for her to pillage.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Unless Graendal had a plan to seize the throne of Andor, there was no real reason for her to venture into Caemlyn.

 

The plan the Forsaken discussed in the chapter I quoted above (tFoH, chapter 34, A Silver Arrow) was for someone close to Al'Thor die, apparently at Sammael's order, to goad him into an attack, after which Graendal, Lanfear, and Rahvin would link and take him. Melindhra's attempt to kill Mat with the dagger with nine bees on the hilt (apparently at Sammael's order) was the very night before Rand went for Rahvin. It actually occurred after Rand got the news of Morgase. The Forsaken were expecting Rand to go for Sammael that day, because they planned for him to be avenging Mat. The attack happened as Mat was going to bed, and he may not have been discovered until the next morning if it had worked. Rand, full of rage and not thinking, would dive into the trap.

 

Obviously it didn't work. But according to their plan, Graendal, Rahvin, and Lanfear would have to meet and be linked and ready to pounce. They probably met in Caemlyn that morning, then Lanfear went to Cairhien to check on what Rand was doing so they would know when to be ready, and got sidetracked when she found out about Rand and Aviendha's adventures in the sack. She loses it, comes out pissed, and gets tackled into Finn-land by Moiraine. Rand then goes to Caemlyn where Graendal and Rahvin are waiting for Lanfear to return. Rahvin's traps get tripped, Grandal says see ya, and Rand kills Rahvin. Graendal either hides or more likely comes back later that day to see how things fell out, spots Asmodean, and makes an opportunistic killing. She probably blamed Asmodean for Rand managing to turn things on the cabal, or at least, blamed his teaching. The only way she could reduce Rand's power without risking his strength head on was to cut off his teacher, who also was a traitor.

[Luckers]

Given that Rhavin's wards were active at that moment its possible that Graendal didn't wish to risk channeling enough to make a gateway, but either way, Robert has the right of it.

[Jonn]

Unless Graendal had a plan to seize the throne of Andor, there was no real reason for her to venture into Caemlyn.

 

The plan the Forsaken discussed in the chapter I quoted above (tFoH, chapter 34, A Silver Arrow) was for someone close to Al'Thor die, apparently at Sammael's order, to goad him into an attack, after which Graendal, Lanfear, and Rahvin would link and take him. Melindhra's attempt to kill Mat with the dagger with nine bees on the hilt (apparently at Sammael's order) was the very night before Rand went for Rahvin. It actually occurred after Rand got the news of Morgase. The Forsaken were expecting Rand to go for Sammael that day, because they planned for him to be avenging Mat. The attack happened as Mat was going to bed, and he may not have been discovered until the next morning if it had worked. Rand, full of rage and not thinking, would dive into the trap.

 

Obviously it didn't work. But according to their plan, Graendal, Rahvin, and Lanfear would have to meet and be linked and ready to pounce. They probably met in Caemlyn that morning, then Lanfear went to Cairhien to check on what Rand was doing so they would know when to be ready, and got sidetracked when she found out about Rand and Aviendha's adventures in the sack. She loses it, comes out pissed, and gets tackled into Finn-land by Moiraine. Rand then goes to Caemlyn where Graendal and Rahvin are waiting for Lanfear to return. Rahvin's traps get tripped, Grandal says see ya, and Rand kills Rahvin. Graendal either hides or more likely comes back later that day to see how things fell out, spots Asmodean, and makes an opportunistic killing. She probably blamed Asmodean for Rand managing to turn things on the cabal, or at least, blamed his teaching. The only way she could reduce Rand's power without risking his strength head on was to cut off his teacher, who also was a traitor.

 

They probably met in Caemlyn that morning, then Lanfear went to Cairhien

 

Ok, see, I had to highlight this part of your theory.

 

You're saying that they were all waiting in Caemlyn ready for Rand to attack Sammael, and then Lanfear inexplicably leaves to check on Rand...If they're so sure about what he's going to do why does she have to go to Caemlyn and then come back to Cairhien, just to come back to Caemlyn again?

 

First of all, where is it in the books that they all met up in Caemlyn just before the attack? Again, where was it in the books where Lanfear needs to come back supposedly from Caemlyn where they are all gathered, to then go to Cairhien?

 

Again, when are we supposed to believe up until she finds out about Aviendha, that Lanfear actually wants to kill Rand?

 

Are we supposed to forget that she had been plotting all of this time to remove her rivals amongst the Forsaken one by one, even using Rand to do it? Are we supposed to belive that she actually wanted Rand to fall into the trap?

 

Let us go back to the part I highlighted. What makes you believe that the Forsaken trust Lanfear enough to meet with her on her terms and just sit there while she "checks on things" in Cairhien?

 

Lanfear: "Oh, glad we can make this simple and meet here in CAEMLYN, Rahvin and Graendal. Lews Th-I mean, al'Thor should be finding his friend's body right about now, but you know, just to make sure...I'm going to go on over to his camp again to see what's up-no no, don't get up! You two stay right here and sit tight. I'm sure there's a lot for you to chat about. I'll only be a moment. I just want to make sure everything is going according to my-er, I mean OUR plan. You two stay here now for mmmmmmaybe a few hours or half a day or so. I certainly won't get sidetracked because this trap must work out just right so that, you know...we can all benefit from the Dark One when he returns, and share power and all of that good stuff. Trust me, I'm not planning anything behind your backs. I'm with this all the way! Stay here, I mean it. No looking, now..." *travel*

 

*Awkward silence*

 

Graendal: (turns stiffly towards Rahvin) "Wanna play Clue?"

Rahvin: "Sure, let me get the game out of my stasis box."

[Luckers]

That has to be the emptiest sequence of objections i've ever seen.

 

Let me preface my response with drawing your attention to the fact that the Forsaken did have a plan, and had just instigated it. Cry out that Lanfear intended to betray them--which indeed i believe she did--all that you want, it is fact that whatever reason that had to distrust each other, they STILL had at this stage implemented the plan, and followed through with it. This was not just a lose plan that none of them really intended to back. Moghedian states that Graendal and Rahvin were in place, the action to lure Rand had been undertaken, Lanfear was in position to alert the others to Rands reaction. This was a plan that was underway.

 

Which means that yes, they would have gathered that morning somewhere, to wait for the news that Rand had attacked Sammael.

 

Now, specifically in response to each.

 

You're saying that they were all waiting in Caemlyn ready for Rand to attack Sammael, and then Lanfear inexplicably leaves to check on Rand...

 

Lanfear was always responsible for monitoring Rand... why on earth wouldn't she check on him just after the Forsaken had implemented their plan. Indeed, they needed to know when he launched his attack on Sammael in order to react to it, so one of them had to be watching him.

 

First of all, where is it in the books that they all met up in Caemlyn just before the attack? Again, where was it in the books where Lanfear needs to come back supposedly from Caemlyn where they are all gathered, to then go to Cairhien?

 

To the first, they were gathering in response to the implementation of their plan, for Lanfear Graendal and Rhavin would be linking, which does, you know, require physical closeness. This is in the books.

 

So yes, they had to gather somewhere on that morning. So why Caemlyn?

 

Well, since neither Graendal's or Lanfears base of operation was known to the others, so they are out. Those particular Forsaken have used Caemlyn before to gather in this particular plan. Illian is a possibility, and to a lesser extent Tel'Aran'Rhiod, though the logistics of that in reacting to an assault on Sammael make it unlikely.

 

But thats ignoring the simple fact that we know that Rahvin was in Caemlyn at this time, therefore since he did not go to them, it must be concluded that they came to him. And before you say it, yes they would have had to come to him. He had agreed to join them in the assault which means at that Lanfear would have come to him to inform him that the assault on Sammael was underway, since Graendal also needed to know that, but hadn't revealed her location then she would have had to have been waiting in a place that Lanfear could find her in... specifically again, Caemlyn.

 

Again, when are we supposed to believe up until she finds out about Aviendha, that Lanfear actually wants to kill Rand?

 

Er... what? I mean really, why on earth would Lanfear be trying to kill Rand at this stage... she still loved him. The plan was to capture Rand.

 

Are we supposed to forget that she had been plotting all of this time to remove her rivals amongst the Forsaken one by one, even using Rand to do it? Are we supposed to belive that she actually wanted Rand to fall into the trap?

 

Certainly not... but what on earth does that have to do with anything? For all intents and purposes, the plan had been initiated. Just because Lanfear likely intended to deviate later does not change the fact that at that stage everything was still following the original plan. and that certainly doesn't stop Graendal and Rahvin from having gathered to wait for Lanfear to report that the assault on Sammael had begun.

 

Additionally it seems far more likely to me that Lanfear would have saught control of the link, and used it to control Graendal and Rahvin, whilst shielding both Sammael and Rand. She wasn't planning to simply abandon the plan altogether.

 

Let us go back to the part I highlighted. What makes you believe that the Forsaken trust Lanfear enough to meet with her on her terms and just sit there while she "checks on things" in Cairhien?

 

Dude, this was a plan that they had initiated as a whole. They weren't 'waiting on Lanfear' just willy nilly. They had fallen in line with the plan. Mat had been attacked, Sammael was waiting to be attacked in turn. Moghedian states that both Graendal and Rahvin were in position to respond.

 

They could not go anywhere else without abandoning the plan. Lanfear could not have found Graendal, so for the fulfilment of the plan Graendal had to be in a position to join with Rahvin and Lanfear when they recieved word that the attack had begun.

 

As for the rest of your absurd post... bah!

[RobertAlexWillis]

Luckers my friend ... in all seriousness this is futile. Jonn is the reason I swore off the official "Who killed Asmodean" thread, and why, regrettably, I am signing off of this one too.

 

You have to pick battles you can win, and this isn't one. I'm not even sure Jonn would believe it if RJ came to his house with Amsodean's ghost and they both said "-Anyone besides Moiraine- did it". I guess I'll just have to say: I disagree with you, Jonn, so let's hope Jordan chooses to wrap it up in A Memory of Light.

[Luckers]

Indeed, its why i avoid Asmodean threads as well. I second what robert says.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Robert -

 

You and Luckers both do make one very big mistake in your assumptions:

 

That the attack on Mat was a primary part of their plan.

 

It wasn't. It was Plan B.

 

They already had a number of straws in the wind - all pointing to Sammael. If Rand proved to be so clueless that he didn't follow the bright neon arrows to Illian, then, and only then would Mat be assassinated so as to force an attack on Sam.

 

The night before the attack on Caemlyn, Rand did NOT make it known that he had something big planned. He very quietly let those he trusted know exactly that he had decided to attack Rahvin because he believed Rahvin had killed Morgase. Mat then stupidly blabbed about it to Melindrha. She then, seeing that Plan A had failed and Plan B was necessary, tried to kill Mat so as to force the attack on Sam as she had been ordered to do in such a case.

 

In short, as of the time Rand actually gated into Caemlyn, none of the Forsaken had any idea that he was not still on target to attack Sam in Illian just as soon as his preparations were complete.

 

If, in fact, ANY of the four had actually intended to follow through on the linking idea, and Graendal had been in Caemlyn when Rand attacked, then those two ( Rahvin and Graendal ) would have linked so as to face Rand with the strongest force they could present. Since such a link never occured, Graendal wasn't there to play her part in it.

 

BTW, the context of your quote regarding the link, makes very clear that Rahvin had no intention of submitting to any such thing, and didn't believe any of the others did either. None of them trusted any of the others enough to allow one of them to be in control of a circle. The stated plan never would have been implemented. IF Rand had attacked Sam, and IF all three of the others had responded, it would have been as individuals, just as it was at Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing.

[Luckers]

You and Luckers both do make one very big mistake in your assumptions:

 

That the attack on Mat was a primary part of their plan.

 

It wasn't. It was Plan B.

 

The attack on mat was undertaken in the effort to make Rand attack Sammael. It was undertaken that night. There is no mistake.

 

If, in fact, ANY of the four had actually intended to follow through on the linking idea, and Graendal had been in Caemlyn when Rand attacked, then those two ( Rahvin and Graendal ) would have linked so as to face Rand with the strongest force they could present. Since such a link never occured, Graendal wasn't there to play her part in it.

 

Graendal would never join Rahvin in fighting Rand. She acts only when certain of victory, and without Lanfear and Sammael also fighting in a place of their choosing you can be damn sure she flit off into the background and leave Rahvin to his fate.

 

BTW, the context of your quote regarding the link, makes very clear that Rahvin had no intention of submitting to any such thing, and didn't believe any of the others did either.

 

Well that just blatantly wrong. Rahvin's comment was that he would go along with this plan unless it interefered with one of his own.

[Jonn]

If, in fact, ANY of the four had actually intended to follow through on the linking idea, and Graendal had been in Caemlyn when Rand attacked, then those two ( Rahvin and Graendal ) would have linked so as to face Rand with the strongest force they could present. Since such a link never occured, Graendal wasn't there to play her part in it.

 

Graendal would never join Rahvin in fighting Rand. She acts only when certain of victory, and without Lanfear and Sammael also fighting in a place of their choosing you can be damn sure she flit off into the background and leave Rahvin to his fate.

 

Then what the heck is she doing in Caemlyn in the first place then?!

 

Lanfear is not there. It's NOT a sure thing that Rand will attack Illian even though that's the plan. What is she doing waiting around in her rival's territory when she has no intention of aiding him in any way?

 

None of this is in the books, mind you.

 

Also, I think you have her mixed up with Moghedien. At that point in the story we have little to go by to predict how she reacts in situations.

 

In Winter's Heart we get a clear picture of how she reacts when it's in her interest to. She went to Shadar Logoth to try to stop the Cleansing, and she went in guns blazing, attacking a not inconsiderable circle and with large amounts of Saidin and Saidar being thrown about all over the area.

 

It was Moghedien who sat back and watched.

 

It's just as easy to assume that she would stay and fight if caught by surprise.

 

Instead, you and others have her leaving, then coming back again, hanging around for an undetermined amount of time, killing Asmodean by luck or whatever, and then her leaving again and never mentioning it ever.

 

To make this work you have Lanfear assembling them, then leaving, then she was supposed to come back again.

 

You then have Rahvin setting traps so that anyone who channels saidin will trigger them, yet he lets his rivals come in and out of his territory several times on a whim and on the faith that a half-baked plan is going to come off.

 

How is any of this not looking convoluted, even to you?

 

How does this scenario score a home run in the obvious department on first read?

 

It doesn't. Fact is, nothing does, not unless it's in the text.

 

None of this in and out of Caemlyn scenario with Lanfear and Graendal works, because there is no evidence of it happening.

 

BTW, the context of your quote regarding the link, makes very clear that Rahvin had no intention of submitting to any such thing, and didn't believe any of the others did either.

 

Well that just blatantly wrong. Rahvin's comment was that he would go along with this plan unless it interefered with one of his own.

 

So he will or won't link with Graendal...what are you trying to say here?

 

OK, here's me on this. I come here to chat and post about the Wheel of Time. I participate if I am interested in the topic. Contrary to belief, I don't delight in tormenting people about technicalities or any of that. If I feel a certain way about something, I am not going to hide or hold back for the sake of people with less conviction. If you feel the need to exit a thread because you cannot continue to argue your point, don't get all butt hurt towards me and blame me and s#*+. I'm not trying to make you quit threads. I'm not here to bully anyone or to just be obstinate for the sake of it. I argue what I believe and I won't apologize for it. If you believe it's personal, then that's up to you to sort out. I am not being personal about this. I use whatever wit I can to communicate my point, and if you feel that it's a personal attack, you need to get it straight, because it is not.

 

It's sooo so overdone and cynical to post about a topic, then act surprised that people respond to it and then get your feelings hurt over a topic you started or helped push to a certain point of debate. Yes, your feelings are hurt when you pronounce rather dramatically that you will no longer be participating in the thread any longer, or you moan about participating in such a thread. GROW UP. Like people right here like to remind me, it's just a book.

 

You know what, scratch that...it isn't to me anymore. It's not just a book. I've grown up reading these books. This series has been a part of my life for a long time now. I am allowed and privileged to be passionate about it and unapologetically geeky in my enthusiasm towards any subject within the thousands of pages written by RJ. If you can't handle that-you know...don't just leave now, man. Don't even bother posting then, in the first place. Only thing I'll apologize about here is that, hey, I'm sorry I found your thread so interesting that I had to speak on it. Jeez. Forgive me if I wanted to respond to your holy postings with, oh I don't know, what do you call it? Oh yeah, AN OPINION.

 

You should have read enough of RJ's books to realize that not even in fiction is there a world where everyone just agrees with each other as a matter of course, no matter how intelligent or not, the statement made is. Well, except maybe in the White House, but that's a whole other topic.

[Luckers]

Quote:

Graendal would never join Rahvin in fighting Rand. She acts only when certain of victory, and without Lanfear and Sammael also fighting in a place of their choosing you can be damn sure she flit off into the background and leave Rahvin to his fate.

 

 

Then what the heck is she doing in Caemlyn in the first place then?!

 

Uh... waiting to act upon a plan that does have Lanfear and Sammael, and them fighting in a place of their choosing with the high chance of success... i mean come on dude... duh!

 

Sorry man, im not discussing this with you anymore.

[Jonn]

Quote:

Graendal would never join Rahvin in fighting Rand. She acts only when certain of victory, and without Lanfear and Sammael also fighting in a place of their choosing you can be damn sure she flit off into the background and leave Rahvin to his fate.

 

 

Then what the heck is she doing in Caemlyn in the first place then?!

 

Uh... waiting to act upon a plan that does have Lanfear and Sammael, and them fighting in a place of their choosing with the high chance of success... i mean come on dude... duh!

 

OK, you've said that you won't talk anymore like twice before already and haven't been able to hold off once.

 

You fail to see how awkward your theory is.

 

My quote was remarking on your interesting response saying that Graendal would never join Rahvin in fighting Rand.

 

I responded by saying then why is she there then? The question still stands, and if you'd be so kind as to answer it in context.

 

If she won't link and help Rahvin, what makes you believe she will link with anyone, let alone Lanfear, the least trustworthy of Forsaken you can find.

 

You want it both ways.

 

She's willing to go with the plan, but unwilling to do it under this circumstance or that one. Same thing with Rahvin. He's willing to do this but not that.

 

It's all rubbish.

 

I have a hypothesis about you.

You can take this personally if you like, but it has to do with the heart of your argument and the problem I have with it.

 

You want to quit arguing with me because you can't answer my questions. In fact, you won't.

 

You answer one question (unsatisfactorily) and then ignore five more that have to do with the same question. Then later on after vowing not to speak on it anymore you come back and argue another question (unsatisfactorily) and end up contradicting the other answer you gave before.

It is I, who should be frustrated beyond wanting to participate, because your obtuse dodging tactics. I should be the one who should want to quit, but you know, I don't. I won't. It's too absurd to let stand, these statements. Outside of thinking that they are all totally correct and geniuses for supposedly figuring it out, Graendal theorists seem to think that their arguments are unassailable.

 

I disagree, and you know what, I'm posting here to prove it.

 

I'll leave you with this.

 

You have the four collaborating and basically sure that Rand will attack Illian. You keep mentioning a high chance of success and all that.

 

Why don't they all just wait in Illian? Why wait in Caemlyn? It seems like an unnecessary step for people who are so certain of their success.

 

I mean, Sammael would be right there. Graendal would be there and so would Rahvin. Rand's chances of surprising them there would be zilch. They are banking on Rand attacking Illian and are expecting him to take the bait. Why is it that (conveniently for Graendal theorists) Caemlyn is the choice place to meet up before going to Illian together?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You want to quit arguing with me because you can't answer my questions.

 

If that makes you feel better, you can think it. Right up until you read a Memory of Light. (Assuming Jordan reveals it then ... which I really ... REALLY hope he does ... )

[racha_giurgiu]

So how about Cw's family member/friend that is reading the series for the first time? Any news on the culprit that person felt was the "intuitively obvious" choice?

 

Methinks i was in the "Moiraine/Lanfear" faction when the whole thing went down. from the "you? No!" deal. But now I won't even venture a guess. There are compelling arguments for all of the above. By compelling I mean I rather not be beaten about the head for choosing any one in particular. I just figured I would read the next book and learn whodunit.

[Cybertrolloc]

You (my strawman of Luckers) fail to see how awkward your theory is.

 

My quote was remarking on your interesting response saying that Graendal would never join Rahvin in fighting Rand.

 

I responded by saying then why is she there then? The question still stands' date=' and if you'd be so kind as to answer it in context.[/quote']

He's saying it's not such a stretch of the imagination that Graendal would take part in a planned ambush of Rand attacking Sam in Illian but wouldn't help Rahvin when Rand attacks Caemlyn. However Luckers wrote it more plainly than I have...so I'm wasting my time.

[Graendals favourite]

That's a bit how it often goes. People speak in context, but in different contexts. It can be impossible to speak about specific issues, because what you say, however carefully put forth, will be thrown back at you in a different context, or an argument of a paragraphs worth dissected into small fragments so the replier does not need to consider any interrelations. Too often one gets the feeling that the replier has not bothered to really read the post, but replies to what he believes it says, what he's replied to before. One can only say back, "that may be but it isn't the point," but such a reply is worth nothing to the other party.

[ONeill]

It was someone that Asmodean didn't expect to see. So could it have been Ishameal/Moridin who killed him.

 

I know that he wouldn't know who Moridin is, but Moridin could've used the Mirrors of Mist (or whatever it's called).

 

So Asmodean would be thinking that Ishamael is dead, not knowing that he was back as Moridin. He opens the door and there stands Ishamael; fire in his eyes, and Asmodean goes;

"You!...."

Without getting to say you're dead.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Ishy hadn't been recycled yet. None of them had. At the time "The Fires of Heaven" was written, we had no indication that transmigration would play any part in the series. As far as any reader could know, Ishamael, Aginor, Balthamel, Bel'al, and Rahvin were all dead, dead, dead.

 

And, Jordan has specifically said that everything we need to know to figure out who the killer is/was had been written prior to when the killing happened. Everything we need to know is already there by the time tFoH ends.

[Jonn]

You want to quit arguing with me because you can't answer my questions.

 

If that makes you feel better, you can think it. Right up until you read a Memory of Light. (Assuming Jordan reveals it then ... which I really ... REALLY hope he does ...

 

I do too. Fun as this is, it needs to end.

 

He's saying it's not such a stretch of the imagination that Graendal would take part in a planned ambush of Rand attacking Sam in Illian but wouldn't help Rahvin when Rand attacks Caemlyn. However Luckers wrote it more plainly than I have...so I'm wasting my time.

 

Well, you missed my point as perfectly as he did.

 

If the odds aren't favorable in the first place, why would she expose herself to such danger? The smart thing would be to wait for the signal and then go straight to Illian. I never was given the impression that everyone was supposed to stop off in Caemlyn before heading off to where the action was supposed to be. Why not just wait in Illian?

 

If Lanfear is awol, Sammael is holed up in Illian, and there's no word from either if anything is happening, why the H E hockey sticks would she wait around in an unfavorable tactical posiion, Caemlyn?

 

It defies not only your own logic, but any logic.

 

It's one of THE biggest problems with Graendal's case.

[Luckers]

I appreciate the support, but really, dont talk to him about it. He's deluded.

[Jonn]

I appreciate the support, but really, dont talk to him about it. He's deluded.

 

Typical. Can't get around the point, so you avoid it in this pathetic manner. It's actually kind of sad. If you have no answer, just concede the point. It's rather despicable to say that anyone with even a bit of persistence is deluded.

 

If you have a counter argument, I will address it. I won't sit back and quit like a child and avoid the questions because I can't answer. If you make a point, I will talk about it. If you're not willing to challenge my points intelligently, then put your money where your big mouth is and shut up like you said you would.

 

Otherwise, prove me wrong.

 

You can't.

 

Anyhow I'll move on to people who actually want to talk about this subject.

 

It was someone that Asmodean didn't expect to see. So could it have been Ishameal/Moridin who killed him.

 

No, not Moridin, never introduced yet as Bob mentioned.

 

I agree with your first assessment though. It had to be someone he recognized but was surprised to see. One of the forsaken does not really fit that scenario. He was just thinking about being wanted dead by all of the forsaken. Seeing Sammael or any forsaken would probably just prompt him to mutter an explitive rather resigned like. Seeing someone who is supposed to be dead though...you're on to something there.

 

That's one of the latent clues that's actually in the text. The first impression is that Asmodean was shocked by that person's presence. On further examination, he didn't react to defend himself, which is odd. He's spent much of his later life fighting to survive in hostile environments and enemies all around. Despite his weakened status, he was very wary of danger around him, a fact which was also apparent in the text. The person he saw at the moment of his death was someone that not only shocked him to see, but was someone he didn't immediately see as a threat. That seems strange, but if you think about it, it makes sense. He proved the night before that he could defend himself effectively against shadowspawn. Someone at close range would not be a problem for him if he felt in danger. Fact is he froze upon seeing this person and had enough time to recognize them, but still did not defend himself.

 

Logic says that any living forsaken is his enemy. Seeing any of them would prompt him to defend himself without a word.

 

Someone who is supposed to be dead though...That's why the Moiraine theory doesn't go away so easily. You need only say a couple of things to discount people like Slayer and Moridin, shaidar Haran and Taim. Moiraine is not so easy to eliminate much to the frustration of some.