Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

The main issue I have with Kiruna going into the battle as she did, is simply that she didn't bother to tell Perrin that she would have to do so. Which, considering Perrin was more or less in charge of the rescue party, is evidence of either great arrogance or great stupidity. Or both.

 

I think she thought that because Perrin forgot that she would be ineffective standing out of danger, that she decided that he was too stupid to decide anything for her and just did stuff without telling him.

 

I mean, would you tell someone you thought was an idiot your plans on the chance that their idiocy might screw stuff up? Not saying Perrin's an idiot. But you do have to see how Kiruna is thinking at that point in time.

[MasterAblar]

The main issue I have with Kiruna going into the battle as she did, is simply that she didn't bother to tell Perrin that she would have to do so. Which, considering Perrin was more or less in charge of the rescue party, is evidence of either great arrogance or great stupidity. Or both.

 

Also I'd point that the Aes Sedai had plenty of time to see the Wise Ones attacks coming because they were coming from a great distance. The Aes Sedai meanwhile were blasting away at troops directly in front of them, which means the Wise Ones had far less time to react.

 

As to your first point Kiruna was well aware that Perrin had spent a significant amount of time with Moiraine and that he knew about the being in danger thing. It seemed to me that Perrin was just miffed with her striding off without a word as if she was in charge. So what else is new with Aes Sedai? They always do what they want when they want.

 

2nd point I agree with you, the Aes Sedai had a time lapse advantage when attacking the Shaido force and defending against attack by the Wise Ones, which given the ratio of AS:WO, is still pretty impressive.

 

Well, since Perrin asked Kiruna why she acted as she did in the beginning of aCoS, I would say he was not aware. And apparently the plan was for Kiruna and the AS to stay where they were, so Kiruna should have been perfectly aware that Perrin did not know she would have to be in danger. What's more Perrin says that he "would eat his boots if they had not also been thinking they could reach Rand before anybody else". What Perrin was miffed about was that they apparently didn't care about the sodliers who died because they had to follow Kiruna and the AS into the midst of the battle.

 

Their performance was quite good. It's hard to say how good of course. Still their performance reflects on all AS, not just those of the green ajah.

[Suttree]

Look here is the thing, are there certain posters who will remain nameless that go overboard in their defense of Egwene and AS? Yes, undoubtedly. But something people need to take into account is that their posts are always reactionary.

 

There are no "Egwene Love" or "AS Rule" threads. However every day, posters repeatedly use slander and hyperbole to extol their biased view of how AS fit in to this world. Hate posts come through on the hour with absurd claims like Egwene is Forsaken like, gets sadistic pleasure from torturing her friends, is worse than Elaida, AS never leave the Tower or provide service, there are only a couple Greens that have even been involved in battle etc etc.

 

All of these most recent posts in this thread came from someone calling out the "whore Ajah" and when I gave multiple, perfectly legit from text examples of their prowess guess what happened. I was immediately called out as an AS apologist and accused of making the events "shine brighter" than in the text. When I then proved that wrong posters moved on to latching on to minute details and splitting hairs over terminology in an attempt to discredit(not you Piotreks, I enjoyed our discourse). I had one poster say I couldn't use "one" example to show the prowess of Greens(which I hadn't) and then turn right around and use "one" example in an attempt to show they couldn't fight...not sure if he saw the irony in that.

 

The bottom line is this, AS have fallen far from the AoL. People that don't like them have more than enough ammo without resorting to hyperbole to tear them down. Just at least try to be reasoned in how you judge them. Saying things like all Greens are worthless at war because the Seanchan beat in a midnight aerial raid a Forsaken string pulling, BA riddled, split(both WT and Ajahs), Byrne led army camped on their front door, Elaida as Amrylin, Fain influenced White Tower is just crazy. How could the AS possibly win given those circumstances? All in all you have to remember those so called "blind Egwene love" posts are only ever made in defense of equally ridiculous "anti Egwene/AS claims.

[MasterAblar]

The main issue I have with Kiruna going into the battle as she did, is simply that she didn't bother to tell Perrin that she would have to do so. Which, considering Perrin was more or less in charge of the rescue party, is evidence of either great arrogance or great stupidity. Or both.

 

I think she thought that because Perrin forgot that she would be ineffective standing out of danger, that she decided that he was too stupid to decide anything for her and just did stuff without telling him.

 

I mean, would you tell someone you thought was an idiot your plans on the chance that their idiocy might screw stuff up? Not saying Perrin's an idiot. But you do have to see how Kiruna is thinking at that point in time.

 

If the idiot is in charge of the whole rescue, then yes I think it would be best to tell him. To not do so is selfish because it puts at risk the lives of many other men, particularly those who have to stay near you. And Perrin did not forget, he just didn't know in the first place that she would be ineffective. Besides it's highly likely that Kiruna just wanted to be the one to get to Rand first.

[Revan Lives]

I do think it's sad exactly how far the Aes Sedai have fallen with regards to the writing in the series. From the very beginning, we are introduced to Moiraine, one of the most knowledgeable, compassionate, experienced Aes Sedai. She keeps many contacts throughout the world, is capable of fighting Shadowspawn, training people in the use of the One Power, and in general has the knowledge to back up her aloof, I-know-more-than-you do attitude. That's how all Aes Sedai were in the beginning, politically savvy, and very capable.

 

But ever since around LoC, the Aes Sedai have been humiliated or have fallen in power in every way. Instead of sticking with what the Aes Sedai we know were like (Moiraine, Siuan, Verin), every new Aes Sedai is arrogant and (mostly) clueless about the world. Elaida becomes psychotic in ruling the Tower, the Aes Sedai apparently forget how to fight in the Seanchan attack, hell, we even get lines like where upon hearing some sort of bad news (I can't remember when it happened, but it was in the rebel camp with a meeting of the Hall) one Aes Sedai actually vomits. Seriously, what's up with that?

 

Although we do get some great examples of Aes Sedai later on, like Cadsuane, Saerin, Samitsu, Pevara, etc, in general, most Aes Sedai are now incompetent, arrogant, and have no experience to back it up with. And it seems a little bit strange that these well-educated ladies who live for decades and decades longer than the average person are suddenly written to be incompetent in every way, and are shown up by anyone with a little common sense.

[RAbbott85]

I think they've been this way the whole time - in private. For the first few books the POV is mostly either one of the boys or one of the girls. The boys see the AS from the outside, only observing the facade that AS put on in public. The girls are as children, intimidated by the Aes Sedai show of composure and knowledge of the Power - I equate that to when I get a new job and everybody there seems so smart for the first couple of weeks ... then I learn the job and realize they're all idiots. I think the transition in POV, character development, and fissures in the Tower were all so skillfully placed that the change is a gradual, natural progression. Until the last couple of books. Don't get me started on TGS and ToM.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Thank you Suttree, I also enjoyed all our discussions even though in the last one I thought you misremembered some scenes and it turned out it was me who'd forgotten about some things. I tip my hat.

 

I think we (and both sides of the divide - "lovers" and "haters") have our points in discussing Aes Sedai. Main reason why I find it worthwile to talk about it is the thought how much better could the Aes Sedai stories have been if their potential from the first books had been properly utilized. When did it happen that the superwomen got turned into childish, helpess creatures? Where is the knowledge gathered in their quests, the high culture they should represent, experience and wisdom gained in long years of their lives, strong personal virtues which are after all tested in brutal fashion on admittance into the organization.

 

I can't but recall my experience with participation in recruitment process of the EU institutions (I'm still in the procedure, so I'm not negatively biased at all). The recruitement procedure is so incredibly long and complicated and the chances of eventually obtaining employment so small that it would seem that only geniuses get through to work in EU institutions. When you look at the quality of legislation etc. you wonder if it really is the case. The same applies to Aes Sedai - how can they be so dumb with the rigorous education and admission tests they employ? Does this system work at all?

[Skeeve the Great]

My 2 cents about Dumai's Wells and Shaido WO.

 

In Book 7 Prologue it shows WO didn't know many of the battle weaves. There is a scene in the Prologue were Shaido WO were staring at the attack by spears and watching AS reaction. They learn what AS do by looking at the weaves. There is a scene were Sevanna asked WO if they see what AS do with the weaves. The only weave we saw Shaido WO used before AS started is the fireball.

 

Another evidence is this:

She did not expect the Aes Sedai to go down easily, and they did not. Fireballs fell among the spears, turning cadin'sor-clad figures to torches, and lightnings struck from a clear sky, hurling men and earth into the air. The Wise Ones learned from what they saw, though, or perhaps they already knew and had hesitated before; most channeled so seldom, especially where anyone besides Wise Ones could see, that only another Wise One knew whether any given woman could. Whatever the reason, no sooner did lightning begin to fall among the Shaido spears than more struck toward the wagons.

 

As for Amys example of WO knowing the battle - let's not forget that she was Maiden. And it's rare among Aiel for Maiden to become WO. As for the rest WO - they don't know the battles. Chiefs won't allow Wise Ones to meddle in their affairs any more than Wise Ones allow chiefs to meddle in theirs.

[Sharaman]

Dumai's Wells was the first time ever that WO had taken part in battle.

[Luckers]

Dumai's Wells was the first time ever that WO had taken part in battle.

 

We don't know that for certain. I doubt they would have just stood aside during the Trolloc Wars--but other than that, yeah.

[Sharaman]

Dumai's Wells was the first time ever that WO had taken part in battle.

 

We don't know that for certain. I doubt they would have just stood aside during the Trolloc Wars--but other than that, yeah.

Indeed, the fireball and other stuff might be basic defence against Shadowspawn. (Avi uses it in Caemlyn and she was being taught it in TSR). What little else the Aiel WO knew at that time in terms of destructive weaves, they'd probably gleaned from their former damane apprentice.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

The main issue I have with Kiruna going into the battle as she did, is simply that she didn't bother to tell Perrin that she would have to do so. Which, considering Perrin was more or less in charge of the rescue party, is evidence of either great arrogance or great stupidity. Or both.

 

I think she thought that because Perrin forgot that she would be ineffective standing out of danger, that she decided that he was too stupid to decide anything for her and just did stuff without telling him.

 

I mean, would you tell someone you thought was an idiot your plans on the chance that their idiocy might screw stuff up? Not saying Perrin's an idiot. But you do have to see how Kiruna is thinking at that point in time.

 

If the idiot is in charge of the whole rescue, then yes I think it would be best to tell him. To not do so is selfish because it puts at risk the lives of many other men, particularly those who have to stay near you. And Perrin did not forget, he just didn't know in the first place that she would be ineffective. Besides it's highly likely that Kiruna just wanted to be the one to get to Rand first.

 

He knows about the first oath. He forgot what it entails.

[Hopefire]

Dumai's Wells was the first time ever that WO had taken part in battle.

 

We don't know that for certain. I doubt they would have just stood aside during the Trolloc Wars--but other than that, yeah.

Not necessarily. The Wise Ones are a group of people who remember the true history of the Aiel, and it seems to me that prior to Rand's venture into the Waste, they essentially lived like Age of Legends Aiel for the most part. They did no violence, and no violence was done to them. I don't think that it's outside the realm of possibility that they might not have taken part in battle even during the Trolloc Wars.

[Luckers]

Dumai's Wells was the first time ever that WO had taken part in battle.

 

We don't know that for certain. I doubt they would have just stood aside during the Trolloc Wars--but other than that, yeah.

Not necessarily. The Wise Ones are a group of people who remember the true history of the Aiel, and it seems to me that prior to Rand's venture into the Waste, they essentially lived like Age of Legends Aiel for the most part. They did no violence, and no violence was done to them. I don't think that it's outside the realm of possibility that they might not have taken part in battle even during the Trolloc Wars.

 

I doubt it, frankly. Wise Ones are quiet about their use of the Power, but they do use it. Not in interclan conflicts obviously--but beyond that, look at the Aiel crede. "Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath, to spit into Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day. To Shayol Ghoul itself."

 

Tell me a people who hold that crede wouldn't involve themselves in fighting shadowspawn.

 

And no, they didn't live under the Way of the Leaf, or even make gestures to the concept, despite being aware of it. They have their own code of honour, but them not fighting has more to do with the fact that Wise Ones exist to serve the Aiel, and Aiel usually only fight Aiel.

[XXX]

When did "know something" become "strong knowledge" ?

 

When the man who is the greatest general in the history of the world, who has seen every scenario/tactic and has lifetimes of battles built up in his head, makes the statement. You can split however many hairs on terminology that you want. The passage was plainly written to show that she knows military strategy. If you can provide any evidence that she(or any of the people mentioned in my examples) doesn't please do so.

 

No.."strong knowledge" is your spin on it just like how you used "stunned him with her knowledge" earlier. The text says that Mat thought she was not completely useless and had some knowledge. As Mat was comparing her to the usual AS standarda of 'completely useless" anything greater than that becomes "some knowledge".

[Kahsm]

When did "know something" become "strong knowledge" ?

 

When the man who is the greatest general in the history of the world, who has seen every scenario/tactic and has lifetimes of battles built up in his head, makes the statement. You can split however many hairs on terminology that you want. The passage was plainly written to show that she knows military strategy. If you can provide any evidence that she(or any of the people mentioned in my examples) doesn't please do so.

 

No.."strong knowledge" is your spin on it just like how you used "stunned him with her knowledge" earlier. The text says that Mat thought she was not completely useless and had some knowledge. As Mat was comparing her to the usual AS standarda of 'completely useless" anything greater than that becomes "some knowledge".

 

Stunned, and strong knowledge are probably going too far. But how many people has Mat complimented? The fact he considered it at all might be significant. You have no idea who he was comparing her to, possibly himself.

 

Kinda like when Lan tells Rand he might almost be a blademaster by now when they were training in the waste. Rand figured that from Lan that means he's probably already there, because compliments from Lan were so few and far between.

 

Also, when you know as much as Mat, everyone's going to look like a child. So while I wouldn't go as far as to say "Stunned", I do tend to see it as significant that he even bothered to mention it. Which would mean she's probably quite capable.

[XXX]

Mat's comparison is to "completely useless as usual"..pretty low bar won't you say?. Anything is better than "completely useless" .

 

Mat is very complimentary of many people in the band. But he does not consider them useless either..that particular compliment he applies to the AS.

[Suttree]

When did "know something" become "strong knowledge" ?

 

When the man who is the greatest general in the history of the world, who has seen every scenario/tactic and has lifetimes of battles built up in his head, makes the statement. You can split however many hairs on terminology that you want. The passage was plainly written to show that she knows military strategy. If you can provide any evidence that she(or any of the people mentioned in my examples) doesn't please do so.

 

No.."strong knowledge" is your spin on it just like how you used "stunned him with her knowledge" earlier. The text says that Mat thought she was not completely useless and had some knowledge. As Mat was comparing her to the usual AS standarda of 'completely useless" anything greater than that becomes "some knowledge".

 

As usual you are sorely mistaken about the actual text and the thread. I admitted in post once I read the quote that when I said "stunned" it had been some time since I read KoD and had it wrong. So no, plainly not trying to "spin" anything. As for the quote

 

She and Joline had kept trying to stick their noses into his planning, and so had Edesina to a lesser extent, until he chased them away. Aes Sedai thought they knew everything, and while Joline at least did know something of war, he had not needed advice.

 

Very clearly the quote says AS thought they knew everything, and although he hadn't needed the advice, in this instance Joline knew what she was taking about. Given the source that is strong praise indeed. As you can't provide the slightest bit of evidence to show any of my military examples are not valid, the point stands. The part that makes your post totally comedy is you don't even see the irony of accusing me of spin, and then trying to say Mat was comparing her to a "completely useless" standard in the same breath. Not sure why you keep quoting the phrase because it doesn't show up anywhere. As usual your post falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny, although none of us would expect anything different when it comes to a troll.

[MasterAblar]

Really, I think all Mat is saying is that she has some knowledge of war. Is she an incredible tactitian worthy of the Great Captains? No. Is she useless? No. She's not an expert but she's not a novice. She could follow a basic conversation on war without any problem.

[MasterAblar]

The main issue I have with Kiruna going into the battle as she did, is simply that she didn't bother to tell Perrin that she would have to do so. Which, considering Perrin was more or less in charge of the rescue party, is evidence of either great arrogance or great stupidity. Or both.

 

I think she thought that because Perrin forgot that she would be ineffective standing out of danger, that she decided that he was too stupid to decide anything for her and just did stuff without telling him.

 

I mean, would you tell someone you thought was an idiot your plans on the chance that their idiocy might screw stuff up? Not saying Perrin's an idiot. But you do have to see how Kiruna is thinking at that point in time.

 

If the idiot is in charge of the whole rescue, then yes I think it would be best to tell him. To not do so is selfish because it puts at risk the lives of many other men, particularly those who have to stay near you. And Perrin did not forget, he just didn't know in the first place that she would be ineffective. Besides it's highly likely that Kiruna just wanted to be the one to get to Rand first.

 

He knows about the first oath. He forgot what it entails.

 

Does it matter? Either way, he didn't mention anything about it when they planned for the attack, and so clearly Kiruna should tell him. It was stupid of her not to because it put the rescue at risk, it was arrogant because she didn't bother explaining things to Perrin (and when she did later on, her explanation is full of arrogance), and it's selfish because she very probably just wanted to be the first to get to Rand.

[XXX]

When did "know something" become "strong knowledge" ?

 

When the man who is the greatest general in the history of the world, who has seen every scenario/tactic and has lifetimes of battles built up in his head, makes the statement. You can split however many hairs on terminology that you want. The passage was plainly written to show that she knows military strategy. If you can provide any evidence that she(or any of the people mentioned in my examples) doesn't please do so.

 

No.."strong knowledge" is your spin on it just like how you used "stunned him with her knowledge" earlier. The text says that Mat thought she was not completely useless and had some knowledge. As Mat was comparing her to the usual AS standarda of 'completely useless" anything greater than that becomes "some knowledge".

 

As usual you are sorely mistaken about the actual text and the thread. I admitted in post once I read the quote that when I said "stunned" it had been some time since I read KoD and had it wrong. So no, plainly not trying to "spin" anything. As for the quote

 

She and Joline had kept trying to stick their noses into his planning, and so had Edesina to a lesser extent, until he chased them away. Aes Sedai thought they knew everything, and while Joline at least did know something of war, he had not needed advice.

 

Very clearly the quote says AS thought they knew everything, and although he hadn't needed the advice, in this instance Joline knew what she was taking about. Given the source that is strong praise indeed. As you can't provide the slightest bit of evidence to show any of my military examples are not valid, the point stands. The part that makes your post totally comedy is you don't even see the irony of accusing me of spin, and then trying to say Mat was comparing her to a "completely useless" standard in the same breath. Not sure why you keep quoting the phrase because it doesn't show up anywhere. As usual your post falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny, although none of us would expect anything different when it comes to a troll.

 

Sure I am the troll...just like how Mat was "stunned" by Joline's brilliance.

[Suttree]

When did "know something" become "strong knowledge" ?

 

When the man who is the greatest general in the history of the world, who has seen every scenario/tactic and has lifetimes of battles built up in his head, makes the statement. You can split however many hairs on terminology that you want. The passage was plainly written to show that she knows military strategy. If you can provide any evidence that she(or any of the people mentioned in my examples) doesn't please do so.

 

No.."strong knowledge" is your spin on it just like how you used "stunned him with her knowledge" earlier. The text says that Mat thought she was not completely useless and had some knowledge. As Mat was comparing her to the usual AS standarda of 'completely useless" anything greater than that becomes "some knowledge".

 

As usual you are sorely mistaken about the actual text and the thread. I admitted in post once I read the quote that when I said "stunned" it had been some time since I read KoD and had it wrong. So no, plainly not trying to "spin" anything. As for the quote

 

She and Joline had kept trying to stick their noses into his planning, and so had Edesina to a lesser extent, until he chased them away. Aes Sedai thought they knew everything, and while Joline at least did know something of war, he had not needed advice.

 

Very clearly the quote says AS thought they knew everything, and although he hadn't needed the advice, in this instance Joline knew what she was taking about. Given the source that is strong praise indeed. As you can't provide the slightest bit of evidence to show any of my military examples are not valid, the point stands. The part that makes your post totally comedy is you don't even see the irony of accusing me of spin, and then trying to say Mat was comparing her to a "completely useless" standard in the same breath. Not sure why you keep quoting the phrase because it doesn't show up anywhere. As usual your post falls apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny, although none of us would expect anything different when it comes to a troll.

 

Sure I am the troll...just like how Mat was "stunned" by Joline's brilliance.

 

Sigh.

 

Surely you can see how in trying to accuse me of exaggeration, it's counter productive for you to actually include the quote where I admitted it had been some time since I read KoD and had the "stunned" part wrong?

 

On the flip side trolls often stick to creating straw men, splitting hairs over terminology, and making things up as they don't actually have anything to counter a valid point with. In this case you have been unable to give any evidence(for this or any of the other examples I gave) to counter the fact that it was written to show she knows military tactics. In addition you have made up a phrase("completely useless as usual") out of thin air and quoted it in multiple responses as if it actually comes from the text in Mats pov and he is using it as a frame of reference. Not the worst thing I have seen the x rated troll post on these boards, but surely the label fits.

[Skeeve the Great]

What a comedy! "did know something of war" somehow a praise of the briliance?! Hahahahaha! Sure, whay not! That means I'm f..king Guderian. What a joke!...

[Suttree]

What a comedy! "did know something of war" somehow a praise of the briliance?! Hahahahaha! Sure, whay not! That means I'm f..king Guderian. What a joke!...

 

Eh...most people got my original point. I was countering someone saying Greens had failed and no longer were skilled in these matters. Brilliance not necessarily, but the greatest general in history of the world admitting she knows what she is about surely speaks highly for her knowledge? More importantly it was merely one example of many showing things that indicate what Greens can do.

[Skeeve the Great]

 

Eh...most people got my original point. I was countering someone saying Greens had failed and no longer were skilled in these matters. Brilliance not necessarily, but the greatest general in history of the world admitting she knows what she is about surely speaks highly for her knowledge?

 

No, it doesn't. It shows that even such useless know-everything group of women read books sometimes. Surely Green would've read all available books about battles. It doesn't mean they are experts. I means they know something about the war. Well, maybe Cadsuane knows more, I don't know. But the only time we see Greens fight a battle (not simple skirmish) is when Seanchan attacked. And what we see? Complete failure. And AS were lead by the supposedly greatest Green, which was supposed to lead the whole Tower and the free world against the Dark in the last battle. Total joke!

 

More importantly it was merely one example of many showing things that indicate what Greens can do.

 

Please enlighten us about other examples what Greens can do. The Cleansing does not count. I've already half ready to give you the point about Cadsuane's ability.