The Seals

[Hybrid]

^^^ Domon and Bashere had discs and were pursued by DFs for them.

 

I think that might be the deal with the discs. A half-sealed bore doesn't do much of anything. But if the Shadow goes ahead and gets rid of everyone who has any chance of plugging the hole before busting it open again.

Pretty sure you're talking about Lord Dobraine here...

 

Domon had a seal. It was on his boat and he gave it to... somebody. The Seanchan wanted it. Did Dobraine have one? I can't remember much of what he did... he's barely popped up so far in my re-read.

 

Domon's was confiscated by Turak. It was later found broken by Moiraine. (TGH)

 

We don't know that Dobraine had a seal. At that point, all the seals had been accounted for, so it would have to have been given to him for safekeeping. The Shadow, however, seemed to think that he did, given the robbery attempt that almost resulted in his death. (COT)

[Mats Spare Hat]

You sense the Dark One's touch through a breaking down Seal, because the Seal is breaking down - not because the Dark One caused the Seal to become broken down in the first place.

 

Fill a water balloon with water. Poke a hole in it. You can feel the water coming out, but the water didn't cause the hole.

 

Water pressure can poke holes in dams, though.

 

 

Dude, it was a simple analogy - Not a examination into fluid dynamics. Regardless, from what we see, nothing can destroy Cuendillar, which I suppose in this case takes the role of your dam. The Dark One can be the water.

 

Ergo, being that nothing can destroy Cuendillar, not the One Power, and not the True Power - the very power of the Dark One. Rand is the one responsible for the dam/seals breaking down, and being completely broken.

 

The Pattern wants the Dragon to face the Dark One, in order to 'win' the game. The Dark One cannot break himself free. In order for the Dragon to face the Dark One, the Seals must be broken. Thus, the Dragon will break the Seals.

 

____

 

If it all boils down to the contrary come AMoL, I will eat my words.

[FarShainMael]

Yes, that was what I had in mind.

[Luckers]

You sense the Dark One's touch through a breaking down Seal, because the Seal is breaking down - not because the Dark One caused the Seal to become broken down in the first place.

 

Fill a water balloon with water. Poke a hole in it. You can feel the water coming out, but the water didn't cause the hole.

 

Water pressure can poke holes in dams, though.

 

 

Dude, it was a simple analogy - Not a examination into fluid dynamics. Regardless, from what we see, nothing can destroy Cuendillar, which I suppose in this case takes the role of your dam. The Dark One can be the water.

 

Ergo, being that nothing can destroy Cuendillar, not the One Power, and not the True Power - the very power of the Dark One. Rand is the one responsible for the dam/seals breaking down, and being completely broken.

 

The Pattern wants the Dragon to face the Dark One, in order to 'win' the game. The Dark One cannot break himself free. In order for the Dragon to face the Dark One, the Seals must be broken. Thus, the Dragon will break the Seals.

 

____

 

If it all boils down to the contrary come AMoL, I will eat my words.

 

Quick note, Brandon stated there are two things which can destroy cuendillar.

[MasterAblar]

Wasn't the domination band made of cuendillar or is that just my imagination? If so, then didn't Rand destroy it with true power balefire?

[nolirion]

I have wondered If Ishamael status during the confrontation near the discovery of seal had a link with their status .

[Turin Turambar]

I think Mat's idea makes sense. The seals are breaking in response to Rand becoing more ready to face the DO at TG. It seems too coincidental otherwise. If it was the DO just randomly breaking seals why is it always the seal that is closest in space and time to the occurance?

[Kahsm]

You sense the Dark One's touch through a breaking down Seal, because the Seal is breaking down - not because the Dark One caused the Seal to become broken down in the first place.

 

Fill a water balloon with water. Poke a hole in it. You can feel the water coming out, but the water didn't cause the hole.

 

Water pressure can poke holes in dams, though.

 

 

Dude, it was a simple analogy - Not a examination into fluid dynamics. Regardless, from what we see, nothing can destroy Cuendillar, which I suppose in this case takes the role of your dam. The Dark One can be the water.

 

Ergo, being that nothing can destroy Cuendillar, not the One Power, and not the True Power - the very power of the Dark One. Rand is the one responsible for the dam/seals breaking down, and being completely broken.

 

The Pattern wants the Dragon to face the Dark One, in order to 'win' the game. The Dark One cannot break himself free. In order for the Dragon to face the Dark One, the Seals must be broken. Thus, the Dragon will break the Seals.

 

____

 

If it all boils down to the contrary come AMoL, I will eat my words.

 

Quick note, Brandon stated there are two things which can destroy cuendillar.

 

Also note. Since the Cuendillar discs are just focal points, it seems possible that it's not the Cuendillar that's being "broken" at all. But they are linked to the actual, more abstract "seals". I assume those made of Saidin, and the DO would be quite capable of breaking that down over time. The Cuendillar discs are just linked to the state of those seals.

 

I base this off the fact that the seal at tEotW was already broken, but Lan still managed to break a knife blade off it. So it broke before it was really all that fragile.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I think Mat's idea makes sense. The seals are breaking in response to Rand becoing more ready to face the DO at TG. It seems too coincidental otherwise. If it was the DO just randomly breaking seals why is it always the seal that is closest in space and time to the occurance?

 

It's not always the Seal disk that's the closest in space & time - Nynaeve, et al. were on the road to Salidar, on the whole other side of Randland, when the occurrence of Rand, the Aiel, and Cairhein happened, in that particular place

 

...That's what leads to the idea that it doesn't matter who has the Seals, or where they are in the world. They'll break & break down only due to what Rand does, what Rand's doing, even those events, and corresponding Seal disks are miles and miles apart.

 

____

 

So what's the sense of even having the Seal disks anyway, if that's the case? Here's whats up. The Seal Disks serve as indicators. For instance, it always tickled my brain as to why one of the Amyrlin Seats titles was 'watcher of the seals' ...Bear with me, it's a little on the simple/dumb side, but that's okay even if it is - The Amyrlin, under ideal circumstances (though we know they aren't), would have the Seals(disks) in her possession, and thus would be in prime position to know that yo, TG is right around the corner. The Dragon's on his way, and it's time to rally/plan on saving the world...because whether or not people like them as characters or not, that's the role of the Aes Sedai.

 

Seals = Can only be broken by Rand

Seal Disks = Early warning system

[Roxinos]

1. Rand consciously controls Saidin for the first time at the Eye of the World - thus avoiding the lethality of sparkers.

 

The lethality of people with the sparks comes from their first few times unconsciously channeling the One Power. Rand encountered this potential lethality after breaking him and Mat out of an inn using lightning. The "lethality" comes in the form of the channeling sickness, which many do not survive. Rand went through the sickness shortly after the aforementioned lightning event and survived it.

 

Also, Rand did not consciously channel at the Eye. He accidentally pulled upon the Eye in imitation of Aginor, and could not control it. The things he does while channeling are incidental results of unconscious will in the same way that the earthquake he causes in the beginning of the third book is also the effect of his unconscious will. (But that same scene also marks his first, if I recall correctly, conscious attempt to take hold of the Power.)

 

My question is why Jordan ignored the plot device of the White and Brown Ajahs and introduced Herid Fel to determine the metaphysical actions required.

 

Because the Aes Sedai are useless. And (speculation) no Aes Sedai would want to study something so close to the Shadow.

[mackoY-kun]

After the last of the "broken seals" was broken with Nynaeve and Elayne on their way to Salidar, a lot of other "prophetic" events have come to pass.

Cleansing of Saidin; "He will heal "wounds of madness".

VoG event; Essanik Cycle in the tGS after the Epilogue.

and a lot of others.

 

And like Luckers said, BS stated specifically that there are two ways to destroy cuendillar. I'm guessing one is with the True Power like Rand did. Again I'm guessing that the second one is with the One Power with a weave with a similar effect as Mat's terangreal, to unmake the effect of the weave in the Iron pieces.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Outside all the things I previously mentioned...I wonder if it'll be, that one of the two yet revealed cuendillar destroying things, is the edge of a Gateway.

 

And if it doesn't, then what might happen - would the Gateway weave be interrupted, and would the cuendillar absorb said weaves. Or, would some whackiness ensue where we see an explosion, like with whats her face dissecting her gateway at the Kin farm. That bit comes from the assumption that cuendillar absorbs and becomes stronger when the power is channeled at it directly.

 

 

So, if you tossed a piece of heartstone onto the edge of a gateway, would it interrupt the totality of the weave forming that gateway, or would it end up creating a sudden localized gap, so to speak.

 

Would it interrupt the circuit, causing everything to just fizzle? Would it go kaboom Kin-farm style, with explosive feedback? Or would you have freshly sliced Cuendillar with scrambled eggs on the side.

 

____

 

If BS puts it out there that there's two things that can do the deed, than gosh darn it, he better put his money where his mouth is...Even if it does end up in the glossary.

[Kahsm]

Outside all the things I previously mentioned...I wonder if it'll be, that one of the two yet revealed cuendillar destroying things, is the edge of a Gateway.

 

And if it doesn't, then what might happen - would the Gateway weave be interrupted, and would the cuendillar absorb said weaves. Or, would some whackiness ensue where we see an explosion, like with whats her face dissecting her gateway at the Kin farm. That bit comes from the assumption that cuendillar absorbs and becomes stronger when the power is channeled at it directly.

 

 

So, if you tossed a piece of heartstone onto the edge of a gateway, would it interrupt the totality of the weave forming that gateway, or would it end up creating a sudden localized gap, so to speak.

 

Would it interrupt the circuit, causing everything to just fizzle? Would it go kaboom Kin-farm style, with explosive feedback? Or would you have freshly sliced Cuendillar with scrambled eggs on the side.

 

____

 

If BS puts it out there that there's two things that can do the deed, than gosh darn it, he better put his money where his mouth is...Even if it does end up in the glossary.

 

That question was asked and answered. Sadly nothing fun for an answer.

 

Q: What happens to a piece of heartstone if a gateway is opened across it?

RJ: Heartstone is pushed aside, gateway remains intact. (He appeared fairly amused by this one.)

 

So then thing of what would happen if they tried to open a gateway right on where Eggs made the heartstone chain on the Tar Valon bridge. Would it destroy the whole gatehouse trying to push the chain aside? I think the answer only considers small pieces.

[FarShainMael]

After the last of the "broken seals" was broken with Nynaeve and Elayne on their way to Salidar, a lot of other "prophetic" events have come to pass.

Cleansing of Saidin; "He will heal "wounds of madness".

VoG event; Essanik Cycle in the tGS after the Epilogue.

and a lot of others.

 

And like Luckers said, BS stated specifically that there are two ways to destroy cuendillar. I'm guessing one is with the True Power like Rand did. Again I'm guessing that the second one is with the One Power with a weave with a similar effect as Mat's terangreal, to unmake the effect of the weave in the Iron pieces.

 

Or Mat's foxhead itself!

[Mats Spare Hat]

Womp womp...baahh, that isn't fun at all!

[mackoY-kun]

Through out the series, there have been mention of picking out embroidery

Using the One Power is always referred to weaving this/that net etc.

It should also be possible to pick out a weaving of Heartstone.

[Turin Turambar]

Does anyone else think it would be funny if Egwene got everyone to convince Rand not to break the seals, he gives them to her, and the spontanenously break once in her possession? or they were already broken when they check on them?

[FarShainMael]

I would laugh like a drain..

[Lisa Campbell]

You sense the Dark One's touch through a breaking down Seal, because the Seal is breaking down - not because the Dark One caused the Seal to become broken down in the first place.

 

Fill a water balloon with water. Poke a hole in it. You can feel the water coming out, but the water didn't cause the hole.

 

Nynaeve feels the DO's evil, precisely because the Seal is breaking down as a result of Rands actions, the fulfilling of specific prophesy:

 

"With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death."

 

—fragment from The Prophecies of the Dragon

believed translated by N'Delia Basolaine

First Maid and Swordfast to Raidhen of Hol Cuchone

(circa 400 AB)"

 

 

Hills burn, Cairhein, Aiel, piercing spears, back through the Dragonwall...Events prophesied and displayed smack in the first pages, if not the very first page(!), of a book, tFoH, wherein the very events foretold occur, and then we're witness to one of the Seals breaking down, and then found to be broken, in the exact time-frame of said noted events happening.

 

It's not some "prophetic power" at work, there's no deus ex unknown force at work, as you put it Lacanos; We've seen it throughout the series: The Seals break when certain events happen, and Rand is at the heart of, and in fact is key to those events, which have been prophesized far before Rand's birth, and correlating exactly with significant events of which the Dragon Reborn is central.

 

I like this theory that it is momentus/prophecised events breaking the seals but I don't think it is limited to Rand alone. Mat and Perrin are also mentioned in the prophecies and they've had some pretty big moments too. Even things which seem small can have far reaching effects and they don't necessarily have to be done by the Taveren trio. Thinking along the lines of Healing Mat from the dagger in the Tower, bowl of winds, capturing Moghedian in Salidar, Healing Logain/Siuan/Leanne etc.. That's all I can think of at the moment.

[Kahsm]

You sense the Dark One's touch through a breaking down Seal, because the Seal is breaking down - not because the Dark One caused the Seal to become broken down in the first place.

 

Fill a water balloon with water. Poke a hole in it. You can feel the water coming out, but the water didn't cause the hole.

 

Nynaeve feels the DO's evil, precisely because the Seal is breaking down as a result of Rands actions, the fulfilling of specific prophesy:

 

"With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death."

 

—fragment from The Prophecies of the Dragon

believed translated by N'Delia Basolaine

First Maid and Swordfast to Raidhen of Hol Cuchone

(circa 400 AB)"

 

 

Hills burn, Cairhein, Aiel, piercing spears, back through the Dragonwall...Events prophesied and displayed smack in the first pages, if not the very first page(!), of a book, tFoH, wherein the very events foretold occur, and then we're witness to one of the Seals breaking down, and then found to be broken, in the exact time-frame of said noted events happening.

 

It's not some "prophetic power" at work, there's no deus ex unknown force at work, as you put it Lacanos; We've seen it throughout the series: The Seals break when certain events happen, and Rand is at the heart of, and in fact is key to those events, which have been prophesized far before Rand's birth, and correlating exactly with significant events of which the Dragon Reborn is central.

 

I like this theory that it is momentus/prophecised events breaking the seals but I don't think it is limited to Rand alone. Mat and Perrin are also mentioned in the prophecies and they've had some pretty big moments too. Even things which seem small can have far reaching effects and they don't necessarily have to be done by the Taveren trio. Thinking along the lines of Healing Mat from the dagger in the Tower, bowl of winds, capturing Moghedian in Salidar, Healing Logain/Siuan/Leanne etc.. That's all I can think of at the moment.

 

I like how you say "It's not some "prophetic power" at work, there's no deus ex unknown force at work"

 

But then turn right around and say "We've seen it through the serries: The Seals break when certain events happen"

 

That makes zero sense. Clearly you just think it's a DIFFERENT deus ex unknown "prophetic power".

 

Given that prophecy has no power, it's just stuff that's supposed to mark what's going on, and may or may not happen. I think the seals break because someone or something that is actually sentient is breaking them. It's not a doomsday clock. If they were actually created or sent by the wheel of time, I might buy in, but they are Aes Sedai creations, mortal made.

 

I don't disagree that they may be used as a literary device sorta doomsday clock, but that doesn't mean it had to be that way, it's just the way RJ told his story.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I had meant that 'prophetic power' wasn't a noun. As in, it's not a OP, or TP. Regardless, I'm not the one who coined the term.

 

And, I feel that given every case in which we've seen Seals & corresponding Disks, throughout the series, the concept of Rands actions being responsible effectively rules out the notion of Deus Ex. The rationale, being that it's not something contrived and unexpected, it's not something new because we see it right from the beginning in Book 1.

 

I mean how much would you need it explained to understand that every time a Seal breaks, is breaking down, has been broken... *jerks thumb towards Rand?

[Kahsm]

I had meant that 'prophetic power' wasn't a noun. As in, it's not a OP, or TP. Regardless, I'm not the one who coined the term.

 

And, I feel that given every case in which we've seen Seals & corresponding Disks, throughout the series, the concept of Rands actions being responsible effectively rules out the notion of Deus Ex. The rationale, being that it's not something contrived and unexpected, it's not something new because we see it right from the beginning in Book 1.

 

I mean how much would you need it explained to understand that every time a Seal breaks, is breaking down, has been broken... *jerks thumb towards Rand?

 

The first seal was already broken when they took it out of the chest, so it must have broke all by itself at the bottom of the pool of saidin. And by 'all by itself', I mean without any influence other than whatever force is messing with the seals. And Lan couldn't break one of the pieces with a dagger, so I doubt Loial shook the chest too hard while carrying it.

 

I personally think if you broke a seal (the real seals, in their abstract form) the disk could break. And if you break the disk, the seal will break. It works both ways. I assume it's the DO attacking the seals which is causing them to break/get fragile, though other possibilities exist (maybe the weaves are just fading?). Eventually he'll break through a seal and that causes a disk to break (like the first one at tEotW) or shit can happen in the physical world (yes, it may be pattern induced shit) that causes the actual disk seals to break which will unravel the actual seal (like the fight that causes the two in Falme to break).