Elaida: Villain or Victim?

[LazyMonk]

No one likes Elaida. She's not a likeable person. She's selfish, abusive, power hungry, and near the end... more than a little insane.

However, how much of the disasters during her brief rule as Amyrlin are her fault?

 

Eliada was practically raised to power by the Black Ajah. She was, unknowingly, tied to them from the very first moment. All the decrees designed to cause rifts between the Ajahs originated from the Black and made possible only by Elaida's weakness.

 

And another major point, Elaida was tainted by Fain. A taint that grows and spreads over time and causes her to distrust everything and everyone. This is displayed clearly in how she 'simply' disbelieves basically every intelligence report--news of the Seanchan, reports of the Black Tower, Egwene's Dreaming, etc...

 

So... How would you rank Elaida: Villain or Victim?

[Thor]

She's an idiot, not a villain.

[Xcorpyo001]

She's an idiot, not a villain.

 

 

Yep, I think idiot is a better description. Anyway, I voted for both: villain and idiot victim

In truth, both Elaida and Siuan were played by the BA and Mesanna(Danelle).

Since most of the people that helped her and gained power in doing so were BA, all her ulterior decisions were somehow forced on her, and she din't had the back-up to do something else.

But as Amyrlin goes, she was better than others. I think her punishments of people who stood against her(even Egwene) were not as hard as the punishments under the rule of Sierin Vayu(which I think was a undercover Red) for example.

 

Anyway, she's the first Red to became Amyrlin in like 1000 years, so thumbs up for her in that account.

Let's face it, her plans were destined to fail, because she tried to control persons with super plot shield, like Rand, Egwene, etc, so she was supposed to fail from the bat.

Yes, she sent some AS to the Mistress of Novices, but she didn't had them strapped in the middle of a Hall meeting, like Sierin Vayu.

Egwene tried to use the kidnapping of a king against her, but when she takes control of the tower, Egwene doesn't release the guy because he wants to control Rand herself(the way Elaida did).

About Rand. She first wanted to bring him in diplomatically, and had the kidnapping as a last resort.

Egwene is doing the same thing now, and if she'll not convince Rand the easy way, she'll make him know her anger. I think part of that dagger taint is still around there, in the air/water.

She didn't tried to attack the rebel base, and gave a pardon to all sisters that returned to the tower, trying to rebuild it.

 

Her treatment of Egwene is just, because to her Egwene is just a rebel, an Accepted who believes herself Amyrlin although she didn't even swore the oaths. Accepeted have been sent to the Mistress of Novices for far less than rebelling against the rightful Amyrlin, leading an army against the White Tower and passing as a AS without even swearing the oaths, not to mention passing the test.

[David Selig]

But as Amyrlin goes, she was better than others.

No, she wasn't. Every plan of hers ended in a disaster. She did nothing good for the Tower ever. And she was completely failing in her duty to prepare the Tower for the Last Battle. Yeah, the BA made things more difficult for her, but she was doing great in creating a mess of everything even without their interference. The Black Tower attack was her own idea, despite many reports showing it would be a disaster because there are too many Asha'man. Dumai's Wells was caused by her idea too. She started building a huge palace for herself on the eve of Tarmon Gai'don!

 

I think her punishments of people who stood against her(even Egwene) were not as hard as the punishments under the rule of Sierin Vayu(which I think was a undercover Red) for example.

So did Sierin Vayu still her political opponents and kill their Warders without a trial like Elaida did with Siuan and Leane? Pretty sure she didn't...

 

Let's face it, her plans were destined to fail, because she tried to control persons with super plot shield, like Rand, Egwene, etc, so she was supposed to fail from the bat.

Yeah, but it's not like she made good or at least decent plans who failed due to bad luck or stuff that she could not foresee at the time. She made idiotic plans which were destined to fail because they made no sense.

 

About Rand. She first wanted to bring him in diplomatically, and had the kidnapping as a last resort.

Which doesn't make the kidnapping plan any less stupid. How was the Dragon supposed to fulfil the prophesies as a shielded prisoner in the Tower?

 

Egwene tried to use the kidnapping of a king against her, but when she takes control of the tower, Egwene doesn't release the guy because he wants to control Rand herself(the way Elaida did).

If you mean Mattin Stepaneos, in ToM it is mentioned he is free to leave the Tower, he just don't want to, nobody is holding him against his will.

[Xcorpyo001]

But as Amyrlin goes, she was better than others.

No, she wasn't. Every plan of hers ended in a disaster. She did nothing good for the Tower ever. And she was completely failing in her duty to prepare the Tower for the Last Battle. Yeah, the BA made things more difficult for her, but she was doing great in creating a mess of everything even without their interference. The Black Tower attack was her own idea, despite many reports showing it would be a disaster because there are too many Asha'man. Dumai's Wells was caused by her idea too. She started building a huge palace for herself on the eve of Tarmon Gai'don!

 

I think her punishments of people who stood against her(even Egwene) were not as hard as the punishments under the rule of Sierin Vayu(which I think was a undercover Red) for example.

So did Sierin Vayu still her political opponents and kill their Warders without a trial like Elaida did with Siuan and Leane? Pretty sure she didn't...

 

Let's face it, her plans were destined to fail, because she tried to control persons with super plot shield, like Rand, Egwene, etc, so she was supposed to fail from the bat.

Yeah, but it's not like she made good or at least decent plans who failed due to bad luck or stuff that she could not foresee at the time. She made idiotic plans which were destined to fail because they made no sense.

 

About Rand. She first wanted to bring him in diplomatically, and had the kidnapping as a last resort.

Which doesn't make the kidnapping plan any less stupid. How was the Dragon supposed to fulfil the prophesies as a shielded prisoner in the Tower?

 

Egwene tried to use the kidnapping of a king against her, but when she takes control of the tower, Egwene doesn't release the guy because he wants to control Rand herself(the way Elaida did).

If you mean Mattin Stepaneos, in ToM it is mentioned he is free to leave the Tower, he just don't want to, nobody is holding him against his will.

 

 

Sierin Vayu was elected after the former Amyrlin died, and I think that if a Warden tried to kill her in his attempt to free a prisoner of the tower, she would have kill him the same way.

 

How is the Dragon Reborn going to win a fight after Egwene will try to capture him, or fight any of his plans?!? I'm sure he can come up with another plan...lol. I don't see the WT's plan being any better. Ohhh, they have none. They don't even know how the Bore is, where, how it was sealed, etc. She still believes Rand is crazy, and the only AS that studied the issue and actually healed taint madness was shut down by both Siuan and Egwene because she spent to much time with Rand, agrees with him to much and was probably taverened by the guy.

 

By trying to help/capture him at that time, Elaida was right. They needed time to see how far gone Rand was with his madness, ask him about the Bore, other plans the AS of the AoL had. Her mistake was sending a BA sister to supervise the whole thing. Egwene wants to do this now, with days before the Last Battle. There's no time for that now.

 

Elaida also wanted to find the BA, so in a way, she did her duty as an Amyrlin.

 

Mattin.

 

Next she would respond to a letter from Gregorin den Lushenos of Illian. She hadn’t yet told him

directly that she had Mattin Stepaneos at the White Tower, but had hinted at it. She’d also spoken to

Mattin himself, letting him know he was free to leave, if he wished. She wouldnot be in the habit of

holding monarchs against their will.

Unfortunately, Mattin was now afraid for his life, should he return. He’d been gone too long, and he

viewed Illian as being in the Dragon Reborn’s pocket. Which it probably was. What a mess.

One problem at a time. Gregorin, the steward in Illian, was very hesitant to support her cause—he

seemed more intimidated by Rand than Darlin was, and the Seanchan were not a distant concern for him.

They were practically pounding on his city gates.

She wrote Gregorin a firm letter, giving a promise like the one she’d given Darlin. Perhaps she could

arrange to keep Mattin away—something both men might want, though she wouldn’t let Gregorin know

that—in exchange for him bringing his armies northward.

1. She let the guy believe Rand is out to get him, which is a lie. But she does nothing to put him straight.

2. She plans to keep him captive, and tells that to the king in Tear, but not to the steward of Illian, to convince them to leave with all their troops and join her against Rand.

3. By keeping him 'safe', she can 'deal' with Rand personally.

[Suttree]

Sierin Vayu was elected after the former Amyrlin died, and I think that if a Warden tried to kill her in his attempt to free a prisoner of the tower, she would have kill him the same way.

 

Siuan's warder tried to kill Elaida?

 

I'm sure he can come up with another plan...lol.

 

To do that he would have to have one in the first place. Somewhat funny that the very thing you accuse the WT of is true of Rand. Egwene has a duty to oppose him until he lays out how he will seal the bore. As has been quoted many times he has no plan and tells Min she needs to find the answer for him.

 

By trying to help/capture him at that time, Elaida was right.

 

I LOLd

 

Egwene wants to do this now, with days before the Last Battle. There's no time for that now.

 

Egwene wants to kidnap Rand on the eve of TG? The Amrylins Anger is a prophecy that has likely already been fulfilled, not some intent on Eggy's part.

 

Elaida also wanted to find the BA, so in a way, she did her duty as an Amyrlin.

 

No that was the AS misunderstanding her intentions.

 

Elaida is mostly an idiot, more victim than villain. To say she had good plans or was a solid Amrylin is laughable to the extreme.

[David Selig]

Siuan and Leane's Warders were killed before they were captured and stilled, in blatant disregard of any law.

 

By trying to help/capture him at that time, Elaida was right. They needed time to see how far gone Rand was with his madness, ask him about the Bore, other plans the AS of the AoL had. Her mistake was sending a BA sister to supervise the whole thing. Egwene wants to do this now, with days before the Last Battle. There's no time for that now.

The Black Ajah sister did exactly what Elaida has ordered her. And Elaida's intention was to keep the Dragon captured and only release him for the final confrontation at Shayol Ghul, which given how many prophesies he was yet to fulfil at this point, was really stupid. She never intended to help him in any way or to allow him any freedom beside letting him die at Shayol Ghul.

 

ACOS, Prologue

 

Inside another week, two at most, al’Thor would be in the Tower, closely supervised and guided safely until Tarmon Gai’don, his ravaging of the world stopped. It was madness to allow any man who could channel to run free, but most of all the man prophecy said must face the Dark One in the Last Battle, the Light send that it lay years off yet in spite of the weather. Years would be needed to arrange the world properly, beginning with undoing what al’Thor had done.

 

Of course, the damage he had wrought was nothing beside what he could have caused, free. Not to mention the possibility that he might have gotten himself killed before he was needed. Well, that troublesome young man would be wrapped in swaddling and kept safe as an infant in his mother’s arms until time to take him to Shayol Ghul. After that, if he survived. . . .

 

As for Mattin: Egwene doesn't plan to keep him captive, your own quote shows it - "She’d also spoken to Mattin himself, letting him know he was free to leave, if he wished. She wouldnot be in the habit of holding monarchs against their will." She's manipulating him to a degree, but that's quite different, and IIRC she has no idea whether Rand would allow Mattin to return in peace to Illian.

 

Elaida also wanted to find the BA, so in a way, she did her duty as an Amyrlin.

Nope, she didn't believe the Black Ajah existed, Seaine misunderstood her orders to mean she wanted to seek out the Blacks, but that was never Elaida's intention.

 

KoD, Prologue:

 

The White Sitter’s composure faded into worry, tightening her mouth and creasing the corners of her eyes. Her hands tightened into fists gripping her shawl. “For us, it is. I’ve just come from answering a summons to Elaida. She wanted to know how I was getting on.” Seaine took a deep breath. “With discovering proof that Alviarin entered a treasonous correspondence with the Dragon Reborn. Really, she was so circumspect in the beginning, so indirect, it’s no wonder I misunderstood what she wanted.”

“I think that fox is walking on my grave,” Yukiri murmured.

Pevara nodded. The notion of approaching Elaida had vanished like summer dew. Their one assurance that Elaida was not herself Black Ajah had been that she instigated the hunt for them, but since she had done no such thing. . . .

[Xcorpyo001]

Sierin Vayu was elected after the former Amyrlin died, and I think that if a Warden tried to kill her in his attempt to free a prisoner of the tower, she would have kill him the same way.

 

Siuan's warder tried to kill Elaida?

 

I'm sure he can come up with another plan...lol.

 

To do that he would have to have one in the first place. Somewhat funny that the very thing you accuse the WT of is true of Rand. Egwene has a duty to oppose him until he lays out how he will seal the bore. As has been quoted many times he has no plan and tells Min she needs to find the answer for him.

 

By trying to help/capture him at that time, Elaida was right.

 

I LOLd

 

Egwene wants to do this now, with days before the Last Battle. There's no time for that now.

 

Egwene wants to kidnap Rand on the eve of TG? The Amrylins Anger is a prophecy that has likely already been fulfilled, not some intent on Eggy's part.

 

Elaida also wanted to find the BA, so in a way, she did her duty as an Amyrlin.

 

No that was the AS misunderstanding her intentions.

 

Elaida is mostly an idiot, more victim than villain. To say she had good plans or was a solid Amrylin is laughable to the extreme.

 

Siuan's warder tried to free/protect her, even if Elaida&co had legal right to detain her...a vote of the Hall.

 

Egwene has no 'duty' to oppose anyone. Somehow the WT got to their head that they are the best suited to lead the Last Battle and handle the DR. There is no prophecy about that. Rand is the only one that knows best what to do. And is led by the Pattern, not by the AS.

Or Egwene/Elaida is the White Tower and the Pattern itself? Maybe that will explain the fact that they seem to be absolutely sure the AS and the Tower must be the only ones to decide what to do in the Last Battle.

 

 

She was right from her point of view, not right right. They needed time to sort things out.

Egwene has a lot more info about Rand, but she still thinks he's crazy, or that he has to be controled by the WT/AS, so they have the same idea. Let's see how Egwene will act on it.

 

 

likely happened is not 100% sure it happened. And she did said that she'll do everything it takes to stop him, if she can't force him to see reason.

 

 

EDIT: can't believe I'm trying to defend Elaida of all people. Even I usually see a lost battle.

She was a bad Amyrlin, but not the worse. And not really evil, just misguided, idiotic at times, and with a very good opinion about herself.

[Elan Tedronai]

Let's see. You stroll into the seat of Aes Sedai power, calmly tell their commander that you are going to break the seals and start world war 3 and when asked about planning before taking such an action you simply smile and walk away.

 

Talking the saying ' hope for the best' a little to extreme there. It seems that after 3000 years and his time in AOL, lews therin telamon, the greatest man of his age, the dragon still cannot figure out a way to seal the bore.

 

But he can't wait to smash the seals. bravo.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Elaida is a writing failure. She fails to be either a victim or a villain and becomes instead a caricature of both.

[Xcorpyo001]

Let's see. You stroll into the seat of Aes Sedai power, calmly tell their commander that you are going to break the seals and start world war 3 and when asked about planning before taking such an action you simply smile and walk away.

 

Talking the saying ' hope for the best' a little to extreme there. It seems that after 3000 years and his time in AOL, lews therin telamon, the greatest man of his age, the dragon still cannot figure out a way to seal the bore.

 

But he can't wait to smash the seals. bravo.

 

 

Are you talking about the part about Egwene wanting to control him, just as Elaida?

If so, let me start by saying that he does have a plan to seal the Bore, but he wants a better one.

He didn't just told them he will break the seals and end of story. He said that is just one step.

And breaking the seals is not the end of the world. The Bore stood open for a century, and they still managed to seal it. Well, LTT did it, with an incomplete plan, because the female AS, probably led by a darkfriend, didn't wanted to help him, and wanted to just wait it out, with months/weeks before complete defeat. But I digress.

Maybe his plan will work if the women and men link, while he uses Callandor to duke it out with the DO.

 

 

As to what he said to Egwene, and some of her thoughts:

 

From what she had heard of Rand recently, she had not anticipated such calm in him. Perhaps it was the

calm of the criminal who had finally given himself up

She seems to believe a lot of stupid rumors, and sees him as a criminal. Nyn's explanation that he changed just washed away. She was taverened, after all. A very Elaidish view of Rand.

 

There was a formality to his words that she didn’t recognize. In another man, she

would have assumed a cultured, educated background. But Rand didn’t have that

consider him a idiotic peasant, just like Elaida - check. I think she forgot they both have the same background. And Rand actually had better advisers, and the experience of a 400+ years former Tamyrlin.

 

 

Egwene frowned. The Dragon Reborn had come to the White Tower to engage in idle philosophy?

Perhaps hehad gone mad. “Rand,” Egwene said, softening her tone. “I’m going to have some sisters talk

to you to decide if there is anything…wrong with you. Please try to understand.”

-philosophy from Rand the shepherd?!? Truly he is mad.

 

 

Once they knew more about his state, they could decide what to do with him. The Dragon Reborn did

need freedom to do as the prophecies said he would, but could they simply let him roam away, now that

they had him?

Of course Elaida was wrong to try to keep him leashed, but how can she let him free now that she 'has him'?!?

 

 

“I am both, Egwene. I remember him. Lews Therin. I can see his entire life, every desperate

moment. I see it like a dream, but a clear dream. My own dream. It’s part of me.”

The words were those of a madman

He tells her he has all the memories of the guy who saw and sealed the Bore. Mad, I tell you.“

 

You must know what

my plans are so that you can prepare.

 

In one month’s time,” Rand said, “I’m going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals

on the Dark One’s prison. I want your help.”

 

“The last time I tried to seal the Bore, I was forced to do it without the help of the women. That was

part of what led to disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength. Well, blame must

be spread evenly, but I will not make the same mistakes a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar

must both be used. I don’t have the answers yet.”

 

 

“I’m going to need you, all of you,” he continued. “I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me

your support. I want you to meet with me on the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then…well, then

we will discuss my terms.”

 

“A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be

sealed.”

 

“That is why I came to you. To let you plan.”

I think he said more than 'I'll break the seal and free the DO and just watch a WW unfold'

 

“We need allies,” Egwene said. She took a deep breath. “He might be persuaded by people that he

trusts.” Or he might be forced to change his mind...

My way or the highway. Again, a very Elaidish move on her part.

 

 

Many say that Elaida was a bad/evil Amyrlin because she dismissed rumors because she just thought they were fake, and didn't listened to her advisers, and bla bla bla. Well, even a good Amyrlin like Egwene is prone to the same mistakes. Especially by trying to copy Eliada's plan to deal with Rand.

 

Thinking that she always knows best because she's Amyrlin is a mistake, but a very common one.

[balefired-ed2]

And so another thread gets highjacked. I dislike Egwene as much as the next Egwene hater, but can this thread not be about her? Elaida is the subject at hand, and I'm sure that there are probably multiple Egwene threads on the front page.

[Apple13]

I think Elaida was both a villain and a victim, but I don't really have any sympathy for her. She brought all of it upon herself, because of her own selfishness and stupidity. She may have been trying to work towards the "good" (or her version of it), but what she really wanted was power and to be the Amyrlin Seat instead of Siuan. Not to mention all of her colossal failures like trying to capture Rand, and disbanding the Blue Ajah.

[Elan Tedronai]

aiel blademaster,

 

i hate to get dragged into the same old issues. this whole thing has been discussed to death and frankly at this point i couldnt care less about retreading old issues.

 

Only i will say this. Calling latra a darkfriend is the funniest thing i have read on these forums. And that's saying something.

[Xcorpyo001]

aiel blademaster,

 

i hate to get dragged into the same old issues. this whole thing has been discussed to death and frankly at this point i couldnt care less about retreading old issues.

 

Only i will say this. Calling latra a darkfriend is the funniest thing i have read on these forums. And that's saying something.

 

 

I'm a very funny man, on occasion.

About Latra, I must admit I read the old thread about her plan and actions, and there are some points that were not touched in there, but I din't wanted to revive an old thread.

But Latra was another woman with a lot of power, and her action brought the world on the brink of destruction, even if she thought she was doing the right thing. Elaida also believed the same thing, but her actions almost brought the entire WT down.

 

About bringing Egwene in this, sorry. I just did it to show that Elaida was not the only Amyrlin to try to control Rand, or not understand him clearly. And Egwene is the best Amyrlin in a thousand years or so.

For the rest of her errors, I'll try to use other examples, but unfortunately there aren't a lot of Amyrlins that we know a lot about.

[Suttree]

Are you talking about the part about Egwene wanting to control him, just as Elaida?

If so, let me start by saying that he does have a plan to seal the Bore, but he wants a better one.

He didn't just told them he will break the seals and end of story. He said that is just one step.

And breaking the seals is not the end of the world. The Bore stood open for a century, and they still managed to seal it. Well, LTT did it, with an incomplete plan, because the female AS, probably led by a darkfriend, didn't wanted to help him, and wanted to just wait it out, with months/weeks before complete defeat. But I digress.

Maybe his plan will work if the women and men link, while he uses Callandor to duke it out with the DO.

 

Per RJ the plan was flawed.

The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

 

Saidar would have been tainted as well if it had been used which would have completed the Breaking in totality. Rand has no plan and has admitted such.

 

ToM

You have to to find out how. I can not seal the bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

Lastly there is zero evidence anywhere showing LPD to be a DF. She is perhaps the greatest heroe of the breaking and one of the main reasons the world survived until today. I must say though it is fun sometimes when people throw around crazy theories like this. Things have been a bit boring without the likes of Dida and Crazy Mike around.

 

From what she had heard of Rand recently, she had not anticipated such calm in him. Perhaps it was the

calm of the criminal who had finally given himself up

She seems to believe a lot of stupid rumors, and sees him as a criminal. Nyn's explanation that he changed just washed away. She was taverened, after all. A very Elaidish view of Rand.

 

She has not spoken to Nyanaeve about him at this point. She is perfectly correct to believe the things she has heard with how dark he gets. Also note she isn't necessarily calling him a criminal, he has been through a ton and she is using an analogy to describe his mental state.

 

 

There was a formality to his words that she didn’t recognize. In another man, she

would have assumed a cultured, educated background. But Rand didn’t have that

consider him a idiotic peasant, just like Elaida - check. I think she forgot they both have the same background. And Rand actually had better advisers, and the experience of a 400+ years former Tamyrlin.

 

Why use hyperbole when that isn't even close to what she thinks. All she notices is the changes from the LTT influence, she is merely stating the truth of where they come from and how his mannerisms have changed.

 

Egwene frowned. The Dragon Reborn had come to the White Tower to engage in idle philosophy?

Perhaps hehad gone mad. “Rand,” Egwene said, softening her tone. “I’m going to have some sisters talk

to you to decide if there is anything…wrong with you. Please try to understand.”

-philosophy from Rand the shepherd?!? Truly he is mad.

 

She knows him fairly well and has never seen him behave like that. He shows up with a totally diff personality and thought process then the one she grew up with and that shouldn't make her wonder? She is acting out of concern and has every right to think him mad based on his actions. You are the first person pro or anti Rand I have seen on the forums that has questioned her being right in worrying about his mental health at this stage of the story.

 

“I am both, Egwene. I remember him. Lews Therin. I can see his entire life, every desperate

moment. I see it like a dream, but a clear dream. My own dream. It’s part of me.”

The words were those of a madman

He tells her he has all the memories of the guy who saw and sealed the Bore. Mad, I tell you.“

 

Yes to someone who isn't privy to what the reader knows about his VoG moment it is, just as Semi explained to us with her superior knowledge from the AoL, insane to have a past life's memories in your head.

 

KoD "A Plain Wooden Box"

"He's Insane," she said coolly..."Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty..."

[Lisa Campbell]

Can't wait until Egwene meets Cadsuane and learns what has really been going on with Rand. Sorilea will back Cadsuane which will lend weight to the argument. But I think Elaida is a monumental dupe, so I'm voting abused victim.

[Xcorpyo001]

..........................................

 

K, maybe I need to touch that part with the plan a little. And LPD and her actions.

 

First, the female vs men split up in the Hall of servants.

 

Lews Therin argued again for his plan, acknowledging the risks but saying that was now the only chance, yet Posae maintained her opposition. Belief in the danger of misplacing the seals had spread, and many more female Aes Sedai had pledged to the “Fateful Concord,” including a great number who were nowhere near strong enough to qualify for the raiding party circle. Tempers and passions rose, and an apparently unprecedented division along male-female lines began to develop among the Aes Sedai in general, if not within the Hall itself

 

.....................................

 

With Latra Posae’s opposition continuing in the face of these events (4), and the female Aes Sedai holding to their pledge and thus making use of a circle impossible (the lines of division had hardened to a point where many female Aes Sedai refused to speak to male Aes Sedai, and the reverse as well)

 

Now, a word about this. At the end, female and male channelers were so opposed, that they didn't even talked with each other, there was a lot of distrust in the Hall, and at the same time, the Forsaken began a last push, and the Light was on the brink of defeat(months at best).

 

I think the huge successes the DO's armies had in the last year or so were directly connected with the dissension in the Hall. By creating a division between male and female, they just sabotaged their own strength, by limiting the use of circles.

 

They stopped making circles in battle!. I can remember from the first books that they said two women linked can match a man, and a man and a woman in a circle can be ten times as powerful as apart. Don't know if that ratio changed much from that time, but I can't remember later ratios mentioned in the last books.

Since there was a lot of mistrust between men and women, the use of circles diminished drastically, and the forces of the Dark managed to gain the upper hand, even if technically, the numbers were the same.

By creating the Fateful Concord, LPD&co diminished the Light's forces fighting power by several times, and dug their own graves without even knowing.

 

 

About the plans.

 

I. LTT.

Risks:

-the DO will sense channeling and attack them once they start fighting

-LTT admited himself that many, if not all the men and women containing the raiding party will probably die even if the succeed.(more than half of the channelers that went there survived, unfortunately)

-if the seals were not placed with exact precision, the resulting strain would, instead of sealing up the Bore, rip it open, freeing the Dark One completely

-As precise placement of the seals was widely thought to require a circle, that apparently killed the plan, since men cannot create a circle, but can only be brought into one created by women

This has proven to be wrong, because LTT and the men managed to fix the seals perfectly, without a circle.

 

LPD was thinking that the plan is prone to failure, even with 20k soldiers and a circle of women and men, to be powerful enough to keep the DO shiled long enough so they can place the seals correctly. LTT proved her wrong by doing it with only 10k soldiers and no circle. With help from the women, maybe things would have been different.

 

Unforeseen risk: the Taint. But we don't know if a shield raise by a strong circle can protect against that.

 

 

II. LPD and the sa’angreal

Risks:

-the sa’angreal were planned to be so powerful that either one might well provide enough of the One Power to destroy the world, while both together certainly would.

Not very safe, if you ask me.

-Some doubted that so much of the One Power could be handled safely under the circumstances

The women had no plan to actually seal the Bore, just to prolong the inevitable. They were hoping they would come with a plan later, maybe even after the DO was free, but encircled in a shield. But in order to put the plan in motion, they probably had to lower the shield(if it keeps thing in, it also keeps them out)

 

And some unforeseen dangers.

Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa’angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?

 

Now, according to their plan, all they could do was to erect a barrier around a increasing bore, and keep the DO trapped there, even if he escapes, until they find some way to deal with him.

Let the DO escape? How would they manage to keep him locked after that? They didn't even knew if any shield was able to hold him after he was released.

Letting the Bore increase its size inside the shield? Smart move.

If they put the shield around the Bore, the DO would be able to touch the shield, and saidin and saidar both would have been tainted(unknown at the time)

 

Now, if the shield can't hold off the taint, both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

If the shield can keep off the taint, then a circle of the most powerful AS could have kept the taint at bay, at least long enough to place the seals, so LTT's plan would have been a complete success as well.

 

AS users. Not many AS were powerful enough to use the things in the first place.

 

We saw in the cleansing of the saidin that only two can use the keys at one time, and they can do it only for maximum a day. Now, if let's say the shield is on, the Bore(or a freed DO) is forcing it's way out, and they have to replace the AS using the keys, they have to actually break the circle(and lose the shield), and start another circle again.

 

Maybe they can tie up the shield, and not control it all the times? The size of that will make this impossible, not to mention the fact that the DO can break it at any time, so they have to maintain it at any hour.

If X makes a weave, Y can't use it(or else every AS held with air could cancel the wave...they have to cut it). So each team must start the shield from scratch. Even a second will be enough for the Bore to expand beyond the last circle(and in time became large enough that even the keys won't be able to create a shield large enough), or for a free DO to just walk out of there.

 

 

And they were voting for this plan with weeks before total defeat. With no plan to seal the thing, only to hold it. Maybe they thought the Forsaken will just let them alone.

 

Plan failure in the final stage. Tey lost both the statues and the keys.

 

Almost immediately on the heels of Sammael’s advance, armies commanded by Demandred and Bel’al struck heavily. At this point in the war, halting an advance by the Shadow was the best that could be hoped for; no conquered territory had been regained in the past two years. In intense and bloody fighting, these two drives were barely contained, but Demandred and Bel’al kept the pressure on. Sammael began a new offensive, also scarcely held, and there is mention of heavy military activity elsewhere. Apparently both of the great sa’angreal were threatened by these offensives; in fact, it was possible that they were the target. Massive riots swept a number of cities still held by the Light and the “re-emergence of the peace faction” is mentioned, apparently a group demanding negotiations with the Forsaken. The final defeat was at hand; the will of the people to resist was fading, and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months.

 

 

So, more holes in LPD's plan:

-they lost the weapon itself

-the Forsaken found out about it and they were looking for it themselves

-they didn't had the time to make another plan

With each second they lost without doing something, anything, they risked the Forsaken finding the weapon(they were looking for it in lands they controlled). Each retrieval attempt had the risk of soldiers being taken captive, interrogated, and the exact location discovered

-they were weeks away from defeat, and they didn't aided in the only plan they had(bad or good).

 

 

Finally, about her DF status.

Most of those who say that she fought with the good guys after the DO was sealed seem to forget some facts:

-DF want power. Some want even to defeat the DO if possible and have it all for herself(see Lanfear)

-the DO was sealed, with the entire leadership of the Dark forces

-the DF, dreadlords and shadowspawn were defeated in a matter of months. Declaring herself DF at that time would have been insane, and a suicide of sorts.

 

Now, if she was a DF(I'm not sure she is, but there is the possibility), and she saw the DO+Forsaken sealed, the forces of the Light winning the fight, do you really think she would have told everybody that she was a DF, and die with the rest of them?

Or remain on the Light side, where she became the most powerful woman in the wold, as the leader of the female channelers?

Of course, nobody knew at the time how hard it will be to defeat the male channellers, but if she succeded she would be the ruler of the world, without even having to kiss the DO's behind.

Any DF/Forsaken would have done the same. It's Lanfear's dream come true.

 

[/end rant]

 

PS: Dida and Crazy Mike sound like some nice guys. Too bad I've missed them. I always like people who fight for lost causes, just like me. It's a lot more fun this way.

 

 

You see, even the action of a war her as LPD had dire repercussions on the war effort. Elaida's failures are just like comparing the heat of a candle to that of molted lava.

lol, I can't help myself. Molten lava. Phaw.

Don't you think that even Crazy Mike seems a very thoughtful person at the moment? I apologize in advance if the guy was thoughtful and his theories seemed crazy only from your pov.

[Lisa Campbell]

Firstly it seems logical that women who could channel would not want to participate in LTT's plan which was a huge risk. Maybe if the women were involved the odds would have been lessened but it is still long odds.

 

Afterwards, no woman in her right mind would have wanted to be involved.

 

I think it is telling that during the cleansing, Rand and Nynaeve barely made it through and the key to the female statue was unuseable after so I think that Latra was right to prohibit the use of them on the Dark One. The repercussions would have been worse.

 

I'd guess that Latra knew that LTT would come up with something to allay the Dark One. That was her ultimate plan really. To hold him off in the most effective manner until someone came up with a plan to contain him on a long term basis.

 

If there was any foretelling involved, then this has to be the best outcome. Sure Saidin was tainted but because of that, Rand has half a clue in how to contain the Dark One on a longer lease. I'd like to say more permament but the Wheel won't allow that.

[Suttree]

...

 

Have to say I'm pretty impressed by the effort. Not sure why you chose to focus on this when the LPD part was almost a throwaway line but here we go.

 

The problem is you make so many assumptions and ignore direct quotes from RJ and Rand. RJ didn't say if they had a strong circle it would have protected them from the taint. He says very clearly it was a "lucky" thing the women didn't join as Saidar would have been tainted too. Rand says he "I can not seal the bore the way I tried last time." so he knows the plan was flawed as well.

 

In terms of LPD's plan we have no idea how the taint mechanism works so it is a huge assumption to say if the DO gets free behind the barrier, he might be able to taint both sides of the power. Also you contradict yourself when providing times, saying they were voting for this with "weeks" to go before the end. The quote you provide below that says "and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months." So first the offensives need to take time to break through and then the end would take "months", either way they have far more time than mere "weeks" to continue planning.

 

The LPD as a DF is fun though, no real basis for it but it is still cool to think about. BTW you don't come across as crazy, search for old posts by Dida and Crazy Mike(his handle) if you truly want to see some wild stuff.

 

The bottom line is while you pile multiple assumptions that lead to false conclusions creating "what if" scenarios with no basis in the text, we really don't have to go beyond RJ's and Rand's quotes. They shut down your argument before it even starts.

[Xcorpyo001]

...

 

Have to say I'm pretty impressed by the effort. Not sure why you chose to focus on this when the LPD part was almost a throwaway line but here we go.

 

The problem is you make so many assumptions and ignore direct quotes from RJ and Rand. RJ didn't say if they had a strong circle it would have protected them from the taint. He says very clearly it was a "lucky" thing the women didn't join as Saidar would have been tainted too. Rand says he "I can not seal the bore the way I tried last time." so he knows the plan was flawed as well.

 

In terms of LPD's plan we have no idea how the taint mechanism works so it is a huge assumption to say if the DO gets free behind the barrier, he might be able to taint both sides of the power. Also you contradict yourself when providing times, saying they were voting for this with "weeks" to go before the end. The quote you provide below that says "and should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months." So first the offensives need to take time to break through and then the end would take "months", either way they have far more time than mere "weeks" to continue planning.

 

The LPD as a DF is fun though, no real basis for it but it is still cool to think about. BTW you don't come across as crazy, search for old posts by Dida and Crazy Mike(his handle) if you truly want to see some wild stuff.

 

The bottom line is while you pile multiple assumptions that lead to false conclusions creating "what if" scenarios with no basis in the text, we really don't have to go beyond RJ's and Rand's quotes. They shut down your argument before it even starts.

 

 

About Rand's quote. Yes, he must do something different, this time also including women.

About RJ's quote. Yes it was a lucky thing they didn't took women, but it was also lucky they didn't use the keys, because that shield used both saidin and saidar.

 

And the plan conceived by the women seems to be even more dangerous than the one the men wanted to follow. To just let the Bore increase size for an unknown amount of time, or even let the DO escape inside the shield and hope it will hold. That is a bold plan, indeed.

 

About the length of the war. It could have been months, even a year(not very likely), or just hours if the Chosen found the keys(they were looking for them, after all). A plan, any plan, was the logical solution then.

 

About Elaida. I'm on another re-read, and I just started Fires of Heaven. And we see her during a meeting with her council. She's not that bad, especially since she's a Red. She wants to reunite and strengthen the tower, find Rand, bring Bashere back to protect the Borderlands, put an invisible leash on Tenobia(but that is a WT policy, so she's not overstepping her position yet.)

Later, she'll send some AS to take some kings under her 'protection', but the rebel AS, especially Siuan, also keep Elayne against her will, to 'protect' her from Rand, so he can't use her to gain power. Again, no difference, other than the rebel AS don't have any legal status at that time.

The Children want to help with peace talks between two countries(for their own reasons, of course), so she plans to derail those plans, and step to try to calm things, having the WT as savior. Again, done in the past(and present), so she's not in villain mode yet, just AS.

 

I have a question about the power of the Amyrlin, and the real power of the position.

I think we will be in a better position to rate her decisions if we know what is the limit of what a Amyrlin/AS can do:

-we know that the Amyrlin can summon any leader to the WT, and if she visits a place, she can do anything she likes there. 'Fal Dara is yours, mother'

-we also know that every country pays tribute to the WT

-we know that the WT has no problem betraying entire nations(Manetheren), destroying empires(Artur Hawkwing's Empire) and plunging the entire world in over 100 years of constant war, delay help in some cases(Malkier), killing a Prince consort of the Borderlands(a hero just like Lan) and his son, among other people, and covering up the whole thing as if it never happened, being able to control the troops of the Borderlands(first book, the captain wanted to ride with Moiraine and leave his king to fight alone at Tarwin's Gap), the AS are respected/feared anywhere and nobody is crazy enough to argue/fight with them, they can beat up/kidnap lords and kings, without any repercussions, etc.

 

What is the limit?

Is the Amyrlin the 'Empress' of Randland, or her position is just as an advisor, and all their 'liberties' developed over the years, because nobody tried to stop them from taking control(or if they did, they were never seen again).

Is Elaida's decision to kidnap kings a bad thing or something the WT can do as it pleases?

Can the Amyrlin go and just slap people around as she pleases, even kings, or are there some limits somewhere?

And what are the duties of the AS, in exchange of this liberty they seem to have?

Do they have to help other countries, like the Borderlands, if they are overrun by Trollocs, or they can just sit and watch?

[Ernmore]

OK, Elaida is a power hungry tyrant, have you ever met a tyrant that wasn't a villian. She controls with an iron fist, punishing those that don't agree with her and builds her own palace, while neglecting the very city and people she is responsible for. Irregardless of what else she has done these things were done only at her whim. This makes her a tyrant IMHO, and no matter what the intentions all tyrants become villians no matter how they start out. "Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutly"

[Suttree]

-we know that the Amyrlin can summon any leader to the WT, and if she visits a place, she can do anything she likes there. 'Fal Dara is yours, mother'

 

The summoning part is true, as for doing whatever she likes. May be true in places like the Borderlands, certainly not true in Amadacia or Tear.

 

-we also know that every country pays tribute to the WT

 

Borderland nations yes, other countries most certainly do not.

 

-we know that the WT has no problem betraying entire nations(Manetheren),

 

Hardly the WT, the Sitters did not know. This was the work of Tetsuan(who was punished for it) and at most a small inner circle a la Elaida.

 

destroying empires(Artur Hawkwing's Empire) and plunging the entire world in over 100 years of constant war,

 

Actually that was Ishy in the guise of Jalwin Moerad. Despite disagreements with the tower Artur had AS advisors for the vast majority of his reign. Ishy poisoned him against AS(he even refused healing do to this), had him lay siege to Tar Valon, claimed responsibility for his most extreme actions and brags about "sealing dooms". With Hawkwings childrens scattered due to Ishy, when Hawkwing died the 100 year war ensued. It actually started with Ishara breaking away to create Andor. It had zero to do with AS.

 

 

delay help in some cases(Malkier), killing a Prince consort of the Borderlands(a hero just like Lan) and his son, among other people, and covering up the whole thing as if it never happened,

 

Don't even know what to say about this, if I may ask what made you come to these assumptions? If I hadn't seen a bunch of your good posts I would think you were trolling. The AS killed no one. Malkier's problems started with two DFs Cowin Gemallan and Breyan Mandragoran. They plotted to overthrow the Seven Towers sending Breyan's husband Lain into the blight with a large force. Lain was killed in the blight and with Malkier weakened a huge trolloc force struck overrunning it. Isam was then captured by trollocs while his DF mother was attempting to escape. The entire thing is on her and Cowin. Meanwhile the AS didn't know travelling so couldn't get there in time to help Malkier, what they covered up was their inability to send aid, nothing more.

 

On a diff note, for people that have an issue with the current Borderland situation and the AS response. We know that Eggy is gathering intelligence, I would like to provide a quote from one of the Great Captains that sheds some light on this.

 

TGS

Ituralde would have traded ten thousand soldiers for one of those flying beasts. Other commanders might have wanted the damane, with their ability to throw lightnings and cause the earth to heave, but battles—like wars—were won by information as often as they were by weapons.

 

There you have it, Eggy is using the Blue Network to better assess how to deal with the BL situation. She is gathering intelligence, according to Ituralde this is the way wars are won. Not sure how some blind knee jerk AS reaction would be any better?

[Xcorpyo001]

@Sutree.

About Manetheren. She couldn't have done it by herself, she had help(close circle perhaps), but she was the only one punished for it.

 

 

About killing a prince consort(the hero guy) and his son, and covering up the whole affair, I was talking about Brys and Diryk, cover up done by Moiraine in New Spring. Maybe she should tell as few people as possible about the BA, but she didn't even tells his wife(the queen).

Keeping the BA a secret was a bad thing. They could decapitate the leadership of the entire Randland in one strike. They are very lucky the BA+Forsaken can't seem to think straight and use plans that could actually work.

 

 

And about Hawkins. It wasn't only Ishy's fault. Bonwhin Meraighdin started the whole thing.

She was raised from the Red Ajah in FY 939, the same year as Guaire Amalasan declared himself as the Dragon Reborn

Her attempt at controlling Artur Hawkwing led to a nineteen-year-long siege of Tar Valon. Bonwhin was removed from power and replaced with Deane Aryman from the Blue Ajah. She was the last Amyrlin to be raised from the Red before Elaida.

 

When she saw that Hawkins was close to rule the world, she tried to control him, and failed. So he turned his attention on the WT. Ishy just pushed his buttons a little about it, but the Amyrlin started it.

Maybe without that red Amyrlin, Hawkins could just rule the entire Randland and keep the peace for 1000 years. But that would minimize the power of the WT. Better 100 years of fighting after his death and 1000 years of chaos until the present day.

At least nobody forgot her, even if she remains an black mark in the 13th depository.

 

 

EDIT: forgot about the spy thing.

Since they have Travel, spy networks are outdated, at least for battle reports.

They can wait days/weeks to send/receive a letter with reports/rumors, or they can send some AS via Travelling in a couple of minutes, and have first hand reports from a better observer. Even do something about it if needed.

Spyes can be useful in other areas, for covert missions and secret assignments, but for a simple report about the condition of the forts, Travel is the perfect, but unused method.

 

Ithuralde sends an Asha'man each day from Maradon, even if he doesn't have anything to report. With 4 Asha'man, Rand can have a clear picture of all the Borderlands regions on a daily basis. Not waiting for weeks for a pigeon that will always have outdated information.

But the WT will have a lot of time to work that out after the Last Battle.

[Suttree]

And about Hawkins. It wasn't only Ishy's fault. Bonwhin Meraighdin started the whole thing.

She was raised from the Red Ajah in FY 939, the same year as Guaire Amalasan declared himself as the Dragon Reborn

Her attempt at controlling Artur Hawkwing led to a nineteen-year-long siege of Tar Valon. Bonwhin was removed from power and replaced with Deane Aryman from the Blue Ajah. She was the last Amyrlin to be raised from the Red before Elaida.

 

Bonwhin does bear some responsibility in their disagreement over his army getting too close to Tar Valon true but that isn't what you said.

 

destroying empires(Artur Hawkwing's Empire) and plunging the entire world in over 100 years of constant war,

 

There were over fourty years from the time Bonwhin had issue with Hawkwing until Ishy's moves started to pull apart his reign. It wasn't until Ishy showed up in 973 that things started really going wrong. He forced out Hawkwings AS advisors in 974 and all the large blunders and extreme moves leading to the Empire falling apart happened during this time.