Birgitte's "Precepts"

[jemron]

I've been wondering about this for a long time, and as far as I can tell, this really isn't discussed by fans much. When Perrin meets Birgitte in the "Wolf Dream" (T'A'R) during the Shadow Rising, she reveals to him a lot about the ToG and the World of Dreams and Slayer, but she also mentions more then once that she is "bound by precepts" and that they are "stronger than law". IdealSeek gives me these quotes when I type in the word "precepts"

 

The Shadow Rising

Chapter 52

According to the precepts

It violates the precepts

precepts which have held me for so many turns of the Wheel that in my oldest

Speaking to you violates precepts as strong as law

The precepts exist for a reason

Lord of Chaos

Chapter 6

had her precepts been applied to him

Knife of Dreams

PROLOGUE

But the Precepts say

 

It seems to me that this is somehow related to the both the Unseen Eyes in T'A'R and/or some sort of entity that runs T'A'R that is separate from the Dark One and the Creator entirely. To have rules and requirements, there must be someone or something that is setting and enforcing said rules or precepts. Verin said there are three constants: The Dark One, the Creator, and The World of Dreams or the "Unseen World."

 

So, who determines these precepts? Will we learn more about them? Why doesn't Birgitte reveal more about this as she is no longer bound by them? What "reason" do they exist for? Is this related to the Heros and everyone in the WoT world and where they go between rebirths? Like a "spirit world" of some sort? How will this play into the last book?

[jemron]

Also, it should be noted that I think this all relates to why/how Rand showed up in T'A'R during VoG. Perrin and the wolves saw him there. It's almost as if Rand is directly linked to T'A'R like the other Heros of the Horn without the need to Travel directly there. How is that possible?

 

I don't have ToM in front of me, but when Hopper is teaching Perrin about the Wolf Dream, he mentions some pretty interesting things to Perrin that make me think the World of Dreams literally has a mind of it's own, and that it is the place where ALL dead people go between rebirth and not just the heroes.

[mb]

all precepts I imagine lasted since the first Hero if not sooner. The Pattern probably determined them.

 

As far as I recall, the books revealed just 1 precept: speaking to those that know they are in Telaranrhiod.

 

I guess the precepts apply to just Telaranrhiod.

Possible reasons for the precepts::

-keep Heroes safe until Horn calls them or Wheel spins them

-help them prepare for either event

[jemron]

all precepts I imagine lasted since the first Hero if not sooner. The Pattern probably determined them.

 

As far as I recall, the books revealed just 1 precept: speaking to those that know they are in Telaranrhiod.

 

I guess the precepts apply to just Telaranrhiod.

Possible reasons for the precepts::

-keep Heroes safe until Horn calls them or Wheel spins them

-help them prepare for either event

 

All good insights, but this still doesn't sufficiently answer for me who determines those rules and who enforces them. I guess I have a hard time thinking the Pattern did it. I want to assign some unknown entity to T'A'R that isn't the Pattern.

 

On the other hand, could it be that Birgitte received the punishment she did because she broke the rules?

[mandersen]

I've wondered about his as well, and the only thing i came up with is maybe the heroes themselves came up with the precepts, based on experiencing the consequences. maybe over numerous turnings of the wheel they've found out that talking to people who know they're there always turns out bad. I've always assumed they were the unseen eyes too. it's funny but i think the heroes and perrin (with hopper's help) are the only ones who know you can be invisible if you want. even the forsaken hid and sneak, and they're supposed to know TAR better than anyone.

[jemron]

I've wondered about his as well, and the only thing i came up with is maybe the heroes themselves came up with the precepts, based on experiencing the consequences. maybe over numerous turnings of the wheel they've found out that talking to people who know they're there always turns out bad. I've always assumed they were the unseen eyes too. it's funny but i think the heroes and perrin (with hopper's help) are the only ones who know you can be invisible if you want. even the forsaken hid and sneak, and they're supposed to know TAR better than anyone.

 

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of that. The precepts are probably rules made by the Heros themselves. Duh! I guess I was looking for a possible 3rd "entity" that is similar to the DO and Creator, but in the middle. I suppose that "entity" is the Pattern itself though.

 

Will the precepts be important for the last book do ya'll think?

[Ala Rubra]

Will the precepts be important for the last book do ya'll think?

 

It's quite possible. A common theory is that Rand will die, and someone (probably Nynaeve), will go into Tel'aran'hoid to rip him out a la Moghedien. For that to happen, Rand will have to show himself and speak to Nynaeve (or whoever). If that, or something like it, happens, I think it will be likely that the other Heroes will either argue against him doing so or give their blessing in this particular instance.

 

Of course, it's also possible that Nynaeve will use need to find him, thus avoiding the whole issue of Rand choosing to break the precepts; or perhaps the entire issue will just be ignored.

[MyKillK]

Who could possibly have the Power to create binding laws for TAR if not the Creator?

 

Going by the dictionary definition of precept, "A general rule intended to regulate behavior or thought," I'd agree that the precepts are just an extremely old agreement between the inhabitants of TAR.

[Leyrann]

Also, it should be noted that I think this all relates to why/how Rand showed up in T'A'R during VoG. Perrin and the wolves saw him there. It's almost as if Rand is directly linked to T'A'R like the other Heros of the Horn without the need to Travel directly there. How is that possible?

 

I don't have ToM in front of me, but when Hopper is teaching Perrin about the Wolf Dream, he mentions some pretty interesting things to Perrin that make me think the World of Dreams literally has a mind of it's own, and that it is the place where ALL dead people go between rebirth and not just the heroes.

 

I don't think that everyone goes to TAR. It would just get too crowded with the billions of people from the AoL, because there are not more than 100 million people now (and I think far less).

 

all precepts I imagine lasted since the first Hero if not sooner. The Pattern probably determined them.

 

As far as I recall, the books revealed just 1 precept: speaking to those that know they are in Telaranrhiod.

 

I guess the precepts apply to just Telaranrhiod.

Possible reasons for the precepts::

-keep Heroes safe until Horn calls them or Wheel spins them

-help them prepare for either event

 

All good insights, but this still doesn't sufficiently answer for me who determines those rules and who enforces them. I guess I have a hard time thinking the Pattern did it. I want to assign some unknown entity to T'A'R that isn't the Pattern.

 

On the other hand, could it be that Birgitte received the punishment she did because she broke the rules?

 

Punishment? Where?

[mb]

Punishment? Where?

I guess the poster is reffering to Fires of Heaven Chapter 34; not sure though.

 

On the other hand, could it be that Birgitte received the punishment she did because she broke the rules?

That possibly could be Wheel's/Pattern's reason for allowing it.

Moghedien's reason might be something different; not sure on exactly what.

[jemron]

Punishment? Where?

I guess the poster is reffering to Fires of Heaven Chapter 34; not sure though.

 

On the other hand, could it be that Birgitte received the punishment she did because she broke the rules?

That possibly could be Wheel's/Pattern's reason for allowing it.

Moghedien's reason might be something different; not sure on exactly what.

I was referring to what Moghedien did to her. What I meant by it was, all our actions have consequences. Some see those consequences as a self-inflicted punishment that naturally occurs from breaking rules or laws or commandments. Perhaps, because Birgitte broke the precepts, the Pattern or T'A'R or the Creator or something allowed her to receive the consequence that came from it and was inflicted by Moggy, and allowed her to no longer be linked to the Horn (or, so we think). I think, if she actually lost her link to the Horn, that she will do something in aMoL that will earn her Hero status again.

 

Anyway, punishment probably wasn't the best word, but she certainly wasn't protected when Moggy showed up.

[jemron]

Who could possibly have the Power to create binding laws for TAR if not the Creator?

 

Going by the dictionary definition of precept, "A general rule intended to regulate behavior or thought," I'd agree that the precepts are just an extremely old agreement between the inhabitants of TAR.

 

My reasons for wondering if there is another entity besides the Creator or DO is based on what Verin tells Egwene; that there are 3 not 2 "constants" in the universe: DO, Creator, and TAR. However, some have said that it is probably either the Pattern itself (which I'm not sure I agree with, but it is definitely plausible) or that the precepts were just agreed upon by the Heros themselves.

 

I believe that one thing RJ tried hard to do was make us think things are a certain way based on what the characters in the current Age believe; but that they are actually wrong. For example, they all believe strongly that "The DO and the Forsaken were sealed at the moment of creation by the Creator." This is partially true, but partially false. The Forsaken were only sealed there at the end of the War of Power in the AoL. The DO may have been sealed from the moment of Creation, but not the Forsaken. Similarly, I believe that the Randlander's belief that the Creator "doesn't get involved" is poppycock. They think that, but in reality, I think he's highly involved, and they're misinformed as Legend becomes Myth, and even Myth is "Long forgotten" by the time a new Age comes around.

 

So, with that thought in mind, could there be some big thing that RJ/BWS will introduce in the final book that none of us saw coming because we were only given half-truths about how the universe of the WoT actually works?

[Glexn]

Also, it should be noted that I think this all relates to why/how Rand showed up in T'A'R during VoG. Perrin and the wolves saw him there. It's almost as if Rand is directly linked to T'A'R like the other Heros of the Horn without the need to Travel directly there. How is that possible?

 

I don't have ToM in front of me, but when Hopper is teaching Perrin about the Wolf Dream, he mentions some pretty interesting things to Perrin that make me think the World of Dreams literally has a mind of it's own, and that it is the place where ALL dead people go between rebirth and not just the heroes.

 

TAR in entwined with and reflects every world in the multiverse, but Rand World most strongly. There are some things that remain constant between all the planes of existence, including TAR. Particularly, the Dark One being imprisoned. I think it's reasonable that since the Dragon is a pretty important part of the multiverse, and VoG is the second most important event next to Tarmon Gai'don, it would make sense for it to be reflected in TAR. I don't think Rand actually went there, though.

[simpleminded]

Just a thought on the need for Birgitte's/Hero's use of the precept. Just like for the wolves, dieing in TAR is forever. You would no longer be tied to the pattern, you would be removed from it permanently never to be spun out again.

[jemron]

Just a thought on the need for Birgitte's/Hero's use of the precept. Just like for the wolves, dieing in TAR is forever. You would no longer be tied to the pattern, you would be removed from it permanently never to be spun out again.

So, they created the rules themselves as a way to protect themselves and stay linked to the Horn? Interesting.