Aes Sedai Bonded!

[Lisa Campbell]

After bonding her Logain says "I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

The last part, about her not being a wife, makes no sense if the extra bit refers to the kiss or the effect on the one bonded. Why would those things be an issue if she was a wife? Using compulsion on your wife on the other hand...

 

 

The bond created by the Ashaman had no Compulsion to begin with.

Since they created the bond just to keep in touch with their family, they didn't saw any reason to add Compulsion, and because they thought that husband-love one was the only way they'll use it, they didn't bothered to find another way of implementing it, so they used the kiss even after they change it to accommodate the AS.

 

When they bonded the AS, they changed the bond and added the Compulsion part, that was the only way they could be sure they will not try to escape or to attack them. That's why he said he added the extra part(Compulsion): since she's not his wife/friend, he couldn't just trust her blindly and hope she won't try to escape, so he used Compulsion to make sure she won't do something stupid.

The only other safe way to deal with them was to kill them after they were captured and no longer a thread(just as their orders were to deal with the AM), which the AM couldn't do because Rand told them not to, and they are good guys, all things considered.

I guess they could have bypassed the bonding if they had a Oath Rod, but alas, no such luck.

 

Yeah but IIRC there is nothing in the books to say that the compulsion was not in the original bond. Being well trained husbands in Randland, would they even try to order their wives around? I don't recall any experimenting or even time to get compulsion in there if it was added later. If that was indeed the case, I think RJ would have slipped some foreshadowing or explanation in there at some stage.

 

Edited to add: maybe they accidentally found out about the compulsion when telling their wives not to worry when they are leaving on mission and feeling serenity replace angst in the bond.

 

 

Well, there is. Sort off.

“Women are beyond any belief,” Gaul muttered.

 

Perrin opened his mouth to defend Faile before he realized it must be Bain and Chiad the man was glaring at. To cover, he said, “Do you have a wife, Grady?”

 

“Sora,” Grady answered absently, his attention still on the surrounding trees. Perrin would have wagered he held the Power now, for sure. Anyone could see a long way in this, compared to any woods back home, but someone could still sneak up on you. “She’s missing me,” Grady went on, almost to himself. “You learn to recognize that one right off. I wish I knew why her knee hurts, though.”

 

“Her knee hurts,” Perrin said flatly. “Right this minute, it hurts.”

 

Grady seemed to realize he was staring, and Gaul was too. He blinked, but went right back to his study. “Forgive me, Lord Perrin. I need to keep a watch.” For a long moment he said nothing, then began slowly, “It’s something a fellow named Canler worked out. The M’Hael doesn’t like us trying to figure out things on our own, but once it was done . . . ” His slight grimace said perhaps Taim had not been all that easy about it even then. “We think maybe it’s something like the bond between Warders and Aes Sedai. Maybe one in three of us is married; anyway, that’s how many wives stayed instead of running off when they learned what their husbands were. This way, when you’re apart from her, you know she’s all right, and she knows you are. A man likes to know his wife’s safe.”

 

You see, this is not the same bond the AS used for Warders, and that has a little Compulsion in it.

This bond the AM create was a very simple one, and they only worked on being able to maintain a connection that will make them know how the other feels like.

They did it so they could know the ones they love are OK. I don't see why they should just add some extra Compulsion in the mix. They are not AS.

This was not a warder bond, it was a 'love bond'.

When the AS tried to kill them, they just added some Compulsion to keep them from doing something they'll both regret, so the that bond is a 'tough love bond', or a 'love bond 2.0 for AS operating systems'. Easy as pi.

 

"Sort of" being the operative words there. There is nothing to say that the Compulsion wasn't there even if it was only intended as a "love bond" initially. Even with the Warder Bond, it needs to be tweaked to Compel the Warder. And somewhere along the line Elayne thinks about making her next Warder take an oath of obeisance because Birgitte is so unruly.

 

Also, if they already know Taim doesn't like them experimenting, why would they go further when Taim is already unhappy with them for learning/creating the bond in the first place.

 

And another thing, even the wondergirls had to be taught Compulsion by Moghedean, it was not somethin they worked out on their own. So why, when Logain and co. didn't know Blossoms of Fire or Death Gates until seeing Rand perform them at Algarin's Manor House, would they know how to add Compulsion to their love bond? The Forsaken (including Taim by default) don't teach their subjects anything that could potentially be used against them. Which is the main reason why I think that the Compulsion is there without intent.

 

Or another take, it could just be a "thing" about male channelers being stronger in general. Hark back to a scene where Cadsuane is somewhat disgruntled to learn that Merise is having some problems with who is on top between her and Narishma over his Dragon Pin. Narishma is not unduly influenced by her and actually does influence Merise even though she "holds" the bond.

[MasterAblar]

After bonding her Logain says "I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

The last part, about her not being a wife, makes no sense if the extra bit refers to the kiss or the effect on the one bonded. Why would those things be an issue if she was a wife? Using compulsion on your wife on the other hand...

 

 

The bond created by the Ashaman had no Compulsion to begin with.

Since they created the bond just to keep in touch with their family, they didn't saw any reason to add Compulsion, and because they thought that husband-love one was the only way they'll use it, they didn't bothered to find another way of implementing it, so they used the kiss even after they change it to accommodate the AS.

 

When they bonded the AS, they changed the bond and added the Compulsion part, that was the only way they could be sure they will not try to escape or to attack them. That's why he said he added the extra part(Compulsion): since she's not his wife/friend, he couldn't just trust her blindly and hope she won't try to escape, so he used Compulsion to make sure she won't do something stupid.

The only other safe way to deal with them was to kill them after they were captured and no longer a thread(just as their orders were to deal with the AM), which the AM couldn't do because Rand told them not to, and they are good guys, all things considered.

I guess they could have bypassed the bonding if they had a Oath Rod, but alas, no such luck.

 

Yeah but IIRC there is nothing in the books to say that the compulsion was not in the original bond. Being well trained husbands in Randland, would they even try to order their wives around? I don't recall any experimenting or even time to get compulsion in there if it was added later. If that was indeed the case, I think RJ would have slipped some foreshadowing or explanation in there at some stage.

 

Edited to add: maybe they accidentally found out about the compulsion when telling their wives not to worry when they are leaving on mission and feeling serenity replace angst in the bond.

 

 

Well, there is. Sort off.

“Women are beyond any belief,” Gaul muttered.

 

Perrin opened his mouth to defend Faile before he realized it must be Bain and Chiad the man was glaring at. To cover, he said, “Do you have a wife, Grady?”

 

“Sora,” Grady answered absently, his attention still on the surrounding trees. Perrin would have wagered he held the Power now, for sure. Anyone could see a long way in this, compared to any woods back home, but someone could still sneak up on you. “She’s missing me,” Grady went on, almost to himself. “You learn to recognize that one right off. I wish I knew why her knee hurts, though.”

 

“Her knee hurts,” Perrin said flatly. “Right this minute, it hurts.”

 

Grady seemed to realize he was staring, and Gaul was too. He blinked, but went right back to his study. “Forgive me, Lord Perrin. I need to keep a watch.” For a long moment he said nothing, then began slowly, “It’s something a fellow named Canler worked out. The M’Hael doesn’t like us trying to figure out things on our own, but once it was done . . . ” His slight grimace said perhaps Taim had not been all that easy about it even then. “We think maybe it’s something like the bond between Warders and Aes Sedai. Maybe one in three of us is married; anyway, that’s how many wives stayed instead of running off when they learned what their husbands were. This way, when you’re apart from her, you know she’s all right, and she knows you are. A man likes to know his wife’s safe.”

 

You see, this is not the same bond the AS used for Warders, and that has a little Compulsion in it.

This bond the AM create was a very simple one, and they only worked on being able to maintain a connection that will make them know how the other feels like.

They did it so they could know the ones they love are OK. I don't see why they should just add some extra Compulsion in the mix. They are not AS.

This was not a warder bond, it was a 'love bond'.

When the AS tried to kill them, they just added some Compulsion to keep them from doing something they'll both regret, so the that bond is a 'tough love bond', or a 'love bond 2.0 for AS operating systems'. Easy as pi.

 

"Sort of" being the operative words there. There is nothing to say that the Compulsion wasn't there even if it was only intended as a "love bond" initially. Even with the Warder Bond, it needs to be tweaked to Compel the Warder. And somewhere along the line Elayne thinks about making her next Warder take an oath of obeisance because Birgitte is so unruly.

 

Also, if they already know Taim doesn't like them experimenting, why would they go further when Taim is already unhappy with them for learning/creating the bond in the first place.

 

And another thing, even the wondergirls had to be taught Compulsion by Moghedean, it was not somethin they worked out on their own. So why, when Logain and co. didn't know Blossoms of Fire or Death Gates until seeing Rand perform them at Algarin's Manor House, would they know how to add Compulsion to their love bond? The Forsaken (including Taim by default) don't teach their subjects anything that could potentially be used against them. Which is the main reason why I think that the Compulsion is there without intent.

 

Or another take, it could just be a "thing" about male channelers being stronger in general. Hark back to a scene where Cadsuane is somewhat disgruntled to learn that Merise is having some problems with who is on top between her and Narishma over his Dragon Pin. Narishma is not unduly influenced by her and actually does influence Merise even though she "holds" the bond.

 

This doen't fit with Logain's statement that he could have done without the extra bit but that it's necessary because she is no wife. The only thing that fits with this statement is Compulsion. I doubt the wives would agree to their husbands using compulsion on them. A kiss on the other hand should be no problem, nor should the effect on the bonded (though the wives might want to know about it before hand). Compulsion however would be a major issue.

 

Considering Taim ordered them to bond those Aes Sedai, he might have made an exception and let them figure out how to add compulsion to the bond, since it's the only practical way they can stop them from harming the BT without harming them. He might even have told them how to do it.

[Mulk]

Honestly, I don't think you can call the extra bit Compulsion. I mean, it compels the person bonded to behave according to the wishes of the one who did the bonding, but it in no way resembles what happens when Moghedien or Graendal uses the weave on someone. The one compelled, by and large, longs to satisfy the desires or questions of the one who spun the Compulsion weave. They even lack, to a greater or lesser degree, the ability to choose anything for themselves while under its sway. The bond forces obedience to direct commands, but beyond that the sisters are free to think their own thoughts and do anything that isn't expressly forbidden. In that it far more resembles the oath rod than the Talent we are discussing here, so it's probably more akin to that.

 

I'm not saying that doesn't present its own difficulties, because it does. Just we are barking up the wrong tree in trying to figure it out. :) Of course, people do experiment, and it could be that in the process of playing with or thinking about or discussing the weaves someone hit on something that would work. You know, trying to figure out how to bond someone as the Aes Sedai do, how they get their Warders to obey at the times they dig their feet in, that sort of thing. Just throwing it out there.

[Suttree]

You see, this is not the same bond the AS used for Warders, and that has a little Compulsion in it.

This bond the AM create was a very simple one, and they only worked on being able to maintain a connection that will make them know how the other feels like.

They did it so they could know the ones they love are OK. I don't see why they should just add some extra Compulsion in the mix. They are not AS.

This was not a warder bond, it was a 'love bond'.

When the AS tried to kill them, they just added some Compulsion to keep them from doing something they'll both regret, so the that bond is a 'tough love bond', or a 'love bond 2.0 for AS operating systems'. Easy as pi.

 

But we know per RJ that's not how it happened. Also the compulsion aspect is much stronger than the ones AS use. They have been experimenting with different things they can do with the bond(also note they would have no one else to experiment on besides their wives), so they have been working on much more than a "simple bond". They didn't just add it all of a sudden to deal with AS.

 

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

[Xcorpyo001]

You see, this is not the same bond the AS used for Warders, and that has a little Compulsion in it.

This bond the AM create was a very simple one, and they only worked on being able to maintain a connection that will make them know how the other feels like.

They did it so they could know the ones they love are OK. I don't see why they should just add some extra Compulsion in the mix. They are not AS.

This was not a warder bond, it was a 'love bond'.

When the AS tried to kill them, they just added some Compulsion to keep them from doing something they'll both regret, so the that bond is a 'tough love bond', or a 'love bond 2.0 for AS operating systems'. Easy as pi.

 

But we know per RJ that's not how it happened. Also the compulsion aspect is much stronger than the ones AS use. They have been experimenting with different things they can do with the bond(also note they would have no one else to experiment on besides their wives), so they have been working on much more than a "simple bond". They didn't just add it all of a sudden to deal with AS.

 

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

Is there a specific quote that states that they only used it on the wives or that they forced them in any way through the bond?

From what I understood from that Q&A from Alberta, they first did it for the wives, kiss and all, and only later that dude that figured it out tried to upgrade it, but I think they did it on other people, because they can't just lift the bond they put on the wives at first and do it again with the compulsion/control upgrade.

As to the AS, I don't think they are so far behind with the research. They seem to have some very specific ideas about it:

 

 

We may need these men, but we must be certain we are in control. Complete control.”

 

Egwene nodded. A small nod. She agreed, but . . . “There might be difficulties bringing them to accept that,” she said. Difficulties. She was displaying a positive talent for understatement today.

 

“The Warder bond could be modified slightly,” Maigan said. “As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweaking, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily.”

 

“That sounds too much like Compulsion,” Egwene said firmly. She had learned that weave from Moghedien, but only to work on how to counter it. The thing was filth, the theft of another person’s will, of their whole being. Someone who was Compelled did anything you ordered. Anything. And believed it was their own choice. Just thinking about it made her feel dirty.

 

Maigan met her gaze almost as levelly as Lelaine had, though, and her voice was as smooth as her face. She had no thoughts of filth. “Compulsion was used on sisters in Cairhien. That seems certain, now. But I was talking about the bond, a different thing entirely.”

 

“You think you can talk the Asha’man into accepting the bond?” Egwene could not keep the incredulity out of her voice. “Aside from that, who is going to do this bonding? Even if every sister who doesn’t have a Warder took an Asha’man, and every Green took two or three, there aren’t enough sisters. That’s if you can find one who doesn’t mind being bonded to a man who is going to go mad.”

 

Maigan nodded at each point as if accepting it. And adjusted her skirts as if not really listening. “If the bond can be changed in one way,” she said once Egwene finished, “it should be possible to change it in others. There might be a way to remove the sharing, perhaps some of the awareness. Then perhaps the madness would not be a problem. It would be a different sort of bond, not like the Warder bond at all. I’m certain everyone will agree it wouldn’t be like having a Warder, really. Any sister could bond whatever number of Asha’man was necessary.”

 

Abruptly, Egwene realized what was happening. Lelaine sat apparently peering into her teacup, but she was studying Egwene through her eyelashes. And using Maigan as a stalking horse. Smothering anger, Egwene did not have to make her voice cold. It was ice.

 

“That sounds exactly like Compulsion, Lelaine. It is Compulsion, and no twisting of words will make it anything else. I will point that out to anyone else who suggests this.

 

 

 

Look at the Warder bond.

The Warder bond could be modified slightly,” Maigan said. “As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweaking, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily.

 

So, now they have some sort of buffer, a need to think about controlling the guy in order to actually do it.

But they can remove that need to tweak it, and so they could do it all the time, without having to think about the tweak every time.

I think the initial bond had a higher level of control, but they but a stopper on it at one time, so the user had to focus in order to actually control the man linked with the user, a stopper that can be easily removed.

[MasterAblar]

You see, this is not the same bond the AS used for Warders, and that has a little Compulsion in it.

This bond the AM create was a very simple one, and they only worked on being able to maintain a connection that will make them know how the other feels like.

They did it so they could know the ones they love are OK. I don't see why they should just add some extra Compulsion in the mix. They are not AS.

This was not a warder bond, it was a 'love bond'.

When the AS tried to kill them, they just added some Compulsion to keep them from doing something they'll both regret, so the that bond is a 'tough love bond', or a 'love bond 2.0 for AS operating systems'. Easy as pi.

 

But we know per RJ that's not how it happened. Also the compulsion aspect is much stronger than the ones AS use. They have been experimenting with different things they can do with the bond(also note they would have no one else to experiment on besides their wives), so they have been working on much more than a "simple bond". They didn't just add it all of a sudden to deal with AS.

 

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

It's possible some Ashaman was desperate to hang to his wife, and tried to bond her with compulsion, or it may be that they simply figured out the theory but never tested it until the Aes Sedai came along. Or it's possible that Taim told them how to add compulsion once it was decided that they would need it to control the Aes Sedai.

[Mr Ares]

Then why persist in pretending that the actions of the Reds were in any way justified, or in denying that the actions of the Asha'man were justified?

 

This statement: "the Red's were in someways doing their duty." Is untrue. Under IN-WORLD laws and customs.

 

The Ahsaman were justified in adding that bit to the bond that requires obedience? They couldn't have just done it the normal way?

 

As for in-world laws and customs, as you know they change with the times. What was okay during the Breaking is frowned upon now. My point, is it the first or last time Red's have stilled and hanged men without bringing them to the WT first? I doubt it and with TG on the doorstep, who knows what they think they are right in doing to a group that is growing larger by the day and will some day pose an enormous threat to the world. So yes, in "someways" they thought they were doing their duty.

They added nothing. Re-read the text. AS can compel obedience from their Warders. The "extra bit" refers to something else entirely.

The extra bit refers to the compulsive aspect of the bond. The Asha'man developed the bond for use on wives - thus without the compulsive aspect. It was indeed an extra from their point of view.

 

Yes that is how I always read it as well, in addition RJ's quotes seem to support it.

 

How so? The "extra bit" that Logain finds distasteful is clearly the physical contact required, and the effect on the one bonded. There is already compulsion in the bond, even as employ by the AS, so no "extra bit" of compulsion is required.

 

The RJ quotes already posted do nothing at all to resolve the question. Are there others?

 

After bonding her Logain says "I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

The last part, about her not being a wife, makes no sense if the extra bit refers to the kiss or the effect on the one bonded. Why would those things be an issue if she was a wife? Using compulsion on your wife on the other hand...

 

I always took that "extra bit" that Logain could have done without as Toveine's err, French, reaction to the kiss and the bonding.

And the "I suppose it is necessary" part? Does he just think that highly of himself?

 

 

And another thing, even the wondergirls had to be taught Compulsion by Moghedean, it was not somethin they worked out on their own. So why, when Logain and co. didn't know Blossoms of Fire or Death Gates until seeing Rand perform them at Algarin's Manor House, would they know how to add Compulsion to their love bond? The Forsaken (including Taim by default) don't teach their subjects anything that could potentially be used against them. Which is the main reason why I think that the Compulsion is there without intent.

Compulsion is one of the most common wilder tricks. Working it out on your own is actually very common.

 

Or another take, it could just be a "thing" about male channelers being stronger in general. Hark back to a scene where Cadsuane is somewhat disgruntled to learn that Merise is having some problems with who is on top between her and Narishma over his Dragon Pin. Narishma is not unduly influenced by her and actually does influence Merise even though she "holds" the bond.

Or Merise is just not using compulsion. After all, you don't want a bodyguard who is only following you because you make him. Excessive use of compulsion is a bad idea, so she was probably not using it if she didn't have to.

 

 

Honestly, I don't think you can call the extra bit Compulsion. I mean, it compels the person bonded to behave according to the wishes of the one who did the bonding, but it in no way resembles what happens when Moghedien or Graendal uses the weave on someone. The one compelled, by and large, longs to satisfy the desires or questions of the one who spun the Compulsion weave. They even lack, to a greater or lesser degree, the ability to choose anything for themselves while under its sway. The bond forces obedience to direct commands, but beyond that the sisters are free to think their own thoughts and do anything that isn't expressly forbidden. In that it far more resembles the oath rod than the Talent we are discussing here, so it's probably more akin to that.

That's an overly narrow view of compulsion. Graendal's uses range from the incredibly subtle to the leaving-you-brain-dead-if-removed. Verin's form is a rather weak version. It's a common wilder trick - getting daddy to buy you a dress you wanted, or getting that boy you fancy to go out with you. What we see of the sisters is in no way incompatible with compulsion.

[Lisa Campbell]

OK I'd forgotten about the wilder thing and compulsion. Thanks for the reminder.

[Suttree]

You see, this is not the same bond the AS used for Warders, and that has a little Compulsion in it.

This bond the AM create was a very simple one, and they only worked on being able to maintain a connection that will make them know how the other feels like.

They did it so they could know the ones they love are OK. I don't see why they should just add some extra Compulsion in the mix. They are not AS.

This was not a warder bond, it was a 'love bond'.

When the AS tried to kill them, they just added some Compulsion to keep them from doing something they'll both regret, so the that bond is a 'tough love bond', or a 'love bond 2.0 for AS operating systems'. Easy as pi.

 

But we know per RJ that's not how it happened. Also the compulsion aspect is much stronger than the ones AS use. They have been experimenting with different things they can do with the bond(also note they would have no one else to experiment on besides their wives), so they have been working on much more than a "simple bond". They didn't just add it all of a sudden to deal with AS.

 

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

Is there a specific quote that states that they only used it on the wives or that they forced them in any way through the bond?

From what I understood from that Q&A from Alberta, they first did it for the wives, kiss and all, and only later that dude that figured it out tried to upgrade it, but I think they did it on other people, because they can't just lift the bond they put on the wives at first and do it again with the compulsion/control upgrade.

As to the AS, I don't think they are so far behind with the research. They seem to have some very specific ideas about it:

 

Why don't we just stick to the quote. RJ says very clearly "The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai". As for the experimenting it says "then they(as in multiple) started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. You would not need to lift the bond to alter it, and I'm not sure who else they would have practiced on. Are they roaming the countryside trying it on random women? Do they have captives before the AS they are using? No...the wives are pretty much the only realistic option for this type of thing. Especially considering that is what's mentioned in the quote.

[Suttree]

double post, please remove

[Xcorpyo001]

Why don't we just stick to the quote. RJ says very clearly "The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai". As for the experimenting it says "then they(as in multiple) started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. You would not need to lift the bond to alter it, and I'm not sure who else they would have practiced on. Are they roaming the countryside trying it on random women? Do they have captives before the AS they are using? No...the wives are pretty much the only realistic option for this type of thing. Especially considering that is what's mentioned in the quote.

 

 

She herself leaped from her saddle and tossed her reins to one of the grooms, and she was no quicker than Yarman, who hurried to hold Sareitha’s bridle while she climbed down. He was what some sisters called “fresh caught,” bonded less than a year—the term dated from a time when Warders had not always been asked whether they wanted the bond—and he was very assiduous in his duties.

 

This is a quote from WH.

At first, the AS used the bond more freely, and not always with consent. So if they wanted the 'captured' Warder to listen to them, a level of control(Compulsion or something else) was required, at least at first. I believe the 'need to tweak' was added at a later time, and from a what an AS said to Egwene, it can be easily removed.

 

We may need these men, but we must be certain we are in control. Complete control.”

 

Egwene nodded. A small nod. She agreed, but . . . “There might be difficulties bringing them to accept that,” she said. Difficulties. She was displaying a positive talent for understatement today.

 

“The Warder bond could be modified slightly,” Maigan said. “As it is, you can make the man do as you wish with a little tweaking, but the need to tweak could be removed quite easily.”

 

“That sounds too much like Compulsion,” Egwene said firmly. She had learned that weave from Moghedien, but only to work on how to counter it. The thing was filth, the theft of another person’s will, of their whole being. Someone who was Compelled did anything you ordered. Anything. And believed it was their own choice. Just thinking about it made her feel dirty.

 

Maigan met her gaze almost as levelly as Lelaine had, though, and her voice was as smooth as her face. She had no thoughts of filth. “Compulsion was used on sisters in Cairhien. That seems certain, now. But I was talking about the bond, a different thing entirely.”

 

“You think you can talk the Asha’man into accepting the bond?” Egwene could not keep the incredulity out of her voice. “Aside from that, who is going to do this bonding? Even if every sister who doesn’t have a Warder took an Asha’man, and every Green took two or three, there aren’t enough sisters. That’s if you can find one who doesn’t mind being bonded to a man who is going to go mad.”

 

Maigan nodded at each point as if accepting it. And adjusted her skirts as if not really listening. “If the bond can be changed in one way,” she said once Egwene finished, “it should be possible to change it in others. There might be a way to remove the sharing, perhaps some of the awareness. Then perhaps the madness would not be a problem. It would be a different sort of bond, not like the Warder bond at all. I’m certain everyone will agree it wouldn’t be like having a Warder, really. Any sister could bond whatever number of Asha’man was necessary.”

 

 

This this sounds like the AS have no idea about the Bond and on ways to modify it?!?

They have used it for thousands of years, and at first on unwilling Warders, as the first quote clearly states. They had a lot of time to realize what it does. Most of them passed it as it was, but somewhere in those thousands of years, at least one sister(especially a Brown) probably tried to tweak it further, or squeeze it for everything it had to offer.

The AM started from a simple bond and later added Compulsion, because, unlike their wives, the bonded AS could not be trusted.

It could have been a lot worse for the AS, considering their mission and other ways they could have made sure they were no longer a threat.

 

EDIT:

Also in WH.

Once more Eldrith blinked, as if startled to be addressed. “Oh. Were you afraid Kennit had found me again? I assure you, since Samara I have been quite careful at keeping the bond masked.”

Eldrith is a BA sister that can mask her bond with her non-DF Warder, so the later can't locate her. I don't think the other sisters know about this technique, so at least some AS know a lot more than they are credited for about the Bond and different ways to tweak it.

[Suttree]

....

 

You can provide all the quotes you want that have shaped your opinion, all I'm saying is we have an unambigious statement from RJ on the topic and I prefer to take his word on it.

[Xcorpyo001]

....

 

You can provide all the quotes you want that have shaped your opinion, all I'm saying is we have an unambigious statement from RJ on the topic and I prefer to take his word on it.

 

 

I'll always take his word for it, especially the one used in his books, in multiple quotes. But everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

[Suttree]

....

 

You can provide all the quotes you want that have shaped your opinion, all I'm saying is we have an unambigious statement from RJ on the topic and I prefer to take his word on it.

 

 

I'll always take his word for it, especially the one used in his books, in multiple quotes. But everyone is entitled to his own opinion.

 

But that's the point, all the quotes you provide need your spin and interpretation to make a guess at what you are trying to prove. On the other hand we have RJ flat out saying the opposite of the point you are trying to make. So no you aren't taking his word on it. What you are doing is the same as the people that say Taim is still Demandred because they can provide quotes that they think supports it. You are entitled to your opinion, but according to RJ it's wrong.

[SuperFade]

All the quote says is that the Asha'man experimented with the bond. It doesn't say they used compulsion on their wives. It proves nothing conclusively.

[Lisa Campbell]

EDIT:

Also in WH.

Once more Eldrith blinked, as if startled to be addressed. “Oh. Were you afraid Kennit had found me again? I assure you, since Samara I have been quite careful at keeping the bond masked.”

Eldrith is a BA sister that can mask her bond with her non-DF Warder, so the later can't locate her. I don't think the other sisters know about this technique, so at least some AS know a lot more than they are credited for about the Bond and different ways to tweak it.

 

It is not rare for an Aes Sedai to mask the bond. I can't remember who told Elayne about it but she used it on Birgitte when she bonded Rand and had her way with him.

 

Also, how would the AS with multiple Warders be able to have relations with them without it? I'm thinking of Merilille (yeah I meant Myrelle - trying to post when getting 2 boys back to school after hol's, bound to happen) here and the rumors that she is married to all three of her Warders plus she tried it on Lan in order to save him after Moiraine went AWAL.

[Xcorpyo001]

EDIT:

Also in WH.

Once more Eldrith blinked, as if startled to be addressed. “Oh. Were you afraid Kennit had found me again? I assure you, since Samara I have been quite careful at keeping the bond masked.”

Eldrith is a BA sister that can mask her bond with her non-DF Warder, so the later can't locate her. I don't think the other sisters know about this technique, so at least some AS know a lot more than they are credited for about the Bond and different ways to tweak it.

 

It is not rare for an Aes Sedai to mask the bond. I can't remember who told Elayne about it but she used it on Birgitte when she bonded Rand and had her way with him.

 

Also, how would the AS with multiple Warders be able to have relations with them without it? I'm thinking of Merilille here and the rumors that she is married to all three of her Warders plus she tried it on Lan in order to save him after Moiraine went AWAL.

 

I think it was Vandene who told Elayne how to do it, but she couldn't maintain it during her 'meeting' with Rand, so Birgitte had to 'suffer' through the entire thing anyway, and I think the same goes for Myrelle(not Merilille) and her Warders, so it has some limitations.

When I said that not many know about it or us it in the series, I was talking about the Red sisters for example, or Moiraine and many others who never use it(at least not from what I can remember).

 

Anyway, I didn't encountered anything about this technique related to the bond when the Ashaman's bond was explained or talked about. So maybe there are still parts of the bond the Ashaman don't know yet, but the AS knew for a long time.

And the Warder bond has a degree of control/Compulsion in it, because the AS can force the Warder to do her bidding if she chooses to tweak the bond, so it's not different from the bond the Ashaman used on the AS.

[Suttree]

All the quote says is that the Asha'man experimented with the bond. It doesn't say they used compulsion on their wives. It proves nothing conclusively.

 

Not sure what you are responding to but we weren't discussing that aspect of the bond, although I think the quote does support that. We were talking about how much more the Ashaman know about the bonding process about which RJ said "The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai" & "The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew." You can't have it any more straight than that.

 

And the Warder bond has a degree of control/Compulsion in it, because the AS can force the Warder to do her bidding if she chooses to tweak the bond, so it's not different from the bond the Ashaman used on the AS.

 

If she chooses to "tweak" the bond indicates it is different. In addition the question itself shows it's different.

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves.

 

As for masking the bond the this is something most AS know how to do.

 

Australia Interview - August 1999

 

 

Q: Would a Gaidin be aware if his Aes Sedai was Black?

 

RJ: There are some ways that the Aes Sedai can fuzz, so to speak, the two way nature of the bond. After all, think about it a minute. Do you know many women who'd really like to have this guy looking over her shoulder if she was getting it on with somebody? This minute that she doesn't really want him to know what's going on, what she's doing, she can fuzz the bond to the extent that Elyas Machera has to ask whether the woman who is his . . . who held his bond has perished. He needs to know. He can't be sure simply by feeling because she fuzzed the bond after he ran away so he wouldn't know until she tapped him on the shoulder.

[randsc]

Not sure what you are responding to but we weren't discussing that aspect of the bond, although I think the quote does support that. We were talking about how much more the Ashaman know about the bonding process about which RJ said "The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai" & "The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew." You can't have it any more straight than that.

 

Umm, yeah, you can. That quote says nothing at all about what exactly the "extra bit" is, only how it came to be. The RJ quotes are not the dis-positive evidence that you want to pretend that they are.

[Suttree]

Not sure what you are responding to but we weren't discussing that aspect of the bond, although I think the quote does support that. We were talking about how much more the Ashaman know about the bonding process about which RJ said "The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai" & "The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew." You can't have it any more straight than that.

 

Umm, yeah, you can. That quote says nothing at all about what exactly the "extra bit" is, only how it came to be. The RJ quotes are not the dis-positive evidence that you want to pretend that they are.

 

Per my post above Randsc, this part of the discussion was referring only to the perspective knowledge of AS and Ashaman about bonds, nothing more. Wasn't even referring to the extra bit.

 

If you want to talk about it more though I refer you to Mastar Ablar's posts with the quote from Logain. I notice you haven't even tried to explain away that.

 

"I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

Because I'm sure that would refer to the "extra bit" being sexual.

[Lisa Campbell]

 

"I could have done without the extra bit," [...] "yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife."

 

Because I'm sure that would refer to the "extra bit" being sexual.

 

I always took that "extra bit" that Logain could have done without as Toveine's err' date=' French, reaction to the kiss and the bonding.

[/quote']

 

That's what I said! (not the whole post, a while back on this thread). It's good to know that I'm not the only one to think this because there hasn't really been a reply or argument to this line of thinking.

[Suttree]

Not sure what you are responding to but we weren't discussing that aspect of the bond, although I think the quote does support that. We were talking about how much more the Ashaman know about the bonding process about which RJ said "The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai" & "The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew." You can't have it any more straight than that.

 

Umm, yeah, you can. That quote says nothing at all about what exactly the "extra bit" is, only how it came to be. The RJ quotes are not the dis-positive evidence that you want to pretend that they are.

 

I knew I had read it...

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: How is the bond the Asha'man use different than the Warder bond of the Aes Sedai?

RJ: The bond is different because it contains that Extra Bit about obedience. Aes Sedai bound to Asha'man are compelled to comply with the demands of the men. While Aes Sedai can do this to their Warders, it requires work each time.

 

Is that enough positive evidence for you?

[SuperFade]

Your original argument was that the Asha'Man experimented using Compulsion on their wives. Something that has nothing whatsoever to do with RJ's quote.

[Suttree]

Your original argument was that the Asha'Man experimented using Compulsion on their wives. Something that has nothing whatsoever to do with RJ's quote.

 

Care to go back and read the thread Super? My original point was in posts #65-67, that the extra bit was compulsion whereas Randsc said it was the sexual reaction. The quote above from RJ plus the one in text from Logain conclusively shuts down that interpretation.

 

EDIT: Ah, I see by your edit you figured out the problem with your argument.

 

? I corrected a typo...

 

As for the extra bit..

Bela the Horse from Tel'aran'rhiod: What was the "extra bit" in The Path of Daggers? Was it the kiss or the bonding? Please help settle this long-standing dispute.

RJ: The kiss is necessary, because that's how they learned to do it, because that's how the fellow that developed it did it. The extra bit is something in the bonding, and you'll find out what in Winter's Heart. You should have gotten a clue, I think, in the scene where the bonding took place.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

 

Q: Is it possible for an Aes Sedai to bond someone Asha'man style?

RJ: Yes, if they learned the weaves. The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

 

The extra bit is the compulsion and per RJ it is diff.

 

Not sure why you are so focused on how it came to be? This is the second post in a row you've been wrong and jumped in with the wives when it wasn't even what we were discussing. Although I stand by my thought that I'm not sure who else they had to "experiment" on?

[Luckers]

Ok, eveyone, play nice.