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Why another vote?


Xcorpyo001
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I'm on another re-read of the series, and I just finished the chapter in which Egwene is chosen as Amyrlin by the WT AS, and the rebel AS had to apologize for their 'transgressions'.

 

"What do you want to do with the sisters from your camp?" Siuan asked. "They're starting to wonder."

"Tell them to gather in front of the Sunset Gate," Egwene said. "Have them stand in ranks by Ajah, with Sitters in a line at the

front. Once I am finished with the ceremony, I will greet them and formally accept their apology for their rebellion and welcome

them back into the Tower."

"Accept their apology?" Siuan asked incredulously.

"They rebelled against the Tower, Siuan," Egwene said, looking at her. "Whatever the need of what they did, there is reason for

apology."

"But you were with them!"

"I no longer represent just them, Siuan," Egwene said firmly. "I represent the Tower. The entire Tower. And the Tower needs to

know that the rebels regret the division. They needn't lie and say that they wished they had stayed, but I think it is appropriate

for them to express sorrow over the hardships the division caused. I will acquit them, and we can get on with healing."

 

 

Why did she accepted the new vote? The Tower AS were in no position to demand anything from her, but by doing this, she lost all her work so far.

She tried to prove to everybody that Elaida had acquired her shawl with the help of the BA, that her decisions were wrong, that she is the real Amyrlin, etc.

For almost half the series, she was the Amyrlin of the Salidar AS, but by deciding to jump ship and be selected by the WT AS as well, she validated Elaida's rule and all her wrong doings.

So, her rule as Amyrlin started only after Elaida was abducted by the Seachan, and Elaida was also right to say that Egwene is a fake Amyrlin, with no real power. Why have am entire arc with her telling everybody that cared to listen that she is the real Amyrlin, and keep Silviana fairly busy for a while, and the moment her side won, she just jumped ship and decided that the rebels were in the wrong, and therefore their decision to chose their own Amyrlin was unlawful.

By only one decision, she undid everything she worked to build in several books. What was the logic in this decision?

 

And if she wanted another vote, why didn't they had it after the reunification, with the WT and the Salidar AS as one entity?

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TGS

"I was raised by the rebels, Siuan," Egwene said sternly. "These women deserve the chance to stand for me as well. Otherwise, I will never have a claim to their loyalty. The ceremony must be performed again."

 

She doesn't jump ship from the Salidar AS, it was a symbolic conciliatory gesture nothing more. It doesn't invalidate anything done in Salidar, shes is just giving the WT AS a chance to vote in addition, note that both sides were chastised for their wrong doing in the situation. It is quite clear they view her reign as starting back then

 

TGS

"Are you certain you want to bear this weight, child?" Saerin asked in a very soft voice. This was not part of the ceremony.

"I bear it already, Saerin." Egwene's reply was almost a whisper. "Elaida cast it aside when she tried to slice it and divide it as she wished. I took it up and have carried it since. I would bear it to my death. And will."

 

In addition all of her initiatives made during her time as the Salidar Amrylin are upheld. Some of them were quite unpopular and if there was even a sliver of truth to her reign starting later, the Sitters would use that to undo them.

 

I think it's actually good that for one of the few times the AS aren't trying to sweep this mistake under the rug. In not denying Elaida's reign they are taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again(new laws enacted etc) at the same time, it is quite clear they are not validating her wrongdoings.

 

"Elaida was a madwoman, and you all know it!" Egwene said sternly, standing tall, staring them down. "You knew it these last few months as she worked unwittingly to destroy us. Light, many of you probably knew it when you raised her in the first place!

 

"There have been foolish Amyrlins before, but none have come as close to tearing down the entire Tower! You are a check upon the Amyrlin. You are to keep her from doing things like this! You allowed her to disband an entire Ajah? What were you thinking? How is it that you allowed the Tower to fall so far? And when the Dragon Reborn himself walks the land, no less!

 

"You should have removed Elaida the moment you heard of her disastrous attempt to confine Rand al'Thor. You should have removed her when you saw how her bickering and pettiness was turning Ajahs against one another. And you should certainly have removed her when she refused to do what was needed to bring the Tower together again, whole as one!"

Edited by Suttree
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I guess she just wanted some sort of public reconsiliation. But I agree it seemed counter produtive and unessesery

 

 

She should have done this better if she united all the Ajahs and use all Sitters to vote for her.

Even this vote is a little off, just like the first one back in Salidar. She used the voting rules proposed by Elaida, without a full Hall.

The Red and Blue Sitters weren't even there, and voting without the Blue at least, not to mention the fact that they were seen like the rebels and the loosing side, and Egwene chose a Keeper from the Red. So by trying to reconcile with the Reds, she made an enemy of the Blue, the only Ajah that stood by her side until now.

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The whole Egwene's arc in later books is as full of holes as Swiss cheese, especially if you look at legal reasoning which plays quite a large role. If Sian's deposition and Elaida's election were invalid because of the lack of necessary number of votes, BA votes being void, then Siuan is still an Amyrlin. If the Amyrlin does not have to be an Aes Sedai, in the same vein the law does not say she must be able to channel. Despite her stilling, Siuan still is a lawful Amyrlin and both Elaida and Egwene are usurpers. Although if Egwene received a necessary number of votes (Salidar hall had a smaller number of BA), then we could say we had two lawfully chosen Amyrlins - Siuan and Egwene.

Then there are two possible ways of thinking:

1. You can't elect a new Amyrlin without first deposing the old one. Therefore, Egwene's election was void.

2. Egwene's election was an implicit deposition of Siuan. It is a weak point, because you should not be able to implicitly impeach the President, but it is an option.

 

The third otion is that both are Amyrlins and it the Tower indeed was split - between Sian and Egwene :tongue:

 

There are lots of inconsistencies like this in this part of the story, but I've thought it is better to let them go in order not to reignite another Egwene shouting match.

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TGS

"I was raised by the rebels, Siuan," Egwene said sternly. "These women deserve the chance to stand for me as well. Otherwise, I will never have a claim to their loyalty. The ceremony must be performed again."

 

She doesn't jump ship from the Salidar AS, it was a symbolic conciliatory gesture nothing more. It doesn't invalidate anything done in Salidar, shes is just giving the WT AS a chance to vote in addition, note that both sides were chastised for their wrong doing in the situation. It is quite clear they view her reign as starting back then

 

TGS

"Are you certain you want to bear this weight, child?" Saerin asked in a very soft voice. This was not part of the ceremony.

"I bear it already, Saerin." Egwene's reply was almost a whisper. "Elaida cast it aside when she tried to slice it and divide it as she wished. I took it up and have carried it since. I would bear it to my death. And will."

 

In addition all of her initiatives made during her time as the Salidar Amrylin are upheld. Some of them were quite unpopular and if there was even a sliver of truth to her reign starting later, the Sitters would use that to undo them.

 

I think it's actually good that for one of the few times the AS aren't trying to sweep this mistake under the rug. In not denying Elaida's reign they are taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again(new laws enacted etc) at the same time, it is quite clear they are not validating her wrongdoings.

 

"Elaida was a madwoman, and you all know it!" Egwene said sternly, standing tall, staring them down. "You knew it these last few months as she worked unwittingly to destroy us. Light, many of you probably knew it when you raised her in the first place!

 

"There have been foolish Amyrlins before, but none have come as close to tearing down the entire Tower! You are a check upon the Amyrlin. You are to keep her from doing things like this! You allowed her to disband an entire Ajah? What were you thinking? How is it that you allowed the Tower to fall so far? And when the Dragon Reborn himself walks the land, no less!

 

"You should have removed Elaida the moment you heard of her disastrous attempt to confine Rand al'Thor. You should have removed her when you saw how her bickering and pettiness was turning Ajahs against one another. And you should certainly have removed her when she refused to do what was needed to bring the Tower together again, whole as one!"

 

 

She says that Elaida was a madwoman, but she is using her laws to be elected by a smaller number of Sitters.

That left eleven Sitters. Not enough to raise an Amyrlin by the old laws of the Tower—but those had been revised with Elaida's

disbanding of the Blue. Fewer Sitters meant fewer women needed to raise an Amyrlin, and now only eleven were required. It

would have to do. At least each and every Sitter currently in the Tower knew of this event; it wasn't in secret, like Elaida's raising.

And Egwene could be reasonably certain no Black Sitters would stand for her.

 

She knows that the Reds are trying to elect new Sitters and try to vote, but she does nothing to wait for them all tell the others to stop bullying them and trying to keep them away from the Hall.

The White nodded, braided hair brushing the sides of her face. "The Reds, you needn't worry about them," she said in her light

Taraboner accent. "Following Elaida's disappearance, they retreated back to their quarters. The Sitters here, they worried that

the Red would choose new Sitters quickly and send them to this proceeding. I believe some . . . curt missives from the Hall of

the Tower were enough to cow them."

So, voted without the Blues, and the Reds are kept away from voting, as the Blues were kept away when Siuan was deposed. Not a very good start.

 

 

 

Yes, this was a different experience entirely from

the one she'd had back in that humble wooden building where she'd been raised by the Salidar Aes Sedai. In many ways, her

performance in Salidar had been but a rehearsal.

performance, not rule.

 

 

 

"Are you certain you want to bear this weight, child?" Saerin asked in a very soft voice. This was not part of the ceremony.

"I bear it already, Saerin." Egwene's reply was almost a whisper. "Elaida cast it aside when she tried to slice it and divide it as

she wished. I took it up and have carried it since. I would bear it to my death. And will."

Saerin nodded. "I think that might be why you deserve it," she said. "I doubt anything in the histories will compare to the days

ahead. I suspect that, in the future, scholars will look back on our days and judge them to be more difficult—more trying of mind,

body and soul—than the Time of Madness or the Breaking itself."

"Then it's a good thing the world has us, isn't it?" Egwene asked.

Saerin hesitated, then nodded. "I suppose it is at that." She raised the stole and set it upon Egwene's shoulders. "You are raised

to the Amyrlin Seat!" she declared, the voices of the other Sitters joining in, "In the glory of the Light, that the White Tower may

endure forever. Egwene al'Vere, the Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon, the Amyrlin Seat

-She's still addressed as 'child', and only after that named Amyrlyn, with a vote following hte laws set down by Elaida.

 

 

Egwene took a deep breath. "And I am not guiltless either. I share some of your shame, for it was during my tenure that these

disasters occurred. I sided with the rebels, allowed myself to be raised by them because it was the only choice. But that choice

still gives me culpability.

"Bear your shame, Sitters, but bear it with determination. Do not let it break you. The time for healing has begun, and there is no

longer any use in pointing fingers. You failed. But you are all that we have. We are all that the world has."

The women began to look up.

"Come," Egwene said, striding through the room, Silviana smoothly falling into step beside her. "Let us greet the rebels."

 

I liked her nice speech, or the 'I took the Stole when Elaida dropped it', but legally, her rule started that day, not back in Salidar, chosen by one Ajah and some fake Sitters sent by the other Ajah heads to speed up the reunification.

 

 

EDIT:

Picking a Blue would have been too divisive for the current state of the Tower. And

besides, with an Amyrlin who was one of the rebels—nobody would soon forget that, no matter what Egwene said or did—it

would go a long way toward healing relations to have a Keeper who had been a loyalist.

Again, the sisters that sided with Elaida are loyalist, even from Egwene's pov and the general pov of the Tower, and the Salidar AS are rebels, and therefore every decision they made was illegal.

 

"Sisters," she said, "daughters. I have been raised properly to the Amyrlin Seat. Both sides of this conflict have chosen me. Both

followed the prescribed methods, and both now accept me as their Amyrlin. It is time to join together again.

I think the anals will mark this day as the start of her rule.

Some of her decisions will be kept(older novices), but others discarded(Nyn's AS status).

 

I just don't understand why they didn't voted with both camps, with all the legal numbers of Sitters required, not the number Elaida chose as template, and some sisters kept away from the Hall against their will(the Reds).

 

I'm trying to think at a real situation that can be seen as a parallel with this vote.

USA. The president is removed and onother guy takes his place. 20 states don't agree with this and leave the country, forming another one(USX) and choosing their own president. After a while the president of USA is kidnapped by aliens, the USX are invading the USA and are at one step away of victory.

Both countries decide to unite again, and they make another vote to chose a president, the one of USX being the favorite.

But only the states that formed USA are allowed to vote, the rest are seen as rebels and their government disbanded, and the state from which the former president of the USA started his political career is forbidden to vote as well, all in the interest of unity. WTF?

Edited by Aiel Blademaster
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Yes, this was a different experience entirely from

the one she'd had back in that humble wooden building where she'd been raised by the Salidar Aes Sedai. In many ways, her

performance in Salidar had been but a rehearsal.

performance, not rule.

 

That is because this quote refers to the ceremony of raising, nothing more.

 

 

So, voted without the Blues, and the Reds are kept away from voting, as the Blues were kept away when Siuan was deposed. Not a very good start.

 

and then goes on to rectify the matter by changing the laws in ToM so nothing like what Elaida did can ever happen again. So if not a very good start, then the best possible ending which is what counts.

 

I liked her nice speech, or the 'I took the Stole when Elaida dropped it', but legally, her rule started that day, not back in Salidar, chosen by one Ajah and some fake Sitters sent by the other Ajah heads to speed up the reunification.

 

If that is the case please explain how all her initiatives from her time as Amrylin in Salidar are upheld. We know how often AS twist the rules to get what they want. She had some very unpopular decisions and Romanda and Lelaine would jump on any excuse to invalidate them if it was possible. No her rule started in Salidar and that is what the secret histories will say of her reign.

 

Edit: I do agree that it makes sense to have everyone join before voting...

Edited by Suttree
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So, voted without the Blues, and the Reds are kept away from voting, as the Blues were kept away when Siuan was deposed. Not a very good start.

 

and then goes on to rectify the matter by changing the laws in ToM so nothing like what Elaida did can ever happen again. So if not a very good start, then the best possible ending which is what counts.

 

I liked her nice speech, or the 'I took the Stole when Elaida dropped it', but legally, her rule started that day, not back in Salidar, chosen by one Ajah and some fake Sitters sent by the other Ajah heads to speed up the reunification.

 

If that is the case please explain how all her initiatives from her time as Amrylin in Salidar are upheld. We know how often AS twist the rules to get what they want. She had some very unpopular decisions and Romanda and Lelaine would jump on any excuse to invalidate them if it was possible. No her rule started in Salidar and that is what the secret histories will say of her reign.

 

Edit: I do agree that it makes sense to have everyone join before voting...

 

 

Why not make it this way before the vote. It would have taken them one day to move all sister inside, chose sitters from the unified Ajahs and vote with the old and legitimate system.

With the new system, her election was ilegal, with fewer Sitters than required normally. If she tried to heal some of the rifts created by Elaida, why not start from step one?

 

All her decisions? I think you are wrong.

The 1000 novices was the logical choice, especially after they just executed one third of their numbers for being BA and took their numbers under 500.

Nyn had to take the test for AS again, although most of the Rebels accepted her position as AS, especially in Ebou Dar and Caemlyn.

The Kin is still in question, she had to trick the AM to make another bargain, etc.

Only some of her decisions still hold, only because they can help the WT.

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All her decisions? I think you are wrong.

The 1000 novices was the logical choice, especially after they just executed one third of their numbers for being BA and took their numbers under 500.

Nyn had to take the test for AS again, although most of the Rebels accepted her position as AS, especially in Ebou Dar and Caemlyn.

The Kin is still in question, she had to trick the AM to make another bargain, etc.

Only some of her decisions still hold, only because they can help the WT.

 

The point is name one decision that has been overturned because she was not a legal Amrylin? There hasn't been nor will there be one. The examples you use(even if they were correct, which they're not) have nothing to do with her legal status or right to make decisions as Amrylin.

 

Also who did she trick for another bargain? Not sure what you are referring to there.

Edited by Suttree
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All her decisions? I think you are wrong.

The 1000 novices was the logical choice, especially after they just executed one third of their numbers for being BA and took their numbers under 500.

Nyn had to take the test for AS again, although most of the Rebels accepted her position as AS, especially in Ebou Dar and Caemlyn.

The Kin is still in question, she had to trick the AM to make another bargain, etc.

Only some of her decisions still hold, only because they can help the WT.

 

The point is name one decision that has been overturned because she was not a legal Amrylin? There hasn't been nor will there be one. The examples you use(even if they were correct, which they're not) have nothing to do with her legal status or right to make decisions as Amrylin.

 

Also who did she trick for another bargain? Not sure what you are referring to there.

 

I was talking about the barrgain Elayne&Nyn, as Salidar AS, made with the Atha'an Miere(the 20 sisters as teachers). It was hard to swallow for the AS, so she had to make another one, much better for the AS.

I used the word 'trick' because jumping from having 20 AS to teach them everything they wanted to losing all the teachers and agreeing to teach AS in stead was a very big step, especially for people that were known for their awesome bargaining prowess. But I digress.

They would have been retarded to try to send all the novices back, especially with the Last Battle at their tower step and their numbers dwindling(and I'm not even considering the losses they'll have against Seachan and in the LB).

Everything else was put to vote again or changed in a way or another(Nyn, the bargain, etc).

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I was talking about the barrgain Elayne&Nyn, as Salidar AS, made with the Atha'an Miere(the 20 sisters as teachers). It was hard to swallow for the AS, so she had to make another one, much better for the AS.

I used the word 'trick' because jumping from having 20 AS to teach them everything they wanted to losing all the teachers and agreeing to teach AS in stead was a very big step, especially for people that were known for their awesome bargaining prowess. But I digress.

They would have been retarded to try to send all the novices back, especially with the Last Battle at their tower step and their numbers dwindling(and I'm not even considering the losses they'll have against Seachan and in the LB).

Everything else was put to vote again or changed in a way or another(Nyn, the bargain, etc).

 

There was no trick and the bargain was changed to address the need for the exchange program moving forward. It benefits all the groups evenly(far more than the loss of weak AS who don't want to teach is the right to items of power, return of sea folk AS and the long term benefits of powerful accepted exchange). Most importantly the original was not made by and has absolutely zero to do with Egwene and her status as Amrylin.

 

As for the second part now you are just flat out making things up. Everything was put to a vote again? :rolleyes: Do you mean the one item where Egwene out of necessity held the vote to change the rules to be the one dealing with Rand? That doesn't invalidate in anyway her previous right to make the first decision, nor does it change any of the other initiatives she made.

 

Again if you were right you would be able to provide textual evidence of a change/cancelling of her decrees because she had no legal status as Amrylin. As there is not even the slightest hint of this going on your point does not hold.

Edited by Suttree
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I was talking about the barrgain Elayne&Nyn, as Salidar AS, made with the Atha'an Miere(the 20 sisters as teachers). It was hard to swallow for the AS, so she had to make another one, much better for the AS.

I used the word 'trick' because jumping from having 20 AS to teach them everything they wanted to losing all the teachers and agreeing to teach AS in stead was a very big step, especially for people that were known for their awesome bargaining prowess. But I digress.

They would have been retarded to try to send all the novices back, especially with the Last Battle at their tower step and their numbers dwindling(and I'm not even considering the losses they'll have against Seachan and in the LB).

Everything else was put to vote again or changed in a way or another(Nyn, the bargain, etc).

 

There was no trick and the bargain was changed to address the need for the exchange program moving forward. It benefits all the groups evenly. Most importantly the original was not made by and has absolutely zero to do with Egwene and her status as Amrylin.

 

As for the second part now you are just flat out making things up. Everything was put to a vote again? :rolleyes: Do you mean the one item where Egwene out of necessity held the vote to change her status as the one dealing with Rand? That doesn't invalidate in anyway her previous right to make the first decision, nor does it change any of the other initiatives she made.

 

Again if you were right you would be able to provide textual evidence of a change made because she had no legal status as Amrylin. As there is not even the slightest hint of this going on your point does not hold.

 

My mistake. Not everything, but most of the things they did in Salidar.

The sisters that deposed Siuan and sided/kept Elayda in the chair even after they all saw what a horrible Amyrlin she was, kept their positions of power, but the good guys, those who saw the mistake the others did, lost all their power. And the idiots that had no backbone and did nothing to stand against her are the same people that are deciding things now, except the three Blue Sitters they have.

 

If she was a legal Amyrlin, then please offer a quote in which they say that Elayda's rule will be removed from the Annals, and Egwene was the real Amyrlin from the moment she was elected in Salidar. And that the later vote was just a symbolic one.

I think I offered enough quotes that proves that they see the sisters that sided with Elaida as loyalist and the ones that saw the mistake the others did in electing a madwoman that nearly destroyed the Tower are the bad guys(rebels), and they are seen as such by the rest of the sisters.

Egwene herself said that only after the second vote she was rightful Amyrlin.

 

I don't want to browse the last book to give you some quotes from there about the things voted/decided in Salidar that had to change back in the WT, because I want to re-read the book first, without perusing parts of it first, but I will give them in a couple of days.

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If she was a legal Amyrlin, then please offer a quote in which they say that Elayda's rule will be removed from the Annals, and Egwene was the real Amyrlin from the moment she was elected in Salidar. And that the later vote was just a symbolic one.

I think I offered enough quotes that proves that they see the sisters that sided with Elaida as loyalist and the ones that saw the mistake the others did in electing a madwoman that nearly destroyed the Tower are the bad guys(rebels), and they are seen as such by the rest of the sisters.

Egwene herself said that only after the second vote she was rightful Amyrlin.

 

I don't want to browse the last book to give you some quotes from there about the things voted/decided in Salidar that had to change back in the WT, because I want to re-read the book first, without perusing parts of it first, but I will give them in a couple of days.

 

I have already done more than enough to prove she was a legal Amrylin both in her own thinking, and in the decrees she made in her time with the Salidar AS.

 

During the symbolic gesture of reconciliation both sides were equally called to account in text(conveniently you skip the side of the WT being chastened). I have already provided quotes showing there was zero validation of, or support for Elaida's(called out as a madwoman) actions during her reign. What they are doing however is taking responsibility for the split by not denying Elaida's reign, which is a huge step in the right direction for AS. Neither group is sided with more than the other or shown to be more right. Again you choose to make things up, Egwene did not say now she was the rightful Armylin and that she had not been before, what she said was

 

TGS

"Sisters," she said, "daughters. I have been raised properly to the Amyrlin Seat. Both sides of this conflict have chosen me. Both followed the prescribed methods, and both now accept me as their Amyrlin. It is time to join together again.

 

Her own thoughts said it was only right to allow the WT AS to stand as well(a formality and symbolic gesture), both sides have now done so, it does nothing to invalidate her previous rule of which the Salidar AS "followed the prescribed methods" and accepted her as Amrylin.

 

& as I said earlier in a diff post...

 

Yes, this was a different experience entirely from

the one she'd had back in that humble wooden building where she'd been raised by the Salidar Aes Sedai. In many ways, her

performance in Salidar had been but a rehearsal.

performance, not rule.

 

That is because this quote refers to the actual ceremony of raising, nothing more.

 

In relation to looking for the quotes, I'll save you some time...they don't exist because no decrees have been cancelled period(one has been changed), let alone due to her not actually being Amrylin. Keep in mind, even where we to accept your examples of the bargain and Nyn's test(which I don't) neither were done because of questions concerning Egwene's Amrylin status and hence have no bearing on the point your are trying to support.

Edited by Suttree
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I think the second vote was to avoid the implication that she was conquering the Tower. They accepted her as Amyrlin, not a unified Hall composed of 'rebels' as well as 'loyalists'. The SAS already accepted her, so they're not needed. And Egwene had every Sitter present in TV to vote for her - the Law can't ask for more (since the Hall in TV included only 18 members, the lack of 3 Red Sitters is still lawful, as long as they couldn't be reached).

 

Oh, and the fact that the SAS are referred to as 'rebels' doesn't mean that their legitimacy is invalidated. They left the Tower, hence they were rebels, even if the rebellion was justified.

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The scene quoted in the opening post; to me it shows that Egwene wants to follow the law.

 

As for accepting a second vote, to me she does not lose her prior work.

She confronted Elaida on the mistakes Elaida made, some recent time before being raised; and like others pointed out, she confronted the Hall for letting Elaida make those mistakes.

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I thought it was pretty clear Siuan, Gareth and Gawyn were responsible for risking undoing all of Egwene's work, and as it happens, the reason she was elected Amyrlin of the White Tower side was precisely because of her actions as a 'prisoner'.

 

According to the decree of Elaida, there was no Blue Ajah, so they could not stand in the White Tower ceremony. Not to mention that all the Salidar AS had declared war against Elaida; thus until a new Amyrlin is chosen, they were in effect an enemy of the Tower. The laws Elaida used to be raised were not created by her, merely abused by her. The lack of Reds was nothing to do with Egwene's subterfuge, and everything to do with avoiding an assault that was poised to go ahead that afternoon!

 

The quote about picking up the stole means that her reign began when Elaida was blackmailed by Alviarin into dividing the Ajahs... which was before the Salidar AS had even begun their march into Murandy, let alone the seige.

 

There are pretty solid reasons for things falling the way they do in WoT, the breadth of the story just makes it difficult to find them all sometimes (Especially later, when there are so many plots chapters jump between them all the time)

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