Elan Morin Tedronai or Mierin Eronaile?

[Guest PiotrekS]

While the arguments for Lanfear and Moridin reverting to the Light are fair, I've just been thinking for a long time that it will be Fain who achieves the 180.

 

Another theory I have is that Rand will turn dark again and subsequently save the world at the last minute because he has a memory of light, hence the book title.

 

Rand getting dark again would be repetitive. His personal "memory of light" has aready happened in VoG. I wonder though if "A Memory of Light" has anything to do with one of the Forsaken going back to Light side... I would definitely like it.

 

I don't see Fain turning back. Last remnants of Fain the human being were gone in TGH. Now he is probably the most evil, crazy and full of sheer hatred character in the series.

[Lisa Campbell]

While the arguments for Lanfear and Moridin reverting to the Light are fair, I've just been thinking for a long time that it will be Fain who achieves the 180.

 

Another theory I have is that Rand will turn dark again and subsequently save the world at the last minute because he has a memory of light, hence the book title.

 

Rand getting dark again would be repetitive. His personal "memory of light" has aready happened in VoG. I wonder though if "A Memory of Light" has anything to do with one of the Forsaken going back to Light side... I would definitely like it.

 

I don't see Fain turning back. Last remnants of Fain the human being were gone in TGH. Now he is probably the most evil, crazy and full of sheer hatred character in the series.

 

Ya I was just thinking of putting an alternative out there with Fain but I disagree with you about the repetativeness about Rand. I'm thinking about the game of Sh'ara and that the Fisher changes sides many times within the game.

[SylvanFox]

I think Moridin is the most likely out of all the "bad guys" to redeem himself. His reasons for going over to the Shadow in the first place were very unique. If he could be convinced that it's logical to turn and bite the hand that feeds at the last moment, he would do it. Plus, according to Graendal he didn't have an easy time killing for the shadow at first. He had to get used to it.

 

It has just occurred to me that if Moridin had a "memory of light" moment like Rand's moment in VoG, that would be a pretty distant memory indeed, considering it's been 3,000 years since he went over to the shadow.

[Suttree]

I like to think that Lanfear wasn't all evil in the past. After all, she was in a relationship with LTT for some time and since he was able to resist the Shadow, I would say he was a person with a strong moral compass. I don't think he saw in her only her beauty. She definitely had weaknesses, especially thirst for power, which later , coupled with rejection by LTT, made her turn to the dark side and prompted her to degenerate more and more.

 

 

Probably not all evil no, but she was open to moving that direction. We know she wasn't world famous or well know and never earned the third name so their were likely huge jealousy issues towards her betters.

 

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time, and that Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself.

 

I think it's important to note that it was over 50 years later that she turned to the Shadow. So they were involved for a "short" time, and a very large amount of time passed before she turned. This would seem to indicate rejection was not a primary factor.

 

Also her intentions with the bore were not all that noble.

 

JordanCon 25 April 2010 - Terez reporting

Ishara: Did Mierin drill the Bore out of curiosity, or out of some malevolent desire?

Maria: Mierin was kind of greedy. I don’t think it was a malevolent intent, but it wasn’t all pure and nice.

 

Another telling quote is:

 

Letter to Carolyn Fusinato from RJ - 1 February 1994

Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

 

They dated for a short time, Rand never loved her(moral compass raised red flags?) and although she may not have been evil, there were serious character flaws that indeed made her "ripe for the plucking".

[Hopefire]

I recognize that Lanfear is not a good person. Not by any stretch of the imagination. She's ambitious, reckless, power-hungry and amoral, to say the least. Also, severe anger management issues. However, being a bad person doesn't mean that she's irredeemable. I believe that the Memory of Light is hers, from when she and Lews Therin were young and in love and learning about the One Power.

 

I also think that she's bait. Moridin told Graendal that a certain role had been given to another. He didn't say that she took that role willingly. I think that everything that she told Rand in the dream was true. And, as Admiral Ackbar would say, It's a Trap!

 

 

While I expect that Lanfear will be the only redeemed Forsaken, I've said before and I'll say again: I hope that Moghedien is the only Forsaken to survive the whole thing. And I hope that she lives a long, fulfilling and productive life.

[FarShainMael]

I think Moridin is the most likely out of all the "bad guys" to redeem himself. His reasons for going over to the Shadow in the first place were very unique. If he could be convinced that it's logical to turn and bite the hand that feeds at the last moment, he would do it. Plus, according to Graendal he didn't have an easy time killing for the shadow at first. He had to get used to it.

 

It has just occurred to me that if Moridin had a "memory of light" moment like Rand's moment in VoG, that would be a pretty distant memory indeed, considering it's been 3,000 years since he went over to the shadow.

 

I'm waiting to see if Moridin had his own 'memory of light' at the moment of Rand's epiphany. Recall that Rand remembered ALL his past lives then (though he may have forgotten/suppressed all but the most recent).. "He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope'. With Moridin linked to him at that moment, what might he have remembered?

[OptimusPrime]

I think Moridin is the most likely out of all the "bad guys" to redeem himself. His reasons for going over to the Shadow in the first place were very unique. If he could be convinced that it's logical to turn and bite the hand that feeds at the last moment, he would do it. Plus, according to Graendal he didn't have an easy time killing for the shadow at first. He had to get used to it.

 

It has just occurred to me that if Moridin had a "memory of light" moment like Rand's moment in VoG, that would be a pretty distant memory indeed, considering it's been 3,000 years since he went over to the shadow.

 

I'm waiting to see if Moridin had his own 'memory of light' at the moment of Rand's epiphany. Recall that Rand remembered ALL his past lives then (though he may have forgotten/suppressed all but the most recent).. "He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope'. With Moridin linked to him at that moment, what might he have remembered?

 

I wonder about that too. I hope it turns out to be the other way round though, in TGS Moridin showed signs of tiredness like he was having doubts... how cool would it be if he had his own epiphany in VoG but a memory of DARKNESS!

 

Not quite on subject, but if Moridin had himself 13x13ed to combat such a change of heart, would that possibly affect Rand, through the link? Im convinced Rands new taint immunity is because he is becoming even more connected to Moridin, who was already protected from the taints effect.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I recognize that Lanfear is not a good person. Not by any stretch of the imagination. She's ambitious, reckless, power-hungry and amoral, to say the least. Also, severe anger management issues. However, being a bad person doesn't mean that she's irredeemable. I believe that the Memory of Light is hers, from when she and Lews Therin were young and in love and learning about the One Power.

 

I also think that she's bait. Moridin told Graendal that a certain role had been given to another. He didn't say that she took that role willingly. I think that everything that she told Rand in the dream was true. And, as Admiral Ackbar would say, It's a Trap!

 

 

While I expect that Lanfear will be the only redeemed Forsaken, I've said before and I'll say again: I hope that Moghedien is the only Forsaken to survive the whole thing. And I hope that she lives a long, fulfilling and productive life.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you've said, but for the productive life for Moghedien - she was an investment counsel, so I would say very fulfilling, not overly productive

 

I think Moridin is the most likely out of all the "bad guys" to redeem himself. His reasons for going over to the Shadow in the first place were very unique. If he could be convinced that it's logical to turn and bite the hand that feeds at the last moment, he would do it. Plus, according to Graendal he didn't have an easy time killing for the shadow at first. He had to get used to it.

 

It has just occurred to me that if Moridin had a "memory of light" moment like Rand's moment in VoG, that would be a pretty distant memory indeed, considering it's been 3,000 years since he went over to the shadow.

 

I'm waiting to see if Moridin had his own 'memory of light' at the moment of Rand's epiphany. Recall that Rand remembered ALL his past lives then (though he may have forgotten/suppressed all but the most recent).. "He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope'. With Moridin linked to him at that moment, what might he have remembered?

 

I've wondered about it as well, but we have seen Moridin after VoG and he seemed as dark as could be, so it does not seem he was so strongly affected. Which is a shame in my eyes.

[FarShainMael]

I don't think we have seen him after VoG. The last we've seen of him so far is ToM5, where he gives Graendal a Dreamspike, after she escapes Rand's destruction of Natrin's Barrow, but before Perrin has his TAR-encounter with Rand on Dragonmount. (The timelines between the books are a bit tangled but that's how I read it.)

[Guest PiotrekS]

While the arguments for Lanfear and Moridin reverting to the Light are fair, I've just been thinking for a long time that it will be Fain who achieves the 180.

 

Another theory I have is that Rand will turn dark again and subsequently save the world at the last minute because he has a memory of light, hence the book title.

 

Rand getting dark again would be repetitive. His personal "memory of light" has aready happened in VoG. I wonder though if "A Memory of Light" has anything to do with one of the Forsaken going back to Light side... I would definitely like it.

 

I don't see Fain turning back. Last remnants of Fain the human being were gone in TGH. Now he is probably the most evil, crazy and full of sheer hatred character in the series.

 

Ya I was just thinking of putting an alternative out there with Fain but I disagree with you about the repetativeness about Rand. I'm thinking about the game of Sh'ara and that the Fisher changes sides many times within the game.

 

It would work well with the metaphor of Sh'ara game, but poorly from literary perspective - in my opinion. The Shadow's ploy to capture the Fisher has, IMHO, already happened when Semirhage was set up as a bait and Rand was given access to True Power. This attempt was defeated in VoG and now we're probably waiting for the game to "degenerate to bloody melee", as Moridin said. Rand also thinks that the time for turning him is past and the confrontation is assured.

 

I like to think that Lanfear wasn't all evil in the past. After all, she was in a relationship with LTT for some time and since he was able to resist the Shadow, I would say he was a person with a strong moral compass. I don't think he saw in her only her beauty. She definitely had weaknesses, especially thirst for power, which later , coupled with rejection by LTT, made her turn to the dark side and prompted her to degenerate more and more.

 

 

Probably not all evil no, but she was open to moving that direction. We know she wasn't world famous or well know and never earned the third name so their were likely huge jealousy issues towards her betters.

 

It is certain that Lews Therin and Mierin were involved with one another for a short time, and that Lews Therin broke off the relationship some years before the drilling of the Bore, partly because she loved her association with the great Lews Therin more than she loved the man, and partly because she saw him as a path to power for herself.

 

I think it's important to note that it was over 50 years later that she turned to the Shadow. So they were involved for a "short" time, and a very large amount of time passed before she turned. This would seem to indicate rejection was not a primary factor.

 

Also her intentions with the bore were not all that noble.

 

JordanCon 25 April 2010 - Terez reporting

Ishara: Did Mierin drill the Bore out of curiosity, or out of some malevolent desire?

Maria: Mierin was kind of greedy. I don’t think it was a malevolent intent, but it wasn’t all pure and nice.

 

Another telling quote is:

 

Letter to Carolyn Fusinato from RJ - 1 February 1994

Lanfear holding back and doing good for Rand's sake? Ha! She was psychically fixed on possessing a man who never loved her. Even with that, her desire for Rand was as much a desire for power as for him. To be the one to deliver the Dragon Reborn to the service of the Shadow; that would set her above the other Forsaken. And learning that the access ter'angreal for the two huge sa'angreal were still in existence....Sure, she wanted his love--not least because it had been denied her; Lanfear was a woman who claimed a right to anything she wanted--wanted his devotion, but even more than his body, Lanfear wanted power, the power possibly to replace the Dark One, even to replace the Creator. For Rand's sake? Not a chance.

 

They dated for a short time, Rand never loved her(moral compass raised red flags?) and although she may not have been evil, there were serious character flaws that indeed made her "ripe for the plucking".

 

I absolutely agree. I'm not saying she's pure and shiny, only...I don't really know, maybe despite her wickedness I have a soft spot for her and would like to see Lanfear in better light before the end.

 

I don't think we have seen him after VoG. The last we've seen of him so far is ToM5, where he gives Graendal a Dreamspike, after she escapes Rand's destruction of Natrin's Barrow, but before Perrin has his TAR-encounter with Rand on Dragonmount. (The timelines between the books are a bit tangled but that's how I read it.)

 

Thanks for setting me straight on this one! I have to look back to ToM but I think you're right. Which is good - it opens up new possibilities for Moridin character development. I'm hoping for some really powerful VoG aftermath for Moridin!

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I dont care what happens to Lanfear

+1

 

Well, I care! And I hope she gets a good role in AMoL because I've been waiting for it for way too many years now.

 

On topic, I find it really baffling that anyone would consider Moridin eligible for coming back to the Light. His crimes are unspeakable and his mindset evil absolute. Then again, my viewpoint that Mierin was never really evil is just as baffling to many, so I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

 

I don't actually know if she'll get the kind of "redemption" that some people are talking about. She may just end up being one of the ultimate baddies, or, worse, a tool for the do-gooders in their Last Battle. But if she is going to have a coming-to-the-Light, all the pieces for it are in place and it won't be a surprise.

[Suttree]

On topic, I find it really baffling that anyone would consider Moridin eligible for coming back to the Light. His crimes are unspeakable and his mindset evil absolute.

 

I know we don't see eye to eye on this but you have me genuinely curious. How are Lanfear's crimes any less unspeakable?

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

I know we don't see eye to eye on this but you have me genuinely curious. How are Lanfear's crimes any less unspeakable?

I'm definitely not eager to get back into these Lanfear arguments, but I'll honor your curiosity.

 

First, Mierin simply did not commit as many crimes as Ishamael did. She joined the Shadow later than he did, focused a lot of her energy on getting Lews Therin rather than winning the War of Power, and was locked up for three thousand years during which time he was occasionally on the loose.

 

Second, Ishamael was firmly and knowledgeably committed to embracing the Shadow on philosophical grounds. Mierin used the Shadow as a sponsor to achieve what she had failed to achieve otherwise. It's like the difference between shooting people for pleasure and shooting them because you think you have a justifiable reason. The latter may sometimes be defensible, but the former never is. With Mierin, it's a lot more ambiguous than it is with Ishy that her misdeeds were the result of malevolence.

 

Third, her circumstances are more tragic, and in the context of those circumstances her subsequent actions are more understandable. Lews Therin's rejection of her, and the drilling of the Bore, ruined her life. Ishamael's life, other than his nihilistic worldview, was in great shape until the moment of the Bore's creation, very soon after which he went over to the Shadow.

 

Fourth, and most controversially, I don't think that Mierin's original ambition for power was a bad thing. Ishamael's "Let's destroy existence!" passion and Mierin's "Let's rule the universe!" passion, to me, are in very different standing from one another. It seems she was corrupted after she went over to the Shadow, at least somewhat, and if the BWB is even remotely right about her then her crimes were very serious, and yet her ultimate aims were very different than Ishy's, and I think that makes a difference in evaluating the "speakableness" of her crimes. Case in point: Lews Therin's plan to seal the Bore involved sending an expeditionary force to its death. If a Forsaken had done something like that, we'd say that this proves that they had no regard for human life. But if Lews Therin did it, he must have had a good reason, yes? And he did! I think Mierin, too, had nobler reasons for her crimes than Ishamael did.

 

Fifth, during her present incarnation in WoT Mierin has helped Rand, and thus the Light, as much as anybody else but Min, Light or Shadow. If you are willing to momentarily entertain my earlier suggestion that her motives are not as bad as Ishy's, then we are left mainly with the objective fallout of her behaviors to judge her wickedness, and her actions so far in WoT have done a lot of good. That counts for something.

 

Such is my answer to your question. I've had my fill of argument about this topic for the year, so pick it all apart as you please but don't mind me if I don't wade into it any deeper than this. I only replied to this topic because, unlike some, I am really looking forward to finding out what happens to her.

[MarkDiLillo]

I've always looked at Mierin in a similar way. If we look at her confirmed actions in the story and how they helped/hurt the Light/Shadow this is what we come up with...

 

- She saved Rand's life at Falme by healing him after his fight with Ishamael.

 

- She found Rand in the mirror world and likely saved his life there and the lives of his friends by telling him where he is at and how to get back. Similarly, she did not take the Horn of Valere away from them.

 

- She saved Rand's life directly in Tear during the trolloc assault.

 

- She actively conspired with him to trap Asmodeon and Rand would never have had a chance without her help. She told him where Asmodeon is at and then let him keep the male access key. She also shielded Asmodeon so that he could teach Rand without being a threat.

 

- She visited Rand and offered information about the other Forsakens plots. She actually saw that he had the female access key and did not take it for herself.

 

The above is the majority of Mierin's actions in the series...and all of it has not only been helpful to the Light but actually invaluable. In fact, you can argue that Mierin has been Rand's greatest ally (albeit mentally unbalanced sometimes) outside of Moiraine. Nobody else has even come close to helping Rand and his cause as much as Mierin did.

 

What else has she done?

 

- Went crazy at the docks and killed people while trying to kill Rand. Clearly some bad guy actions here finally.

 

- Tried to kill Rand and allies at the cleansing.

 

Aside from her going nuts at the docks...every "bad guy" action she has taken in this series has been after Moridin mind trapped her and forced her into his service. Outside of the docks, we dont even see her killing anyone in the series unless they are a darkfriend. In fact, we dont see her using compulsion or anything. The only real evidence we have that Mierin is an actual bad guy is her status as a Forsaken and her past. And guess how much we know of her past? Almost nothing other than she was a Forsaken that accidentally drilled the bore. We assume she has done plenty of evil things during the AoL, but none of that has been verified or confirmed by anyone.

 

So really...how "evil" is Mierin? There is little evidence that she is an evil person at all in the series and plenty of evidence that she actually isn't that bad. And this is a major reason why some people want her to come back to the light and why some people (myself included) feel like she is being setup to return to the light.

 

As for Moridin...the guy is evil incarnate. We can emphasize with him and understand where hes coming from...but it doesnt change the fact that he is a complete psychopathic evil maniac. The guy is responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths (trolloc wars, etc. are all his doing) and we have seen him personally kill or try to kill many people throughout the series. He is a sociopathic nutjob that kills and destroys without a second thought. It's going to be real hard for this guy to be redeemed and have the reader buy it as an acceptable and fullfilling conclusion.

[RAbbott85]

Just want to bounce this off of you guys: do you think it's possible/probable that Lanfear was turned to the Shadow against her will? I took her appearance at the end of ToM to be sincere pleading. Could it be that if you're turned with 13x13 then the good part of you gets buried away inside of you?

[MasterAblar]

Just want to bounce this off of you guys: do you think it's possible/probable that Lanfear was turned to the Shadow against her will? I took her appearance at the end of ToM to be sincere pleading. Could it be that if you're turned with 13x13 then the good part of you gets buried away inside of you?

 

No, RJ made it clear she went to the Shadow of her own free will. In fact he said she was "ripe for the plucking".

[MasterAblar]

 

- She found Rand in the mirror world and likely saved his life there and the lives of his friends by telling him where he is at and how to get back. Similarly, she did not take the Horn of Valere away from them.

 

 

She's the one who sent him into the mirror world in the first place.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

- She found Rand in the mirror world and likely saved his life there and the lives of his friends by telling him where he is at and how to get back. Similarly, she did not take the Horn of Valere away from them.

 

 

She's the one who sent him into the mirror world in the first place.

 

Where does it say this? I am pretty sure that it makes it clear in the book that Rand did it on his own accidentally by falling asleep and channeling spirit.

[Lisa Campbell]

Just want to bounce this off of you guys: do you think it's possible/probable that Lanfear was turned to the Shadow against her will? I took her appearance at the end of ToM to be sincere pleading. Could it be that if you're turned with 13x13 then the good part of you gets buried away inside of you?

 

It has been said in numerous threads here and there that when a person is 13x13'd that the dark aspects of their personality are magnified and brought to the surface so, I think you are correct about the good part of said person being buried. I imagine that it would be like fighting compulsion such as Morgase/Rhavin and Nynaeve/Moghedian. I'm not sure about Lanfear being forced, though, comments from RJ could be taken that way though and the man was a master of wielding words. I miss him.

[Finnssss22]

 

- She found Rand in the mirror world and likely saved his life there and the lives of his friends by telling him where he is at and how to get back. Similarly, she did not take the Horn of Valere away from them.

 

 

She's the one who sent him into the mirror world in the first place.

 

Where does it say this? I am pretty sure that it makes it clear in the book that Rand did it on his own accidentally by falling asleep and channeling spirit.

 

No, all that's said it that he falls asleep with the void.

You don't find it just a little suspicious how fast Lanfear was able to find Rand amid the hundreds upon hundreds of possible worlds?

 

 

One thing I was wondering from up thread, is how Lanfear saved Rand in the Stone when the Trollocs attacked? Those weren't her Trolloc's that came in after, they were Semirhage's.

All she did was tell him to go get Cal before another Forsaken did.

[Suttree]

Just want to bounce this off of you guys: do you think it's possible/probable that Lanfear was turned to the Shadow against her will? I took her appearance at the end of ToM to be sincere pleading. Could it be that if you're turned with 13x13 then the good part of you gets buried away inside of you?

 

It has been said in numerous threads here and there that when a person is 13x13'd that the dark aspects of their personality are magnified and brought to the surface so, I think you are correct about the good part of said person being buried. I imagine that it would be like fighting compulsion such as Morgase/Rhavin and Nynaeve/Moghedian. I'm not sure about Lanfear being forced, though, comments from RJ could be taken that way though and the man was a master of wielding words. I miss him.

 

Here are some of his comments on Lanfear...

 

RJ

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

[Luckers]

 

- She found Rand in the mirror world and likely saved his life there and the lives of his friends by telling him where he is at and how to get back. Similarly, she did not take the Horn of Valere away from them.

 

 

She's the one who sent him into the mirror world in the first place.

 

Where does it say this? I am pretty sure that it makes it clear in the book that Rand did it on his own accidentally by falling asleep and channeling spirit.

 

Largely this is based on a combination of egwenes dream and the sheer coincidental circumstances.

[FarShainMael]

Indeed. Egwene's dream (TGH12):

 

...she saw Rand sleeping on the ground.... A woman had been standing over him, looking down. Her face was in shadow, but her eyes seemed to shine like the moon, and Egwene had known she was evil. Then there was a flash of light, and they were gone. Both of them.

[MasterAblar]

 

- She found Rand in the mirror world and likely saved his life there and the lives of his friends by telling him where he is at and how to get back. Similarly, she did not take the Horn of Valere away from them.

 

 

She's the one who sent him into the mirror world in the first place.

 

Where does it say this? I am pretty sure that it makes it clear in the book that Rand did it on his own accidentally by falling asleep and channeling spirit.

 

What those above said.

[Aquarius]

Indeed. Egwene's dream (TGH12):

 

...she saw Rand sleeping on the ground.... A woman had been standing over him, looking down. Her face was in shadow, but her eyes seemed to shine like the moon, and Egwene had known she was evil. Then there was a flash of light, and they were gone. Both of them.

And that could also be a reason to have a very unimpressive tFoM event: imagine Rand gone in the morning and everybody else wondering what the hell is going on here. Armies that aren't exactly friends facing each other, ...