The Center of All

[Eht Slat Meit]

Hmm if you look at this and then at Mat being called "the center of all" well maybe it's Mat who "turns the Wheel of Time". Although I'd be a bit annoyed if that was the case...

 

The point is no man turns the Wheel, the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. All men are subject to it and none control it.

 

The Pattern, on the other hand, is highly subject to the influence of men in general, and ta'veren in specific.

 

Really depends on your definition of "all".

[Duskfire]

Yeah I dont quite understand it myself. The Finns seem to be implying that Mat is important, which he obviously is, but to be the centre of it all shows extreme importance. Perhaps his decisions will have more long term consequences then others; i.e the cannon scenerio which will no doubt lead onto more inventions in the future? Not sure.

[Jon Paul]

The Pattern, on the other hand, is highly subject to the influence of men in general, and ta'veren in specific.

 

No it isn't. The Pattern dictates what's what. Ta'veren do not control what they are. In fact they are what they are because the Wheel wills. They exist because the Wheel creates them as self-corrective mechanisms.

[Finnssss22]

Mo has pivotal information that's key for Rand to prevail. Whether Mat saves her, makes him the center of it all.

 

...and before someone says, hey you're just guessing....

 

aCoS chpt 35

 

Min's internal conversation about a vision she never relayed to Rand

What good to tell him he would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone

[Eht Slat Meit]

The Pattern, on the other hand, is highly subject to the influence of men in general, and ta'veren in specific.

 

No it isn't. The Pattern dictates what's what. Ta'veren do not control what they are. In fact they are what they are because the Wheel wills. They exist because the Wheel creates them as self-corrective mechanisms.

 

You're partially right, but what you're saying isn't the whole story. The -Wheel- dictates what's what, and spins out the Pattern. Note that the Wheel and Pattern are two distinctly different concepts. (sourcing Loial's lecture to Rand in EoTW as well as the comment about self-corrective mechanisms from Jordan). The Pattern is made up of the individual threads of mens' lives, whereas the Wheel constitutes all existence. Men may to a greater degree or lesser degree, depending on whether they are ta'veren or not, shape the Pattern. If they didn't have that ability to shape the Pattern, ta'veren would be completely useless as corrective mechanisms, wouldn't they?

 

Basically, as is indicated throughout the series, the ta'veren aren't completely without free will, but such is their nature that the Wheel gives them what they need (indicating Mat most recently here) to help itself.

[Jon Paul]

You're partially right, but what you're saying isn't the whole story. The -Wheel- dictates what's what, and spins out the Pattern. Note that the Wheel and Pattern are two distinctly different concepts. (sourcing Loial's lecture to Rand in EoTW as well as the comment about self-corrective mechanisms from Jordan). The Pattern is made up of the individual threads of mens' lives, whereas the Wheel constitutes all existence.

 

The Wheel and the Pattern are distinct yes.. in that the Pattern is subject to the Wheel that weaves it. But your statement, highlighted for ease, is basically saying that the Wheel and the Pattern are not distinct. The Patter by necessity contains more than on thread, it is several threads, in fact every thread.. all existence you could say. So what you're saying is the Pattern is the Wheel ?

 

Men may to a greater degree or lesser degree, depending on whether they are ta'veren or not, shape the Pattern. If they didn't have that ability to shape the Pattern, ta'veren would be completely useless as corrective mechanisms, wouldn't they?

 

But they don't. The Wheel shapes the Pattern. In fact, going back to Loial, he says that if a man wanted to move from one farm to another down the way, there wouldn't really be an issue.. if a man wanted to move from his rocking chair to a throne.. that's another matter because that would disrupt the Pattern's pattern. Unless the Wheel dictates that you mvoe from your farm to a king's hunting forest you're staying on that farm. This doesn't remove free will really. But saying that, it's more a case of one assenting and trying to make the best of it and finding a small peace or dissenting, doing it anyway and having a shit time, that constitutes free will in the Wheel of Time.

 

Anyway I digress. Anyway, it is the ta'veren its self that shapes the Pattern, a product of the Wheel, and not the man. The man is more just a vessel as it were. The Pattern is going to be shaped whether you like it or not. If something has to happen, it will, and nothing you can do will change it, because you don't dictate the weave of the Pattern, the Wheel does.

[Suttree]

Just a couple quotes to help the debate along..

 

Loial

“The Wheel of Time weaves the Pattern of the Ages, and the threads it uses are lives. It is not fixed, the Pattern, not always. If a man tries to change the direction of his life and the Pattern has room for it, the Wheel just weaves on and takes it in. There is always room for small changes, but sometimes the Pattern simply won't accept a big change, no matter how hard you try....And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes. The Web - ta'maral'ailen, it's called - can last for weeks, or for years. It can take in a town, or even the whole Pattern.”

 

BWB

In such a world change is simply a predetermined part of the mechanism. Only a few individuals, special souls known as ta'veren, can cause the fabric of the pattern to bend around them, changing the weave. These ta'veren are spun out as key threads around which all surrounding life-threads, perhaps in some cases all life-threads, weave to create change. These key threads often produce major variations in the Pattern of an Age. Such major changes are called, in the old tongue, ta'-maral'alien, or the "Web of Destiny."

 

Even the ta'veren and the Web of Destiny woven around them are bound by the Wheel and the Great Pattern; it is believed that the Wheel spins out ta'veren whenever the weave begins to drift away from the Pattern. The changes around them, while often drastic and unsettling for those who must live in the Age, are thought to be part of the Wheel's own correcting mechanism. The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.

 

The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.

[Goramier]

Mat is chance, Perrin is order and Rand is chaos.

 

I think its to do with him twisted the pattern around him and they can feel it.

 

This and the fact that Matt represents Odin. Odin was the center of it all. I think it has several meanings but these are the most important to that character.

[Random Man]

Mat is chance, Perrin is order and Rand is chaos.

 

I think its to do with him twisted the pattern around him and they can feel it.

 

This and the fact that Matt represents Odin. Odin was the center of it all. I think it has several meanings but these are the most important to that character.

Be that as it may (i.e. Mat=Odin) I think some are reading a bit too much into their words. The Finns had an opportunity to force Mat to make a choice involving self-sacrifice, on which choice depended the fate of the world. Of course, they told him about it so they had a role themselves in setting this choice up. When he made the choice to give up his eye he did become the center of a particular branching of the Pattern that would set a new course, i.e., Moiraine returning to participate in the Last Battle.

 

EDIT: Yay, 500 posts. I should pop a cork of bubbly or something.

[FarShainMael]

EDIT: Yay, 500 posts. I should pop a cork of bubbly or something.

 

*sniff* *smooths skirts* Phaw, child..

 

[Random Man]

EDIT: Yay, 500 posts. I should pop a cork of bubbly or something.

 

*sniff* *smooths skirts* Phaw, child..

 

I don't really get out much.

[FarShainMael]

EDIT: Yay, 500 posts. I should pop a cork of bubbly or something.

 

*sniff* *smooths skirts* Phaw, child..

 

I don't really get out much.

 

You think you've got problems!!

[Dakota]

I interpreted this as being due to the fact that Mat is one of the three most powerful ta'veren who've ever lived, and that the key to the Last Battle will involve him, Perrin, and Rand all coming together to do something important. Being one of the trifecta that saves the world certainly would put him right at the center of it all.

[Orderofolde]

Sorta not related to this thread, but two things:

 

I watched an X-files episode from Season 7 the other day, and the "freak of the week" was this dude who has super good luck, and he is missing an eye. Thought it was cool.

 

The other, more related thing:

 

I've been thinking about Mat's journey through the world of the Ael/Eelfinn and it occurs to me that IF Mat's luck is actually given by the DO (the DO's own luck) and IF it isn't chance, but "help from the DO" that gives Mat his luck power, then could it be possible that the DO orchestrated Mat's involvement in stopping the Snakes and Foxes and somehow "breaking" their world? Could this be a major win for the DO in the long run?

 

In other words, my theory is that the Snakes and Foxes are enemies of the DO, and their link to Randland is directly in opposition to the DO's plans to destroy creation. I know it's a stretch, but, if that's the case, didn't Mat somehow "break" their world? How else could Olver have finally won the game? I think it has to do with something Mat did when he broke the rules and escaped the Tower. Could this be the DO's doing?

This is interesting. After Mat is healed in the tower of the taint of the Shadar Logoth dagger, Lanfear visits him and offers him gold and power, and laughs and states that one will not be a problem for him, either referring to his blowing the horn for the power/glory thing, or the alluded to gift of gold. Mat simply can't lose his first night, and the way he reacts to the man saying "Dark One's Luck" has him in a fever. This is clear afterwards when he flips himself and the assassin off the bridge then simply wanders into the Inn to hide and finds Thom. Something is going on, and the theft of those dice Ter'Angreal and what they do just keeps popping up into many of our heads. If Lanfear in her running around as the novice girl he and Rand met in coming to Caemlyn somehow used them to put a whammy on him to get his greed to flowing with gold falling into his lap and good fortune dicing, she might be coming back to collect. She obviously knew where his room was and put wards up in order for them to have a conversation so she would know when someone was coming. She doesn't know where he is automatically, she had to have found it out prior to him waking.

 

With Mat, there's a lot going on. Before he ever went to Finn land he knew the old tongue, remembered riding with the Heart Guard of Manetheran, and the snakes and foxes eventually stuffed his head with memories of battles. I can't recall, but I don't believe he's ever been on two sides. Maybe it's the memories of his soul from the lives he led, spun out again and again as a lord, a peasant, and so on, but always a fighter. It will be neat to see how it wraps up.